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According to liquipedia the Cyclone's cooldown is 4 seconds (real time), 6 seconds (blizzard time), and this has been the case since the beta ended (actually, since the beginning of the beta).
However in game it's now 9 (!) seconds. Since it's unlikely that they meant to stealth nerf the unit, I'm pretty sure this is a bug.
Also, the anti-air attack benefits from weapon upgrades even though it's still spell damage and ignores armor.
I don't know how long the unit's been broken, but it seems pretty stupid to try and balance a unit that doesn't even have the correct stats.
Edit: Added some gifs for reference:
UThermal vs Showtime, Dusk Towers, Dreamhack Leipzig 2016, Patch 3.1.1 (before January 29th balance update):
http://imgur.com/OopiQf8
Polt vs Nerchio, Invader, Dusk Towers, WCS Spring Circuit Championship 2016, Patch 3.2.2 (after January 29th balance update):
http://imgur.com/RkUuM3i
Current, Patch 3.3.1:
http://imgur.com/aJMPBln
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Hmm, will have to test this.
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To make sure I wasn't crazy, I tried resuming from an old replay (patch 3.1.1, UThermal vs Showtime on Dusk Towers, Dreamhack Leipzig Open 2016 from january). Lock-on had a 4 second cooldown.
So...yeah, cyclone be busted yo.
Edit: To make extra certain this wasn't a tooltip bug or something silly like that, I timed the lock-on cooldown manually. Definitely 4 seconds in the resume-from-replay. Definitely 9 seconds in game currently.
Edit2: Fixed replay title
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Haha I've tried to go mass cyclones a few times in team games, and gotten rocked with them. I distinctly remember thinking "wow they nerfed the cooldown immensely from the beta." Seems like it may have been a mistake, unless you're missing a patch notes somewhere and liquipedia simply hasn't been updated to reflect the new stats, which is very possible.
All in all, with such a short lock on range, I can't imagine cyclones becoming that useful anyways (also a reason mass cyclones will never be too strong, I'm not sure why Blizzard is so worried).
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Well, one thing's for sure, we're not going to get an accurate picture of the unit's strength when it's currently running with more than double the intended cooldown.
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Tried a newer replay, patch 3.2.2, Polt Vs Nerchio on Invader, WCS Spring Circuit Championship This time the tooltip listed 4 seconds, but started counting down from 8 seconds (actual time 9 seconds).
To summarize:
Currently: Tooltip: 9 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds
3.2.2: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds (after the Jan 29th balance update, before current balance update)
3.1.1: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 4 seconds (before the Jan 29th balance update)
So it looks like the previous (January 29th) update broke something.
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On June 01 2016 10:05 Athenau wrote:Tried a newer replay, patch 3.2.2, Polt Vs Nerchio on Invader, WCS Spring Circuit Championship This time the tooltip listed 4 seconds, but started counting down from 8 seconds (actual time 9 seconds). To summarize: Currently: Tooltip: 9 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds 3.2.2: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds (after the Jan 29th balance update, before current balance update) 3.1.1: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 4 seconds (before the Jan 29th balance update) So it looks like the previous (January 29th) update broke something.
If that's true than it's kind of funny how nobody noticed this yet. Who builds cyclones anyway?
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I was looking through the forums to see if it was mentioned anywhere. There was 1 dude that reported it on May 11th of this year, but no other mentions. It wasn't even in its own dedicated thread. Got lost on page like 16 of some balance post. Let me dig it up again.
Edit:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20743755309?page=8#145
only mention of it I could find on the forums.
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Cyclone is still a joke unit. =/
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I am surprised Ruff did not notice this. He uses cyclones pretty regularly on his stream.
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I was a regular ruff viewer as well--strangely enough, his cyclone play seemed to get less effective after January
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Just goes to show how little people use or care about the cyclone.
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One of the new terran units has double the intended cooldown on it's primary ability since January and people start noticing in June.
More evidence that the Cyclone is a joke unit and needs a complete redesign.
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Well, this is certainly odd and hillarious at the same time >_<
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if tooltip showing 9 seconds...then mb its not a bug, but a shadow patch as you mentioned
...but wiki tells it's 4 sec.. ;/
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On June 01 2016 15:41 TedBurtle wrote:
if tooltip showing 9 seconds...then mb its not a bug, but a shadow patch as you mentioned
The tooltip and the ability weren't updated at the same time though. Which means it's very possible that someone realized the tooltip was wrong later on, and fixed the tooltip without realizing that it was in fact the ability that was off.
This is hilarious though. I'm imagining two interns at Blizzard taking bets as to whether they can sneak minor balance changes by without David Kim (or the community) noticing.
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On June 01 2016 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 15:41 TedBurtle wrote:
if tooltip showing 9 seconds...then mb its not a bug, but a shadow patch as you mentioned This is hilarious though. I'm imagining two interns at Blizzard taking bets as to whether they can sneak minor balance changes by without David Kim (or the community) noticing.
Time to start double checking battlecruiser stats.
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On June 01 2016 16:01 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 01 2016 15:41 TedBurtle wrote:
if tooltip showing 9 seconds...then mb its not a bug, but a shadow patch as you mentioned This is hilarious though. I'm imagining two interns at Blizzard taking bets as to whether they can sneak minor balance changes by without David Kim (or the community) noticing. Time to start double checking battlecruiser stats.
It was OP all along!
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Holy shit the cyclone AA is spell damage? I didn't know this was a thing already, they should be giving those sweet "hollow-point bullets" to the Battlecruiser asap too.
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On June 01 2016 10:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 10:05 Athenau wrote:Tried a newer replay, patch 3.2.2, Polt Vs Nerchio on Invader, WCS Spring Circuit Championship This time the tooltip listed 4 seconds, but started counting down from 8 seconds (actual time 9 seconds). To summarize: Currently: Tooltip: 9 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds 3.2.2: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 9 seconds (after the Jan 29th balance update, before current balance update) 3.1.1: Tooltip: 4 seconds, Actual: 4 seconds (before the Jan 29th balance update) So it looks like the previous (January 29th) update broke something. If that's true than it's kind of funny how nobody noticed this yet. Who builds cyclones anyway?
haha that's exactly what i thought
Good find though
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On June 01 2016 11:39 ihatevideogames wrote:
One of the new terran units has double the intended cooldown on it's primary ability since January and people start noticing in June.
More evidence that the Cyclone is a joke unit and needs a complete redesign.
Err no dude, it's just more evidence that we, the community, are not testing stuff. We say "cyclone sucks!" but we don't even do the basic testing to prove our points.
We just can't be taken seriously, what comes out of our mouth is just gibberish.
Personally, as a terran, I never actually tested the cyclone because I believed other people when they told me it sucked, and now I feel extremely stupid.
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On June 01 2016 20:57 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 11:39 ihatevideogames wrote:
One of the new terran units has double the intended cooldown on it's primary ability since January and people start noticing in June.
More evidence that the Cyclone is a joke unit and needs a complete redesign. Err no dude, it's just more evidence that we, the community, are not testing stuff. We say "cyclone sucks!" but we don't even do the basic testing to prove our points. We just can't be taken seriously, what comes out of our mouth is just gibberish. Personally, as a terran, I never actually tested the cyclone because I believed other people when they told me it sucked, and now I feel extremely stupid.
Thing is, this situation should have never happened. This tells a lot about the quality of internal testing, and to an extent, the commitment towards this game. Leaving that aside, the fact that Cyclone didn't gained traction (as a mainstay terran unit), kinda explains why this issue was spotted so late by the community.
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On June 01 2016 21:16 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 20:57 Gwavajuice wrote:On June 01 2016 11:39 ihatevideogames wrote:
One of the new terran units has double the intended cooldown on it's primary ability since January and people start noticing in June.
More evidence that the Cyclone is a joke unit and needs a complete redesign. Err no dude, it's just more evidence that we, the community, are not testing stuff. We say "cyclone sucks!" but we don't even do the basic testing to prove our points. We just can't be taken seriously, what comes out of our mouth is just gibberish. Personally, as a terran, I never actually tested the cyclone because I believed other people when they told me it sucked, and now I feel extremely stupid. Thing is, this situation should have never happened. This tells a lot about the quality of internal testing, and to an extent, the commitment towards this game. Leaving that aside, the fact that Cyclone didn't gained traction (as a mainstay terran unit), kinda explains why this issue was spotted so late by the community.
DK: Dont worry community, we do lots of internal testing for the cyclone.
reality: its stats are off since January.
which makes me wonder if DK actually ever opened the data editor and looked at the stats of the unit/ability/weapon to consider changes.
On June 01 2016 20:57 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 11:39 ihatevideogames wrote:
One of the new terran units has double the intended cooldown on it's primary ability since January and people start noticing in June.
More evidence that the Cyclone is a joke unit and needs a complete redesign. Err no dude, it's just more evidence that we, the community, are not testing stuff. We say "cyclone sucks!" but we don't even do the basic testing to prove our points. We just can't be taken seriously, what comes out of our mouth is just gibberish. Personally, as a terran, I never actually tested the cyclone because I believed other people when they told me it sucked, and now I feel extremely stupid.
Lots of people did try to play with the cyclone. True I dont look at the tooltip or its exact stats when playing with the unit. I dont feel like I have to verify if blizzard does its job correctly. That is why they have quality control.
And even if your statement were true, that we didnt notice it sooner, because we are not testing stuff, then you could argue the same with Blizzard internal testing team.
EDIT: i would also be surprised if they acknowledged the mistake in the next community update.
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This is quite hilarious 
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Maybe cyclone could be semi-useful after they fix this bug?
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Updated the OP with some gifs so you guys can see what I'm talking about.
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On June 01 2016 23:01 MockHamill wrote:
Maybe cyclone could be semi-useful after they fix this bug?
I think the cyclone design will always make it either useless or overpowered.
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LOL
but to be fair it's a terran unit, balance whining is a T mainstay since the advent of SC, has nothing to do with the actual units
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On June 02 2016 00:19 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 23:01 MockHamill wrote:
Maybe cyclone could be semi-useful after they fix this bug? I think the cyclone design will always make it either useless or overpowered.
kinda agree though its design as an early game defensive tool you can choose to commit to may make some sense.
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Make sure to make a post on Battel.net forums.
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You know, players like Ruff, EJK, and even Gumiho were seeing occasional success with cyclone focused midgames late last year and into early Jan.
A 150/100 cyclone would be a significant buff to those styles, if it wasn't bugged so badly. I think we might see something interesting develop if Blizzard fixes this.
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On June 02 2016 00:45 Lillekanin wrote:
Make sure to make a post on Battel.net forums.
+1, please share link
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"You have been cycloned!!"  Cheers!
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First the bugged tank, now the cyclone. Nice.
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Does it not happen only in matches against Zergs? Then, it might be a feature, not a bug. In matches against Zergs, the Cyclone might be simply Bugged.
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Let me start double checking all stats, I always thought blizzard just hates my race
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so hereis how this looks in the editor:
the tooltip is:
Locks the Cyclone's weapons on the target unit, dealing
<d ref="Effect,LockOnCP,PeriodCount*Effect,CycloneWeaponDamage,Amount"/>
damage over
<d ref="Effect,LockOnCP,PeriodCount * Effect,LockOnCP,PeriodicPeriodArray[0]"/>
seconds. Can move while firing. Cancels if target moves out of range.
so in case you guys dont know, tooltips can have data references, meaning they get updated automatically since they point to the actual data field
the thing is, the effect the tooltip is referencing, doesnt seem to be part of the cyclone weapon any more:
![[image loading]](http://www.heptacraft.com/pics/cyclone.png)
my best guess is that they changed the way the weapon works, used new effects, but kept the tooltip referencing the old effect. the old effect is still in the editor, but not used by the lock on ability any more.
then they messed up the new effects, resulting in double cooldown, and never realized it since they just looked at tooltip and did no real testing
go blizzard.
im too lazy to actually try and figure out how exactly the weapon works in the editor, but i can tell from looking at it that it is needlessly complicated, just like the actual unit
in heptacraft i remade cyclones into a dedicated anti-air unit that can shoot while moving. no lock on gimmick required.
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"possibly including it in the weekly update" sounds like they might try to justify not fixing it.
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I'm actually excited to see the explanation for this.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
I actually noticed the cooldown seemed to be very long in gameplay but didn't feel odd enough to check the stats.. woah. 4 sec to 9 sec is huge. It was most obvious to me when breaking the lock on with phoenixes (pick up and insta-drop again) when they would not re-lock even if you lingered around them for too long.
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So, digging deep into the editor and making judicious use of the test document and its debug commands, supposedly:
1. Lock-On should have a cooldown of 12 blizzard seconds (that starts when the ability ends or is cancelled)
- the in-game performance matches the data editor: working as expected. However, the question is whether the data field should read 6 instead of 12 like it currently does
2. Lock-On's button calculates the duration of the ability by multiplying the values from 2 data fields [# of periodic effects * duration of periodic effects].
-> This value matches what the data editor predicts and what the in-game tool-tips states (20 blizzard seconds, 14 real seconds)
3. Lock-On's button calculates the damage of the ability by multiplying the values from 2 data fields [# of periodic effects * damage of impact effect]
-> This value is NOT correct according to the data editor
-> according to the DE, this should be 18*20 = 360. the in-game tooltip and liquipedia lists 400.
4. Lock-On should fire up to 20 times, 1 per second. Each attack should do 18 ranged damage. Each attack should have an armour reduction of 1.
-> the in-game performance does NOT match the data editor.
-> Firing period is correct
-> But each attack is doing a flat 20 damage with no signs of armour reduction (400 total, as the tooltip states)
*note that [Spell] type damage is simply a tag among other tags. It just so happens that there are no spell-type damage effects in the game that also have armour reduction values. However, that Sentry - Guardian Shield does not reduce the damage suggests that this is indeed a spell-type damage effect
Conjecture: blizzard is doing another one of its phantom 'server-side' change to the damage field of Lock-On that does not appear in the editor for whatever frustrating reason. In the past, this has happened on many occasions
Supporting evidence for Conjecture:
- When I manually make a change to the value of lock-on's weapon damage to 100 with 1 armour reduction, the map prioritizes the new change over blizzard's phantom change. As expected, the in-game tool-tip correctly displays 2000 damage; the cyclone also correctly deals 100 damage and is affected by armour reduction
5. Lock-On, on the surface appears, to be an extraordinarily complicated ability with many unnecessary parts. However, about 1/3 of its parts is dedicated to the aesthetic effect of having the missiles shooting alternately from the left and then right pods.
- Another 1/3 is for deciding how to make an auto-cast ability that mimics some but not all of a proper Weapon's characteristics.
- The last 1/3rd accounts for how the ability can do separate things to Air or Ground units and how the single ability switches between air and ground modes
****
tl;dr: Cooldown value isn't bugged; it just may not be what it's supposed to be
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On June 02 2016 09:22 The_Frozen_Inferno wrote:
tl;dr: Cooldown value isn't bugged; it just may not be what it's supposed to be
In the absence of patch notes, it should be assumed that the current behavior is a bug over an undocumented balance change.
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Talking of bugged units, anyone have notice how strange a sieged liberator behave when abducted by a viper ? ( i know it's not very common )
Last time i played it, the liberator stay sieged after the abduct (he doesn't attack air and can't move).... but with no active siege zone whatsoever.
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Conjecture: blizzard is doing another one of its phantom 'server-side' change to the damage field of Lock-On that does not appear in the editor for whatever frustrating reason. In the past, this has happened on many occasions
The fact that the editor damage values don't match the listed damage means that the editor values are stale. The server-side damage values haven't changed since the beta ended, and were explicitly specified in the beta patch notes:
October 15, 2016 Beta Balance Update
All signs point to an unintended change. It may be as simple as accidentally removing the server-side cooldown value, letting the client-side value take precedence.
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This is a pretty big bug that they'd better hotfix faster than they slowfixed the Phoenix bug in WoL
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I'm surprised blizzard didn't notice it with all the internal testing they're doing.
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On June 02 2016 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm surprised blizzard didn't notice it with all the internal testing they're doing.
I'm sure they were testing us to see how much attention we pay.
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On June 02 2016 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:
I'm surprised blizzard didn't notice it with all the internal testing they're doing.
never gets old
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[B]5. Lock-On, on the surface appears, to be an extraordinarily complicated ability with many unnecessary parts. However, about 1/3 of its parts is dedicated to the aesthetic effect of having the missiles shooting alternately from the left and then right pods.
- Another 1/3 is for deciding how to make an auto-cast ability that mimics some but not all of a proper Weapon's characteristics.
- The last 1/3rd accounts for how the ability can do separate things to Air or Ground units and how the single ability switches between air and ground modes
The more I think about the Cyclones ability the more it becomes obvious that it is just another case of really poor design. Instead of creating a unit that is fast and can be used for hit and run with manual kiting they give it an ability that resembles the same thing but only requires you to lock on and run away while staying in range. Abilities on units exist to create more strategic and tactical depth but this ability does neither of those things. It just makes the unit harder to balance and supposedly easier to use.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
On June 02 2016 13:11 eviltomahawk wrote:
This is a pretty big bug that they'd better hotfix faster than they slowfixed the Phoenix bug in WoL
Which bug was that again?
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On June 02 2016 20:39 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 13:11 eviltomahawk wrote:
This is a pretty big bug that they'd better hotfix faster than they slowfixed the Phoenix bug in WoL Which bug was that again?
I think it was that the phoenix remained "stunned" after the unit that was graviton beamed was killed.
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No one noticed because no one used cyclones xD I tried to make them work in mech play, but they just suck. TvP excepted maybe, since they can burst down immortals very quickly if correctly protected from blink stalkers. But in TvZ and TvT, the thor with the new AA is so much better in every regard.
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The bug where the cyclone fails to lock on with autocast turned on when it's amoved at something still exists too. You can see it happen at 8:40 in game 1 of TY vs Hush.
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On June 03 2016 02:53 TheWinks wrote:
The bug where the cyclone fails to lock on with autocast turned on when it's amoved at something still exists too. You can see it happen at 8:40 in game 1 of TY vs Hush.
When you a move it goes in to it's normal attack range of 5; if it has autocast on, then it also locks on at range 7. Don't a move if you want just lock on but use the "c" hotkey.
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On June 03 2016 03:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 02:53 TheWinks wrote:
The bug where the cyclone fails to lock on with autocast turned on when it's amoved at something still exists too. You can see it happen at 8:40 in game 1 of TY vs Hush. When you a move it goes in to it's normal attack range of 5; if it has autocast on, then it also locks on at range 7. Don't a move if you want just lock on but use the "c" hotkey.
This was supposed to have been fixed as well. I tested it and it worked for me (when it successfully cast the ability anyway), if you have proof it's not you should post it in the bug report forum.
Cyclones will no longer move all the way into auto-attack range (range 5) after using the Lock On ability (range 7). Note that this does not prevent the Cyclone from inching forward while the ability is activating.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20059667/starcraft-ii-legacy-of-the-void-320-patch-notes-3-28-2016
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On June 03 2016 04:35 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 03:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 03 2016 02:53 TheWinks wrote:
The bug where the cyclone fails to lock on with autocast turned on when it's amoved at something still exists too. You can see it happen at 8:40 in game 1 of TY vs Hush. When you a move it goes in to it's normal attack range of 5; if it has autocast on, then it also locks on at range 7. Don't a move if you want just lock on but use the "c" hotkey. This was supposed to have been fixed as well. I tested it and it worked for me (when it successfully cast the ability anyway), if you have proof it's not you should post it in the bug report forum. Show nested quote +Cyclones will no longer move all the way into auto-attack range (range 5) after using the Lock On ability (range 7). Note that this does not prevent the Cyclone from inching forward while the ability is activating. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20059667/starcraft-ii-legacy-of-the-void-320-patch-notes-3-28-2016
It's such a weird unit. If you a move to an enemy unit it will go in 5 range but lock on at 7. But if you just move it at 7 or 6 range from the enemy unit, it will just lock on and not go in 5 range.
Best way i found of using it is to manual lock on to a unit and shift click away.
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Thanks so much OP, you're doing an awesome work
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EPT
