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rednusa
651 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions... | ||
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Wrath
3175 Posts
On September 07 2016 04:40 rednusa wrote: Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)? This year seems to have the smallest crowd for PL ever. Last year looked bigger. I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 07 2016 04:40 rednusa wrote: Does anyone know what the live audience numbers were for this proleague final? Look quite big. And how does this compare historically (both in sc2 and broodwar)? Don't really know the exact numbers but i watched all of SC2 PL finals and the last one definitely wasn't the best. But any of them pale in comparison of BW godlen era PL. Just search for the videos of 2007-2010 on youtube. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV. According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e). | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On September 07 2016 18:40 insitelol wrote: According to rankedftw it's not only korea: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sx=a&sy=g Like, LoTV is a complete failure in terms of numbers.It just proves the fact that RTS genre is so niche and conservative (due its age/traditions or specific playerbase or w/e) that anything new is rather driving the players off than attracting new ones, the exact opposite of any other genre. I personally think RTS gameplay is so complex and can't be figured out quickly, it literally takes decades. No matter what people say i'm still convinced that HoTS was far from being figured out, but the most frustrating about LoTV was a feeling that you throw so much accumulated knowledge and experience away for the marketing needs (a new expansion release w/e). I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all. They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window. Why? To make us money, of course". | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On September 06 2016 11:46 PharaphobiaSC wrote: Why can't those 2 games exists togeter, have a pro scene and being supported by each other? This is what bugs me most. I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway. I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On September 07 2016 19:11 AbouSV wrote: This is what bugs me most. I don't watch/play BW even though it took few hundred hours of my childhood, because I am not so found of the way the game works. However I quite happy that there are more BW tournament and activity in general anyway. More BW = more RTS = good! And contrary to DotA + LoL or CS + whatever, this is Blizzard + Blizzard anyway. I know I'll become an open target by saying this, but I'd even like some sort of PL with both SCII and BW. You want Flash and Zest in the same team again? There, you have it. This is mostly a revenge story. Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ". And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned. Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today. | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 07 2016 18:20 insitelol wrote: Thanks a lot for the info, guys, especially coming from the natives. Will take that into considiration. Well, if everything's so grim as you describe for SC2 in korea then blizzards policy in that regard is really... strange? Like accroding to you the only thing that's keeping sc2 alive is blizzard investing tons of money into a black hole. It just boggles my mind how a company of that level can make such awefull decisions... That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway. On September 07 2016 19:11 Jae Zedong wrote: I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all. They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window. Why? To make us money, of course". I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better. What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked. On September 07 2016 20:51 RealityIsKing wrote: This is mostly a revenge story. Back when Blizzard forced BW to make the switch, there are thousands upon thousands of posts telling BW fans to "get with the time" and to "stop playing a game with 'shitty graphics' ". And if you even to dare question Blizzard's decision on design and such, you would straight up get banned. Without Blizzard forcing SC2 down to Kespa's throat and without Kespa's naivete in accepting SC2, BW would definitely be at a better position than it is today. Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing". | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On September 07 2016 21:07 nighcol wrote: That's how esports works in general though, with the assumption that supporting the scene will produce more sales. Of course for non-f2p titles that connection may be more suspect. It's true that putting their money in a region that isn't really bringing in the cash (Korea) is fairly unique about the SC2 situation but then again the Korean pro scene is and was followed by the western audience. The pro gamers aren't the ones that will make it profitable with just their own purchases in any region anyway. I think SC2 absolutely needed this long term commitment to making even large changes from them to developing it as WoL was very rough at the start. It did get much better but more was still needed and this continued with HotS. LotV isn't perfect either but I think many of the changes introduced with the expansions have been for the better. What I won't disagree with is that the traditional cardboard box model of monetization doesn't fit esports very well. The development could have gone better if it had been more gradual instead of holding off big changes until an expansion drops. It's just that making the changes required some way to make money and I'm not sure which other model, if any, would've worked. Where is this "forced" coming from? While there was a previous legal battle it did result in an agreement for continuing the BW broadcasts. is there any evidence that when the switch occurred they didn't choose themselves to gamble and try to go with SC2? Of course Blizzard probably promised monetary support but that's not something you'd call "forcing". At the semi-finals of the last BW OSL, they hold interviews with Blizzard executive where Blizzard executive said: "We know that BW made huge contribution to eSport but not it is the time to make the switch." And ever since, no BW broadcast took place after BW PL ended (and before SBenu), effectively forcing BW to end. | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On September 07 2016 21:28 RealityIsKing wrote: At the semi-finals of the last BW OSL, they hold interviews with Blizzard executive where Blizzard executive said: "We know that BW made huge contribution to eSport but not it is the time to make the switch." And ever since, no BW broadcast took place after BW PL ended (and before SBenu), effectively forcing BW to end. Yes, I watched that and the choice of words was very unfortunate. Neither of those facts really point to Blizzard really forcing the issue though. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On September 07 2016 22:22 nighcol wrote: Yes, I watched that and the choice of words was very unfortunate. Neither of those facts really point to Blizzard really forcing the issue though. We know that both parties settled and by Blizz's statement there, it is probably included in one of the settlement cause. And I remember there being a post with OGN renewal with Blizzard and one of the contract line was "can now broadcast both SC2 and SC1." | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 07 2016 19:11 Jae Zedong wrote: I find the fact that they planned both HotS and LotV way before they even released WoL proves that Blizzard doesn't take esports seriously at all. They basically said in 2008: "yeah we're going to release SC2 in 2010, but we WILL change it completely over the next 5 years. It doesn't matter if the balance turns out perfect and everyone loves it, we have PLANNED two complete overhauls of how the game is played, throwing the entire meta out the window. Why? To make us money, of course". I wouldn't say it's because they don't take it seriously. I would say there is too many cooks in the kitchen and when they try to listen to everyone plus their granny things get muddled. SC2 early success was a given considering Blizzard's following. Some might say a game's self life has diminished with the excess of consoles and F2P model games being releashed today. Even in NES's heyday there were new games were being released all the time. With the constant changes and kiboshing the Korean market. This was coming from a mile away. It could have happened a lot sooner and with that said all things must come to an end someday. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Just like a couple of posters have already said, SC2 is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in Korea and has been for awhile. You go to famous gaming websites in Korea that have SC2 arcticles and barely any discussion nor comments unlike the BW days. Zero interest. No one plays this except for a very minor few. Just like the rest of the world, they have pointed out to the exact same problems regarding this game e.g. the hard counters, volatility etc etc the game just doesn't have longeivity because of the way its designed. | ||
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horrypotter
11 Posts
If proleague switch to BW again, so many fan will back. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Hard on making an eSport game. SC2 wasn't going to get the viewers of LoL etc and probably not the same as BW at its height either. If they focused on making a great game the eSport would have grew organically. There just isn't enough money right now in making a game specifically as an eSport and hoping people watch. A game should be enjoyed and consumed by the masses that will then tune in to see the best of the best play the game they enjoy. Same reason why people tune into certain Twitch channels. If Blizzard spent the same amount of money they've thrown at the eSport Scene for SC2 as they did in development and the game itself, bnet features, etc there would be a larger player base and private companies supporting the eSport scene with money coming in. They are trying to force something that isn't there just to try and compete with other games. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16087 Posts
On September 07 2016 18:22 Wrath wrote: This year seems to have the smallest crowd for PL ever. Last year looked bigger. I'm not sure but it kinda seems that Korea preferred HotS over LotV. the matchfixing scandal is probably the main factor for that. | ||
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JensWalker
Canada20 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
 So yeah without sc2 proleague i doubt there will be a reason for kespa teams to sponsor teams, which means no korean sc2 in the long run. | ||
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TheXalorian
1 Post
Always hurts me when I read all the angry BW vs SC2 comments. I never got into BW before simply because it was just too hard for my little brain to understand and was way too hard to follow without some good english commentaries (back in the day. Got hooked by SC2 during WoL, watched a lot of it, played a ton... got bored after a while tho (overdose). Got back into it recently (when I realised I could actually watch the GSL vods for free directly from twitch, never occured to me before for some reasons.), LotV is really not the best to watch sadly (for my taste : I hate tankivac, I love PvP tho, don't know why), but I still have a blast. Discovered the joy of BW with ASL casted in english, super fun to watch. At the peak of SC2, there was just way too much content for me to follow anyway. I know the scene is not in the best of shape and I hope it doesn't die anytime soon, but weirdly enough, it's actually the most fun I even had as a casual watcher : I get to watch two different RTS, both casted by fantastic casters in english, both played at the highest level there is, both easily available in vod format in HQ. I hope Proleague doesn't die off. If it's only SC2 again next season, i'm gonna be happy. If it goes back to BW because the Korean scene is bigger and because of the rumored BW HD, i'm gonna be happy that proleague still exist. If they switch, it's probably because it's the only way for them to survive. Is it so hard to just enjoy a scene the way it is? Just accept that it will probably never be as big, simply because of how hard RTS is to play/understand? For aspiring pro players, I understand how frustrating that could be. For viewers tho... i'm not sure how long it will last, but isn't it a great time to be a SC fan? I know i'm having a blast watching PL/GSL/ASL and since the numbers (for possibly the worst timezone of all for us, foreigners) are pretty good on twitch for these three tournaments, I can't be the only one. | ||
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