EPTBut now... I'll be back on the ladder in no time
Community Feedback Update - April 15 - Page 8
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True_Spike
Poland3425 Posts
But now... I'll be back on the ladder in no time | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On April 16 2016 03:27 TheoMikkelsen wrote: While the idea of changing the Immortal Barrier to less cooldown and less damage absorbed does sound cool enough, the intention does seem to be based around an overall nerf and that really troubles me. To me the immortal right now is the most fundamentally core unit Protoss has right now against all races as it really serves a key role against a variety of units in all matchups that otherwise could be hard to replace. It is about lategame. Mass immortals are too beefy. Lowering barrier but making cooldown shorter would solve that. I know its difficult to understand thats why i recommand everyone to think about what happens piece by piece, second by second. In lategame you have more units. That means a single unit receives more damage (you try to snipe immortals). If you lower the barrier, the immortal will die before it can activate the next barrier. In midgame you have less units. That means a single unit receives less damage. The immortal will survive long enough to activate the next barrier. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On April 16 2016 19:57 dust7 wrote: I think you missed avilo's point. The bulk of all players resides in Gold League or lower, these players are the foundation of this game. These players can't split like Van Damme and EMP all the Vipers at the same time. They simply lose their complete airforce in 10 seconds. It is not only parasitic bomb, there are a lot of maneuvers in the game that simply end the game if your reaction is not super fast and crisp but on the other hand these maneuvers are not too hard to execute for your opponent. These mechanics are the cause of frustrated players leaving the game. A game can be designed such that pro players can distinguish themselves and at the same time the tiniest mistake in lower leagues does not cause the obliteration of the whole army you spent 20 minutes to build up. Unfortunately, SC2 is not such a game. You miss the point too. Lets say the game was balanced for gold. How would the game look like? and how would it look like at pro level? Let me answer the first question: Yes, you are right, gold players cant micro like maru, thus marin vs baneling has more randomness and is based more on luck. Engagements are decided more or less by luck because of mistakes or because of the absence of skill. How can we balance that? We would need to make the game slower, units would need less damage, be less rewarding. Overall reduction of game tasks. Skill would matter less. Bw is a great game because i can beat an opponent with less, when i play smart. But a game that is balanced for gold players, doesnt offer that. It would be extremely difficult to get an edge in such a game. Sc2 is not as skill based as bw and look what happened. We have more random champions. At some point skill doesnt matter because there is nothing you can do, that makes a difference. Its like a roach battle, where only numbers matter. If the game is balanced at gold level. What will a proplayer do? People say you have an infinite amount of things to chose from, but they forget that not every action has the same weight. I can micro single roaches, but when my opponent has 3-5 roaches more, i will lose the fight. Micro is not always worth because the ai is so good at it. In bw units were dumb, if i microed my units, i could gain an edge. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20309 Posts
Still, it's incredible to read things like "P open phoenix to deter drops and ravagers". No, we don't : fast 3 gates is far safer vs those kind of all-ins. Do you even play the game ? I routinely play 1g - nexus - stargate against zerg and it comes too late to deter the scary attacks (including overlord drop). Am surprised to see this comment too. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9402 Posts
You miss the point too. Lets say the game was balanced for gold. How would the game look like? and how would it look like at pro level? The game can be balanced across all races while maintaing a very high skillcap as long as the skillcap and skillfloorfor all 3 races is similar. The issue right now is that Zerg is the easiest race and protoss seems to be the hardest. This is why changes such as +2 armor to Ultralisks were so atrocious because they just buffed the core stats of the biggest amove unit. Zerg need worse core stats and more stuff that rewards micro. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 17 2016 22:56 Hider wrote: The game can be balanced across all races while maintaing a very high skillcap as long as the skillcap and skillfloorfor all 3 races is similar. The issue right now is that Zerg is the easiest race and protoss seems to be the hardest. This is why changes such as +2 armor to Ultralisks were so atrocious because they just buffed the core stats of the biggest amove unit. Zerg need worse core stats and more stuff that rewards micro. That's an assumption, nothing more. edit: to be more clear, both your statement about the relative difficulty (what difficulty are we talking about here? Overall? Army control? Macro? Knowledge?) AND that it is even possible to have three unique races with three similar skill floors and skill ceilings at any stage of the game I doubt it is btw | ||
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lohdon
170 Posts
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HomeWorld
Romania903 Posts
So many community updates ... many countless balance test maps played ... and ?! nothing. Wasted time. This game stopped evolving a long time ago. I'm so afraid that Blizzard is still supporting WCS and peer tournaments just to save face... (and the marginal income if there's any left) | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On April 17 2016 14:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: given the limited resources Black had at his disposal at EALA as the studio was being dismantled due to funding cuts he did a great job with RA3. the ConquerCup results pretty much show that at the top level RA3 was pretty well balanced. I don't know if Technique is still around on this board. Ask him.. he can give you a detailed 30 page report on RA3s balance. Maybe not perfectly balanced.. but perfectly balancing a 3-race-diverse-race RTS in less than 1 year is nearly impossible. MAYBE Imperial Warriors were slightly at an advantage over PKs... maybe and if so.. its slight. Greg BLack did a fucking phenomenal job balancing RA3. PHENOMENAL. i've already outlined why the entire genre is in decline. it has nothing to do with the quality of any single title within the genre. your comments are like saying.. "you know if pacman were a better game every North American citiy and town would still have arcades in every shopping mall and arcade cabinets would be in every corner store and billiard hall just like 1983 ". THe giant macro forces at work causing the decline of the genre are far bigger than DK, BLack, ATVI... or even ATVI and MS and EA combined. And its these kind of giant macro forces that buried the entire arcade industry in NA. Maybe my words were a bit harsh. But please don´t misunderstand me. I think Greg Black is a great guy and yes he did a great job at balancing the game (Even with C&C 3). Just some decisions were questionable. I don´t hate him or the game (both RA 3 and SC 2). Im just worried about SC 2 and its future. I don´t want it to suffer the same fate RA 3 had. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
On April 18 2016 02:41 HomeWorld wrote: Quick question, what got changed in the past 3 MONTHS ? Answer: nothing. So many community updates ... many countless balance test maps played ... and ?! nothing. Wasted time. This game stopped evolving a long time ago. I'm so afraid that Blizzard is still supporting WCS and peer tournaments just to save face... (and the marginal income if there's any left) To be fair the meta evolved a lot in the meantime, so I can understand why they ended up changing nothing. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On April 18 2016 03:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be fair the meta evolved a lot in the meantime, so I can understand why they ended up changing nothing. So balance the game then. Stop look at the meta and balance the game instead? You dont think blizzard can do this? | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On April 17 2016 23:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: first statement is very true. Protoss doing alright at the top means that game is not very imbalanced there.That's an assumption, nothing more. edit: to be more clear, both your statement about the relative difficulty (what difficulty are we talking about here? Overall? Army control? Macro? Knowledge?) AND that it is even possible to have three unique races with three similar skill floors and skill ceilings at any stage of the game I doubt it is btw However the distribution of Protoss and Zerg players across the leagues and especially at lower leagues points at the relative difficulty of races being a problem, not balance. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On April 18 2016 04:15 Nazara wrote: first statement is very true. Protoss doing alright at the top means that game is not very imbalanced there. However the distribution of Protoss and Zerg players across the leagues and especially at lower leagues points at the relative difficulty of races being a problem, not balance. i don't think race distribution has anything to do with difficulty to play. A player with platin skill level will always be in platinum regardless of balance or difficulty to play. i think it has more to do with how fun a race is to play. If a race isn't very fun to play many players will quit playing and that influences the distribution. | ||
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HomeWorld
Romania903 Posts
On April 18 2016 03:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: To be fair the meta evolved a lot in the meantime, so I can understand why they ended up changing nothing. So, lets say that 0.01 % of current SC2 player base (and I'm being way too generous on that estimation ) is doing "alright" (NOT TRUE) due to current "meta" shifts (which if we are to be honest,there wasn't much "shifting" since last installment), that would be the "pro" players, right? What about the rest? Well, you see where this is going, and probably realize why this game has fallen into the deepest, darkest, hole of "no joy". Nonetheless, the game is still fixable, but not how it's done currently (now and then, there's a guy or two who sporadically makes some mind boggling changes to random units and brag about it on battle net forum claiming BALANCE). Admittedly, they got the PR part good, see the multitude of "community updates" or "calls for action" , just to instill the false sentiment that something is going on, that they care, when in reality nothing gets changed (excepting some QoL stuff that are trivial to implement) | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 17 2016 12:33 Cyro wrote: It's similar all the way to the top of the ladder aside from GM being a bit more balanced out EU/NA stats have more zerg & less terran Where are all the "protoss is easy" guys? I still think protoss' air is too in team games though. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On April 18 2016 06:16 Charoisaur wrote:i don't think race distribution has anything to do with difficulty to play. A player with platin skill level will always be in platinum regardless of balance or difficulty to play. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2i think it has more to do with how fun a race is to play. If a race isn't very fun to play many players will quit playing and that influences the distribution. This would imply that low level players dislike Zerg, but like Protoss. Unless you are a very, very good player, then Protoss is fun to play again. Quite a big assumption imo. If the race isn't fun to play, this may be because of two factors: 1. balance 2. how easy the race is If Protoss is UP, then we would clearly see it in Pro level, or even Grandmaster level. However this is not the case, so the race must be harder to get into, and is harder to learn. That's why Protoss players don't advance as easily from Bronze as for example the Zerg, which are a minority in Bronze and Silver. | ||
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Xamo
Spain880 Posts
On April 16 2016 03:48 TT1 wrote: plz buff the colossus, id come back to sc2. old ppl like me get arthritis from microing disruptors  I am SO MUCH identified with this post... | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24211 Posts
ha ha same, I loved the colo, a-move power ! | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 18 2016 08:47 [PkF] Wire wrote: ha ha same, I loved the colo, a-move power ! Maybe this is what protoss needs not to be the least played race but PvP was so stupid with colossi... | ||
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