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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On November 28 2016 05:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: I didn't watch the video though, not interested to watch a french video when the person is european and could have done an english video instead. What a stupid reason. Let me remind you that Europe is a continent of independent countries not British/Australian/American colonies. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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Sound1
France93 Posts
I played RTS for about 20 years (Im 33). Dune, C&C serie, AOE serie, Wrcraft serie, SC ofc...and I try to remind myself if an RTS made the history. I mean in terms of popularity, units sold, e-sport,...etc Probably Brood War is the best RTS ever made, but behind it, no other one marked its time. (I exclude WC3 away from classical RTS). As I read in this topic, it is very hard to play a 1v1 RTS game. No talk about balance issues, I think SC2 is huge in terms of balance in compared of others olders games (C&C balance is a joke, nations in AOE are very similar except maybe in AOM). So, just about kind of game, it is so hard to master it that a lot of players leave it. For me, SC2 is not a dead game... it is just it has never been alive  I mean 2010-2012 were fun years : big MLG events, Korea switch from BW to SC2, a lot of teams, a lot of players. But since then (probably HOTS release) sc2 popularity drops month after month. Unfortunatly, I started to play sc2 at the end of 2012 so I can saw its decline. It makes me so sad cause I think it is the best RTS have ever played. | ||
Poopi
France12758 Posts
On November 28 2016 05:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: I didn't watch the video though, not interested to watch a french video when the person is european and could have done an english video instead. Only europeans can make english videos? :o. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
They think game is too difficult. Its the game that koreans dominate. Too difficult game to enjoy. People enjoy playing more easy games like dota and csgo | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
I completely agree that the sc2 multiplayer should've been f2p already and I really hope they will announce it in 2017 finally, otherwise the future is not looking good for sc2. That Blizzard waits too long to make changes when the gameplay gets stale is by now just a fact imo, but I think they have become more open to community feedback at least! I do not agree that sc2 esports is already dead, I still see new players asking for advice on reddit each and every day and I think players will still be able to be progamers in 2017. But we really need f2p and more frequent changes to get more players, or I'm not too sure about WCS 2018. The lack of LotV basic tutorials is a good point btw, it feels weird that I have to recommend videos from WoL or HotS to new players when they ask how to learn sc2. I wished a big community figure would start making new tutorials that cover the complete basics, like FilterSC's Bronze to Masters series. Bonjwa is actually doing a great job, but it's a german site . On top of that we also need ingame tutorials and build orders I think!Still, I hope that WCS 2017 will soon be announced and will be amazing. Then I hope sc2 will go f2p next year! If anything, BlizzCon showed us that in theory there is still interest in sc2, Blizzard just has to take the next step. Oh yea and Deepmind vs sc2 pros will be exciting! | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On November 28 2016 05:09 Poopi wrote: If I understand correctly he is talking about the esport death of sc2, not the death of sc2, which would translate into empty ladder and stuff like that (and that isn't the case in 1v1). Since there are real signs and consequences of decline/death (end of proleague, new WCS induced retirements, star players retirement, teams disbanding) there is actually something to talk about right now. I didn't watch the video but I'm pretty sure it isn't about daed game memes, it's probably thoughtful. This is exactly my video, especially the conclusion. On November 28 2016 05:18 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Regardless of what specific aspect of the game he's talking about and if there are signs of it or not, we need to stop using the words dead and death. When casuals start spamming that shit everywhere because some one told them SC2 died then it has a real effect on SC2 We shouldn't be afraid of words. Many people talk about Starcraft being a dead game. I think it is important to understand what it means exactly. Short version : Starcraft e-sport = dead Starcraft = alive On November 28 2016 06:08 stuchiu wrote: Interesting video so far. I am happy to hear that from someone a lot more experienced than me in this area  On November 28 2016 05:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Can we talk about the fact that the subtitles are transparent, which makes them ridiculously difficult to read. Can someone just sum up his points in the video? I know SC2 should have been released with ingame chat as he says, but SC2 was on top of the world when it didn't have ingame chat, that was not the reason for the decline. You are the first one to report this problem so I checked the subtitles again but I don't see your problem. I see subtitles in white surrounded with a black rectangle so I don't really know what you are talking about. I am sorry this is the first time I put subtitles on a video, I must have missed something | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On November 28 2016 05:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: I didn't watch the video though, not interested to watch a french video when the person is european and could have done an english video instead. Umm?... I could understand this: I didn't watch the video though, not interested to watch a *insert language* video when the person is american and could have done an english video instead. But not "european" part at all. Or you have way too high expectations how good english europeans outside northern europe speak. I rather watch in french and have correct subtitles than watch somebody trying to explain in broken english or language is limiting what he wants to say. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
Just one example: You list that LoL had a lot of changes and SC2 had very little and that that is sad. I remember just a few days ago people complained along multiple pages that SC2 saw too many changes. Honestly I'm getting tired of this debate. Don't get me wrong FireCake, it's a good video. But reading so many contradictory statements, wishes and "reason for the downfall" is just annoying at this point. Also, what's the point? Blizzard has shown that they won't drastically change the game. They have a fixed direction that they will contine to follow. They don't really care about the korean scene dying, or at least not enough to jump the gun on decisions. They will still take it slow. There's nothing we can do at this point. LoL, Overwatch and the other games will continue to dominate. Dead game memes will continue to exist, players will retire, teams will disband. People need to like a game's core. Many people find the core off-putting. Nothing will change that - no amount of balance changes, no amount of tweaks. You'd need to change SC2's core to make it appeal to an audience that praises Overwatch and LoL. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:36 KeksX wrote: Your video raises many good points and people agree here. But some people that agree with you here have been saying the complete opposite in other threads. Just one example: You list that LoL had a lot of changes and SC2 had very little and that that is sad. I remember just a few days ago where people complained along multiple pages that SC2 saw too many changes. Honestly I'm getting tired of this debate. Don't get me wrong FireCake, it's a good video. But reading so many contradictory statements, wishes and "reason for the downfall" is just annoying at this point. Also, what's the point? Blizzard has shown that they won't drastically change the game. They have a fixed direction that they will contine to follow. They don't really care about the korean scene dying, or at least not enough to jump the gun on decisions. They will still take it slow. There's nothing we can do at this point. LoL, Overwatch and the other games will continue to dominate, SC2 will continue to shrink. Maybe the reason Blizzard aren't doing anything is because they're too busy pushing Overwatch? It seems popular now, so I don't know. Either way, there are many reasons why SC2 isn't doing well. BW is also a hard game but UMS (Arcade in SC2) is noob friendly. I think if Arcade was more developed, that would have helped to keep casual players. Let's remember that SC2 didn't have Arcade for so long... its predecessor was mediocre. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:39 Shield wrote: Maybe the reason Blizzard aren't doing anything is because they're too busy pushing Overwatch? It seems popular now, so I don't know. Either way, there are many reasons why SC2 isn't doing well. BW is also a hard game but UMS (Arcade in SC2) is noob friendly. I think if Arcade was more developed, that would have helped to keep casual players. One scenario I like to tell/ask people: Imagine you had won a lottery ticket for reddit. Everyone on reddit sees one post you make. Blizzard just pushed a balance patch that fixed all issues mentioned by the community. So you decide to post the balance patch and tell people how much more awesome SC2 is now. Do you think people would actually stop playing Overwatch, League Of Legends, DotA2, Counter Strike: GO because of that? And start playing SC2? Who honestly believes that imbalances, map issues or things like that are the issue? (Most) People just don't want to play SC2. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On November 28 2016 05:48 BronzeKnee wrote: Can we talk about the fact that the subtitles are transparent, which makes them ridiculously difficult to read. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yex1TsL.jpg) If you cant read this you should see a doctor. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:23 Poopi wrote: Only europeans can make english videos? :o. No but if you limit yourself as a central european by making it french when you really should be able to do it in english then i am not wasting my time by watching a 40 minute video with subtitles. If the same video would be made by a korean i would be able to understand why it's not in english and give the person the benefit of the doubt. In this case it's simply annoying. That doesn't mean that only the western world can make english videos, but i expect it here, yes. Just like TL expects us to write in english. edit: video format, or rather audio is beautiful because you can get the information while doing something else. It's slow, but at least i can listen to it while playing sc2 for example. A written text would be superior, but not when i have to watch a 40 minute video On November 28 2016 06:06 Shield wrote: What a stupid reason. Let me remind you that Europe is a continent of independent countries not British/Australian/American colonies. I probably worded it badly, but yeah sure i expect europeans to be able to do their content in english for the most part. I don't expect him to be as eloquent as a native speaker, but that's not even necessary. At the same time i get that he probably didn't do it for an english speaking audience in the first place, but if he really wants to get his ideas out there it would be way better do make a new english video instead. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
People were asking for LAN for years and they refused to implement it. People asked to add the ability to watch games in progress or rejoin games as an observer, and they refused. People asked for them to add microtransactions, and they took until this year to do so. People asked for a revamp of the economy (Double Harvest) and David Kim shrugged it aside. People asked for a fix to blatant imbalances and crap design and they ignored everything and watched viewer counts tumble. Meanwhile other games that actually listened to their community thrived while SC2 fell by the wayside. Blizzard deserves every ounce of hate they get from the community for how they handled the game. This game could have been amazing to this day had Blizzard not ignored the community. Now they pretend that they care but they clearly still don't, and even then it's too little too late. | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
There are also intangibles like how much a lack of structure in the tournament format hurt SC2 in the early years. Could it have solidified a following if WCS was made earlier? That's something people think was part of the cause. There's also the fact that it's hard for us to dissect the problem since we don't have viewing numbers across all of the years for SC2 and other esports games to compare and then compare/contrast what happened in detail. But since the main thrust of the argument is gameplay (rightly so, since that's your expertise) there is something else that should be considered beyond strategic depth. That is also tactical depth. Despite Bio tank vs muta/ling/bling being played out longer than most strategies in SC2's history, it still remains exciting and interesting when it is played out. If I had to guess I think it's because the matchup is one of the best at revealing the type of player a person is. For instance, if I asked you to describe Polt, INnoVation, Taeja, Gumiho and Dream's BiovZ play, you'd end with 5 very different answers despite all 5 using the same units. Polt is very base-trade heavy, INnoVation is the pure MMMM push to it's highest level of play, Taeja plays the slowest most measured late game, Gumiho played the extreme harassment with the most split forces. Dream was a combination of INnoVation's extreme push style with Taeja's map awareness. LotV could be hurting from a lack of tactical depth as well as strategic depth. These are initial thoughts, I haven't sat down to really research any of it. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:49 The_Red_Viper wrote: No but if you limit yourself as a central european by making it french when you really should be able to do it in english then i am not wasting my time by watching a 40 minute video with subtitles. If the same video would be made by a korean i would be able to understand why it's not in english and give the person the benefit of the doubt. In this case it's simply annoying. That doesn't mean that only the western world can make english videos, but i expect it here, yes. Just like TL expects us to write in english. I don't understand this, if it is easier to make his point in his own language he should do it in that language. Doing a 40 minutes speech in another language is super hard, there is no need to do a mediocre video in English if you can make a good one in french. It's way easier for us to read subtitle for us then for him to do a video in English. | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:51 Solar424 wrote: The main reason SC2 failed as an Esport is that Blizzard straight up refused to listen to the community for years, and by the time they did it was too late. People were asking for LAN for years and they refused to implement it. People asked to add the ability to watch games in progress or rejoin games as an observer, and they refused. People asked for them to add microtransactions, and they took until this year to do so. People asked for a revamp of the economy (Double Harvest) and David Kim shrugged it aside. People asked for a fix to blatant imbalances and crap design and they ignored everything and watched viewer counts tumble. Meanwhile other games that actually listened to their community thrived while SC2 fell by the wayside. Blizzard deserves every ounce of hate they get from the community for how they handled the game. This game could have been amazing to this day had Blizzard not ignored the community. Now they pretend that they care but they clearly still don't, and even then it's too little too late. Not only that you have zero proof that these are actually the reasons, we have enough indicators that show that they aren't. Other games are missing key features to date and are not affected by it. I mean hell, Riot announced a replay system how long ago? And then again this october? Not sure if they even have it now. StarCraft II did a lot of things right. It helped kickstart the streamer scene and it was a role model for many new eSports titles. When CS:GO was still a bullshit game, StarCraft II already had a huge following that was spoiled by nice features. At some point we need to finally realize that the core game is the issue here. "Frustrating, mechanically and mentally challenging game that will make you literally feel exhausted after playing" is just not a good sell compared to "Press Q for awesome wins!! Yaay!" (No offense to Overwatch players) | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On November 28 2016 06:59 KeksX wrote: Not only that you have zero proof that these are actually the reasons, we have enough indicators that show that they aren't. Other games are missing key features to date and are not affected by it. I mean hell, Riot announced a replay system how long ago? And then again this october? Not sure if they even have it now. StarCraft II did a lot of things right. It helped kickstart the streamer scene and it was a role model for many new eSports titles. When CS:GO was still a bullshit game, StarCraft II already had a huge following that was spoiled by nice features. At some point we need to finally realize that the core game is the issue here. "Frustrating, mechanically and mentally challenging game that will make you literally feel exhausted after playing" is just not a good sell compared to "Press Q for awesome wins!! Yaay!" (No offense to Overwatch players) The game itself is flawed in a bunch of ways, but the lack of communication from Blizzard was the last straw that probably made many people leave to games where they feel that developers see them as more than a wallet. | ||
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