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On April 01 2017 21:13 icesergio wrote:
Agree with mostly everything except the adept nerf
We want to nerf adepts! To which i would reply "awesome, then what?"
Exactly my question blizzard...
You nerf adepts, which are pretty cancerous (like widow mines, liberators ecc) but give us Protoss players what in the early/mid game?
Want a suggestion: give stalkers more damage vs armored and remove the armored tag. That would stop them from literally melting against siege tanks and voids without needing to reallocate void ray damage.
Give the Zealot a flat speed buff or give them the effect of +1 upgrade from the beginning (2 swipes to kill zerglings instead of 3, with 1 going to waste because of the nature of the attack)
Make adepts an OPTION, not a requirement to keep up against your opponent.
Two cents from a Dia player...
Why not simply change the Void Ray though? It's not a core unit and therefore has way less interactions with other units than Stalkers. There's much less to worry about when changing its stats.
Personally, I'd really like the old charge-up mechanic back. It was unique and required much more skill. On top of that, blink stalkers traded much better against Void Rays back then iirc.
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inb4 DK comes out and says ' LOL did you REALLY think we'd buff mech and fix Adepts? It was just an early April Fools joke hahahah suckers!'.
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On April 01 2017 22:31 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 17:39 AnossSc2 wrote:Blizzard... i know my english is bad.. but stop act like you listen the community. The community is gone, you listen people who are still playing Starcraft 2, not the community who still love this game but don't want to play it. Cause the game is so fast.. Did you try to play Starcraft 2 without Hotkey like a beginner ? you can't perform a simple 1 1 1... Can you please try to play this game like you never played it? I love Starcraft, i spend 7 years on it, i made a lot of tutorial on Youtube, i was host on Iron Squid / Nation War, but if i had discover this game with LOTV, i would probably never start this game. + Show Spoiler +Cause LOTV is a game only for player who spend 3 years on Wol/Hots, at this time we had time for learning the hotkey, the unit, and improve apm. And game was fun even if you don't have the knowledge, cause it was slow, and you had time to improve. Now even if you want play it's only frustrated game for beginner player.
How many of you have friends who want play "for fun" some games of Overwatch, LOL, H1Z1 but always says no when you start to say : Let's play a Starcraft 2 4v4 it can be fun ! no it's not fun anymore, it's boring macro and Oracle at 4 min and no.. i don't want let's go LOL bro.
So please Blizzard, even BroodWar is more easy to start than LOTV, you can 6 pool and play, you can 2 gate Zealot and play on BGH. Go back to 6 harvesters start. And stop acting like we don't have time, Starcraft is not : Easy to learn, hard to masteries, it's hard to learn, hard to masteries, go back on 6 harvesters and you will have a game : Easy to learn, hard to masteries.
Trust me, i can explain you in French by so many ways why the 12 harvesters killed the game... we can't make tutorial ( and nobody does...) we can't argue why it's better to play with 12 harvesters, it's just we gain time, and lost all the beginner player so no viewers on Twitch, no prize on competition, just to gain 4 min each game.. Why David ? all the people who love Starcraft work, they don't have time to perform until 150 apm if game is not fun, if a simple 1 1 1 is 1 month of try harding ( try to do it without knowledge of hotkey, supply positioning, unit.. like a beginner who want try this game not like the guys who knows perfectly the game since 5 years) with 6 harvesters, all can play, and people who have knowledge/apm can make the difference until 7 min mark... so why you did that ? Pro player want a hard game ? good, BWHD is coming ! but Starcraft 2 need to be like LOL, Hearthstone, H1Z1, a playable game for everybody. Master will always stay Master even with 6 harvesters you know that. So why...
I know balance is important, but Thor or not, people will not play again this game, the problem is the game is too fast, this should be the first priority of David Kim : Why people don't play Starcraft 2 anymore ? Poulet, i don't know why you hate this so much. SC2 was'nt more easy to me back to HotS, i think LotV did great at making more skirmishes (as a P though) and reducing the macro part of the game which is also what put a lot of people off.,i feel like there could be a bit more minerals on bases, but that's all. If anything, liberator/disruptor/Lurker make the game more hard for beginner. One thing i would argue for is more tools that would allow for less apm macro-wise : Auto-Train (idk why ppl hate this so much, actually i'm not even sure it would make the game that more easy) Macro pylon/warpprism so you can warp directly on them without looking at them (&auto train) by pressing 2 times the unit hotkey. Auto Larva/mule Ingame official HUD for BO,like in HoN a moba i love : Anyone can post a build, there is the official one, and you can up/downvote & IG you can select one so you can see what you have to buy.Not an external tool to download. Supply Block Warning Pre-configured hotkey setup, i press one hotkey and it marks all my army but my warpprism/HT/Disru on One, my Warpprism on 2, HT/disru on 3 ,all robo on 4 all Star on 5 nexus on 7 (i'm very happy with that warpgate hotkey as most protoss i guess) Allow to queue whatever you want, even if you can't do it right now (Terrans Adds, unavaible units & upgrades..) I also don't understand that in all the beta they never tried to make units A LITTLE MORE big (except the stalker, a possible buff for me would be to decrease a bit it's size..), or decreasing A BIT dps/HP ratio (although that is really hard to setup) But too late for all of this anyways. Cheers, i hope i see you soon on OG.
Please never do this (not like it's ever going to happen). The game is fun because it is hard. Don't make macro shitty by allowing auto production or warning players of supply blocks.
Also if you think making stalkers smaller will buff them, you understand nothing about the game.
Other RTS where macro is easy have no playerbase because you can't be better than another player through your mechanics. Therefore everyone plays the same exact styles and the level difference between a gold and a diamond is so small it's almost a 50/50 chance to win.
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On April 01 2017 18:59 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 18:21 MockHamill wrote:
For Protoss I think Carriers and Adepts need a nerf while Stalkers needs a buff.
Each damage uppgrade for Stalkers should add 2 damage instead of 1. That way stalkers become better mid and late game without being too strong early game. Yeah, let's bring back mass +2 blink stalkers back in PvZ, that was so enjoyable in HoTS.
Back in the day it was two strong, but times have changed and the Hydralisk is far stronger then it used to be, as is Zergs early and mid game macro capabilities, Blink Stalker plays will not be nearly as strong simply because the counters for it have been buffed.
Besides holding off Blink and watching it be executed was beautiful to watch because it really separated the men from the boys for both sides when it came to micro, very high skill cap.
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On April 01 2017 22:31 Kenny_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 17:39 AnossSc2 wrote:Blizzard... i know my english is bad.. but stop act like you listen the community. The community is gone, you listen people who are still playing Starcraft 2, not the community who still love this game but don't want to play it. Cause the game is so fast.. Did you try to play Starcraft 2 without Hotkey like a beginner ? you can't perform a simple 1 1 1... Can you please try to play this game like you never played it? I love Starcraft, i spend 7 years on it, i made a lot of tutorial on Youtube, i was host on Iron Squid / Nation War, but if i had discover this game with LOTV, i would probably never start this game. + Show Spoiler +Cause LOTV is a game only for player who spend 3 years on Wol/Hots, at this time we had time for learning the hotkey, the unit, and improve apm. And game was fun even if you don't have the knowledge, cause it was slow, and you had time to improve. Now even if you want play it's only frustrated game for beginner player.
How many of you have friends who want play "for fun" some games of Overwatch, LOL, H1Z1 but always says no when you start to say : Let's play a Starcraft 2 4v4 it can be fun ! no it's not fun anymore, it's boring macro and Oracle at 4 min and no.. i don't want let's go LOL bro.
So please Blizzard, even BroodWar is more easy to start than LOTV, you can 6 pool and play, you can 2 gate Zealot and play on BGH. Go back to 6 harvesters start. And stop acting like we don't have time, Starcraft is not : Easy to learn, hard to masteries, it's hard to learn, hard to masteries, go back on 6 harvesters and you will have a game : Easy to learn, hard to masteries.
Trust me, i can explain you in French by so many ways why the 12 harvesters killed the game... we can't make tutorial ( and nobody does...) we can't argue why it's better to play with 12 harvesters, it's just we gain time, and lost all the beginner player so no viewers on Twitch, no prize on competition, just to gain 4 min each game.. Why David ? all the people who love Starcraft work, they don't have time to perform until 150 apm if game is not fun, if a simple 1 1 1 is 1 month of try harding ( try to do it without knowledge of hotkey, supply positioning, unit.. like a beginner who want try this game not like the guys who knows perfectly the game since 5 years) with 6 harvesters, all can play, and people who have knowledge/apm can make the difference until 7 min mark... so why you did that ? Pro player want a hard game ? good, BWHD is coming ! but Starcraft 2 need to be like LOL, Hearthstone, H1Z1, a playable game for everybody. Master will always stay Master even with 6 harvesters you know that. So why...
I know balance is important, but Thor or not, people will not play again this game, the problem is the game is too fast, this should be the first priority of David Kim : Why people don't play Starcraft 2 anymore ? Poulet, i don't know why you hate this so much. SC2 was'nt more easy to me back to HotS, i think LotV did great at making more skirmishes (as a P though) and reducing the macro part of the game which is also what put a lot of people off.,i feel like there could be a bit more minerals on bases, but that's all. If anything, liberator/disruptor/Lurker make the game more hard for beginner. One thing i would argue for is more tools that would allow for less apm macro-wise : Auto-Train (idk why ppl hate this so much, actually i'm not even sure it would make the game that more easy) Macro pylon/warpprism so you can warp directly on them without looking at them (&auto train) by pressing 2 times the unit hotkey. Auto Larva/mule Ingame official HUD for BO,like in HoN a moba i love : Anyone can post a build, there is the official one, and you can up/downvote & IG you can select one so you can see what you have to buy.Not an external tool to download. Supply Block Warning Pre-configured hotkey setup, i press one hotkey and it marks all my army but my warpprism/HT/Disru on One, my Warpprism on 2, HT/disru on 3 ,all robo on 4 all Star on 5 nexus on 7 (i'm very happy with that warpgate hotkey as most protoss i guess) Allow to queue whatever you want, even if you can't do it right now (Terrans Adds, unavaible units & upgrades..) I also don't understand that in all the beta they never tried to make units A LITTLE MORE big (except the stalker, a possible buff for me would be to decrease a bit it's size..), or decreasing A BIT dps/HP ratio (although that is really hard to setup) But too late for all of this anyways. Cheers, i hope i see you soon on OG. lol u re asking for a version of starcraft that only requires to type GG
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I would love to see a statistic of exactly how often a unit has been adjusted for balance purposes over the life-time of SC2.
I wouldnt be surprised to see the Thor and Void Ray being somewhere very high up that list. The Thor has been "rubbish" since the very beginning but blizzard is unwilling to change it drastically. It is kind of silly. The Void Ray did also have its fair share of misaimed balancing over the years.
Can you think of a unit changed more often (or similarily often) then these two?
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Nerfing adepts to buff stalkers is not really a solution to anything, since stalker blink timings/all-ins would become too powerful (you complained about them for years and now suddenly.. ?)
Nerfing adepts and buffing stalkers is a great solution, or at least a great starting point.
Blink timings in LotV would be way weaker than they were in HotS. MSC vision is not 14 anymore, and there's a lot more for Zergs/Terrans to defend with. Tanks shut down Stalkers so hard these days, for example.
And at least blink micro requires skill, unlike adepts.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 02 2017 01:55 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Nerfing adepts to buff stalkers is not really a solution to anything, since stalker blink timings/all-ins would become too powerful (you complained about them for years and now suddenly.. ?)
Blink timings in LotV would be way weaker than they were in HotS. MSC vision is not 14 anymore, and there's a lot more for Zergs/Terrans to defend with. Tanks shut down Stalkers so hard these days, for example. And at least blink micro demands skillful micro, unlike adepts.
Been asking for a stalker buff for a long time, it's way overdue. They're just awful at the moment. Blink timings in PvT don't exist largely due to blink research time taking forever and tanks hard countering stalkers. In PvZ everyone prefers charge nowadays since stalkers just melt against buffed hydras or banes or ling bane ravager or anything really.
Damage or health/shield buffs to stalkers are perfectly reasonable suggestions imo.
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Reading previous answers, I don't think that a buff to stalkers will make every game a mass stalker play like in hots. And this just because this is lotv, and not hots: zergs and terrans have more options to counter stalkers than before (and also, a lot more tools to hit protoss and make him delay the blinkers).
Anyway, I still don't think that buffing stalkers is enough: pvz is actually such a broken matchup in so many ways.
When I play PvT and PvP and I play really good, when I win I feel satisfied. Also, when I loose, I just think ok: I did this mistake here and there, this is why i loose.
When I play versus zerg, it's just a nightmare. Even when I feel i'm playng so damn good, killed so many workers, harassed good, putting pressure and multitasking as hell, I loose to a mass unit sent in a-click or just to random drops/runbies. (Same sensation is when a terran goes basetrade, dirty way to play, still it occurs not so often). After shade vision nerf, I can't scout anymore efficiently, so every game I have to pray that my opening "fits" with zerg opening. Pylon placement, unit count and 3rd timing is so different for each aggression zerg can do to protoss that I feel this matchup is total rng.
Adepts helped a lot versus terrans, since I can produce adepts to defend from early bio if I want to stay safe. They are a unit that can be pulled throught whole match, like almost any unit protoss has in pvt.
In pvz you can produce adepts versus a zerg to stay safe, but they have a really small time windows to make damage, otherwise u just wasted resources -like opening glaidepts versus a roach opener-. Time windows for unit efficiency is the main problem of pvz imho, this is why we see so few playstyles.
I would really like to have nerfs here and there to protoss race, but I would also like to see some design changes that make this race smoother and solid, instead of a race based on units that are usefull only at determinate timings and conditions.
They really should start to adress protoss race as a whole.
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On April 01 2017 22:45 Turb0Sw4g wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 21:13 icesergio wrote:
Agree with mostly everything except the adept nerf
We want to nerf adepts! To which i would reply "awesome, then what?"
Exactly my question blizzard...
You nerf adepts, which are pretty cancerous (like widow mines, liberators ecc) but give us Protoss players what in the early/mid game?
Want a suggestion: give stalkers more damage vs armored and remove the armored tag. That would stop them from literally melting against siege tanks and voids without needing to reallocate void ray damage.
Give the Zealot a flat speed buff or give them the effect of +1 upgrade from the beginning (2 swipes to kill zerglings instead of 3, with 1 going to waste because of the nature of the attack)
Make adepts an OPTION, not a requirement to keep up against your opponent.
Two cents from a Dia player... Why not simply change the Void Ray though? It's not a core unit and therefore has way less interactions with other units than Stalkers. There's much less to worry about when changing its stats. Personally, I'd really like the old charge-up mechanic back. It was unique and required much more skill. On top of that, blink stalkers traded much better against Void Rays back then iirc.
But is nerfing voids really the right way? Honestly I find myself using voids all the time, simply because Immortals just don't cut it anymore... (Immortals as of now are a funny joke, both to use and to play against)
Honestly I never really liked the Adept, wouldn't mind nerfing it but nerfing it without doing anything else would be pretty bad...
Just give the Stalker and Zealot a bit more oomph, Blink timings aren't what they used to be; chrono boost is a joke, mama core no longer has 14 vision and hydras and tanks completely tear through stalkers.
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On March 31 2017 05:20 MockHamill wrote:
I agree with the Thor and Raven changes. Thors currently do not not do their job against Carriers, Tempest, BC or Liberators. They are basically useless except against mass muta. So any improvement to Thors like +1 armour (better vs Carriers) and increased single target air damage would be a good idea.
Making Tempest stronger vs capitals ships seems like the wrong move. The problem is that Carriers are too strong so it better to adress the actual problem by nerfing Carriers instead of just making Protoss air even stronger, so that not even BCs can work vs Protoss air. This of course depends on how much you improve Thors. If you improve Thor armour by 1 and increase Thor single target air damage maybe mech could trade and do timing attacks vs Protoss instead of being forced to turtle to BC.
I don't believe the thor is the counter to carrier and tempest. It will certainly kill interceptors, but viking, cyclone or ghost should handle the carrier. Widow mine is a good soft counter as well and can kill carriers and interceptors if massed.
Tempest is a mech counter especially vs tanks. Thor appears earlier than tempest in the game. If it is massed as an all around unit and counters tempest, it would make no sense for protoss to go tempest, because its counter is already on the field (the thor).
Cyclone is a good soft counter and viking is able to deal with tempests depending on numbers, tactic, positioning and micro.
It is often a question of cost, timing and numbers. We have to keep everything in mind and not analyse units in a vacuum. I personally would prefer if they replace cyclone and thor with goliath. Even tempest isn't necessary anymore. Wasn't it the replacement for carriers? Carriers work finally, there is no need for tempest.
But lotv now works too. Only protoss seems to be in a weird place. Nonetheless i had never more fun with sc2. I enjoy lotv a lot more than wol and hots. Sure terrans want to be able to play mech vs protoss, but mech isn't abusing the weakness of protoss as much as bio. The medivac is such a game changer!
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Been asking for a stalker buff for a long time, it's way overdue. They're just awful at the moment. Blink timings in PvT don't exist largely due to blink research time taking forever and tanks hard countering stalkers. In PvZ everyone prefers charge nowadays since stalkers just melt against buffed hydras or banes or ling bane ravager or anything really.
Damage or health/shield buffs to stalkers are perfectly reasonable suggestions imo.
Nerfing Adepts and buffing Stalkers seems like a great idea to me. While their roles have some overlap, it wouldn't simply be trading one problem for another because Stalkers are much worse at slaughtering workers and (being Armored) have clearly defined counters. After nerfing Adepts, I would happily support a damage buff and perhaps a small health buff.
If they wound up being unkillable, Blink cooldown could always be increased.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 02 2017 04:30 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Been asking for a stalker buff for a long time, it's way overdue. They're just awful at the moment. Blink timings in PvT don't exist largely due to blink research time taking forever and tanks hard countering stalkers. In PvZ everyone prefers charge nowadays since stalkers just melt against buffed hydras or banes or ling bane ravager or anything really.
Damage or health/shield buffs to stalkers are perfectly reasonable suggestions imo. Nerfing Adepts and buffing Stalkers seems like a great idea to me. While their roles have some overlap, it wouldn't simply be trading one problem for another because Stalkers are much worse at slaughtering workers and (being Armored) have clearly defined counters. If they wound up being unkillable, Blink could always be nerfed.
I'd rather blink be left as it is - it's one of the coolest abilities in the game, and I don't think it's ever been a problem in itself. When there was issues with blink stalkers, the problem was usually something else that made them too strong - such as MSC vision, timewarp, etc.
The big thing to look at when trying to nerf adepts has always been shade, and still is. I think the vision patch was a bit much since often you needed it for scouting early on, but the rest of it is too good. Personally I think making the shade last either longer or much shorter is a good first step. The goal should be that adepts can't shade into mineral lines from a safe distance and cancel if there's danger. If shades are active for longer then the opponent has more time to get units in position, if they're shorter than adepts need to be closer to danger to use the spell correctly. Not sure which is better, but probably the longer version. I wouldn't mind if shade disappeared altogether, I think it's a really odd concept.
As for their damage output, I think that's in a good place. They need to be powerful against light units in straight up fights and there's no other unit you can reasonably buff against light without breaking the game. The only real problem with adepts is the way they're used as harassment.
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On April 02 2017 04:40 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2017 04:30 pvsnp wrote:Been asking for a stalker buff for a long time, it's way overdue. They're just awful at the moment. Blink timings in PvT don't exist largely due to blink research time taking forever and tanks hard countering stalkers. In PvZ everyone prefers charge nowadays since stalkers just melt against buffed hydras or banes or ling bane ravager or anything really.
Damage or health/shield buffs to stalkers are perfectly reasonable suggestions imo. Nerfing Adepts and buffing Stalkers seems like a great idea to me. While their roles have some overlap, it wouldn't simply be trading one problem for another because Stalkers are much worse at slaughtering workers and (being Armored) have clearly defined counters. If they wound up being unkillable, Blink could always be nerfed. I'd rather blink be left as it is - it's one of the coolest abilities in the game, and I don't think it's ever been a problem in itself. When there was issues with blink stalkers, the problem was usually something else that made them too strong - such as MSC vision, timewarp, etc. The big thing to look at when trying to nerf adepts has always been shade, and still is. I think the vision patch was a bit much since often you needed it for scouting early on, but the rest of it is too good. Personally I think making the shade last either longer or much shorter is a good first step. The goal should be that adepts can't shade into mineral lines from a safe distance and cancel if there's danger. If shades are active for longer then the opponent has more time to get units in position, if they're shorter than adepts need to be closer to danger to use the spell correctly. Not sure which is better, but probably the longer version. I wouldn't mind if shade disappeared altogether, I think it's a really odd concept. As for their damage output, I think that's in a good place. They need to be powerful against light units in straight up fights and there's no other unit you can reasonably buff against light without breaking the game. The only real problem with adepts is the way they're used as harassment.
I think making it longer is a bit double-edged. On the one hand you have more time to get units in position and kill those low HP adepts that always get away. On the other hand, it would also keep the defender's attention occupied longer as the Protoss decides whether he wants to actually shade between 2 bases or stay in the one he's in.
I'd much rather the cooldown for shade was increased so that if you 'commit' to a shade you're actually committed. And then give back at least some of the vision that was taken away so that the Protoss makes an informed decision about committing or not committing.
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How to go about nerfing adepts seems like a fairly straightforward business. It took me about a minute to come up with several proposals, any one of which would probably be enough.
To stress, that is ONE of the following, not ALL of the following:
1. Reduce health by 10 (or shields, same difference for the most part). Adepts are very tanky for a non-Armored unit.
2. Increase Glaives research time to 121. It's an extremely vital upgrade, much like Blink and Stim which both cost 121 s.
3. Implement shade collision. Would really help Zergs keep adepts out of their mineral lines.
4. Increase shade cooldown (as mentioned by others)
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On April 01 2017 21:13 icesergio wrote:
Two cents from a Dia player...
Who wants to be effortlessly transported into master league...
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On April 02 2017 06:31 pvsnp wrote:
How to go about nerfing adepts seems like a fairly straightforward business. It took me about a minute to come up with several proposals, any one of which would probably be enough.
To stress, that is ONE of the following, not ALL of the following:
1. Reduce health by 10 (or shields, same difference for the most part). Adepts are very tanky for a non-Armored unit.
2. Increase Glaives research time to 121. It's an extremely vital upgrade, much like Blink and Stim which both cost 121 s.
3. Implement shade collision. Would really help Zergs keep adepts out of their mineral lines.
4. Increase shade cooldown (as mentioned by others)
I think the best thing would be to increase shade cooldown. It's similar to the reaper with regards to its abusability. The problem was how much one could spam either ability so that there was little counterplay. But now, you have to be careful where you put your mine, and the reaper can no longer escape as easily as it once did. Similarly with the adept, you would reduce the survival length and also prevent the number of places an adept can be.
Adepts are very tanky, but they still do low enough damage that they're more meatshields than anything else, and since gateway units are fairly weak without abilities, I do think that Protoss needs a gateway unit that can stand up to a lot of punishment. Increasing glaives would only delay it, and the problem is that they are very abusive once when used as a mass warp-in shade everywhere, which would not be changed by this. Shade collision is a possibility, but it basically takes out the point of shading. It's like if roaches could tunnel but had to keep in line with collision with other units.
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On April 01 2017 21:13 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 17:39 AnossSc2 wrote:
Blizzard... i know my english is bad.. but stop act like you listen the community. The community is gone, you listen people who are still playing Starcraft 2, not the community who still love this game but don't want to play it. Cause the game is so fast.. Did you try to play Starcraft 2 without Hotkey like a beginner ? you can't perform a simple 1 1 1... Can you please try to play this game like you never played it? I love Starcraft, i spend 7 years on it, i made a lot of tutorial on Youtube, i was host on Iron Squid / Nation War, but if i had discover this game with LOTV, i would probably never start this game.
Cause LOTV is a game only for player who spend 3 years on Wol/Hots, at this time we had time for learning the hotkey, the unit, and improve apm. And game was fun even if you don't have the knowledge, cause it was slow, and you had time to improve. Now even if you want play it's only frustrated game for beginner player.
How many of you have friends who want play "for fun" some games of Overwatch, LOL, H1Z1 but always says no when you start to say : Let's play a Starcraft 2 4v4 it can be fun ! no it's not fun anymore, it's boring macro and Oracle at 4 min and no.. i don't want let's go LOL bro.
So please Blizzard, even BroodWar is more easy to start than LOTV, you can 6 pool and play, you can 2 gate Zealot and play on BGH. Go back to 6 harvesters start. And stop acting like we don't have time, Starcraft is not : Easy to learn, hard to masteries, it's hard to learn, hard to masteries, go back on 6 harvesters and you will have a game : Easy to learn, hard to masteries.
Trust me, i can explain you in French by so many ways why the 12 harvesters killed the game... we can't make tutorial ( and nobody does...) we can't argue why it's better to play with 12 harvesters, it's just we gain time, and lost all the beginner player so no viewers on Twitch, no prize on competition, just to gain 4 min each game.. Why David ? all the people who love Starcraft work, they don't have time to perform until 150 apm if game is not fun, if a simple 1 1 1 is 1 month of try harding ( try to do it without knowledge of hotkey, supply positioning, unit.. like a beginner who want try this game not like the guys who knows perfectly the game since 5 years) with 6 harvesters, all can play, and people who have knowledge/apm can make the difference until 7 min mark... so why you did that ? Pro player want a hard game ? good, BWHD is coming ! but Starcraft 2 need to be like LOL, Hearthstone, H1Z1, a playable game for everybody. Master will always stay Master even with 6 harvesters you know that. So why...
I know balance is important, but Thor or not, people will not play again this game, the problem is the game is too fast, this should be the first priority of David Kim : Why people don't play Starcraft 2 anymore ?
No thx... I dont want 6 workers back EVER... I don't want to play 1 or 2 hour games anymore... or mashing SD SD SD SD SD for 10 minutes until something is going on... ALSO Never ever again compare SC2 to casualstone, league of boredom or h1(wth is even that?).. go play hots if you want...
This is why Starcraft is dying... Because most of people who keep playing this game think 6 harvesters was to slow.. Look BW, the reference, the base of Starcraft 2, you spend 4 min to just macro and nobody complaining. You said : i don't want play 1 or 2 hours games anymore... mate, a game on LOTV last about 13 min on average, a game on HOTS last about 17 min on average, that's all  it's not about 1 hours game (remember timer was X1.5 faster)
And this argument about "Casual Game". What is casual on 6 harvesters start ? You can go CC first or gas first or One rax expo or all in double rax 11 with 6 harvester, on a Bo3 it's a paper roc scissor before game start. With 12 ? only gas first ! mineral is free and gas unit come so fast why do anything else... you have gas unit AND b2 fast ! is that the casual thing ?
I remembered when Bomber was countering 15 banelings with only 23 marines ! is that the casual thing ? split is casual ? where is the splitt now ? when mines and tank come so fast...
Now you macro 4 min, at 4 min 30, you can have an Oracle, or a Cyclone, a Liberator, is that the skill ? when on 6 harvester you had to read and scout to know, did i put a bunker/sunken or not ? where is the skill now ? it's Bo against Bo and you can't read properly what do your opponent cause you can do what you want ! 8 min Carrier lol, 8 min BC rofl..
So now you execute the same build against each race, and you think the game is less casual cause you have to be faster ? faster on macro ? but macro is just a repetition, same pylon, same robotics.. and you think this is skill ? on HOTS 3 gas on Protoss, i'm sur it's a 7 gate robot, let's scan or send a reaper, what did you read now ? tell me ? you just macroing and then you attack and discover ! ok Protoss play Phoenix ! This is not skill, this is just playing.
And it's so easy to say : 6 harvester is to slow and unskilled. 90% of the people who are still play this game started on Wol/Hots. You have had more than 5 years to get used to the game, and now you think 6 harvesters is bad.. easy to think now you know how to play mate, think about you 5 years ago when you was this guy with no mechanics, and no knowledge, remembrer your first game. 6 harvester let you grow up, 12 don't.
Blizzard should not listen people like you, with no new player, you will stop to play this game like all the rest, you think you are playing the real game, but tomorrow you will speak with a BW player : I play the real game, i play Starcraft 2 ! Really ? BW player will laugh ! real game is BW bro, you will speak to your casual player friend : I play SC2 ! the real game !! and casual player will laugh ! SC2 is dead bro.. And you will change the game and go to all this game you don't like, like a lot of people. And Blizzard will think : I listened the community why people still stop playing ? Cause a lot of people think playing a inaccessible game make them smart, but it's wrong, you are smart when you are the best in a game, not cause you play a type of game. So Stop arguing this plz, Does not mix your egocentricity and the game, casual game is Sonic bro, all the E-sport game are Skill game, there is no SC2 is on the top and LOL is bullshit, it's just different game.
So IF WE LOVE STARCRAFT 2, we have to think differently, this game is not only for people like you and me who discovered it with WOL, League has a ton of new player cause player don't say : I want start level 6 cause game is boring with one spell. It's the game, this is how people can grow up. Faker is Faker after 7 min mark, before we can all play and creep like Faker, this why League work, and why Starcraft 2 don't. Think about it.
May be we should all understand, than if we don't want some new player, we will never have a great E-sport scene on Starcraft 2, so if the only argument for 12 harvesters is : The game is for the real guys who don't play Lol H1Z1 and all this shit, we will never be great again, pro player will never make some money, and game will die cause even TL one day will focus on other game. So please guys, we need to wake up, we all played on 6 harvesters, best game EVER on Starcraft 2 was on 6 harvester, we need to discuss about that.
@eonzerg you don't understand my point, Starcraft is hard to masteries and it's cool like that, the point is, when i started to play this game, it was easy to execute a 1 1 1, the difficulties was when i had to micro my hellion and continue to macro in my basement. That's why i continued to play the game, that was fun to micro and make a build, and i was thinking : I did some damage but with a better macro my damage would have been increased, so i want be a better player, i need to focus more on my macro when i attack my opponent.
Now you can't execute a 1 1 1, if you don't know the game, it's just stupid, if people don't have fun why they would continue to perform ? you stress to build a simple 1 1 1 cause it's so much APM now for a beginner and oups ! an Oracle, you die ! but play again !!! This game is so cool ! it's stupid. In my time, i just had to send a worker, no B2 since 1 min 30, ok may be it's Oracle or Blink but it's all in. I do a bunker and a Turret. Now you go heavy gas or B2, the difference on the B2 timing is 40 sec ! WOW !! with 6 collector you go heavy gas ok, the opponent B2 come 2 min after than yours. This is why now no body make some tutorial on the game, cause you need a lot of knowledge and APM even at 4 min mark... in my time, it was easy to say : at 3.35 until 5 min no B2, may be it's all in, do a bunker and a turret, now it's at 3.35 until 4.10 no B2, may be its Oracle but may be player is low... so i don't know mate ! this why nobody try to make some tutorial, cause you can't make tutorial on LOTV.
Si i don't want a Starcraft 2 easy to play, i want a Starcraft 2 Easy to play, hard to masteries, like all the other Esport game. And i dont want play Hots because HOTS was redundant due to a lack of unity, Lotv is not.
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On April 02 2017 01:59 Weltall wrote:
They really should start to adress protoss race as a whole.
That's the dream! I mean, it's said to say but Protoss design primarily consists of weak core units and band-aids & gimmicks. I think that most people on the forum agree on this. Blizzard not so much. I think they don't see the problem or don't want to open up that particular can of worms.
On April 02 2017 02:02 icesergio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 22:45 Turb0Sw4g wrote:On April 01 2017 21:13 icesergio wrote:
Agree with mostly everything except the adept nerf
We want to nerf adepts! To which i would reply "awesome, then what?"
Exactly my question blizzard...
You nerf adepts, which are pretty cancerous (like widow mines, liberators ecc) but give us Protoss players what in the early/mid game?
Want a suggestion: give stalkers more damage vs armored and remove the armored tag. That would stop them from literally melting against siege tanks and voids without needing to reallocate void ray damage.
Give the Zealot a flat speed buff or give them the effect of +1 upgrade from the beginning (2 swipes to kill zerglings instead of 3, with 1 going to waste because of the nature of the attack)
Make adepts an OPTION, not a requirement to keep up against your opponent.
Two cents from a Dia player... Why not simply change the Void Ray though? It's not a core unit and therefore has way less interactions with other units than Stalkers. There's much less to worry about when changing its stats. Personally, I'd really like the old charge-up mechanic back. It was unique and required much more skill. On top of that, blink stalkers traded much better against Void Rays back then iirc. But is nerfing voids really the right way? Honestly I find myself using voids all the time, simply because Immortals just don't cut it anymore... (Immortals as of now are a funny joke, both to use and to play against) Honestly I never really liked the Adept, wouldn't mind nerfing it but nerfing it without doing anything else would be pretty bad... Just give the Stalker and Zealot a bit more oomph, Blink timings aren't what they used to be; chrono boost is a joke, mama core no longer has 14 vision and hydras and tanks completely tear through stalkers.
Well yeah, I'd also like to see stronger Zealots and Stalkers. For me it would be cool to see a 14 flat damage Stalker with higher mineral/gas cost to differentiate it from the adept as an all round damage dealer.
But, they're specifically addressing skytoss PvP in this update. So, I think a Stalker buff won't happen. If they change—not necessarily nerf—Prismatic Alignment, I would actually be happy. It's a really dumb ability.
On April 02 2017 12:10 AnossSc2 wrote:
Si i don't want a Starcraft 2 easy to play, i want a Starcraft 2 Easy to play, hard to masteries, like all the other Esport game.
That would honestly be pretty awesome.
This game has too much arbitrary complexity (redundant units and spells/abilites) and too many APM drains (like MULEs and larva injects). Effectively only pro players are able to really play the game. It's silly.
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I love how everyone bash "macro help", i'm sceptic about the drain of fun too, but there was'nt even a map for try to this (just a beta stage with auto mule where all race were nerfed for 2 weeks => no fun). I don't think a gold would go challenge a diam with tools like this, game will still be hard, those functionnality would be like F2: Provide ease of life but in the end they would initiate missplay and should'nt be used.
I'm enjoying SC2 as it is now, but sometime i'm wondering what if we could artificially up the level of everybody so we got closer to higher level. Things is, below low plat/top gold the game is boring and lack of interest, what if low gold could play games that are more close to top gold, top gold to to top plat, the ease of life provided would proportionally decrease as the level goes up, to korean this would (be a sacrilege) provide really tiny apm time, or none.
Also back to WoL HoTs game was still hard. And eventually, those 4min of macroing just to getting rekt in the end does'nt welcome casual either,cause after a few game they are bored.
edit: oh and loggin, but splash damage, making Stalker more tiny would buff them (when massing ofc), player would had huge trouble in Blink all in era, and if Roaches were smaller, PvZ would be be quite horrible to play too early on.It's what (not only thing for sure)make the bioball strong, the "ball" is tiny and the dps go fast &easily to 100%, unlike big clumps of roaches. If you are master or above, be gratefull to your mechanics, cause that's definitevely not your understanding of the game that brought you there.
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