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Community Update - December Balance Changes - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
259 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next All
engesser1
Profile Blog Joined December 2016
264 Posts
December 10 2017 05:22 GMT
#181
I think, B team, they are confused/stumped and don't know what they want next. On the other hand, the community saying a lot of. Here's still a lot of discontent. Was there a need for a patch 4.0 at all? Maybe we need to consider that it was only experience and we should roll back?
Maru, he is the reason why i'm still playing and watching sc2
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16700 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-10 06:08:31
December 10 2017 05:41 GMT
#182
i like patch 4.0. it lowered the amount of air-to-ground attack options Terran has. i like the terran changes a lot. i like the initial changes to Protoss that included a stronger Stalker along with the Shield Battery as a defensive structure. getting rid of the mothership core was a gutsy move and the right move.

i think this will be the last year they'll make a giant balance patch.

here is the BlizzCon 2017 SC2 Panel.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Mahanaim
Profile Joined December 2012
Korea (South)1002 Posts
December 10 2017 07:58 GMT
#183
Thanks for adding the polls again. Good to see how the community thinks about these proposals.
Celebrating Starcraft since... a long time ago.
egrimm
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland1199 Posts
December 10 2017 09:15 GMT
#184
On December 10 2017 09:55 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2017 09:42 FrkFrJss wrote:
On December 10 2017 08:29 youngjiddle wrote:


In PvZ I would already secure taking my third with a mothership, or map control with oracles, but with two huge nerfs (oracles and removal of the momma core) and the stalker/shieldbattery combo being nerfed (stalker damage down again, shield battery cost up) those midgame attacks by zerg are going to be scarier than ever. After these changes I am just gonna two base allin unless if I learn a build soon that works.


Just to touch on the Shield batteries, they only cost 25 minerals more. You can put other units with the SBs other than just stalkers. For the cost of two cannons, you can put down three shield batteries. They are still really, really strong when you use them correctly.


I don't disagree, shield batteries are strong. But I am making a comparison based on current winrates (with the current shield battery cost), and the fact that the winrate could get worse than how bad they are right now with a direct nerf to them.

Another thing, shield batteries are not as helpful vs. crazy burst damage like the baneling. Ling/bane/hydra was already a problem for protoss players when taking a third throughout the end of the year, arguably causing the mass oracle meta and oracle opening meta (which is now nerfed also).


This is exactly my feelings of pre and post patch PvZ.
I did okeyish with classic chargelot immo archon into storm occasionally instantly dying to banes.
Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.
sOs TY PartinG
xelnaga_empire
Profile Joined March 2012
627 Posts
December 10 2017 09:20 GMT
#185
On December 10 2017 02:20 jpg06051992 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2017 19:08 Xamo wrote:
On December 08 2017 22:04 Liquid`Ret wrote:
This balance designer overdoes things.

Triple infestor nerf.

Now Protoss being nerfed x3.

Terran just got ghosts buffed a while ago - now protoss is getting their strenght tuned down and still widow mines are changed as well?

Constantly things are going too far in one direction.

I completely agree with this. The chrono nerf was the only one required for Protoss right now. The others should wait until the meta settles down again.


Disagree, Stalkers were overpowered vs. Marines and Chrono was overpowered in general, both nerfs are highly appropriate for the state of the game, Protoss is very strong right now vs. Terran and these balance changes clearly are targeted to giving Terrans some breathing room in the early game against Protoss openings.



Yup, agreed. The stalker nerf and the chrono nerf both need to go through for PvsT to be balanced. Right now, it's too easy to win as Protoss.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
December 10 2017 09:59 GMT
#186
On December 10 2017 18:15 egrimm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2017 09:55 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 10 2017 09:42 FrkFrJss wrote:
On December 10 2017 08:29 youngjiddle wrote:


In PvZ I would already secure taking my third with a mothership, or map control with oracles, but with two huge nerfs (oracles and removal of the momma core) and the stalker/shieldbattery combo being nerfed (stalker damage down again, shield battery cost up) those midgame attacks by zerg are going to be scarier than ever. After these changes I am just gonna two base allin unless if I learn a build soon that works.


Just to touch on the Shield batteries, they only cost 25 minerals more. You can put other units with the SBs other than just stalkers. For the cost of two cannons, you can put down three shield batteries. They are still really, really strong when you use them correctly.


I don't disagree, shield batteries are strong. But I am making a comparison based on current winrates (with the current shield battery cost), and the fact that the winrate could get worse than how bad they are right now with a direct nerf to them.

Another thing, shield batteries are not as helpful vs. crazy burst damage like the baneling. Ling/bane/hydra was already a problem for protoss players when taking a third throughout the end of the year, arguably causing the mass oracle meta and oracle opening meta (which is now nerfed also).


This is exactly my feelings of pre and post patch PvZ.
I did okeyish with classic chargelot immo archon into storm occasionally instantly dying to banes.
Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.

make a collossus
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
egrimm
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland1199 Posts
December 10 2017 12:14 GMT
#187
On December 10 2017 18:59 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2017 18:15 egrimm wrote:
On December 10 2017 09:55 youngjiddle wrote:
On December 10 2017 09:42 FrkFrJss wrote:
On December 10 2017 08:29 youngjiddle wrote:


In PvZ I would already secure taking my third with a mothership, or map control with oracles, but with two huge nerfs (oracles and removal of the momma core) and the stalker/shieldbattery combo being nerfed (stalker damage down again, shield battery cost up) those midgame attacks by zerg are going to be scarier than ever. After these changes I am just gonna two base allin unless if I learn a build soon that works.


Just to touch on the Shield batteries, they only cost 25 minerals more. You can put other units with the SBs other than just stalkers. For the cost of two cannons, you can put down three shield batteries. They are still really, really strong when you use them correctly.


I don't disagree, shield batteries are strong. But I am making a comparison based on current winrates (with the current shield battery cost), and the fact that the winrate could get worse than how bad they are right now with a direct nerf to them.

Another thing, shield batteries are not as helpful vs. crazy burst damage like the baneling. Ling/bane/hydra was already a problem for protoss players when taking a third throughout the end of the year, arguably causing the mass oracle meta and oracle opening meta (which is now nerfed also).


This is exactly my feelings of pre and post patch PvZ.
I did okeyish with classic chargelot immo archon into storm occasionally instantly dying to banes.
Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.

make a collossus


Yeah I'm trying to make it work since the patch got out. Colossus thou is not a remedium to everything. Thing is that I usually get behind because I get my 3rd delayed which leads to delayed 3 Colo timing which then gets crushed as Zerg buys enough time for lurkers as they destroy stalker Colo balls.
Is other words Colo is great vs LBH compositions but it doesn't help in getting 3rd base fast and also P is on a timer due to lurkers.


sOs TY PartinG
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
December 10 2017 14:19 GMT
#188
The polls should have a "not the right change" option
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
December 10 2017 14:45 GMT
#189
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
leublix
Profile Joined May 2017
493 Posts
December 10 2017 14:50 GMT
#190

Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.

Mass oracle was pretty boring though.
Personally the option of getting colossi to stomp the whole hydra/ling/bane is nice.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
December 10 2017 15:00 GMT
#191
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-10 15:16:17
December 10 2017 15:15 GMT
#192
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

On December 10 2017 23:50 leublix wrote:
Show nested quote +

Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.

Mass oracle was pretty boring though.
Personally the option of getting colossi to stomp the whole hydra/ling/bane is nice.

I think Collossus is much more boring than mass oracles
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-10 15:35:45
December 10 2017 15:35 GMT
#193
On December 11 2017 00:15 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

Do we still file it under surprise when it works in 3 separate games and TY made no effort to hide it?
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
December 10 2017 16:21 GMT
#194
On December 11 2017 00:35 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2017 00:15 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

Do we still file it under surprise when it works in 3 separate games and TY made no effort to hide it?

Oh I only caught 1 game.
But in theory fungal should counter that strategy pretty hard.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
December 10 2017 16:28 GMT
#195
On December 11 2017 00:35 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2017 00:15 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

Do we still file it under surprise when it works in 3 separate games and TY made no effort to hide it?



Gotta love when people want to make their balance arguments on "well didn't you see that one pro-gamer beat this other one ?? Clearly if there was imbalance it would be impossible for a member of the under-powered race to win any games, ever. Considering Dark has chronically struggled vs. Mech - where as EU zergs and finally some Kr zergs catching up have figured it out - this is irrelevant. Tell me more about how "mech is the answer" for Tvz please.
EESC2_Cloud
Profile Joined December 2017
1 Post
December 10 2017 16:53 GMT
#196
Hey fam, this is just too much.. I agree some changes are needed, but all at once? It's crazy..
I think blizzard should step back a little with these changes, there is no way.. When liberator was so strong, blizzard buff queen and spores (no nerf lib), and now that stalkers can be a threat, u just nerf them to the ground? That is not objective at all, "no nerf way" but hey, its protoss, in this case nerf them all..
And btw, zerg is so strong atm, and 0 changes??? I'm impressed..
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
December 10 2017 16:58 GMT
#197
On December 11 2017 01:28 DomeGetta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2017 00:35 Elentos wrote:
On December 11 2017 00:15 Charoisaur wrote:
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

Do we still file it under surprise when it works in 3 separate games and TY made no effort to hide it?



Gotta love when people want to make their balance arguments on "well didn't you see that one pro-gamer beat this other one ?? Clearly if there was imbalance it would be impossible for a member of the under-powered race to win any games, ever. Considering Dark has chronically struggled vs. Mech - where as EU zergs and finally some Kr zergs catching up have figured it out - this is irrelevant. Tell me more about how "mech is the answer" for Tvz please.

Gotta love when people from a parallel universe where that bold part is true try to tell you what your post means.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Nars_
Profile Joined February 2016
31 Posts
December 10 2017 19:12 GMT
#198
So, we're back to the state from couple months ago. Such progress.
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
December 10 2017 19:18 GMT
#199
On December 11 2017 04:12 Nars_ wrote:
So, we're back to the state from couple months ago. Such progress.

Bingo.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-10 20:17:05
December 10 2017 20:11 GMT
#200
On December 11 2017 00:15 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2017 00:00 Ej_ wrote:
On December 10 2017 23:45 shadymmj wrote:
they should revert the raven change. it's a total failure. terran needs ravens to fight against viper/BL/infestor from what i see.

TY beat Dark with mass thors and widow mines just today

yes but Dark got surprised by the fact TY had wms in his medivacs. If he had known this he would have just made infestors and fungaled the medivacs.

Show nested quote +
On December 10 2017 23:50 leublix wrote:

Then I switched into mass Oracle and suddenly PvZ was sooo much easier mainly due to map control.
Now I feel it is a bit harder to control the map and take 3rd uninterrupted so I'm worried about these changes.

Mass oracle was pretty boring though.
Personally the option of getting colossi to stomp the whole hydra/ling/bane is nice.

I think Collossus is much more boring than mass oracles


On the plus side the existence of the colossus means that zerg doesn't go ling/bane/hydra every game anymore and also goes for stuff like ling/bane/ravager.

The problem with ZvP right now is that ling floods and ling drops are very good at doing damage to Protoss early on, or at the very least delay when the third can be taken, which means zerg is in a strong position going into the midgame. I don't think it needs to be addressed immediately, but it will need to eventually if things stay the same. Maybe a dropperlord nerf will be in order.
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