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This is not a balance thread. I'm sure others will see it otherwise, but let me preface this by saying we have Protoss, Zerg and Terran all in the top RO8.
I am more concerned about the lower levels. I am high master low GM Terran. I made GM for all of 3 days this season; I'm about 5200-5300 MMR and I only Mech (vs all 3 races since 2010). I don't like ravens except for early defense. I don't see too much that changed in the last several patches that drastically changed mech or Terran; in fact, the race seems to have stayed the same, if anything from my perspective. So what suddenly changed? Yes, tanks received a damaged increase...but do you see pro players meching TvP? Raven auto turret received a buff, but do you see that changing the game (except TvT). Also, many do not know that the auto turret is EXACTLY the same with the upgrade. Blizzard simply removed the upgrade. So nothing has really changed to influence non-mirror TvT matchups for over a year.
I'm not kidding you, I'd rather not take a screenshot, but I played 12 Terrans in a row tonight. I've played 328 games this season and 140 of them are TvT. This is a 43% ratio of TvT.
Now think to yourself. I'm a mech player, so each game becomes reasonably long (again, I don't Raven). I'm pulling my hair out with frustration. Does anyone else have this ratio with similar MMR or even leagues? I remember ZvZ craft when there was a definitive reason everyone was playing Zerg: This was due to the Queen buff. But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
I really hope to get some feedback from people who decided to switch to Terran because these statistics are not happenstance.
PS. I'm NA Server
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NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
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On February 11 2017 18:52 MockHamill wrote:
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
Yes, but the problem with these kinds of distributions is they have no context. What identifies as a Terran as a Terran or Zerg as a Zerg etc? 10 or 20 games? There is a difference between me playing 330 games this season to identify as Terran versus a Protoss who played 10 games. This distribution could be seen as a significantly larger variance if you look at the ratio of games played.
I could look at numbers all day, but there is a difference between analyzing numbers and engaging a community. I also believe that the sites that have race distributions are flawed: They need to take total games played of each account into consideration for overall influence on a community.
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France12796 Posts
Maybe most terrans in GM/master are top master or low GM so you encounter a lot of terrans.
Overall I think there are few protoss on ladder and a lot of zergs and terrans.
Mech / ravens being easy doesn't help you in that regard, but except at the very start of LotV, there haven't been a lot of protoss on the ladder.
"So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
"
Pretty sure this isn't the law of large numbers :o.
I think that the law of large numbers in that particular case isn't applicable because not every "eligible" (in the sense of MMR being close to the OP's) player is online when you queue for a game, so we won't have the "i.i.d" hypothesis valid.
Plus even if all GM players were to be online at the same time, it's likely that they would be playing thus the available player pool would not be the same as the GM distribution anyways...
So my advice would be to stream snipe streamers of the race you want to play against (not stream cheat, just stream snipe) if your MMR allows you to.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
There's been a huge lack of protoss players around masters since LOTV, there are roughly as many terrans as zerg (outside of korea which is more T focused IIRC)
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On February 11 2017 18:52 MockHamill wrote:
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
this is my friendly shitpost of the month: I suggest you read what the law of large numbers actually states. It has nothing to do with weird things happening, given enough time and large enough numbers.
The law of large numbers is the idea that as the sample size n gets large, the average will converge to the expected value.
not only is what you said wrong, even looking at the correct definition, the LLN has nothing to say on the matter of race distribution in a 3 player RTS unless you were flipping coins and rolling dice to determine what race to play.
to OP:
What's happening here is two things. The actual distribution of games played (data from blizzard) by race at your skill level, and the not-so-random(do the actual distributions vary based on time of day? day of the week? we don't know) sample your games represent from that bracket. Without running the math and just eyeballing the numbers up above, factoring that terran appears to increase in popularity as you go up in rank, n~=300, I think it's fair to say that yes, you are probably just experiencing what is known as variance.
now, if you showed me data from hundreds of accounts with TvT stats(THIS is where the LLN shines; as you sample more and more accounts and check their % vs T, the average of all of these accounts should approach 36-39%. if it doesn't, something funny is going on), i'd be interested in running the numbers, but for every one of 'you' who played 10% more TvTs than you should have, there's a doppleganger 'you' who played 10% fewer TvTs than normal. someone next week is going to post "look, i played 417 games, and only 133 of them were TvT this is only 33% of the time! but nearly 40% of the players are terrans? what is going on here blizzard? am I just getting unlucky? I LOVE tvt!" (if its not a balance whine, why mention that you play mech exclusively for 6+ years regardless of patches, matchups, spawn locations?)
If you were a protoss player playing even 33% of your games as mirrors, there would be something highly irregular going on with either the matchmaking, or the racial distribution. but as a terran player this is to be expected and hardly evidence to reject.
your guess is as good as mine as to which lurking variables here are responsible for the discrepancy, but nothing weird is happening here. this is the classic "why me, god?" whine.
TLDR;
actual (from blizzard)
T -- 36-39%
observed (n = 328)
T -- 43%
...these statistics are not happenstance.
yes. yes they are.
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On February 11 2017 18:41 SirPinky wrote:
This is not a balance thread. I'm sure others will see it otherwise, but let me preface this by saying we have Protoss, Zerg and Terran all in the top RO8.
I am more concerned about the lower levels. I am high master low GM Terran. I made GM for all of 3 days this season; I'm about 5200-5300 MMR and I only Mech (vs all 3 races since 2010). I don't like ravens except for early defense. I don't see too much that changed in the last several patches that drastically changed mech or Terran; in fact, the race seems to have stayed the same, if anything from my perspective. So what suddenly changed? Yes, tanks received a damaged increase...but do you see pro players meching TvP? Raven auto turret received a buff, but do you see that changing the game (except TvT). Also, many do not know that the auto turret is EXACTLY the same with the upgrade. Blizzard simply removed the upgrade. So nothing has really changed to influence non-mirror TvT matchups for over a year.
I'm not kidding you, I'd rather not take a screenshot, but I played 12 Terrans in a row tonight. I've played 328 games this season and 140 of them are TvT. This is a 43% ratio of TvT.
Now think to yourself. I'm a mech player, so each game becomes reasonably long (again, I don't Raven). I'm pulling my hair out with frustration. Does anyone else have this ratio with similar MMR or even leagues? I remember ZvZ craft when there was a definitive reason everyone was playing Zerg: This was due to the Queen buff. But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
I really hope to get some feedback from people who decided to switch to Terran because these statistics are not happenstance.
PS. I'm NA Server
Terran is in a good spot right now, which is nice to see
Btw how are you a GM Terran playing Mech, Avilo and his crew keep saying this is impossible
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Terran is in a good spot right now, which is nice to see
Btw how are you a GM Terran playing Mech, Avilo and his crew keep saying this is impossible
Anything can work at casual level. Innovation could probably worker rush and win in GM. Does not mean it is a viable strat.
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Its not just about the race distribution, it can be also about which players play frequently and which don't.
Even if we had an equal of 33.3% per race but say Terrnas were playing 3 times more games then a zerg or a porttoss, you have 60% meeting a terran on the ladder just because they play more games even tough the distribution is the same (and it seems like its only 33.3%)..
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France12796 Posts
On February 12 2017 01:26 bulya wrote:
Its not just about the race distribution, it can be also about which players play frequently and which don't.
Even if we had an equal of 33.3% per race but say Terrnas were playing 3 times more games then a zerg or a porttoss, you have 60% meeting a terran on the ladder just because they play more games even tough the distribution is the same (and it seems like its only 33.3%)..
There is also the problem that other players don't wait for you to queue up a game before playing, so there aren't that many players searching a game at the same time as you with a similar MMR.
This is why the probabilities of you meeting up a particular race change a bit depending on when you play, and why race distribution will just give you a vague idea of what you'll meet on the ladder.
As for the reasons why there aren't as many protoss as zerg/terrans, it's probably because of worse game design for the protoss race? Like players don't find it as fun or idk?
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On February 11 2017 22:31 ItsFunToLose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 18:52 MockHamill wrote:
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
this is my friendly shitpost of the month: I suggest you read what the law of large numbers actually states. It has nothing to do with weird things happening, given enough time and large enough numbers. The law of large numbers is the idea that as the sample size n gets large, the average will converge to the expected value.not only is what you said wrong, even looking at the correct definition, the LLN has nothing to say on the matter of race distribution in a 3 player RTS unless you were flipping coins and rolling dice to determine what race to play. to OP: What's happening here is two things. The actual distribution of games played (data from blizzard) by race at your skill level, and the not-so-random(do the actual distributions vary based on time of day? day of the week? we don't know) sample your games represent from that bracket. Without running the math and just eyeballing the numbers up above, factoring that terran appears to increase in popularity as you go up in rank, n~=300, I think it's fair to say that yes, you are probably just experiencing what is known as variance. now, if you showed me data from hundreds of accounts with TvT stats(THIS is where the LLN shines; as you sample more and more accounts and check their % vs T, the average of all of these accounts should approach 36-39%. if it doesn't, something funny is going on), i'd be interested in running the numbers, but for every one of 'you' who played 10% more TvTs than you should have, there's a doppleganger 'you' who played 10% fewer TvTs than normal. someone next week is going to post "look, i played 417 games, and only 133 of them were TvT this is only 33% of the time! but nearly 40% of the players are terrans? what is going on here blizzard? am I just getting unlucky? I LOVE tvt!" (if its not a balance whine, why mention that you play mech exclusively for 6+ years regardless of patches, matchups, spawn locations?) If you were a protoss player playing even 33% of your games as mirrors, there would be something highly irregular going on with either the matchmaking, or the racial distribution. but as a terran player this is to be expected and hardly evidence to reject. your guess is as good as mine as to which lurking variables here are responsible for the discrepancy, but nothing weird is happening here. this is the classic "why me, god?" whine.
TLDR;
actual (from blizzard)
T -- 36-39%
observed (n = 328)
T -- 43%
yes. yes they are.
I want to give you my heart.
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Terran Plat T2 here.
55 games played this season, 28 were against terran so 50%.
I have the same feeling to always play terran while I HATE this MU.
Referring on SC2 Unmasked stats:
EU Plat races distribution:
Z 37%
T 30%
P 24%
So, there is something wrong.
As I can read above, Terran look good atm with Inno TY Maru kick some asses so maybe more terran players who start the season still to play while Z and P players play 5 games and stop it.
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You know how I know your lying?
Avilo said that you can't be good with mech cuz it's so bad and it can't be played at a high level at all without mass raven so your lying bro your not a mech GM terran stop lying to me
*maximum Kappa*
User was warned for this post
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France12796 Posts
On February 12 2017 02:26 Sound1 wrote:
Terran Plat T2 here.
55 games played this season, 28 were against terran so 50%.
I have the same feeling to always play terran while I HATE this MU.
Referring on SC2 Unmasked stats:
EU Plat races distribution:
Z 37%
T 30%
P 24%
So, there is something wrong.
As I can read above, Terran look good atm with Inno TY Maru kick some asses so maybe more terran players who start the season still to play while Z and P players play 5 games and stop it.
There is nothing wrong, because of the already stated above reasons (plus small sample size) and the fact that the Plat 2 distribution is probably not the same as the play distribution.
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I think protoss is just played a lot less. They have been the bastard race of SC2 for a long time. Seen as cheesy and gimmicky. I am not entirely sure it is a balance issue. People are heavily discouraged from playing protoss on ladder. (ie being called names etc)
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Before this somehow got coopted into a discussion on mech in high masters, or to shut down a not very cleverly disguised brag post, I did some poking around on rankedftw and sc2replaystats.com.
The only player to fit the description of 328 games played minimum, mmr around 5200-5300, complete with a very high number of tvts recently, who did in fact hit GM for three days this season is [PsiX]Psyche http://www.rankedftw.com/team/471682/#td=region&ty=m&ra=best&tyz=1&tx=a&tl=1. His battle.net profile confirms that the Psyche on rankedftw and the one here on sc2replaystats http://sc2replaystats.com/player/12433 is in fact the same person.
Every single replay I checked stats on had a terran going bio. I could not find a single mech game across at least 10 recent games across each matchup that happened to get uploaded, though admittedly I did not open every single replay he had available. Example: http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/4357055 bio tvz.
Why am I being so incredibly petty? In Wings of Liberty I was in clan Revoki for a few months. Pinky here was a fan or a "sponsor" or something in the team. At that point in time he paid extensively for account boosting so that he could brag about being x rank/league. I did not participate in said boosting.
I did not see any evidence of multiple players playing this particular account in the replays from the apm or unit composition across the replays I found on sc2replaystats, so it's possible he did get up to high masters, or maybe there's just one high masters guy playing this account, I dunno. But either way, he is not a GM mech terran.
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Is it really hard to guess why you don't play as many Zergs and Protoss? Because they quit from the obvious one-sided strength that T has, while the other races have been getting nerfed to the ground. ALL, and I mean ALL my Protoss friends players have quit SC2 (majority after Libs came out)
But keep pushing for that mech viability until no single Zerg or Protoss player is left
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Yeah, I think a lot of Protoss players have switched race. I've always played Toss since I started playing in 2012 (at a low level - plat/diamond) but it feels harder to me in LoTV, especially against Terran. The separate MMR for each race possibly encouraged it too. Now I play Terran, which is more fun anyway.
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As others said, the problem is less protoss players. From the most played race in WoL and HotS, it is the least played race now. That's an indication that Blizzard fucked something up. Well, one race has to be the least played race, but if given percentages in this thread are correct, protoss shouldn't be below 28% at most. It has to be between 28-33% to be acceptable. Ideally, you should get 33% protoss, 33% zerg and 33% terran. If you say that -/+ 5 is acceptable, then no race should be less than 28% and no race should be above 38%.
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
If true, that just supports what I'm talking about.
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On February 11 2017 23:02 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +
Terran is in a good spot right now, which is nice to see
Btw how are you a GM Terran playing Mech, Avilo and his crew keep saying this is impossible
Anything can work at casual level. Innovation could probably worker rush and win in GM. Does not mean it is a viable strat.
Scarlett won a game at Homestory Cup against Stats after worker rushing.
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On February 11 2017 18:41 SirPinky wrote:
This is not a balance thread. I'm sure others will see it otherwise, but let me preface this by saying we have Protoss, Zerg and Terran all in the top RO8.
I am more concerned about the lower levels. I am high master low GM Terran. I made GM for all of 3 days this season; I'm about 5200-5300 MMR and I only Mech (vs all 3 races since 2010). I don't like ravens except for early defense. I don't see too much that changed in the last several patches that drastically changed mech or Terran; in fact, the race seems to have stayed the same, if anything from my perspective. So what suddenly changed? Yes, tanks received a damaged increase...but do you see pro players meching TvP? Raven auto turret received a buff, but do you see that changing the game (except TvT). Also, many do not know that the auto turret is EXACTLY the same with the upgrade. Blizzard simply removed the upgrade. So nothing has really changed to influence non-mirror TvT matchups for over a year.
I'm not kidding you, I'd rather not take a screenshot, but I played 12 Terrans in a row tonight. I've played 328 games this season and 140 of them are TvT. This is a 43% ratio of TvT.
Now think to yourself. I'm a mech player, so each game becomes reasonably long (again, I don't Raven). I'm pulling my hair out with frustration. Does anyone else have this ratio with similar MMR or even leagues? I remember ZvZ craft when there was a definitive reason everyone was playing Zerg: This was due to the Queen buff. But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
I really hope to get some feedback from people who decided to switch to Terran because these statistics are not happenstance.
PS. I'm NA Server
You know Terran also benefits from the tank damage increase when going bio. It effectively made blink openers a lot harder to pull off and requires the protoss to defend more than before the buff. And yeah im a terran player myself who plays bio and mech half and half on EU server at mid master. But yeah i enjoy all match ups so I dont really care for the race distribution. The fact is terran is in a good spot at the moment and thats probably the reason why more people are playing them.
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France12796 Posts
Why would the OP brag about being GM on NA with mech? :o
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Even if the chance for 10 terrans in a row is only 1%, it can still happen (otherwise the chance would be zero). There is a whole chapter about this in probability and statistics with very interesting results (worth reading). Simple said, you get the perfect outcome (distribution of races) only if you play an infinite amount of games.
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On February 12 2017 06:13 Poopi wrote:
Why would the OP brag about being GM on NA with mech? :o
because he wants guys like me to feel bad and ashamed. 
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On February 12 2017 06:27 todespolka wrote:
Even if the chance for 10 terrans in a row is only 1%, it can still happen (otherwise the chance would be zero). There is a whole chapter about this in probability and statistics with very interesting results (worth reading). Simple said, you get the perfect outcome (distribution of races) only if you play an infinite amount of games.
Perfect outcome? Is there such a thing? While it's unlikely to happen, you can play only terran opponents in a row. Of course, chance could be like 0,000000000......1% but you get the point.
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To say Terran is in a good spot is an understatement. But this motivates Terran players to play more as they have a very enjoyable time*. As a result you will have more games vs Terran than it would result from race distribution at any given level.
Its not rocket science.
*Excluding Avilo of course.
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the game will always be at least somewhat imbalanced at lower than pro level APM levels. i accept this as part of playing the game. i'm unwilling to put in the work required to get my APM consistently over 200. the price i pay for my laziness is that i'm playing an imbalanced game. i don't mind.
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France12796 Posts
On February 12 2017 07:26 Kafka777 wrote:
To say Terran is in a good spot is an understatement. But this motivates Terran players to play more as they have a very enjoyable time*. As a result you will have more games vs Terran than it would result from race distribution at any given level.
Its not rocket science.
*Excluding Avilo of course.
Zerg is in a better spot tho .
The OP doesn't seem very serious tho
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protoss became very boring in lotv with the chrono changes, my primary reason for quitting
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On February 12 2017 06:13 Poopi wrote:
Why would the OP brag about being GM on NA with mech? :o
This isn't a "brag" post. There are many people better than me at higher levels on NA. The main reason I indicated my MMR and playstyle is for two reasons: 1) Create a point of origin of the types of players I'm playing; meaning someone in Gold or even top 50 GM may not have the same kind of matchups I've been experiencing. 2) Playing only mech is fun but can become very frustrating when all you are doing is playing TvT and having long, drawn out games.
For those of you who think this is a "brag" post use your brains and realize the context of why I need to include this information. If I said, "Dang, I play a lot of TvT" and ended the OP there, that wouldn't be very helpful now would it. But I'm seeing several "troll" posts here attempting to redirect the conversation, which is not constructive.
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On February 12 2017 01:26 bulya wrote:
Its not just about the race distribution, it can be also about which players play frequently and which don't.
Even if we had an equal of 33.3% per race but say Terrnas were playing 3 times more games then a zerg or a porttoss, you have 60% meeting a terran on the ladder just because they play more games even tough the distribution is the same (and it seems like its only 33.3%)..
This is a good point. This is what I was eluding to in my earlier post when a user simply mentioned race distribution totals. How much someone plays can really influence the number of mirror matchups. So it could be a larger variance if, say, the total number of accounts identified as Protoss play half as many games as the accounts identified as Terran.
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A fitting punishment for a mecher player; playing against their own race and being forced into long games.
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On February 12 2017 12:11 xTJx wrote:
A fitting punishment for a mecher player; playing against their own race and being forced into long games.
Touche
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I'm a NA diamond 1 protoss. I only play about 1 or 2 ladder games per week since I get so much bm all the time
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On February 11 2017 22:56 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 18:41 SirPinky wrote:
This is not a balance thread. I'm sure others will see it otherwise, but let me preface this by saying we have Protoss, Zerg and Terran all in the top RO8.
I am more concerned about the lower levels. I am high master low GM Terran. I made GM for all of 3 days this season; I'm about 5200-5300 MMR and I only Mech (vs all 3 races since 2010). I don't like ravens except for early defense. I don't see too much that changed in the last several patches that drastically changed mech or Terran; in fact, the race seems to have stayed the same, if anything from my perspective. So what suddenly changed? Yes, tanks received a damaged increase...but do you see pro players meching TvP? Raven auto turret received a buff, but do you see that changing the game (except TvT). Also, many do not know that the auto turret is EXACTLY the same with the upgrade. Blizzard simply removed the upgrade. So nothing has really changed to influence non-mirror TvT matchups for over a year.
I'm not kidding you, I'd rather not take a screenshot, but I played 12 Terrans in a row tonight. I've played 328 games this season and 140 of them are TvT. This is a 43% ratio of TvT.
Now think to yourself. I'm a mech player, so each game becomes reasonably long (again, I don't Raven). I'm pulling my hair out with frustration. Does anyone else have this ratio with similar MMR or even leagues? I remember ZvZ craft when there was a definitive reason everyone was playing Zerg: This was due to the Queen buff. But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
I really hope to get some feedback from people who decided to switch to Terran because these statistics are not happenstance.
PS. I'm NA Server Terran is in a good spot right now, which is nice to see Btw how are you a GM Terran playing Mech, Avilo and his crew keep saying this is impossible
Mech is in the worst spot it's been in for a long time. Mech is in fact impossible atm due to swarmhosts and carriers.
If you play "mech" right now on this patch you're not playing "mech." You're playing "pray you can make 20 ravens because you die to swarmhost if you don't."
More on-topic:
Blizzard buffed tanks but made swarmhosts unbearable on the same patch, and carriers so there's not much diversity in T play right now, especially at pro level. It's mostly bio lib every game with the odd mech game here and there that people then justify saying "see mech is fine!" when it only worked because they did it as a surprise 1/50 game vs their opponent who never thought they'd use such a terrible strat.
As for balance, it's ridiculous people and casters keep trying to spread that T is OP or overrepresented. Terran play has basically stayed the same for the last 4 yrs, it's just a few high level pro korean T that would own everyone regardless of their race that are dominating, and they happen to be Terran (innovation, maru).
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros.
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On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros.
Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released...
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On February 11 2017 18:52 MockHamill wrote:
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
Running the math on this, using binomial distributions from this online calculator.
P-value for 140/328 terrans at 1/3 probability is 0.02% (one-sided binomial). Would be a freak event, but adding in some multiple hypothesis testing for different matchups, and posting bias (only players with extreme number post a thread), maybe not completely unthinkable.
P-value for 140/328 terrans at 39% probability is 9.5% (one-sided binomial). So roughly one in ten players at this level will face 140 or more terrans over 328 games. Taking the corrections above into account, there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. OP got slightly unlucky and got 12 more TvT than the expected 128, but really nothing too bad. Actually, the p-value for 150/328 is 0.7%, so it is likely that one (or more) player in GM has had 150 games of the last 328 against terran. And around 20 GM players will have also had 140 or more terrans. So OP is in good company.
Summary:
OP got a little bit unlucky with matchups, but this happens to about 10% of players at that level.
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On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released...
What? You live in some strange world where Innovation, Gumiho, Maru weren't already dominated everyone? They have been S Class Terrans for a long time.
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On February 13 2017 16:18 warlocke wrote:
I'm a NA diamond 1 protoss. I only play about 1 or 2 ladder games per week since I get so much bm all the time
Lol your right. When you win with Protoss, you get shit talked. When you lose you down right suck. Too much shit talk playing protoss. Thats why i quit solo too.
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On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released...
this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR.
there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S
like most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again
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Since dawn of times, protoss has been the most hated race. You get so much hate as protoss player and considering how hard time protoss is now having, im not suprised that many have switched race. Or just dont play anymore.
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Well we had race MMR seperated and Terran is just fun a fun fast paced race to play.
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I get over 50% zvz in na gm
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On February 13 2017 17:53 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released... this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR. there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_Slike most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again
We haven't seen Innovation for one year and two months, but just a few weeks after patch 3.8, he becomes the best player of the world ?
Nobody denies he is a good player, but all the top terran suddendly start to no match all the top Protoss and Zerg after the patch ?
Terrans now reign whithout sharing on the SC2 scene, they have won all the premier since the patch, you think it's just P and Z are lazy, and not as skilled as Terrans ?
You won't say that if it was the reverse. Yeah Terran is too strong, the patch has overbuffed them, the mapool is good for them so the game is close to be gomTvT again.
User was warned for this post
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France12796 Posts
On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 22:56 Topdoller wrote:On February 11 2017 18:41 SirPinky wrote:
This is not a balance thread. I'm sure others will see it otherwise, but let me preface this by saying we have Protoss, Zerg and Terran all in the top RO8.
I am more concerned about the lower levels. I am high master low GM Terran. I made GM for all of 3 days this season; I'm about 5200-5300 MMR and I only Mech (vs all 3 races since 2010). I don't like ravens except for early defense. I don't see too much that changed in the last several patches that drastically changed mech or Terran; in fact, the race seems to have stayed the same, if anything from my perspective. So what suddenly changed? Yes, tanks received a damaged increase...but do you see pro players meching TvP? Raven auto turret received a buff, but do you see that changing the game (except TvT). Also, many do not know that the auto turret is EXACTLY the same with the upgrade. Blizzard simply removed the upgrade. So nothing has really changed to influence non-mirror TvT matchups for over a year.
I'm not kidding you, I'd rather not take a screenshot, but I played 12 Terrans in a row tonight. I've played 328 games this season and 140 of them are TvT. This is a 43% ratio of TvT.
Now think to yourself. I'm a mech player, so each game becomes reasonably long (again, I don't Raven). I'm pulling my hair out with frustration. Does anyone else have this ratio with similar MMR or even leagues? I remember ZvZ craft when there was a definitive reason everyone was playing Zerg: This was due to the Queen buff. But please provide a substantial change why there are so many Terrans.
I really hope to get some feedback from people who decided to switch to Terran because these statistics are not happenstance.
PS. I'm NA Server Terran is in a good spot right now, which is nice to see Btw how are you a GM Terran playing Mech, Avilo and his crew keep saying this is impossible Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros.
Shit I think the same but you thinking that as well makes me doubt myself :/.
its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again
Please, not that fighting half BS/half buzzword download thingy in sc2!
I've even seen French casters use it, but it doesn't work like that, it's an easy vulgarization of what really happens between two high level players :/.
As for people saying terran is too strong atm because top players such as INno/Maru/TY dare to win against mid tier P/Z, it's kind of funny :D. But most viewers can't accurately judge players' skills so it should be expected.
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To Avilo and others
I'm amazed with people absolutely wanting mech to be viable at the very top level.
Beside playing SC2 (diamond), I'm also a chess player (around 1700-1800 elo). What I like is to play king gambit as white because I like the rythm of it, I like to make sacrifices over tempo. BUT this opening is considered as black favored. I'm not going to any forum saying this opening should be buffed.
I know if I continue playing this, I'll be blocked at a certain level where everyone will know how to effectively counter it. If I wanna get higher I adapt to the game (not the contrary) and learn how to play it to win.
However, I play to have fun, so this isn't going to happen soon.
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Well you have about 40% TvT of all Games you played recently. While having a Race Distribution in your MMR Range of about 40% T and 60% not T everything seems okay.
Minor Variations from the Perfect Split according to the exact Race Distribution are Probably caused by limitations of variance due to queing up in the ladder on certain times (on average).
I assume you don't play 24/7. so there may be a unknown Schedule reason that makes more Terrans que up at the same Time you play.
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avilo's law: any sc2 thread eventually ends up being about buffing mech.
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Protoss is not fun to play. You're very limited in what you can realistically do at the beginning of the game.
So a bunch of us have stopped playing. Hence the Protoss numbers. Maybe after this latest patch PvT will be a little bit more fun and they'll come back.
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Answer: MAP CHOICE
It's quite obvious. The answer is map choice. Most of the players playing you (or not playing you, as you will see shortly) do ban up to 3 maps on a regular basis. Now let's be generous and say you banned one map, while Zerg and Protoss players on average ban only one map considered their least good. (Maybe not bad, just not the best.) Suppose, for calculations' sake, that every zerg & toss bann a map their race likes to ban. Then by very rough mathematics, you will encounter 33% x (6/7)^2 = 25% protoss, 25% zerg - that's EVEN IF THE RACES WERE EVENLY DISTRIBUTED. Now, if you don't ban maps, and if players pick maps more interestingly, obviously this fraction moves towards 30% ish. That's why you should expect to play 2/5 of your matches mirror-matchup-wise.
One more thing:
BTW, mirror match repulsion is what keeps the distributions even, even if races are not balanced. People avoid joining the Bigger race's club because then you have to play more mirror matches.
If you find this comment helpful, please mark your post as answered and make a thread where you put this in your own words. I think this is a concept that everyone should be aware of.
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On February 13 2017 18:07 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Since dawn of times, protoss has been the most hated race. You get so much hate as protoss player and considering how hard time protoss is now having, im not suprised that many have switched race. Or just dont play anymore.
This.
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On February 14 2017 10:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 18:07 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Since dawn of times, protoss has been the most hated race. You get so much hate as protoss player and considering how hard time protoss is now having, im not suprised that many have switched race. Or just dont play anymore. This.
I have stopped playing and I know another friend of mine who switched from P to T.
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Funny to me seeing so much Terran everywhere, and people getting so many TvT's particularly on NA which was always Zerg a-move Heaven. Terran used to be so hard to play, probably still is if you go bio. I'd never get TvT's in Masters or Diamond.
Surprised at so few protoss, although I haven't played in so long. I get that some protoss are probably fed up with people bitching nonstop, although I always used to feed off tears when playing Protoss.
User was warned for this post
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On February 14 2017 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 17:53 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released... this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR. there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_Slike most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again We haven't seen Innovation for one year and two months, but just a few weeks after patch 3.8, he becomes the best player of the world ? Nobody denies he is a good player, but all the top terran suddendly start to no match all the top Protoss and Zerg after the patch ? Terrans now reign whithout sharing on the SC2 scene, they have won all the premier since the patch, you think it's just P and Z are lazy, and not as skilled as Terrans ? You won't say that if it was the reverse. Yeah Terran is too strong, the patch has overbuffed them, the mapool is good for them so the game is close to be gomTvT again. User was warned for this post
Rofl, why are the only people complaining about Terran getting reported and warnings while the Terran users that manage to balance whine (Avilo, MockHamill) not getting reported / warnings? (I got reported earlier for a similar post as his). Do Terran TL users just report anyone that ask for a nerf on their race? This is getting ridiculous. Watch this post get reported too.
Only thing I ask is for equal treatment for the users. It's your house and your rules but if someone gets punished for X while others don't get punished for X, that's not cool.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 14 2017 12:45 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 17:53 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released... this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR. there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_Slike most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again We haven't seen Innovation for one year and two months, but just a few weeks after patch 3.8, he becomes the best player of the world ? Nobody denies he is a good player, but all the top terran suddendly start to no match all the top Protoss and Zerg after the patch ? Terrans now reign whithout sharing on the SC2 scene, they have won all the premier since the patch, you think it's just P and Z are lazy, and not as skilled as Terrans ? You won't say that if it was the reverse. Yeah Terran is too strong, the patch has overbuffed them, the mapool is good for them so the game is close to be gomTvT again. User was warned for this post Rofl, why are the only people complaining about Terran getting reported and warnings while the Terran users that manage to balance whine (Avilo, MockHamill) not getting reported / warnings? (I got reported earlier for a similar post as his). Do Terran TL users just report anyone that ask for a nerf on their race? This is getting ridiculous. Watch this post get reported too. Only thing I ask is for equal treatment for the users. It's your house and your rules but if someone gets punished for X while others don't get punished for X, that's not cool.
Please take any concerns you have regarding moderation to website feedback.
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There’s no such thing as too much of a good thing, at least when it comes to diversifying media. Hollywood remains light years behind the ethnographic makeup of the US and industry leaders have, for years, used a variety of different excuses to hide their money-hungry, “safe” and downright racist decisions in casting actors of color for film and television roles.
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On February 11 2017 19:02 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2017 18:52 MockHamill wrote:
NA GM:
40% Zerg
21% Protoss
39% Teran
NA Master:
36% Zerg
23% Protoss
36% Terran
So what happened to you is the law of large number. It is likely that unlikely things will happens when the numbers gets large enough.
I could look at numbers all day, but there is a difference between analyzing numbers and engaging a community.
So what you're saying is: your - likely exaggerated - anecdote trumps proper statistics?
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On February 14 2017 12:45 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 17:53 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released... this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR. there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_Slike most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again We haven't seen Innovation for one year and two months, but just a few weeks after patch 3.8, he becomes the best player of the world ? Nobody denies he is a good player, but all the top terran suddendly start to no match all the top Protoss and Zerg after the patch ? Terrans now reign whithout sharing on the SC2 scene, they have won all the premier since the patch, you think it's just P and Z are lazy, and not as skilled as Terrans ? You won't say that if it was the reverse. Yeah Terran is too strong, the patch has overbuffed them, the mapool is good for them so the game is close to be gomTvT again. User was warned for this post Rofl, why are the only people complaining about Terran getting reported and warnings while the Terran users that manage to balance whine (Avilo, MockHamill) not getting reported / warnings? (I got reported earlier for a similar post as his). Do Terran TL users just report anyone that ask for a nerf on their race? This is getting ridiculous. Watch this post get reported too. Only thing I ask is for equal treatment for the users. It's your house and your rules but if someone gets punished for X while others don't get punished for X, that's not cool.
TL community has always been pretty Terran favored like that
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On February 14 2017 18:44 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2017 12:45 parkufarku wrote:On February 14 2017 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 17:53 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 13 2017 17:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On February 13 2017 16:32 avilo wrote:
Can't really name any S tier players from Z/P other than Dark that pops to my head the rest of their respective races don't stand out or dominate. I know some people hate to read this or don't accept it but - the Terrans at the top are just simply better players than a lot of the Z/P pros. Yeah, and it's just a coincidence if they all become together best players of the world after the patch 3.8 released... this is a retarded conversation but i have to say that these players were rated extremely high in the KR ladder and in the top leagues of KR. there are plenty of top Protoss and zergs, all avilo has to do is follow this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_Slike most ppl predicted, innovation and TY both rekt their groups. if you check their profiles on gm you will also see that they are playing a massive amount of games, something like 50 + per day. ask yourself, what is the difference between a player like Inno/TY and a terran like Cure/jjakji who got manhandled in their group with Leenock and Dark? if you watched the games and removed the player names, i really doubt you could tell the difference between a player like cure and a player like innovation just from how they play, because they play so similar and both so well. but cure dropped from his group and TY/inno continue to make it look easy when other terrans fail. its not a terran vs zerg problem, its an innovation/TY vs zerg problem. when these zergs step it up, get better and download innovation, you will see that the matchup becomes tvz again We haven't seen Innovation for one year and two months, but just a few weeks after patch 3.8, he becomes the best player of the world ? Nobody denies he is a good player, but all the top terran suddendly start to no match all the top Protoss and Zerg after the patch ? Terrans now reign whithout sharing on the SC2 scene, they have won all the premier since the patch, you think it's just P and Z are lazy, and not as skilled as Terrans ? You won't say that if it was the reverse. Yeah Terran is too strong, the patch has overbuffed them, the mapool is good for them so the game is close to be gomTvT again. User was warned for this post Rofl, why are the only people complaining about Terran getting reported and warnings while the Terran users that manage to balance whine (Avilo, MockHamill) not getting reported / warnings? (I got reported earlier for a similar post as his). Do Terran TL users just report anyone that ask for a nerf on their race? This is getting ridiculous. Watch this post get reported too. Only thing I ask is for equal treatment for the users. It's your house and your rules but if someone gets punished for X while others don't get punished for X, that's not cool. TL community has always been pretty Terran favored like that
Even Reddit too. Tos is just a minority
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Germany25657 Posts
Locking this because this thread is 4 pages of yuck.
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EPT
