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On September 09 2017 10:35 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
Blizz should take this major patch as opportunity to rework/change abusive units and unit interactions.
Nobody enjoys playing vs:
- 10 mineral interceptors
- Burrow fungals
- 7 armor ultras
- Liberators
- Oracles
- Swarmhosts
- Blink BC's
- Tier 1 droplord and T1 ravagers
- adept shades
- reaper grenades
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..... etc.
Without going into detailed argumentation I can agree with most things on the list. Personally I lack experience with 7 armor ultras, dropperlords, ravagers and swamrhosts.
He is talking about reworking those units/interactions not removing everything...
To name an example:
It would make sense if burrowed fungals required a casting time, similar to that of the ghosts nuke and snipe. Since it is an invisible units and can't be even spotted when it's not moving.
What I am saying is, these are indeed some of the most annoying things encountered by playing and surely there are ways to make these interactions more fun.
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Personally, I would love if they buffed factory units versus Protoss, because I hate being unable to brainlessly spam hellion/siege tank/thor/viking only versus Zerg and Terran.
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On September 21 2017 19:57 Ej_ wrote:
Personally, I would love if they buffed factory units versus Protoss, because I hate being unable to brainlessly spam hellion/siege tank/thor/viking only versus Zerg and Terran.
Mech will never be viable against protoss because the race itself is a counter to it. Airtoss is too strong, warp prism can instantly outposition you as their army appear where they want, immortals can shower under mech units fire.
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Airtoss became pretty much standard vs Zerg, and still no news on any zerg antiair buff to compensate the fungal nerf.
Infested marines are the worst, are we to expect protoss to sit on top of timed life units? And how is a light unit expected to counter oracles and carriers?
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On September 18 2017 15:00 Fatam wrote:
So thinking about it a bit, I think putting Restoration Field back on the Nexus but making it a fairly large range (and making sure it's powerful enough to make the difference it needs to) is good - probably much better than shield battery.
It is difficult to use offensively that way (unlike shield battery), and that allows you to put a larger range on it which is huge: it helps with all the things protoss can struggle with (multi-pronged drops, especially in the main, zerglings getting in, early cheeses (now that overcharge is gone), etc.)
Also making it on the nexus prevents you from building a billion shield batteries, which is what Blizz was concerned about in the post (they wanted something that defends in the early game but isn't too strong in the mid/late game).
Because balancing nexus energy when it powers both the protoss defense and the protoss economy is extremely hard. The closest example would be the zerg larva mechanic. And people have complained about the absolute need to harass zerg opponents to prevent their economy from snowballing. Do we really want a second race to be that way as well?
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19533 Posts
On September 21 2017 19:57 Ej_ wrote:
Personally, I would love if they buffed factory units versus Protoss, because I hate being unable to brainlessly spam hellion/siege tank/thor/viking only versus Zerg and Terran.
Yeah "brainlessly" spamming bio is way better :D
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Am I the only one who thinks ghosts would be more useful without the default cloak but being able to EMP straight away? The cloak isn't why you get them, the EMP is (or snipe if against zerg). It's annoying to try to rush out ghosts against toss with templar, only for them to be useless for a short while
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Do Blizzard give us some feedback about the duration of a game with 12 workers ? Is it shorter at least ?
I m really sad to see professionals as Blizzard ask you to hurry up...
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On September 22 2017 01:57 Fango wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks ghosts would be more useful without the default cloak but being able to EMP straight away? The cloak isn't why you get them, the EMP is (or snipe if against zerg). It's annoying to try to rush out ghosts against toss with templar, only for them to be useless for a short while
Yes, I've argued that already since the change was proposed. I think it's definitely a nerf.
Especially considering cloak without the energy upgrade is pretty useless because they start with 50 energy and once they cloak have 25.
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I really like this update, definitely seems to be heading in a sane direction and eliminating a couple more obvious flaws.
A couple of things that might need to be addressed
1. Scrambler Missile range being increased to 9, so it would be the same as Feedback. Otherwise HTs will shut down Ravens pretty hard.
2. The locked observation mode for Observers/Overseers just seems like a stupid F2 crutch. Same with HT attack.
3. Fungal's increased radius might cause problems when paired with banes/ultras, since neither really cares about locked vs severely slowed.
4. Disruptor basically trash now.
5. Shield Battery rushes? Maybe have a cyber core requirement.
6. Terran basically has no significant changes. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
But on the whole, the 2017 version of 3.8 seems like a big net positive.
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On September 22 2017 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 01:57 Fango wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks ghosts would be more useful without the default cloak but being able to EMP straight away? The cloak isn't why you get them, the EMP is (or snipe if against zerg). It's annoying to try to rush out ghosts against toss with templar, only for them to be useless for a short while Yes, I've argued that already since the change was proposed. I think it's definitely a nerf. Especially considering cloak without the energy upgrade is pretty useless because they start with 50 energy and once they cloak have 25.
Exactly. People think that having the auto cloak research that it's a buff. Except the cloak isn't what makes them a useful unit.
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On September 22 2017 04:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 04:26 Charoisaur wrote:On September 22 2017 01:57 Fango wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks ghosts would be more useful without the default cloak but being able to EMP straight away? The cloak isn't why you get them, the EMP is (or snipe if against zerg). It's annoying to try to rush out ghosts against toss with templar, only for them to be useless for a short while Yes, I've argued that already since the change was proposed. I think it's definitely a nerf. Especially considering cloak without the energy upgrade is pretty useless because they start with 50 energy and once they cloak have 25. Exactly. People think that having the auto cloak research that it's a buff. Except the cloak isn't what makes them a useful unit.
Having a native cloack means you can use ghost builds as openings, which is awesome.
Making the snipe more reliable (not loosing energy when the shot is cancelled or isn't fired), having native cloack and rebalancing the ghost's cost to 75/150 would make it a usefull late game caster, but also a fun way to open games.
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Maybe it's not the good thread to ask it but, whywhy has the Hydra Bane meta arrived ( or popularized by Solar on frost if i remember well ) so late in TvZ??
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On September 22 2017 04:28 pvsnp wrote:
I really like this update, definitely seems to be heading in a sane direction and eliminating a couple more obvious flaws.
A couple of things that might need to be addressed
1. Scrambler Missile range being increased to 9, so it would be the same as Feedback. Otherwise HTs will shut down Ravens pretty hard.
2. The locked observation mode for Observers/Overseers just seems like a stupid F2 crutch. Same with HT attack.
3. Fungal's increased radius might cause problems when paired with banes/ultras, since neither really cares about locked vs severely slowed.
4. Disruptor basically trash now.
5. Shield Battery rushes? Maybe have a cyber core requirement.
6. Terran basically has no significant changes. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
But on the whole, the 2017 version of 3.8 seems like a big net positive.
I would not consider the raven being gutted with no late game compensation for meching Terran in TvZ an insignificant change.
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On October 06 2017 10:06 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 04:28 pvsnp wrote:
I really like this update, definitely seems to be heading in a sane direction and eliminating a couple more obvious flaws.
A couple of things that might need to be addressed
1. Scrambler Missile range being increased to 9, so it would be the same as Feedback. Otherwise HTs will shut down Ravens pretty hard.
2. The locked observation mode for Observers/Overseers just seems like a stupid F2 crutch. Same with HT attack.
3. Fungal's increased radius might cause problems when paired with banes/ultras, since neither really cares about locked vs severely slowed.
4. Disruptor basically trash now.
5. Shield Battery rushes? Maybe have a cyber core requirement.
6. Terran basically has no significant changes. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
But on the whole, the 2017 version of 3.8 seems like a big net positive. I would not consider the raven being gutted with no late game compensation for meching Terran in TvZ an insignificant change.
The main issues with the raven change are that
1) mass raven was the only reliable late game comp for terran mech in TvZ (sadly)
2) PDD was the only thing preventing tempests from singlehandedly countering the entirety of mech styles just like in HOTS
I'm all for making the game less about OP casters, but the viper needs a nerf against mech if the raven is nerfed too. There was an uneasy balance between abducts and parabomb versus PDD and seeker missile, inducing a stupid meta where terran couldn't move out of turret cover while zerg could see his entire army blow up in seconds of inattention.
However i fear that vipers will now reign free since adbucts and parabomb won't be met with equally broken spells.
Also terran mech will need answers to tempest strategies. The healing drone won't help against the burst damage of the tempest, scrambler missile won't help since it's 8 range against 15, the cyclone AA is 7 range against 10, and thors are generally terrible against tempests because tempests can stack but thors can't.
If the viper was nerfed (abduct unable to target ground massive for exemple) and the cyclone given 9-10 lock on range with the upgrad to be able to lock onto tempests without running to their deaths, things could work in the late game for terran mech. But such a massive raven late-game power nerf without compensation will make things pretty much impossible for terran mech.
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They should just make the Raven like the medivac but for mech. And also add an upgrade that allows mech units to trade a portion of their hp for an increase in attack and movement speed. And make cyclones shoot air the same way they shoot ground...
There we go. Mech fixed.
(Obviously sarcasm)
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Mech is in a good place right now. Mech in TvZ and TvT. I see very stable games of mech versus Zerg. TvP is very different. The marine is stronger in TvP than any other matchup, and I don't think that will ever change just because of the fundemental nature of the units.
I hate the Raven and Ghost changes. Starting with cloak is not a good trade-off for putting at 50 starting energy over 75 starting energy, especially if they want to support Ghosts as a rare but reasonable opener for Terran. Right now you could actually rush a Ghost out and EMP Oracle play if you wanted to, like old old WoL ghost-stim timings and just punish stargate Protoss. Raven also has good use as a first unit from Starport in TvT, Autoturret and PDD are very synergistic with early TvT armies, and they retain just enough use into middle and late game that if you keep them alive they are worth it.
I would rather they just remove the widow mine than make this change. I can't even fathom how they got to the idea to make this change. I might actually win more games with it removed as I'm prevented from accidentally making the unit. Yes, I avoid widow mine use even against Oracle, which is such a slopped together response of balancing the Oracle by hoping Protoss will fly over a mine anyway.
The locked observation mode for Observers and Overseers is the silliest change. Making the game easier for F2 players? HT attack? I don't even.
The only changes I'm really in support of is the Protoss Stalker change, the swarm host speed nerf that's massively overdue, and the attempt at removed the Protoss hero unit. Otherwise all of their changes seem to be in the wrong place, trying for the wrong things.
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On October 06 2017 16:02 Mnijykmirl wrote:
The locked observation mode for Observers and Overseers is the silliest change. Making the game easier for F2 players? HT attack? I don't even.
Its just stupid, rewarding f2 players. the locked mode/siege mode is "okay" for lower league players etc but ADDING 25% extra vision is just double the reward for playing with F2. locked mode should reduce 25% vision and it will be acceptable.
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On October 07 2017 02:44 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2017 16:02 Mnijykmirl wrote:
The locked observation mode for Observers and Overseers is the silliest change. Making the game easier for F2 players? HT attack? I don't even.
Its just stupid, rewarding f2 players. the locked mode/siege mode is "okay" for lower league players etc but ADDING 25% extra vision is just double the reward for playing with F2. locked mode should reduce 25% vision and it will be acceptable.
Rewarding F2 use is idiotic. High templar auto attack is a disgrace, just like observer/overseer "surveilliance mode".
At some point blizzard needs to look back and consider that some armies ARE MEANT to be hard to use. If bio/ghost/vikings was easy to use to the point where you could F2 Amove into the opponent's army, the balance of every matchup against terrran would be broken.
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EPT
