EPTCharoisaur : That's why I say it depends on the level you play and the meta. "Turtling to ultra", yes maybe. For high level Europe, it does work well I'd agree. For high level Korea, it doesn't at all and it's actually extremely hard to pull of because you'll die before most of the time. It's a matter of perspective. And when I refered to mech at the end of HoTS, I did played a lot of high master terran playing mech with a sub-50 APM and a high winrate in TvZ. You can take it leave it do whatever you want with it. it is a fact.
Community Feedback Update - May 20 - Page 9
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
Charoisaur : That's why I say it depends on the level you play and the meta. "Turtling to ultra", yes maybe. For high level Europe, it does work well I'd agree. For high level Korea, it doesn't at all and it's actually extremely hard to pull of because you'll die before most of the time. It's a matter of perspective. And when I refered to mech at the end of HoTS, I did played a lot of high master terran playing mech with a sub-50 APM and a high winrate in TvZ. You can take it leave it do whatever you want with it. it is a fact. | ||
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FoxDog
170 Posts
then he could buff mech units substantially without fear of it being favored over bio david kim is not balancing the game for any communities, kespa or foreigner, he is biding for time while doing nothing naturally the 4 larvae change will not make it into the game, this is a decoy to take your attention away from what matters. To fix the game? i would revert everything back to heart of the swarm, add in new units and tweak them, this is what should have been done in the first place, and we probably should make a petition to see if we can get GML back in hots for those who want to play lategame because right now terran cant. The only reason i play lotv is for grandmasters rank, if i could get that in hots i would stay in hots, because i hate literally every change in lotv, the game feels like a chore of one build order, and i feel like a bot doing a build blindly with no ability to react or deviate. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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bObA
France300 Posts
On May 22 2016 22:56 TheWinks wrote: I think Dark vs TY on Dusk shows something needs to be done to make up for the loss of liberator AA. Corruptor/viper just rolled the air army even fighting over turrets with pre-nerf liberators. True and exactly what I said a bit earlier in the thread | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Game on Dusk TY turtled ultra hard and lost because Dark did not empale 3 armies before getting a corru/BL/viper composition. TY dealt little damage, while Dark built the exact composition needed to clean TY's army once then win with the repop. Game on Prion TY dealt extreme damage, while Dark when for hydras that allow even more harass. TY then just took his time to win a game that was already won very early. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On May 22 2016 07:31 Vanadiel wrote: It always depends on the meta and the playstyle of the moment though. Roach Ravager is easier, but its strength has diminished lately so it's less playable, and muta ling bane is actually way much harder with respect to HOTS since the nerf of larva and the liberator counter. At the period of time where mech was strong, I would say that this playstyle was the easiest of the game, I have played high master terrans with less than 50 APM. They just did nothing, turtling, and it was just about being patient. Well.... Zerg didn't win a single ZvP out of 7 games though. Actually, the only one winning against a Protoss was Maru. Yeah I would agree that Z is struggling vs P at the moment so I don't really disagree with that point of the feedback.. the bizarre thing to me is the point that T is the strongest race right now when it seems pretty clear that Protoss is dominating. I feel like the matchup that is closest to being balanced is TvZ but I don't see T being favored in that matchup - which is why nerfing any T units seems like a bad idea (reference hots widow mine nerf for TvZ when TvZ was very even results wise). I think one thing to be careful of is to use games like Maru vs Zest in PL finals as good examples of balance illustration - Maru was horrendously behind and the only reason he won is because Zest made huge blunders (which is really rare for him) - Maru took a eco / army and tech disadvantage and was able to get Zest to split his army incorrectly to force good engagements (which is something that T need to exploit) - but thinking that should work every game is not realistic - Zest will watch that replay and understand his mistakes (not a balance issue). You have multiple Protoss in Korea getting great results (Classic/Stats/SOS/Zest) where as TY and Maru are basically the only Terran's winning games - and still yet to take a major. TY's code S run went through 2 Terran players ro8/ro4 and Zest made pretty light work out of him. You have Korean Terran's playing in NA (Polt) losing to foreign Z and P in every tournament now - I'm not saying that means T needs a buff - it just seems like a nerf would make very little sense - we should learn from history on this type of situation (nerf widow mines fix "stale" meta even though game is balanced equates to Terran genocide from code S etc) - I would also like to point out I don't think we've seen enough games at the highest level where T exploits the mech/sky-terran style that may be possible and OP without some change - but typically there is a reason that those styles aren't used at the top level that the rest of the world hasn't come around to understanding yet. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On May 23 2016 01:34 JackONeill wrote: Come on guys, the two game are remotely comparable. Game on Dusk TY turtled ultra hard and lost because Dark did not empale 3 armies before getting a corru/BL/viper composition. TY dealt little damage, while Dark built the exact composition needed to clean TY's army once then win with the repop. Game on Prion TY dealt extreme damage, while Dark when for hydras that allow even more harass. TY then just took his time to win a game that was already won very early. Game on Dusk TY waste a shit tons of money in nuke to kill one creep tumor at a time, and got 6 misplaced spatioport killed by corruptors so he was never able to remax his army. I mean, maybe you are right and it's not a viable strat, but to deduce that from this one game... That's a big stretch. I honestly still believe it's a strong and very viable strategy on some maps. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16079 Posts
On May 22 2016 21:35 Vanadiel wrote: I won't say that it doesn't work though, if he didn't waste thousands of nuke to kill creep tumor, I'm not sure how the game would have turned out. At the very least he might have been able forced a draw. By the way, he's still doing it and looks evenly strong in this game. Charoisaur : That's why I say it depends on the level you play and the meta. "Turtling to ultra", yes maybe. For high level Europe, it does work well I'd agree. For high level Korea, it doesn't at all and it's actually extremely hard to pull of because you'll die before most of the time. It's a matter of perspective. And when I refered to mech at the end of HoTS, I did played a lot of high master terran playing mech with a sub-50 APM and a high winrate in TvZ. You can take it leave it do whatever you want with it. it is a fact. APM isn't an indicator for skill. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
True statement but it is relevant when discussing degree of difficulty in play. As a Terran - I don't have any problem with changes that prevent the end of HOTS horror show of turtle mech vs. hive tech for 45 minutes until the map is mined out or 1 player dies of boredom. I don't agree at all that a player with 50 apm should be able to compete at the highest level of play in this game - even ignoring the obvious spectator issues that these types of matches cause. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
I agree. You were the one using APM as an argument in the first place. I believe a discussion about which race is easier is completely irrelevant, because there is no clear indicator for skill. It completely depends on the style you like, the level at which you play and the meta of the moment which fits (or not) your play-style. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20335 Posts
It's not only a bad indicator of skill, it's also a bad indicator of how fast you are (especially when used to compare people who are not playing the same race and same style) | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On May 23 2016 01:46 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah I would agree that Z is struggling vs P at the moment so I don't really disagree with that point of the feedback.. the bizarre thing to me is the point that T is the strongest race right now when it seems pretty clear that Protoss is dominating. I feel like the matchup that is closest to being balanced is TvZ but I don't see T being favored in that matchup - which is why nerfing any T units seems like a bad idea (reference hots widow mine nerf for TvZ when TvZ was very even results wise). I think one thing to be careful of is to use games like Maru vs Zest in PL finals as good examples of balance illustration - Maru was horrendously behind and the only reason he won is because Zest made huge blunders (which is really rare for him) - Maru took a eco / army and tech disadvantage and was able to get Zest to split his army incorrectly to force good engagements (which is something that T need to exploit) - but thinking that should work every game is not realistic - Zest will watch that replay and understand his mistakes (not a balance issue). You have multiple Protoss in Korea getting great results (Classic/Stats/SOS/Zest) where as TY and Maru are basically the only Terran's winning games - and still yet to take a major. TY's code S run went through 2 Terran players ro8/ro4 and Zest made pretty light work out of him. You have Korean Terran's playing in NA (Polt) losing to foreign Z and P in every tournament now - I'm not saying that means T needs a buff - it just seems like a nerf would make very little sense - we should learn from history on this type of situation (nerf widow mines fix "stale" meta even though game is balanced equates to Terran genocide from code S etc) - I would also like to point out I don't think we've seen enough games at the highest level where T exploits the mech/sky-terran style that may be possible and OP without some change - but typically there is a reason that those styles aren't used at the top level that the rest of the world hasn't come around to understanding yet. If you actually watched some of the korean sc2 scène you would know zerg is actually struggling in TvZ. Long time ago since zerg actually won a series vs terran in an offline setting until today. And Dark seems like the only one that can actually manage to do it. In gsl Zerg got stomped hard, in proleague they have about 42% winrate in both matchups, and in recent qualifiers they performed very bad. I think the ZvP issues will actually be fixed with the incoming immortal nerf. The ZvT midgame won't change at all, ling bling styles just take so much economy and larva to play properly and just isn't efficient enough. Roach ravager is pretty much figured out now in Korea. Surely if you buff larva the that would break zerg early game economy for other styles since ravagers and lurkers are so strong and got added in. But ling bling muta midgame certainly needs some kind of buff to make ZvT fair again. | ||
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DalaiiLameR
42 Posts
theres not rly anything new in lotv that allows the zerg to be more greedier than in hots (like overcharge for toss), so i believe, that the zerg macro would reset to where it was in hots and wol. that means, that the zerg should always have the better eco. i think noone can rly predict all the consequenses of the larva change, but i trust korean pros, if they say, that this would be ok for the game. like i said in an earlier post, blizz is talking to alot of pros (and not just zergs), so im assuming, that even the non-zerg pros are okay with that maybe-change. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20335 Posts
But ling bling muta midgame certainly needs some kind of buff to make ZvT fair again. I think that Lib anti-light anti-air splash is more of a barrier for muta play right now well, toss and terran did defend zerg at hots and wol with 4 larva per inject Mule and Chrono Boost both recieved large nerfs at the same time that Inject got reduced from +4 larvae to +3 theres not rly anything new in lotv that allows the zerg to be more greedier than in hots (like overcharge for toss), so i believe, that the zerg macro would reset to where it was in hots and wol Different timings, new zerg units/mechanics and rework of warpgate (takes 5x longer to warp to a proxy pylon unless there is a finished gateway on it) made most WOL-HOTS era PvZ all-ins impossible | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On May 22 2016 00:46 DomeGetta wrote: This feedback really doesn't seem legit based on what we just saw in the PL finals. 15 games - 3 Terrans fielded and 1 victory. Why would you not field the strongest race? Saving secret stats for the grand finals... | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17649 Posts
On May 23 2016 03:50 Cyro wrote: APM is literally tied to race; 50 supply of zerglings gives 4x more actions than 50 supply of zealots by some measurements. It's not only a bad indicator of skill, it's also a bad indicator of how fast you are (especially when used to compare people who are not playing the same race and same style) my APM is always higher when i play Zerg and i think i'm just as fast with Zerg as with the other 2 races. so i agree its a bad indicator of how fast one is. However, it can indicate a ceiling on your speed with the particular race you are using if you have a carefully planned out hotkey set up. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9442 Posts
On May 23 2016 06:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: my APM is always higher when i play Zerg and i think i'm just as fast with Zerg as with the other 2 races. so i agree its a bad indicator of how fast one is. However, it can indicate a ceiling on your speed with the particular race you are using if you have a carefully planned out hotkey set up. APM is useless. Mechanics on the other hand can roughly be defined as EAPM * mouse accuracy. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 23 2016 06:22 Hider wrote: APM is useless. Mechanics on the other hand can roughly be defined as EAPM * mouse accuracy. No it cannot. For one thing, how can you define eapm? For another thing, that's not how mechanics is defined. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17649 Posts
On May 22 2016 22:04 FoxDog wrote: If david kim was confident terran bio was balanced to the point it competes with protoss and z at the highest level then he could buff mech units substantially without fear of it being favored over bio david kim is not balancing the game for any communities, kespa or foreigner, he is biding for time while doing nothing naturally the 4 larvae change will not make it into the game, this is a decoy to take your attention away from what matters. To fix the game? i would revert everything back to heart of the swarm, add in new units and tweak them, this is what should have been done in the first place, and we probably should make a petition to see if we can get GML back in hots for those who want to play lategame because right now terran cant. The only reason i play lotv is for grandmasters rank, if i could get that in hots i would stay in hots, because i hate literally every change in lotv, the game feels like a chore of one build order, and i feel like a bot doing a build blindly with no ability to react or deviate. i'm happy with the game and i don't want it going back to HotS. HotS is there and represents an alternative to LotV. i prefer the diversity of the 3 choices namely WoL, HotS and LotV. Some of my low league friends play WoL because they say HotS and LotV are too complex even though they liked their campaign missions. If you make a petition then i'll make a counter petition supporting LotV. I do not want the diversity between the 3 games diminished. Its bad for the player base. | ||
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