Nerchio: I started practicing at 9am in the morning because I played a little bit less in the past 2 weeks, so I needed to catch up. I finished at 2:30am, so it's about 17 hours, with some breaks in between of course.
What was your hardest match in the qualifier?
It's hard to say actually because I didn't have a very good start, losing a map to both Tomikus and Lambo. ZvZ is hard and scary to play but I managed to pull through. I guess my hardest match would be against MarineLorD since I lost that one, but I was already quite tired and sleepy at that point, so it was far from my best performance.
What is it that makes ZvZ so difficult?
It starts in the early game where you need to be on top of your build order, micro and scouting to avoid losing to quick all-ins. There are a lot of different timings that require you to play a different response at all stages in the game and pretty much the whole Zerg arsenal is being used in different ways, so it's really hard to play a standard game.
Speaking of ZvZ, the new SSL champion, Solar, is attending Kespa Cup too. Did you see his series against Dark? Did anything stand out to you?
First of all, it's really hard to learn from watching ZvZ at all because there are too many things happening at the same time and it's hard to know what is going on in someone's head when he is playing. Solar played a little bit unusually I think, with some macro hatches which we don't really see in ZvZ, but besides that it was a very standard match. Some all-ins, some roach vs roach, some mutas, some ravager/ling timings. It's very typical ZvZ, that's why it's hard to play. I noticed that Dark was afraid of playing the lategame and tried ending games with midgame timings.
Since we're talking about Korean players now: you're always in LR threads on TeamLiquid, commenting on Korean games, and you always seem very confident against them. Why is that?
I don't seem confident against them, I was only saying Zergs in KR seemed really poor for 6 months and they didn't have a clue how to play ZvT especially. They were basically playing the same builds and died to the most standard build in ZvT, which is the double medivac timing. Later they figured it out a little bit, but Europe was playing those builds 2 months earlier. Also we need to counterbalance TL Forums' bias towards Koreans.
I found one of your posts yesterday, saying it would be easy to beat Maru. Would it be?
Probably not, but it's more fun if you give some strong opinions from time to time.
You're not the first to say that foreigners are figuring the game out a bit faster. Solar said it recently as well, Dear used one of Harstem's builds in GSL. Do you think the foreign 'metagame' is ahead now as well in some cases? And if so, which?
I can speak only for myself here, but I am playing much more than I did in Heart of the Swarm. Similarly to Wings of Liberty I believe I can compete with Koreans and be confident with my own way of playing the game instead of copying their builds. I don't know if we are figuring the game out faster than Koreans, but I am pretty sure that they are not the only ones that know how to play Starcraft 2, as some people on the TL forums suggest. In terms of Zergs, I think we are slowly moving towards the same metagame, but we can see that the Zerg match-ups still play out differently.
Kespa Cup is the first Global Event of the year. Should there be more of them?
I wouldn't mind if there were more of them of course, but I was always saying that foreigners need more room to improve which is now provided through the WCS system. I think the most important step was giving us 3 big WCS tournaments that give quite a bit of money, and if the rest of Dreamhacks and IEMs were Global Events instead, it would be fine too. I would probably be continuing my studies instead if there wasn't any support for the foreign scene.
Looking at the final player list for Kespa Cup, it includes 3 of the Korean champions, as well as other high profile players. Is there anyone you would like to play against, or anyone you'd like to avoid?
I would probably like to avoid playing against Neeb because he is amazing. I don't really mind the rest. I think all my match-ups are similar in skill level at the moment, so it's hard to say who I would like to play against.
Who wins the event?
Hopefully it's me, but I don't have that many expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Protoss player like Zest or Stats. To be honest I can't see TRUE or any other Zerg except me winning this tournament.
Is Zerg really that bad?
I know Solar just won a tournament but I feel like bracket luck is a big contribution to a lot of championships as well. Overall I don't consider those Zerg players capable of consistent tournament wins.
That’s a good note to end on. Any shoutouts or special mentions you want to give us?
Thanks to my team Euronics Gaming for supporting me this year and thanks to Red Bull for believing in my championship potential.
How will Nerchio fare at Kespa Cup? There's an easy way to let him know.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
none, no one cares. Just like no one will care when you get eliminated 0-3 in the first round. Cheers.
Nobody cares that's why you came to this interview with me and took your time to make this post. Cheers.
hold on there, boy, I only care to see your ridiculous attitude and ego get destroyed in a real competition. Good thing that's pretty much what is gonna happen, realistically. Btw what up with the snide remark? One too many hate points to handle already?
Solid interview. Nerchio obviously likes to stir the pot quite a bit, taking what he says at face value is not sensible. I do hope you'll have a strong run in this tournament, Nerchio - this is something that would be truly inspiring for lots of non-koreans playing SC. Fingers crossed.
On September 17 2016 20:33 Olli wrote: Kespa Cup is the first Global Event of the year. Should there be more of them?
I wouldn't mind if there were more of them of course, but I was always saying that foreigners need more room to improve which is now provided through the WCS system. I think the most important step was giving us 3 big WCS tournaments that give quite a bit of money, and if the rest of Dreamhacks and IEMs were Global Events instead, it would be fine too. I would probably be continuing my studies instead if there wasn't any support for the foreign scene.
So...
If it was the same as last year but WCS Premier gave more money you would have been fine?
On September 17 2016 20:33 Olli wrote: Kespa Cup is the first Global Event of the year. Should there be more of them?
I wouldn't mind if there were more of them of course, but I was always saying that foreigners need more room to improve which is now provided through the WCS system. I think the most important step was giving us 3 big WCS tournaments that give quite a bit of money, and if the rest of Dreamhacks and IEMs were Global Events instead, it would be fine too. I would probably be continuing my studies instead if there wasn't any support for the foreign scene.
So...
If it was the same as last year but WCS Premier gave more money you would have been fine?
3 big WCS with citizenship requirements and everything else global - sure.
I would be happily surprised if foreigners would go far in the KeSPA cup and Blizzcon.
Happy because I miss the Stephano and to a lesser extend, NaNiwa days. A more widespread competition would be good for the esport obviously.
Surprised because why would after one year of separate scenes foreigners have caught up with Koreans, doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe they reconquered lost ground a bit because they have more incentive to train but I fear not losing to Koreans for a while have made some a bit unrealistic. Just look at how easy it was for TRUE to qualify via foreign WCS, that should tell you something.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I dont think nerchio said anything wrong... its true koreans are only good cuz they dedicate themselves, but so can anyone, if byun can win a GSL without a team why cant a foreigner hang with the very best koreans???
I think nerchio would do just fine against a korean player.. Im not a nerchio fan but i do respect him as a gamer and for his competitiveness. and plus polish girls are cute lol
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
Not sure what you mean free ZvT wins because in SC2 at the top level the wins are almost never "free" and Protoss is considered to be the strongest race at the moment so "decent ZvP" does not describe it very well Problem with ZvZ is that if you really want to conquer the match-up you need to practice 1 or 2 months with focused ZvZ practice and then you are going to suffer in other match ups. ZvZ is just that much harder to play consistently good.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Because Zerg is always strong early in the expansion as it doesn't need to be figured out as much as other races. Just look how protoss changed from people saying it's impossible to win (and they kept playing same builds for like 3 months and whining) to being probably the strongest race there is.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Because Zerg is always strong early in the expansion as it doesn't need to be figured out as much as other races. Just look how protoss changed from people saying it's impossible to win (and they kept playing same builds for like 3 months and whining) to being probably the strongest race there is.
With only getting nerfs since the launch of the expansion.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Because Zerg is always strong early in the expansion as it doesn't need to be figured out as much as other races. Just look how protoss changed from people saying it's impossible to win (and they kept playing same builds for like 3 months and whining) to being probably the strongest race there is.
I dunno I figured protoss were super strong as well, I wasn't sure what was worse between super adepts (Seed vs Bomber prepatch) and ultra ultras. Zerg is still doing strong number wise in Europe but indeed at the highest level terrans are catching up in TvZ (MLorD, uThermal and recently HeroMarine are doing well).
Point is even though it wasn't "free" wins, not having to struggle in ZvT due to low number of terrans (without considering if the MU was advantageous or not) surely helped having good placements as well.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Zerg is always the strongest at the start of a new expansion I think, they didn't really get changed much either this time, just got a lot of buffs to already existing units. Zerg felt really strong in the first few months after release, correct. But TvZ was still always around 50% and now Terran has been very slightly favoured since May (http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/).
It was even extremer with Protoss players, who just didn't know how to play vs zerg at the start, but once they figured it out, PvZ was Protoss favoured, despite nerfs to adepts and immortals.
I think for an expansion that changed as much as LotV, the game was pretty balanced pretty fast and apart from the first DH maybe, the better player won most of the time.
Sure it was never perfect,, but I just can't agree on ZvT "free wins", sorry.
When I say ZvT "free wins" I mean in the case of a top zerg player such as Nerchio. Of course with decently matched players ZvT although advantageous wasn't free win, but for Nerchio other than MarineLord/Polt there was no competition as the time in ZvT I'm almost certain. Whereas in ZvZ and ZvP even slightly "worse" players were probably harder for him to beat than slightly worse terrans.
On September 17 2016 21:24 Poopi wrote: When I say ZvT "free wins" I mean in the case of a top zerg player such as Nerchio. Of course with decently matched players ZvT although advantageous wasn't free win, but for Nerchio other than MarineLord/Polt there was no competition as the time in ZvT I'm almost certain.
Well okay, but was that a balance issue or a skill issue? If you are saying that Nerchio was just too good in zvt for EU/NA, well I can agree on that. Terrans just had not figured it out yet outside of Korea.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Because Zerg is always strong early in the expansion as it doesn't need to be figured out as much as other races. Just look how protoss changed from people saying it's impossible to win (and they kept playing same builds for like 3 months and whining) to being probably the strongest race there is.
I dunno I figured protoss were super strong as well, I wasn't sure what was worse between super adepts (Seed vs Bomber prepatch) and ultra ultras. Zerg is still doing strong number wise in Europe but indeed at the highest level terrans are catching up in TvZ (MLorD, uThermal and recently HeroMarine are doing well).
Point is even though it wasn't "free" wins, not having to struggle in ZvT due to low number of terrans (without considering if the MU was advantageous or not) surely helped having good placements as well.
On the other hand other races have to prepare mostly against Z because there is so many of us (or was because the number of relevant Z went down really really hard)
Past in WoL I didn't know who Nerchio was, and I knew him for the first time when he eliminated my hero WhiteRa from a Tournament (It was IPL IIRC), so I hated him so badly...
Then I started to see how good he was, as a player and as a person, kind of nice guy, and liked him a lot, so I hope he can stay in shape and be on top of competing against Koreans and any other player.
I think the 2 Foreign Zergs I like and respect the most are Nerchio and Snute... and honestly I almost don't like Zergs lol, and even less foreigners.
So... that said, best of luck to Nerchio and all the foreigners in this tournament, as well at Blizzcon, let's hope they can delete this Korean bias a lot of us have and give us awesome games.
On September 17 2016 21:35 Sogetsu wrote: So... that said, best of luck to Nerchio and all the foreigners in this tournament, as well at Blizzcon, let's hope they can delete this Korean bias a lot of us have.
If Nerchio loses Koreans bias... If Nerchio wins, Zerg is OP. If Nerchio wins versus Zerg, ZvZs are random anyway.
I can see that Poopi is really hardcore Terran fan LOL. With your logic attached to this "free TvZ wins" ballshit, I assume that u also think that Byun won Code S for free too?
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
People hate on Nerchio because he says Koreans are overrated, and anyone who thinks foreigners are good is automatic scrub
While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
As for korean bias, one can look at skillfactors such as builds strats and mechanics. Unless youve been living under a rock its been pretty clear that while korean zergs have been struggling in LotV because they desperately try to keep the momentum in their matchups, foreigners accepted that you can no longer dictate the games in ZvT until hivetech, you just have to defend and play positional ZvT.
However if you look at pure mechanics, sure the best korean zerg (dark) has better mechanics than foreigners.
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
Well said, although it's kinda funny how it's only when Blizzard bans Koreans from fighting foreigners, all of a sudden people saying they aren't that good XD. Like no one weren't saying that back when foreigners were getting bopped on a weekly basis lol
Ok so foreigners are blaming Korean for being too good ? Tell me whats wrong about Korean ? They practice harder, they are more professional (while you guys still study or hang out, they stay at teamhouse at practice) and you blame them ? Seems legit LOL. And about Nerchio, i havent seen him beat any top tier Korean (at least in a major tournament) and he answered this interview like he is one of the best Zerg (if not the best) in the world, underestimate the Koreans. I'd like to know what this guy will say when he lose in the first rounds of Kespa cup, especially against Korean. And yes, Korean arent the only ones know to play Starcraft 2, but they are much more better than the rest. Its like a 6 year-old boy shouts at his math teacher: "hey, you are not the only one knows Mathematic"
On September 17 2016 23:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
I don't get when people on the internet compare SC2 to footie. Like bro. Any single one of the countries you mentioned has more people who play football at some level than the entire SC2 playerbase. Of course national leagues prosper in a game where most countries have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players, and even bigger numbers of people who follow it. Of course talent is fostered and grown in such an environment. This hasn't happened and won't happened in SC2 because it's a niche game in a dead genre, so it's very stupid to try to force it at the expense of literally the only country where it can and did happen, and at the expense of the best players in the world.
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
As for korean bias, one can look at skillfactors such as builds strats and mechanics. Unless youve been living under a rock its been pretty clear that while korean zergs have been struggling in LotV because they desperately try to keep the momentum in their matchups, foreigners accepted that you can no longer dictate the games in ZvT until hivetech, you just have to defend and play positional ZvT.
However if you look at pure mechanics, sure the best korean zerg (dark) has better mechanics than foreigners.
Because it's not the same system structure, that is comparing apples to oranges really. The incentive for them to play is the same as the Koreans, the money is there, just because they weren't at the time good enough to get it doesn't mean the Koreans should be banished and punished for being better. To use your analogly that would be like the NHL banishing all the playoff teams from last year from competing so the Leafs have a chance to make the playoffs.
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
As for korean bias, one can look at skillfactors such as builds strats and mechanics. Unless youve been living under a rock its been pretty clear that while korean zergs have been struggling in LotV because they desperately try to keep the momentum in their matchups, foreigners accepted that you can no longer dictate the games in ZvT until hivetech, you just have to defend and play positional ZvT.
However if you look at pure mechanics, sure the best korean zerg (dark) has better mechanics than foreigners.
Because it's not the same system structure, that is comparing apples to oranges really. The incentive for them to play is the same as the Koreans, the money is there, just because they weren't at the time good enough to get it doesn't mean the Koreans should be banished and punished for being better. To use your analogly that would be like the NHL banishing all the playoff teams from last year from competing so the Leafs have a chance to make the playoffs.
They do change the draft order depending on the results to give the weaker team a better chance
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
As for korean bias, one can look at skillfactors such as builds strats and mechanics. Unless youve been living under a rock its been pretty clear that while korean zergs have been struggling in LotV because they desperately try to keep the momentum in their matchups, foreigners accepted that you can no longer dictate the games in ZvT until hivetech, you just have to defend and play positional ZvT.
However if you look at pure mechanics, sure the best korean zerg (dark) has better mechanics than foreigners.
Because it's not the same system structure, that is comparing apples to oranges really. The incentive for them to play is the same as the Koreans, the money is there, just because they weren't at the time good enough to get it doesn't mean the Koreans should be banished and punished for being better. To use your analogly that would be like the NHL banishing all the playoff teams from last year from competing so the Leafs have a chance to make the playoffs.
They do change the draft order depending on the results to give the weaker team a better chance
A draft order is a bit different from literally stopping the teams from competing .
Nerchio thinks he's better than Dark...ok. Koreans might be behind the meta because they don't use innovation to win, they use mechanics. Once the BIG update passes, and the metagame settles (say, in a year) we'll be back to broodwar style domination.
On September 18 2016 00:25 adamhu10 wrote: Nerchio thinks he's better than Dark...ok. Koreans might be behind the meta because they don't use innovation to win, they use mechanics. Once the BIG update passes, and the metagame settles (say, in a year) we'll be back to broodwar style domination.
Back to? Koreans are still better players than foreigners, they just can't fight in tournaments together so Nerchio can get away with saying they're overrated
On September 17 2016 23:32 ParksonVN wrote: Ok so foreigners are blaming Korean for being too good ? Tell me whats wrong about Korean ? They practice harder, they are more professional (while you guys still study or hang out, they stay at teamhouse at practice) and you blame them ? Seems legit LOL. And about Nerchio, i havent seen him beat any top tier Korean (at least in a major tournament) and he answered this interview like he is one of the best Zerg (if not the best) in the world, underestimate the Koreans. I'd like to know what this guy will say when he lose in the first rounds of Kespa cup, especially against Korean. And yes, Korean arent the only ones know to play Starcraft 2, but they are much more better than the rest. Its like a 6 year-old boy shouts at his math teacher: "hey, you are not the only one knows Mathematic"
That first part is absolutely not true. Almost all pros practice now as hard as Koreans(and much harder than before with more incentive)... almost no pros are studying at the same time(only TLBunny afaik), and the only thing they generally have better is actual infrastructure, which does matter a ton(even if Byun won GSL without it, but he's both an outlier and also had KeSPA practice partners for it so...) He also just now, on equal terms, won vs Byun, Maru and Creator, granted in an online cup. Pretty sure he won't be knocked out of KeSPA Cup so easily.
On September 17 2016 23:56 Lightrush wrote: Still the most unlikable SC2 pro, though :/
He has a sense of humor (although a really sarcastic one) and interacts with the community on TL, I actually like him even though he can get really salty at times.
On September 18 2016 00:57 Poopi wrote: Even Stephano and Scarlett can beat ByuN in shoutcraft so no big deal. Beating overrated Maru is good tho
Scarlett almost beat him today(one mistake cost her the game), and they're good friends and practice partners, like so much Byun wants her back in Korea cause she's a good practice partner.
Also Nerchio just beat Rogue and actually outplayed him completely.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
People hate on Nerchio because he says Koreans are overrated, and anyone who thinks foreigners are good is automatic scrub
How could you say that? When Nerchio can take a couple of matches against them who are also clearly playing at their own top-level like today it has to mean he'd crush it in korean leagues. And to maybe a slightly lesser degree all the other top-foreigners after practicing against other top foreigners this year.
Like even every single time Nerchio loses he has the most amazing excuses. You're clearly just a hater.
You know I thought Nerchio was all talk. Than I saw him beat Gumiho and Dear back to back in shoutcarft before getting knocked out by tlo. We live in odd times.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
A few :D I disagree with pretty much everything you say, and I think no foreigner would consistently reach Code S, but I respect your courage greatly And damn you are getting good.
On September 17 2016 20:57 Elentos wrote: Nerchio please give your opinion on basically every tournament this year being full single elimination brackets.
It's shit, there is a couple of players that won the tournaments and I was like "meh". For example my loss to Showtime in Tours - For this tournament I mostly prepared for ZvZ as I had it 2 rounds in a row and he mostly had PvZ - good job you're victorious. I am not saying he didn't play great but if you have a lucky bracket and you are one of the top players then you can win the tournament easily.
I lost the last couple of tournaments on ZvZ 2-3 so if it was DE or something else I could've gone much further as well.
We already had a meeting with Blizzard about it though but who knows if it's going to change anything
But you benefited for zerg being so strong at the time as well for having free ZvT wins, decent ZvP challenge, so you could focus on training ZvZ... Of course it's a double edged sword, having easy matchups brings so many zergs and if ZvZ is a bit random you are screwed a bit.
I love how you state this as if it were a fact, while Terrans struggled in EU at the same time Terrans in Korea were dominating Zergs left and right.
You realize in both seasons terrans got shat on in Korea as well? Especially in SSL iirc where only ByuN and aLive were still qualified. If it weren't "free" wins, why were there so many midtier zergs in the first months of LotV in Europe? Like people were talking about Bly and the likes as if they were some sort of super strong zergs, which wasn't true afaik?
Because Zerg is always strong early in the expansion as it doesn't need to be figured out as much as other races. Just look how protoss changed from people saying it's impossible to win (and they kept playing same builds for like 3 months and whining) to being probably the strongest race there is.
Kind of like zergs did before they recently figured out they could go ling-bane-ravager?
I have to laugh as I know Nerchio just says these ridiculous things because he knows it makes people mad haha. I do hope he faces a korean terran though, I would really love to see if he can actually hang with them or if they destroy him.
On September 18 2016 02:02 blade55555 wrote: I have to laugh as I know Nerchio just says these ridiculous things because he knows it makes people mad haha. I do hope he faces a korean terran though, I would really love to see if he can actually hang with them or if they destroy him.
On September 18 2016 02:02 blade55555 wrote: I have to laugh as I know Nerchio just says these ridiculous things because he knows it makes people mad haha. I do hope he faces a korean terran though, I would really love to see if he can actually hang with them or if they destroy him.
This comment - given the antitiming - made me smile.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
People hate on Nerchio because he says Koreans are overrated, and anyone who thinks foreigners are good is automatic scrub
How could you say that? When Nerchio can take a couple of matches against them who are also clearly playing at their own top-level like today it has to mean he'd crush it in korean leagues. And to maybe a slightly lesser degree all the other top-foreigners after practicing against other top foreigners this year.
Like even every single time Nerchio loses he has the most amazing excuses. You're clearly just a hater.
You didn't understand me at all, I was explaining some of the reasons people hate Nerchio
Nerchio pretty much had 1 chance to take out top Koreans, and he's doing it now. Many would call it a waste because now that top Koreans like Maru, Rogue, Byun have fought him they know how to prepare. He won games from guys playing hard into his style, when he plays in KeSPA and BLizzcon they're all gonna research him.
Speaking of which when do we get the group selection for KeSPA cup??
On September 18 2016 02:02 blade55555 wrote: I have to laugh as I know Nerchio just says these ridiculous things because he knows it makes people mad haha. I do hope he faces a korean terran though, I would really love to see if he can actually hang with them or if they destroy him.
This comment - given the antitiming - made me smile.
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
On September 18 2016 02:34 stuchiu wrote: It would be lame if Nerchio got a ZvZ in his first kespa cup match.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
People hate on Nerchio because he says Koreans are overrated, and anyone who thinks foreigners are good is automatic scrub
How could you say that? When Nerchio can take a couple of matches against them who are also clearly playing at their own top-level like today it has to mean he'd crush it in korean leagues. And to maybe a slightly lesser degree all the other top-foreigners after practicing against other top foreigners this year.
Like even every single time Nerchio loses he has the most amazing excuses. You're clearly just a hater.
You didn't understand me at all, I was explaining some of the reasons people hate Nerchio
Nerchio pretty much had 1 chance to take out top Koreans, and he's doing it now. Many would call it a waste because now that top Koreans like Maru, Rogue, Byun have fought him they know how to prepare. He won games from guys playing hard into his style, when he plays in KeSPA and BLizzcon they're all gonna research him.
Are you really saying that Nerchio plays such a gimmicky style that he only won due to surprise? He's just a solid player man why is that so hard to accept for you. Of course Kespa cup won't be easy at all, but acting like he's a one build wonder makes zero sense to me.
On September 17 2016 20:39 Nerchio wrote: I wonder how many internet hate points I am going to get for this interview :D
How could anyone hate on anything you could do? We all love you, and this interview, and will show you praise and pity. We know you're still the best even if you don't win a game and any pathetic nerd giving you some "internet hate points" for no reason is obviously wrong.
People hate on Nerchio because he says Koreans are overrated, and anyone who thinks foreigners are good is automatic scrub
How could you say that? When Nerchio can take a couple of matches against them who are also clearly playing at their own top-level like today it has to mean he'd crush it in korean leagues. And to maybe a slightly lesser degree all the other top-foreigners after practicing against other top foreigners this year.
Like even every single time Nerchio loses he has the most amazing excuses. You're clearly just a hater.
You didn't understand me at all, I was explaining some of the reasons people hate Nerchio
Nerchio pretty much had 1 chance to take out top Koreans, and he's doing it now. Many would call it a waste because now that top Koreans like Maru, Rogue, Byun have fought him they know how to prepare. He won games from guys playing hard into his style, when he plays in KeSPA and BLizzcon they're all gonna research him.
Are you really saying that Nerchio plays such a gimmicky style that he only won due to surprise? He's just a solid player man why is that so hard to accept for you. Of course Kespa cup won't be easy at all, but acting like he's a one build wonder makes zero sense to me.
No that's not what I'm saying at all. Litterally at all, not even close.
I said that guys like Maru and Byun had no clue what they were going up against, Nerchio is familier with Byun's marine pushes and Maru's drop harass. Byun went all marines against 150 lings, Maru went 100% drops to Nerchio's drop defence style. Near enough build order counters for both.
Think about it, if Nerchio doesn't play today he goes to KeSPA cup, most Koreans don't bother preparing for him and he gets a lot of wins. Now that he's beaten Rogue, Maru, and Byun, Koreans are gonna start looking at his games. And lets be honest, if Byun or Maru went for lategame they would have both destroyed him.
Heck, the first player who reguarly plays against Nerchio (Mana) outplayed him.
Everyone is capable of winning against the best players in the wolrd, no big deal. Byun played really good but we all know that online he doesnt play isn't as great as in a lan, plus he has still gsl and ssl to prepare. This is infact demostrated by his meh performance on the ladder, so ez to beat him on a normal ladder game. I bet foregner will not win a map on 100 even against a bottom code a player. They're just so trash, i can tell it cause i play way more than them vs top koreans, and understand the game better than them.
On September 18 2016 02:29 Yrr wrote: It took a foreigner what koreans were not able to do - beating Byun. It took a foreigner what koreans were not able to do - beating Nerchio.
Well done Nerchio, you made us proud.
ByuN got trashed already by Neeb, Stephano and even Scarlett xD. ZvT still seems easy tho, I'm glad .
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
Good luck Nerchio : ) I'm really happy with players like you and Neeb and MarineLord representing the foreign scene. You guys probably will feel alone and cornered against all those Koreans, but you'll have all (or most) of the foreign scene cheering and supporting you guys all the way!
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
Reading the thread I definitely see that bias Nerchio was talking about in the interview. The win vs Byun may not be that representative, as for Byun it was the 9th game in a row, but it definitely an indicator. But the other wins showed that Nerchio can do it, and he is quite right about the bias here. He doesn't claim that he is the best, but he is quite true saying that if there is any gap at all, then it is way smaller then what the people here claim (the bias), and may be foreigners are even better. I know it wasn't the case for many years, but things change (Uthermal interview explains why).
Regarding the claims that he revealed himself, then I'm quite certain the players in Korea do know his standard ZvT styles (one of Byun's practice partners is Scarlett, which surely knows about it, even though she plays otherwise). In Solar's interview after winning the SSL, it was said that he lacked Korean practice partners, which made him practice with many foreigners before his finals vs Dark (I guess you know who won this one). So its not like Koreans underestimate foreigners the way some people here claim, therefore they are certainly aware of Nerchio's standard ZvT styles he played vs Byun and Maru. The other 2 ZvTs he played safer, starting with a pool first and later thirds, but both of them didn't even get to the end game, meaning his defense was on point even without the corners he usually cuts in this match-up.
He will probably face Mana in an qualification match in a few days, a much more important match for him then the last shoucraft matches, so this is probably where he didn't wan't to reveal himself. Not surprised at all that he played all ZvPs on Frost with the same unit composition and approach (going for the third from the other side around). So he didn't really reveal his current ZvP preparation, which is the matchup he have to prepare for these days. (perhaps ZvZ is another one, but it is a way more reactive and dynamic match-up then a ZvP)
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
And until Byun won GSL you could also not be convinced he even was a top 20 player in the world.
But some stuff is more likely than other.
But I am confused what you are not convinced about? I don't believe foreigners are in top 7-10 for instance, however I believe we have quite a few (between 3-5) in the top 10-30 range. And that gives us room for a lot more upsets.
2-3 years ago I wouldn't rank a single non-korean in the top 20.
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
And until Byun won GSL you could also not be convinced he even was a top 20 player in the world.
But some stuff is more likely than other.
But I am confused what you are not convinced about? I don't believe foreigners are in top 7-10 for instance, however I believe we have quite a few (between 3-5) in the top 10-30 range. And that gives us room for a lot more upsets.
2-3 years ago I wouldn't rank a single non-korean in the top 20.
okay I should not speak against the foreigner circlejerk right after nerchio beat 6 koreans. we'll see at KeSPa cup
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
And until Byun won GSL you could also not be convinced he even was a top 20 player in the world.
But some stuff is more likely than other.
But I am confused what you are not convinced about? I don't believe foreigners are in top 7-10 for instance, however I believe we have quite a few (between 3-5) in the top 10-30 range. And that gives us room for a lot more upsets.
2-3 years ago I wouldn't rank a single non-korean in the top 20.
Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
You know what I call people who "dont perform well in online tournaments"?
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
Byun made his name online winning a bunch of things, and, after he got over his offline nerves, proceeded to wreck everyone. With Byun as an indication, consistently strong online results do mean something for offline results.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
You know what I call people who "dont perform well in online tournaments"?
Please please do well in offline events to prove what you say.
No sarcasm here I wanna see foreigners beating Koreans in an offline events. They did it in shoutcraft where both sides had the same disadvantages of ping, why can't they do it offline?
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
And until Byun won GSL you could also not be convinced he even was a top 20 player in the world.
But some stuff is more likely than other.
But I am confused what you are not convinced about? I don't believe foreigners are in top 7-10 for instance, however I believe we have quite a few (between 3-5) in the top 10-30 range. And that gives us room for a lot more upsets.
2-3 years ago I wouldn't rank a single non-korean in the top 20.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
Haha didn't know shoutcraft was today. I am more meaning in a lan environment though, not a bo 1 online .
Obviously Byun is the better player, but the difference isn't as big as it was 2-3 years ago. Back then even tier 2 koreans would be better than foreigners. Right now the best foreigners are "merely" underdogs against the best koreans (as opposed to being chanceless). A few upsets are definitely a possiblity.
Anyway with regards to online-vs-offline. Remember that Byun made himself a name through online cups. Even though they are not 1-1 comparable, ignoring them is definitely a big mistake. If you smash the opponents online, chances are you will do similar stuff at lan.
until top foreigners can consistently beat koreans offline I'm not convinced they have improved. winning single maps against top koreans was always possible, Snute beat Classic and Rain last year (even in bo3) so I don't think nerchio winning a few maps vs koreans online proves anything.
And until Byun won GSL you could also not be convinced he even was a top 20 player in the world.
But some stuff is more likely than other.
But I am confused what you are not convinced about? I don't believe foreigners are in top 7-10 for instance, however I believe we have quite a few (between 3-5) in the top 10-30 range. And that gives us room for a lot more upsets.
2-3 years ago I wouldn't rank a single non-korean in the top 20.
Stephano was top 10
in 2012.
I our heart he has always been, and always will be?
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
You know what I call people who "dont perform well in online tournaments"?
On September 18 2016 19:40 Lgnarrow wrote: Lilbow v 2.0 inc
That's very ignorant. Nerchio is one of the best since WoL, even a bad performance at Kespa Cup will not make any comparison between Nerchio and Lilbow possible.
On September 18 2016 19:40 Lgnarrow wrote: Lilbow v 2.0 inc
That's very ignorant. Nerchio is one of the best since WoL, even a bad performance at Kespa Cup will not make any comparison between Nerchio and Lilbow possible.
I'm not a big fan of Nerchio. But yea this guy is a dinosaur of the SC2 scene. He aint gonna leave just because of bad performance, for sure. He will probably say some bs comment though. "haha"
On September 18 2016 19:40 Lgnarrow wrote: Lilbow v 2.0 inc
That's very ignorant. Nerchio is one of the best since WoL, even a bad performance at Kespa Cup will not make any comparison between Nerchio and Lilbow possible.
On September 18 2016 19:40 Lgnarrow wrote: Lilbow v 2.0 inc
That's very ignorant. Nerchio is one of the best since WoL, even a bad performance at Kespa Cup will not make any comparison between Nerchio and Lilbow possible.
at least Lilbow won 1 WCS, how about Nerchio ?
That is very true, and Lilbow was good at one point. But if I were a pro-player, I'd trade these achievements for that ones any day.
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
You must be new.. when people talk about koreans, the country of birth is not what matters, they talk about practise environments and high profile coaches. Clearly Polt Hydra and Vioelt have left those habits and their skill is much worse than before. Of course there are exceptions, like Taeja or ByuN but those are very raw talented players per sé
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
I don't think it's fair to judge Polt and Hydra performances from the recent WCS tourneys, since they have shown in the past that they can prepare for Blizzcon very well no matter their perceived level was before the event. Polt qualified first for the event and even though some foreigners performed better than him after that he still gained quite a lot of WCS points. Hydra was eliminated a lot of times for sure, but he secured a spot and has often been eliminated by Neeb who is quite a spectacular foreigner, I don't think there are that many foreigners that performed better than Hydra.
viOlet looked plain worse than the top foreigners for sure tho, and afaik he wasn't able to up his level of play for important tourneys so we can conclude that the top foreigners surpassed him for quite a lot of time.
Plus these three or four koreans playing in WCS were in the minority number wise, and for the first time in years it'll be the other way around and we'll have 4 foreigners in a sea of korean players, playing in Korea, it might end up ugly...
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
To be fair it is the reason why 90% of KR pros never stream or compete in online tournaments. The same reason they use barcodes on the ladder, to try and hide what they're doing.
Even when they do online cups they almost always just play standard (like Maru in ShoutCraft doing nothing but drops) they don't pull out the special tactics and builds until major tournaments.
On September 18 2016 15:15 highsis wrote: Please please do well in offline events to prove what you say.
No sarcasm here I wanna see foreigners beating Koreans in an offline events. They did it in shoutcraft where both sides had the same disadvantages of ping, why can't they do it offline?
Because offline is a different deal. There's more money on the line and players will always save there best builds for them. Especially for Koreans who have teamhouses and coaches to help them study and prepare for each opponent they're gonna face. That's why Starleagues/proleague is considered the highest level of play, there's little chance of getting easy wins because players are so well prepared.
You saw Maru vs Nerchio in an online bo1, Maru had no clue what he was playing against and he just commited everything to drops (it looked like he was playing a ladder game), Nerchio being a smart player played defensive and got a relatively easy win. If they were playing for offline for real prize money, Maru would have reseached Nerchio's games and actually try to counter play him. Like he does to everyone in proleague.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
To be fair it is the reason why 90% of KR pros never stream or compete in online tournaments. The same reason they use barcodes on the ladder, to try and hide what they're doing.
Even when they do online cups they almost always just play standard (like Maru in ShoutCraft doing nothing but drops) they don't pull out the special tactics and builds until major tournaments.
so what? hiding strategies is part of the entire point of strategy. imagine playing risk with your friends and telling them every single thing you're planning on doing, you'd just get slaughtered by counterplay
On September 17 2016 23:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
I don't get when people on the internet compare SC2 to footie. Like bro. Any single one of the countries you mentioned has more people who play football at some level than the entire SC2 playerbase. Of course national leagues prosper in a game where most countries have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players, and even bigger numbers of people who follow it. Of course talent is fostered and grown in such an environment. This hasn't happened and won't happened in SC2 because it's a niche game in a dead genre, so it's very stupid to try to force it at the expense of literally the only country where it can and did happen, and at the expense of the best players in the world.
It has nothing to do with the amount of players. This is why the system is divided into foreigners and koreans, not Swedes french germans americans etc etc etc. Im not talking about growing talents, setting up practice houses or making sc2 into a fucking olympic sport. Im talking about giving non koreans an incentive to play the game.
Its important to have players compete on equal terms, its a completely valid econimcal standpoint.
On September 17 2016 23:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: While I do hope the foreigners put on a good show, I just don't see it happening. Yes a lot of us have a Korean bias, but it is well earned. What do you expect people to think after 10+ years of Koreans beating Foreign asses, literally to the point where big daddy blizzard had to step in and separate the two. If to be successful, you need the system to ban other players from coming in so you get money, you can't turn around and complain about Bias.....
I sincerely wish you good luck in Kespa Cup, I do hope the foreigners have gotten better and closed the gap. It sounds like you guys are training hard. It would be nice to have my Korean bias proven wrong.
I dont get this reasoning, you dont see NHL teams competing in SHL. You dont see Barcelona making a quick tour through eastern europe grabbing the league prize money from Ukraine, Bulgaria Romania Poland etc. How do you expect scenes to grow and foreigners to improve and try if theres no incentive for them to play?
As for korean bias, one can look at skillfactors such as builds strats and mechanics. Unless youve been living under a rock its been pretty clear that while korean zergs have been struggling in LotV because they desperately try to keep the momentum in their matchups, foreigners accepted that you can no longer dictate the games in ZvT until hivetech, you just have to defend and play positional ZvT.
However if you look at pure mechanics, sure the best korean zerg (dark) has better mechanics than foreigners.
Because it's not the same system structure, that is comparing apples to oranges really. The incentive for them to play is the same as the Koreans, the money is there, just because they weren't at the time good enough to get it doesn't mean the Koreans should be banished and punished for being better. To use your analogly that would be like the NHL banishing all the playoff teams from last year from competing so the Leafs have a chance to make the playoffs.
Koreans arent banished and punished, koreans are restricted to their own region.
No that would be like NHL running a couple of years with a KHL team dominating their leagues, not even a good one at that. One of the b-teams just rushing through NHL, raking in the prize money and then going back to KHL. But then NHL finally decided that keeping the money inside the region, as in restricting the league to canadian and american teams. This will help keep an interest in the game because now not only will the players be able to get a salary from their teams, they will also gain sponsor interest as well as prize money.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
To be fair it is the reason why 90% of KR pros never stream or compete in online tournaments. The same reason they use barcodes on the ladder, to try and hide what they're doing.
Even when they do online cups they almost always just play standard (like Maru in ShoutCraft doing nothing but drops) they don't pull out the special tactics and builds until major tournaments.
so what? hiding strategies is part of the entire point of strategy. imagine playing risk with your friends and telling them every single thing you're planning on doing, you'd just get slaughtered by counterplay
what are you on about thats exactly what I said. Koreans barely every stream or compete online in order to hide their builds
On September 19 2016 02:04 usopsama wrote: I can't wait to see these foreigners get rekted.
That reminds me of one thing; am I the only one who feels awkward when non-koreans call another non-korean player 'foreigner'? (esp when they have same nationality)
I`m not an SJW or PC police (I hate PC; everyone blames everyone else for everything, accusing random people of being racist and all trivial things.), but this does not make sense at all; it feels like listening to someone who calls himself in the second person.
On September 19 2016 02:04 usopsama wrote: I can't wait to see these foreigners get rekted.
That reminds me of one thing; am I the only one who feels awkward when non-koreans call another non-korean player 'foreigner'? (esp when they have same nationality)
I`m not an SJW or PC police (I hate PC; everyone blames everyone else for everything, accusing random people of being racist and all trivial things.), but this does not make sense at all; it feels like listening to someone who calls himself mate.
Blizzard split up Koreans and every other country form competing together. It makes sense to call them "foreigners". Plus starcraft is basically a Korean sport anyway
On September 19 2016 02:04 usopsama wrote: I can't wait to see these foreigners get rekted.
That reminds me of one thing; am I the only one who feels awkward when non-koreans call another non-korean player 'foreigner'? (esp when they have same nationality)
I`m not an SJW or PC police (I hate PC; everyone blames everyone else for everything, accusing random people of being racist and all trivial things.), but this does not make sense at all; it feels like listening to someone who calls himself in the second person.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
To be fair it is the reason why 90% of KR pros never stream or compete in online tournaments. The same reason they use barcodes on the ladder, to try and hide what they're doing.
Even when they do online cups they almost always just play standard (like Maru in ShoutCraft doing nothing but drops) they don't pull out the special tactics and builds until major tournaments.
Both current GSL and SSL champions ate notorious for playing lots of online cups. You don't win them by always playing the same build. Still the idea of Korean players and their starcraft secrets never dies out. I guess it's appealing to make them out to be some kind of mysterious superheroes. But they're just guys playing starcraft just like everywhere else.
On September 18 2016 10:06 ParksonVN wrote: Korean just dont care about online tournamen,why ? They dont reveal their builds for few dollars, they play with high ping with makes pros' mechanic seems ordinary... No matter how many matches you win against Koreans in online tournament, i dont see top tier Korean lose in offline tournament.
I love when bronzies think the game is about secret builds you save 3 months in advance (no I really don't love it. I get triggered by how little some people understand).
Also completely ignoring that Violet, Hydra and Polt are all koreans and have been looking alot worse relatively to foreigners... And obviously that there haven't been any offline tournaments for foreigners to prove them selve for a long time.
To be fair it is the reason why 90% of KR pros never stream or compete in online tournaments. The same reason they use barcodes on the ladder, to try and hide what they're doing.
Even when they do online cups they almost always just play standard (like Maru in ShoutCraft doing nothing but drops) they don't pull out the special tactics and builds until major tournaments.
Both current GSL and SSL champions ate notorious for playing lots of online cups. You don't win them by always playing the same build. Still the idea of Korean players and their starcraft secrets never dies out. I guess it's appealing to make them out to be some kind of mysterious superheroes. But they're just guys playing starcraft just like everywhere else.
Your point? I said 90% of Koreans don't stream or reguarly play in online cups, not all of them. Solar and Byun are part of the few that does.
If what you are saying is true, that Koreans don't want to hide their builds, why aren't all of the top Koreans doing weekly online cups? Or streaming every day? The couple that have get decent views on twitch and get decent money. But most don't feel it's worth it. Same reason almost all of them ladder with barcodes
On September 19 2016 12:07 BronzeKnee wrote: I really hope Nerchio meant what he said. You become a champion in your mind before you do it in real life.
That is why Stephano walked thru Koreans. Nerchio could be next.
I think he does. Mentality is such a huge thing in competitive gaming and I think we all underestimate how much of an aura the top pros carried. You're a foreign pro going up against Innovation and you know you're expected to be utterly wrecked and you have been countless times before. It's tilting and easy to not believe in yourself. We've even seen the foreigners get ahead in matches like that and then crumble so hard.
LOTV is basically a new game. Just as Elky and Jinro could whoop Korean butts in the early days of BW and WOL, so can Nerchio and Neeb do the same now. Why is it so surprising? Why is it even an issue?
Since LOTV is drastically going to be changed, whatever happens this year is irrelevant anyway.
When foreigners can dominate Koreans on a consistent basis in a game that has matured after 3-4 years, then there's something worth discussing about. The last time SC2 hit that stage was HOTS - and foreigners just got rekted by Koreans. So the burden is on foreigners to prove that they can do better in the long-term.
You're a great player Nerchio! Wish you the best. Remember dude, you're not only playing for the love and adoration of the foreign scene, all the Korean Zerg fans will be rooting for you too!
On September 19 2016 13:31 RKC wrote: LOTV is basically a new game. Just as Elky and Jinro could whoop Korean butts in the early days of BW and WOL, so can Nerchio and Neeb do the same now. Why is it so surprising? Why is it even an issue?
Since LOTV is drastically going to be changed, whatever happens this year is irrelevant anyway.
When foreigners can dominate Koreans on a consistent basis in a game that has matured after 3-4 years, then there's something worth discussing about. The last time SC2 hit that stage was HOTS - and foreigners just got rekted by Koreans. So the burden is on foreigners to prove that they can do better in the long-term.
Move along now. Talk again in 2018.
hahahaha see you !
you win the best korean-love-1000-point post of the year
On September 19 2016 13:31 RKC wrote: When foreigners can dominate Koreans on a consistent basis in a game that has matured after 3-4 years, then there's something worth discussing about.
or in other words
When foreigners can dominate in time I decide is right and that will be never because I will find exactly time when Koreans are dominating, we can talk about it
great argument mate, logic gymnastics are real here
Foreigners have already proven to be able to beat top Koreans in SC2 (Jinro, Stephano, Naniwa, Snute, etc.). To be this excited about Neeb and Nerchio means you feel those past top foreigners were anomalies and the norm is that foreigners still suck. My lack of excitement is not because I put Koreans on a pedestal (as some of you seem to think), but because I hold foreigners in higher esteem than you do (so much so that I consider Neeb and Nerchio beating top Koreans as the norm in a 'new-ish' game).
(A football analogy: African and Asian teams have broken the WC ceiling of advancing to the knockout rounds on numerous occasion. What was special then has now become the norm. We no longer feel excited when they advanced into the knockout rounds. Once they break into the semi or even the finals, then we'll be at the edge of our seats again.)
Where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game (something even Stephano and Naniwa did not quite achieve). For a foreigner to now achieve that would be truly special. Hence, I'm holding my breath for that.
(A foreigner winning Blizzcon this year would also be slightly special, but its qualification bracket is something unprecedented and surely cannot be compared to the older Blizzcons.)
Yes, so the irony here is that those feeling super excited each time Neeb and Nerchio beats a Korean are actually suffering from a foreigner inferiority complex.
On September 19 2016 22:13 RKC wrote: Foreigners have already proven to be able to beat top Koreans in SC2 (Jinro, Stephano, Naniwa, Snute, etc.). To be this excited about Neeb and Nerchio means you feel those past top foreigners were anomalies and the norm is that foreigners still suck. My lack of excitement is not because I put Koreans on a pedestal (as some of you seem to think), but because I hold foreigners in higher esteem than you do (so much so that I consider Neeb and Nerchio beating top Koreans as the norm in a 'new-ish' game).
(A football analogy: African and Asian teams have broken the WC ceiling of advancing to the knockout rounds on numerous occasion. What was special then has now become the norm. We no longer feel excited when they advanced into the knockout rounds. Once they break into the semi or even the finals, then we'll be at the edge of our seats again.)
Where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game (something even Stephano and Naniwa did not quite achieve). For a foreigner to now achieve that would be truly special. Hence, I'm holding my breath for that.
(A foreigner winning Blizzcon this year would also be slightly special, but its qualification bracket is something unprecedented and surely cannot be compared to the older Blizzcons.)
Yes, so the irony here is that those feeling super excited each time Neeb and Nerchio beats a Korean are actually suffering from a foreigner inferiority complex.
Since Naniwa and Stephano the closest any forigner has come to beat top Koreans is Snute beating HerO a couple times and I think he beat Classic once. None of the other top foreigners right now have proved themselves, Nerchio, NEeb, and MLord are gonna try next week
On September 19 2016 22:13 RKC wrote: Foreigners have already proven to be able to beat top Koreans in SC2 (Jinro, Stephano, Naniwa, Snute, etc.). To be this excited about Neeb and Nerchio means you feel those past top foreigners were anomalies and the norm is that foreigners still suck. My lack of excitement is not because I put Koreans on a pedestal (as some of you seem to think), but because I hold foreigners in higher esteem than you do (so much so that I consider Neeb and Nerchio beating top Koreans as the norm in a 'new-ish' game).
(A football analogy: African and Asian teams have broken the WC ceiling of advancing to the knockout rounds on numerous occasion. What was special then has now become the norm. We no longer feel excited when they advanced into the knockout rounds. Once they break into the semi or even the finals, then we'll be at the edge of our seats again.)
Where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game (something even Stephano and Naniwa did not quite achieve). For a foreigner to now achieve that would be truly special. Hence, I'm holding my breath for that.
(A foreigner winning Blizzcon this year would also be slightly special, but its qualification bracket is something unprecedented and surely cannot be compared to the older Blizzcons.)
Yes, so the irony here is that those feeling super excited each time Neeb and Nerchio beats a Korean are actually suffering from a foreigner inferiority complex.
Since Naniwa and Stephano the closest any forigner has come to beat top Koreans is Snute beating HerO a couple times and I think he beat Classic once. None of the other top foreigners right now have proved themselves, Nerchio, NEeb, and MLord are gonna try next week
Snute beat way more top Koreans than that. He beat Classic and Rain at IEM while they were the current GSL and SSL champions btw.
On September 19 2016 22:13 RKC wrote: Foreigners have already proven to be able to beat top Koreans in SC2 (Jinro, Stephano, Naniwa, Snute, etc.). To be this excited about Neeb and Nerchio means you feel those past top foreigners were anomalies and the norm is that foreigners still suck. My lack of excitement is not because I put Koreans on a pedestal (as some of you seem to think), but because I hold foreigners in higher esteem than you do (so much so that I consider Neeb and Nerchio beating top Koreans as the norm in a 'new-ish' game).
(A football analogy: African and Asian teams have broken the WC ceiling of advancing to the knockout rounds on numerous occasion. What was special then has now become the norm. We no longer feel excited when they advanced into the knockout rounds. Once they break into the semi or even the finals, then we'll be at the edge of our seats again.)
Where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game (something even Stephano and Naniwa did not quite achieve). For a foreigner to now achieve that would be truly special. Hence, I'm holding my breath for that.
(A foreigner winning Blizzcon this year would also be slightly special, but its qualification bracket is something unprecedented and surely cannot be compared to the older Blizzcons.)
Yes, so the irony here is that those feeling super excited each time Neeb and Nerchio beats a Korean are actually suffering from a foreigner inferiority complex.
Since Naniwa and Stephano the closest any forigner has come to beat top Koreans is Snute beating HerO a couple times and I think he beat Classic once. None of the other top foreigners right now have proved themselves, Nerchio, NEeb, and MLord are gonna try next week
Snute beat way more top Koreans than that. He beat Classic and Rain at IEM while they were the current GSL and SSL champions btw.
I litteraly said Snute is the only foreigner to have done it. I don't remember him beating Rain but I do Classic
On September 19 2016 22:13 RKC wrote: Foreigners have already proven to be able to beat top Koreans in SC2 (Jinro, Stephano, Naniwa, Snute, etc.). To be this excited about Neeb and Nerchio means you feel those past top foreigners were anomalies and the norm is that foreigners still suck. My lack of excitement is not because I put Koreans on a pedestal (as some of you seem to think), but because I hold foreigners in higher esteem than you do (so much so that I consider Neeb and Nerchio beating top Koreans as the norm in a 'new-ish' game).
(A football analogy: African and Asian teams have broken the WC ceiling of advancing to the knockout rounds on numerous occasion. What was special then has now become the norm. We no longer feel excited when they advanced into the knockout rounds. Once they break into the semi or even the finals, then we'll be at the edge of our seats again.)
Where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game (something even Stephano and Naniwa did not quite achieve). For a foreigner to now achieve that would be truly special. Hence, I'm holding my breath for that.
(A foreigner winning Blizzcon this year would also be slightly special, but its qualification bracket is something unprecedented and surely cannot be compared to the older Blizzcons.)
Yes, so the irony here is that those feeling super excited each time Neeb and Nerchio beats a Korean are actually suffering from a foreigner inferiority complex.
Since Naniwa and Stephano the closest any forigner has come to beat top Koreans is Snute beating HerO a couple times and I think he beat Classic once. None of the other top foreigners right now have proved themselves, Nerchio, NEeb, and MLord are gonna try next week
Snute beat way more top Koreans than that. He beat Classic and Rain at IEM while they were the current GSL and SSL champions btw.
I litteraly said Snute is the only foreigner to have done it. I don't remember him beating Rain but I do Classic
Yeah, that's what I mean by " where foreigners have fallen short is sustaining dominance against Koreans on a consistent basis in a matured game". Beating top Korean 3-4 years down the road is where they need to prove themselves, not 1-2 years fresh into a game (where foreigners have time and time again shown to be fully capable of, so what Neeb and Nerchio is doing now is the norm and nothing really surprising).
Snute beat both Rain and Classic in BO3 group matches, knocking out Classic (Rain went on to win the competition). Yes, there was a lot of hoo-hah back then when he did it. Kudos to him, but his giant-killing exploits hasn't really been preserved in the Hall of Fame because he eventually didn't run deep into the competition (quarters, I think).
But Snute has my respect. He may not have peaked as high as Stephano, Naniwa and Jinro, but he's the closest foreigner to be able to keep on par with top Koreans consistently across SC2 (almost becoming the anomaly, in fact). And I think what sets him apart from the likes of the wannabes and flavours-of-the-month is his mental fortitude. He doesn't give up when the chips are down. He digs in deep, even during the era of Korean dominance in HOTS.
(I really respect Snute. I think he's the best foreign hope for the future. It's somewhat sad that his polite disposition and positive contribution on TL doesn't attract as many fans as *cough cough* certain drama kings do. Snute displays the humility of a 'faceless' Korean pro (maybe that's why he's not foreigner enough for some people to root for with stronger passion). More foreigners should be like Snute. )
I think that Nerchio demonstrated in shoutcarft that he has the potential to win the whole thing. Yes there was latency, yes it was bo1 and yes many Korean pros arnt as used to online tourneys. Still he beat, Byun,Maru,rouge, and myunsick all in the same streak last week he beat dear and Gumiho. This suggests that Nerchio has a dark horse chance to win the whole thing.
Also it hurt my Terran soul to watch him waltz over the gsl champ, and make it look easy doing it.
Q: Nerchio has recently defeated many Koreans in a foreign tournament and shown confidence. What are your thoughts on that?
A: I looked up the VODs, but I don't see any difference(from past foreigners). As far as I know the tournament was held in European server, and he won't be much of a threat if he plays in Korea.
It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server.
ps; sorry already posted this in tourney thread, how do I delete the post?
EPT
Solar, is attending Kespa Cup too. Did you see his series against Dark? Did anything stand out to you?
Problem with ZvZ is that if you really want to conquer the match-up you need to practice 1 or 2 months with focused ZvZ practice and then you are going to suffer in other match ups. ZvZ is just that much harder to play consistently good.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8A1PndS.jpg)
