• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:54
CEST 18:54
KST 01:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 20259Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced26BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update EWC 2025 - Replay Pack #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Afreeca app available on Samsung smart TV Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
How many questions are in the Publix survey?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 620 users

Community Feedback Update - December 15 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
usopsama
Profile Joined April 2008
6502 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-16 19:21:42
December 16 2016 19:21 GMT
#61
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16701 Posts
December 16 2016 22:00 GMT
#62
On December 17 2016 03:25 Beelzebub1 wrote:
All of these constant changes are keeping me from wanting to play this game lol, i want to play the final incarnation of this balance patch not the in between where David is making everything that was underused imbalanced as fuck and then slowly dialing it down.

diverse race RTS games take a long time to balance. with the game being reset after BlizzCon it'll take a while before LotV is balanced.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-16 22:30:35
December 16 2016 22:28 GMT
#63
Carriers are broken now. There is basically no way for Terran to defeat a Carrier fleet, especially if they go Carrier/Void Ray if you try to go BC.

Carriers need less hit points or to cost 8 supply, they are simply too supply efficient against everything. They are basically the only unit in the game that are so strong that they really have no counter unit.
owlman
Profile Joined August 2009
France58 Posts
December 16 2016 23:22 GMT
#64
did you ever tried mass bc vs carrier ? cos BC rapes both voidray and carrier
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
December 16 2016 23:39 GMT
#65
Actually carriers aren't an issue if there's less than 10-12 of them in TvP.

The tempest is still the problem. The 15/10 range makes the tempest basically the same. Terran late game got buffed, but it's near impossible to get to that point where you've got full raven/BC. Mainly because when the first couple tempests are out, protoss can start to siege your bases while BCs are quite terrible before you got 6+ of them.

About the changes, they're fast, and tiny. I like it a lot, i think blizz should tweak the game very often to prevent abusive strats from plaguing the game. However, they should also focus on design issues (with the help of the test map functionnality), for instance pylon overcharge, SHs versus mech, vipers/ravens dynamic making MechvZ very turtly (unless you go for an extreme timing like innovation did against dark), or the adept still being both abusive and gamble-y with the shade vision nerf.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
December 16 2016 23:44 GMT
#66
We're seeing these quick changes because it's the off season. They'll likely slow down when next year rolls around with the first ladder and WCS seasons.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
December 17 2016 03:24 GMT
#67
On December 17 2016 08:39 JackONeill wrote:
Actually carriers aren't an issue if there's less than 10-12 of them in TvP.

The tempest is still the problem. The 15/10 range makes the tempest basically the same. Terran late game got buffed, but it's near impossible to get to that point where you've got full raven/BC. Mainly because when the first couple tempests are out, protoss can start to siege your bases while BCs are quite terrible before you got 6+ of them.

About the changes, they're fast, and tiny. I like it a lot, i think blizz should tweak the game very often to prevent abusive strats from plaguing the game. However, they should also focus on design issues (with the help of the test map functionnality), for instance pylon overcharge, SHs versus mech, vipers/ravens dynamic making MechvZ very turtly (unless you go for an extreme timing like innovation did against dark), or the adept still being both abusive and gamble-y with the shade vision nerf.


To my understanding, unlike bio, mech is about longer games unless the early pushes which are necessary with mech end the game entirely. So there is nothing wrong with long mech games.

I guess inno's mech plan isn't clear to him beyond the Tank switch, so he keeps with his helion cyclone pushes, securing his bases with tanks. But there are phases beyond that, at which the terran secures 4 bases (with tanks and turrets), and the game goes to the following stages which take a very long time.
This is how mech works, I don't think it can be changed that much, as mech relies on a slower army which is hard to break when it is seiged, and can be leapfrogged and take better engagements so that its fine if the zerg is on 6 or 7 bases while the terran is on 4.

Just played a zerg vs mech game today (as a zerg player), eventually it was decided on the air battle (raven, viking, liberator vs corruptor viper) while his bases were secured. I guess I didn't realize how much dead space there is on Echo. But at some point he didn't have mining at all and still won the game. Very patiently, all the bases sieged to the point I can hardly touch them, and the hydra viper vs his air was in his supreriority, my corroptor switch was too late, as I didn't have enough gas by this time.

This is how mech works, 30 minute games...
If it doesn't suit you, its the time to switch back to bio, as it is just as good, but the game is completely different.

As the zerg, I'm fine with both games, as both mech an bio require skill, but many mech players on the ladder just make something which seems as a dathball, a moving into me and die to simple things like complete surrounds of lings on the thors/tanks, hydra swarm hosts enaging to not that much protected sieged places, or hydra viper compositions trading well enough while I own the map and the terran has at most 4 bases. The games I lose vs mech are either short due to a successful early push (helion cyclone, or hellbat into banshees), or very long games which gets to the terran having his bases secured and an air fleet (ravens viking and libs if there is enough dead space) which trades well with the hydra viper. These games go through many stages, which is why it is skill based (for both, the terran and the zerg).
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
December 17 2016 08:04 GMT
#68
On December 16 2016 23:32 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2016 23:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On December 16 2016 22:18 Tuczniak wrote:
Pretty funny patch.

Interceptor cost is really bad way of changing carriers. It only moves the boundary between "not worth the risk of turtling into" and "easy turtle for easy win". It changes nothing about how strong carriers are when you get enough of them, which has to be addressed for the unit to be used in good games. .


I disagree with this. In SC2 we are used to having a "balanced" answer to any unit being massed at any time. Full 200supply of carriers should be countered by x. I think this is wrong as it leads to boring games as no matter what the enemy is doing, you can always, especially as Zerg, bring the perfect counter, and so the "timings" game gets lost and the "one big fight" gets promoted. This is especially problematic against Protoss and Terran mech.

Transitioning to Carriers, building and rebuilding interceptors, etc is a really cool dinaminc IMO for a counter. Taking advantage of the weakness of what a full Carrier transition means is what makes games fun IMO, and not 200 vs200 10seconds fights.

The almost free interceptos were and are a bad idea IMO because you can no longer starve a P player that uses Carriers but are forced to bring the "counter" to kill them cost efficiently.


Of course we dont want one 10 sec fight but this has nothign to do with what he is talking about. The game would be the most fun if it would be worth to mix in like 4 carriers because they have a specific role, instead of massing carriers and making it hard for the opponent to do anything.
For most players it is no fun to try to win the game before it is impossible (sure it is possible but the chances are low).
Take for example tvp in HotS. That was definetly no fun for both sides from the midgame on (which lead to scv timing win or fail).
[/url]
I disagree with that too. This add a little of that, and a little of this, is what created deathballs and it's the Browder school of design for RTS that is completely at odds with what Starcraft was and should be.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Liquid`Snute
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Norway839 Posts
December 17 2016 09:21 GMT
#69
I think these changes are good actually, +5 hp buff on speedbanes on lair is still pretty strong and hopefully ling bane remains viable vs bio. Very gentle and decent changes. ps: if interceptors cost 10 minerals, I'm 90% sure byul would've won vs stats on habitation station playing ultra hydra queen viper with minimal spore support, idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

But I'm sure on average, 10 minerals should be better than 5. The reddit thread linked earlier was also interesting.

Would've loved to see a higher quantity of issues addressed rather than just these two, but aside from that, good update
Team Liquid
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
December 17 2016 09:30 GMT
#70
On December 17 2016 18:21 Liquid`Snute wrote:
I think these changes are good actually, +5 hp buff on speedbanes on lair is still pretty strong and hopefully ling bane remains viable vs bio. Very gentle and decent changes. ps: if interceptors cost 10 minerals, I'm 90% sure byul would've won vs stats on habitation station playing ultra hydra queen viper with minimal spore support, idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

But I'm sure on average, 10 minerals should be better than 5. The reddit thread linked earlier was also interesting.

Would've loved to see a higher quantity of issues addressed rather than just these two, but aside from that, good update

what's your opinion on burrow-fungal?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Liquid`Snute
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Norway839 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-17 09:59:40
December 17 2016 09:56 GMT
#71
On December 17 2016 18:30 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2016 18:21 Liquid`Snute wrote:
I think these changes are good actually, +5 hp buff on speedbanes on lair is still pretty strong and hopefully ling bane remains viable vs bio. Very gentle and decent changes. ps: if interceptors cost 10 minerals, I'm 90% sure byul would've won vs stats on habitation station playing ultra hydra queen viper with minimal spore support, idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

But I'm sure on average, 10 minerals should be better than 5. The reddit thread linked earlier was also interesting.

Would've loved to see a higher quantity of issues addressed rather than just these two, but aside from that, good update

what's your opinion on burrow-fungal?

I don't have that much experience with it in practice and haven't seen it much in pro games (early weakness indicator) but in theory I'd imagine it's all about the siege tanks. Tanks normally destroy Infestors above ground whereas all other interactions/compositions aren't really that different post change aside from demanding extra anticipation/detection/splits from all races. Roach ravager infestor is stronger with infestors burrowed but siege tanks are still very strong against that composition and Infestors are still pretty paper once their energy is spent. EDIT: what i mean is important here is that thanks to the burrow change one can now fungal vs tanks BEFORE engagement, rather than immediately after the grand ling bane amove initiation.

I don't play ling bane sharkfestor/ultralisk and haven't seen it much in high level play so it's hard to judge how that does vs something like marine tank thor (burrow neural+fungal sounds strong on paper here). I've read plenty of complaints from people about invisible infestors with death fungals, but a lot of the time those games were lost anyway and it was just a more of a negative memory on top of losses. I've seen a lot of terrans use forward turrets and widow mines in combination to great effect vs both burrowed infestors and overseers, so that's kinda cool i think, as long as it's not too expensive.

imo the infestor is still in a weird spot and it's very hard to judge its actual strength, but i'd be very hesitant to call it strong or overpowered, or extremely weak. it's somewhere in between in a mysterious spot - so far I think it's not the worst of buffs, the Infestor really needed some help before and is still a very expensive unit [image loading]
Team Liquid
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
December 17 2016 10:10 GMT
#72
thanks for the answer
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
DeadByDawn
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom476 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-17 12:20:48
December 17 2016 12:17 GMT
#73
On December 16 2016 21:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2016 19:20 avilo wrote:
Interceptor should be reverted to 25 minerals. Carriers are ridiculous atm.

Did you learn from the Innovation games how to play mech without turtling to mass Ravens and use actual timings?

A few days back I tuned into Avilo - he was whining that his opponent was trying to play like Inno, but that what people don't realize is that Inno is a noob. That's right - a noob. So I guess he has nothing to learn from Inno.

And amusingly as the Twitch stream started the first two words that I heard were 'map hacker'.

I prefer 15 mineral cost to interceptors, 5 was basically free and I hate the free units that can encourage turtle.
Scrubwave
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland1786 Posts
December 17 2016 13:24 GMT
#74
--- Nuked ---
jimjimmie
Profile Joined December 2016
13 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-18 06:53:12
December 18 2016 06:52 GMT
#75
i don't think banelings are problematic. burrowed fungal is more problematic.
also i hope some nerf to cyclone's anti-ground and buff to cyclone's anti-air
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-18 20:33:49
December 18 2016 20:32 GMT
#76
On December 17 2016 07:28 MockHamill wrote:
Carriers are broken now. There is basically no way for Terran to defeat a Carrier fleet, especially if they go Carrier/Void Ray if you try to go BC.

Carriers need less hit points or to cost 8 supply, they are simply too supply efficient against everything. They are basically the only unit in the game that are so strong that they really have no counter unit.


Even if that's the case at what point is Protoss going to be able to transition to carriers without being punished. If Terran can't stop Protoss during such a transition they are probably behind enoughbthat the game is lost anyway.

I don't think there's an issue with carriers in tvp, but there is one in zvp hence the need for nerfs.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
NutriaKaiN
Profile Joined June 2016
88 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-19 02:07:49
December 19 2016 02:02 GMT
#77
On December 16 2016 08:19 Shield wrote:
Patch still doesn't make me excited to play 1vs1 as protoss.


No Patch since 10 years do this.

There is 2 ways to play pvz: carrier or 2-3 eco/base allin. Because you cant play a normal macro game.
Stalkers are totaly crap except for allin.

All other compositions gets beaten by ling/bane/hydra or ravager.
You have to max out vs that style to push and even then you can lose the game easily,
the zerg can play this style for years.
Not sure blizzard noticed it after 3 tournaments all protoss plays dt drop into allin or carrier haha.

This post with core units is pretty annoying. Blizzard called zerg have 3 core units, protoss only 1?
Stalker isnt a real one because they are way to cost ineffective.

But i have a solution, buff zerg like the last time.
Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
December 19 2016 02:24 GMT
#78
On December 19 2016 11:02 NutriaKaiN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2016 08:19 Shield wrote:
Patch still doesn't make me excited to play 1vs1 as protoss.


No Patch since 10 years do this.

There is 2 ways to play pvz: carrier or 2-3 eco/base allin. Because you cant play a normal macro game.
Stalkers are totaly crap except for allin.

All other compositions gets beaten by ling/bane/hydra or ravager.
You have to max out vs that style to push and even then you can lose the game easily,
the zerg can play this style for years.
Not sure blizzard noticed it after 3 tournaments all protoss plays dt drop into allin or carrier haha.

This post with core units is pretty annoying. Blizzard called zerg have 3 core units, protoss only 1?
Stalker isnt a real one because they are way to cost ineffective.

But i have a solution, buff zerg like the last time.



Protoss are playing archon drop into archon immo chargelot all in because it's extremely strong, not because they don't dare playing the long macro game.

If you can win in 10 minutes why bother playing a 20 minutes game?
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
The_Last_Terran
Profile Joined December 2016
9 Posts
December 19 2016 11:14 GMT
#79
On December 18 2016 15:52 jimjimmie wrote:
i don't think banelings are problematic. burrowed fungal is more problematic.
also i hope some nerf to cyclone's anti-ground and buff to cyclone's anti-air


Burrow fungal looks a good idea but the synergy with banelings and ultras is quite strong if terran doesn t split previously his marines and marauders.

I would like to see the infestor emerge from the soil and cast the fungal automatically so you have a small chance to split your marines. It looks like to the instant fungal problem we got in WoL which has been improved to allow terran to split.

Then i disagree for the cyclone anti air damage. There is already Thor for counter air.

The only problem of the cyclone come from his cost supply.
One factory is equal to three barracks, so timings of Mech player are stronger than Bio player which is literally opposing of mind Terran.

You can t add an unit without impacting meta game but this one change everything terran is used to play since WoL.




NutriaKaiN
Profile Joined June 2016
88 Posts
December 19 2016 11:33 GMT
#80
On December 19 2016 11:24 Gwavajuice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2016 11:02 NutriaKaiN wrote:
On December 16 2016 08:19 Shield wrote:
Patch still doesn't make me excited to play 1vs1 as protoss.


No Patch since 10 years do this.

There is 2 ways to play pvz: carrier or 2-3 eco/base allin. Because you cant play a normal macro game.
Stalkers are totaly crap except for allin.

All other compositions gets beaten by ling/bane/hydra or ravager.
You have to max out vs that style to push and even then you can lose the game easily,
the zerg can play this style for years.
Not sure blizzard noticed it after 3 tournaments all protoss plays dt drop into allin or carrier haha.

This post with core units is pretty annoying. Blizzard called zerg have 3 core units, protoss only 1?
Stalker isnt a real one because they are way to cost ineffective.

But i have a solution, buff zerg like the last time.



Protoss are playing archon drop into archon immo chargelot all in because it's extremely strong, not because they don't dare playing the long macro game.

If you can win in 10 minutes why bother playing a 20 minutes game?


the biggest lie i heard. in all tourneys all the time you see only 2 builds you cant really play s talker without allin. the other comps get destroyed by hydra ling bane etc.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 475
mcanning 222
RotterdaM 195
UpATreeSC 42
ForJumy 33
EmSc Tv 30
MindelVK 6
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 2207
Barracks 1292
Stork 909
Mini 813
EffOrt 697
Soma 497
Nal_rA 385
Larva 379
Snow 268
Hyun 248
[ Show more ]
ZerO 187
yabsab 186
Mind 171
Rush 141
Killer 92
soO 92
Sharp 76
Movie 63
Free 34
sSak 33
scan(afreeca) 26
sorry 23
Terrorterran 22
eros_byul 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7330
qojqva3911
League of Legends
Dendi1093
Counter-Strike
fl0m3985
markeloff521
sgares446
flusha370
Other Games
singsing1448
B2W.Neo812
Lowko326
Fuzer 88
Trikslyr76
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 30
EmSc2Tv 30
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH129
• davetesta51
• tFFMrPink 16
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4518
• masondota2690
League of Legends
• Nemesis4533
• Jankos1193
• TFBlade1117
Other Games
• Shiphtur349
Upcoming Events
RotterdaM Event
6m
RotterdaM195
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 6m
WardiTV European League
23h 6m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 7h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 23h
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.