EPTUpcoming Balance Update - May 3rd - Page 14
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TKiFenris
Canada5 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 04 2016 03:30 Musicus wrote: There has been an update. The patch is delayed until May 22 and they want to change the feedback process. They saw that the community is not happy with most changes and there seems to be miscommunication/confusion. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20743714991 I'd say there is misalignment between what DK wants and what the community wants. Kims solution is often times a band aid, rather then fixing the core problems (Mutas, photon pylons); styles of play that he has a negative bias for(mech); etc. The communication is also bad because he tries to put this war of vision between him and the SC2 fans on simple miscommunication. He is not wrong or at odds with the player base, we are just confused you see. We are "stuck in an old way of thinking (when we disagree with him)"  And i thought Browder was bad lol | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2594 Posts
This smacks to me of mob rule and design by committee. There is absolutely a place in design for being open to community feedback and adopting good ideas from the outside, but there has got to be a captain in charge of the ship with a strong vision. I'm very concerned that the SC2 team seems to be lacking that vision and is making major design decisions based on the loudest voices in their community forums. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16061 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. And once he would tackle those things a lot of people would come out and say that 8 armor ultras are no longer a problem and it's good if pure bio can't deal with them unless the T is already ahead, that tankivacs are awesome and that parabomb is already too weak since the nerf. The community does not just have one opinion and it's impossible to please everybody. Once they intend to change something after listening to feedback from one side, the other side will come out and complain. I think the community only agrees on one thing, namely that bandaid changes, like the cannon buff which came out of nowhere, are bad. | ||
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NicolasJohnson
30 Posts
On May 04 2016 04:43 Charoisaur wrote: I don't think the changes are that bad but many people are frustrated because DK keeps ignoring the real issues like 8 armor ultras, 4 supply tempests, parasitic bomb and tankivacs. every community update a lot of people mention those things but DK keeps ignoring it and doesn't do anything to fix them. What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Swarmhost completly usless, the possibility of mutas forcing P into certain predictable situations, Liberators strong AA and Thors standing usless next to em. But the solutions of David are often heardbreaking and not understandable: Cheapter Swarmhosts that take up even more supply are no answer, as Swarmhost are one of the Zerg units you do not throw away to remix in something different but you use them over time again and again. The Cannons are a really band aid fix, as the problem is not the stuff from protoss that shoots up, but that Mutas can take damage for free and there is no risk for the high reward you get with their harass. The new Thor does not help agains capital ships. They never get in range of Broodlords, they do not deal enough damage to take out corrupters to protect the nerfed liberators, they cant get into range of the tempest and even the carrier can outmanouver em. As also 30+15 is not enough damage for a 6 supply, 2 sec single target attack. Not to forget that their ground attack gets completly useless against small units in high numbers. All of these units could be patched, but not in the way David wants em to patch and thus people have been cheering for David to do something, but his solutions... I dont know what he is doing in his internal testing. | ||
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bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16061 Posts
On May 04 2016 05:12 Musicus wrote: And once he would tackle those things a lot of people would come out and say that 8 armor ultras are no longer a problem and it's good if pure bio can't deal with them unless the T is already ahead, that tankivacs are awesome and that parabomb is already too weak since the nerf. The community does not just have one opinion and it's impossible to please everybody. Once they intend to change something after listening to feedback from one side, the other side will come out and complain. I think the community only agrees on one thing, namely that bandaid changes, like the cannon buff which came out of nowhere, are bad. of course there will be always people that disagree with certain things but from reading the comments for the community feedback updates those are by far the most complained about issues and with good reason. Ignoring things a huge part of the community wants to see changed isn't a good idea if you want to keep your playerbase happy. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16061 Posts
On May 04 2016 05:13 NicolasJohnson wrote: What's the deal with parasitic bomb ? It allows a player of superior skill to beat a full air army. If players of equal skill engage, then the terran player can snipe the vipers (the AI focuses them anyway with the other units) and the protoss player feedbacks them. Without parasitic bomb, the zerg player has to build spores everywhere and turtle, while they don't have the tools to do it cost effectively (since the swarm host has been dismantled, and for good reason). parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings | ||
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NicolasJohnson
30 Posts
On May 04 2016 06:38 Charoisaur wrote: parasitic bomb does huge amounts of damage without really allowing for counterplay. splitting only works if the zerg has only a few vipers, when he gets to many vipers no amount of splitting will save your units. In combination with broodlords which can only be countered by air units this is too strong and encourages cancerous mass air playstyles. snipe doesn't work if the zerg player pays attention because it gets interrupted by broodlings Oh ok so you talk about it as a problem in a zerg deathball with like queens infestors BLs corruptors and vipers, I get it, but the way I see it, parasitic bomb discourages (a bit) the opponent of going for "cancerous" mass air as you put it , and I don't know any pro zerg who repeateadly goes for mass air, maybe sometimes Snute, but that's not very "zerg". I fully agree with taking parasitic bomb out of the game but then, you should have to take the other air death balls out.What is more, I don't manage to kill a maxed protoss air army with it (I'm in masters league EU), and neither do the pros I talk to, so I don't think it is that OP. | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
Patch seems to have been scrapped? I don't want to make a new thread but there's a new community feedback | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
It really comes down to how aggressively the game designers feel about changing things. My metric would be BO variety at the expense of win rate or meta stability because I have nothing at stake, but win rates seem to be the dominant litmus test and pro feedback. I just hope the pros aren't just saying it's fine without leaving the safe meta. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
Some attentions for cyclone. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
Protoss Buff vs. Mutalisks Previously, this topic seemed to be clearly important to the community, but it seems to have completely changed the other way. Even though Mutalisks are clearly not an issue at the top of pro level, we believed it was a heavy community issue Muta has a big effect on the game @ pro level even if they're not seen often. If you were remove the mutalisk tomorrow the PvZ meta would drastically change overnight | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
Sector 1 - Design, the best thing he can do is play a lot, and listen to the community to what isnt fun and what is really fun, for both players in the game mind you. (a lot of things in SC currently are fun for one user, but makes other user wanna quit). Sector 2 - Balance - tweaking units stats and things that impact gameplay immidiately, he's best off listening to Kespa pros only. (The highest level). The bio air buff to cannons is something that is trying to adress sector 1 with a tool from sector 2. This doesn't work. The change to liberator air stems from a particular maru game vs leenock game a long time ago, zerg has adapted and moved past the problem. Things are very much up in the air right now - the only thing that should be nerfed or removed is the liberator range. (But this is a sympton of bad design- can end games instantly much like oracles, nydusses,). the 2 sectors are very overlapping, but David Kim is unable to change design things - so he is completly lost and lacks the tools to fix core problems in my opinion. We need changes to make gameplay more fun for both players a lot more than we need these tiny balance tweaks. And I have the feeling that David Kim is not the person who can make those changes. And I doubt they will ever happen. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
The Nova missions come to mind immediately, siege tanks that can hop around with an upgrade? That's awesome! Stimmed hellbats? Pretty fuckin cool and a great way to bridge the bio/mech gap. Reapers with spider mines? Slap that on the armory and suddenly keeping your early game reapers alive is a big deal! You simultaneously encourage players to kill those pesky reapers and encourage terran players to keep them alive. Regardless of meta, balance, or community feedback the SC2 design team has already come up with some great stuff. David please give yourself and your designers more credit and stop trying to please the vocal minority. People are gonna play starcraft regardless of how angry the forums are because the game is fun, not because it's perfectly fair for every player at every skill level on every map. | ||
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SilverBullet
Canada79 Posts
Would much rather see a terran mid-game nerf if it meant we could get the ultras reverted. They saw action all the time in HOTS and then blizzard decided to HALF marauder damage on them ... | ||
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