EPTCommunity Feedback Update - April 8 - Page 10
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Buffs to Protoss may make PvT worse, so consider some T buff that helps early-mid TvP outside of MMMV, it's more balance work, but I feel worth it to continue to grow the strategic ecosystem. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
As a Zerg, i have to defend tons of harass that ten times better than what i can do with overlord drop : Hellion/banshe/reaper/adept/oracle/warprism/phoenix/medivac drop/takivac harass/liberator/DT. When i see P whining about zerg drop when they have phoenix out, it's just make me laugh. If you don't patrol with your phoenix, but prefer lift zerg worker, it's your fault if a drop enter in your base. Even with no stuff, You only have to pull probes, and they are faster than the speed overlord lol. Harassing as P/T become easier and easier with WOL/HOTS/LOTV, with a toons noobfriendly patchs, but Z can a little harass ? Oh no T/P will have to learn to defend, rather nerf it to death and add superfast banshee to help T (for what ? get 100% win on TvZ ?). | ||
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xtorn
4067 Posts
As a zerg player (yea lower leagues but still), I see a single positive outcome out of this decision: my fists will improve in strength as I will be hitting things so much more often. Blizzard wants to actually improve the boxing scene | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On April 11 2016 05:39 Tyrhanius wrote: If Zerg dropship is OP, what's about Medivac/warprism which are 10 times better. As a Zerg, i have to defend tons of harass that ten times better than what i can do with overlord drop : Hellion/banshe/reaper/adept/oracle/warprism/phoenix/medivac drop/takivac harass/liberator/DT. When i see P whining about zerg drop when they have phoenix out, it's just make me laugh. If you don't patrol with your phoenix, but prefer lift zerg worker, it's your fault if a drop enter in your base. Even with no stuff, You only have to pull probes, and they are faster than the speed overlord lol. Harassing as P/T become easier and easier with WOL/HOTS/LOTV, with a toons noobfriendly patchs, but Z can a little harass ? Oh no T/P will have to learn to defend, rather nerf it to death and add superfast banshee to help T (for what ? get 100% win on TvZ ?). zerg harass is not nerfed. In mid-lategame overlord drops are as strong as before. only the early game ALL-INS with drops get nerfed. also you got super-regenerating mutas, cracklings that kill everything and nydus worms that can't be denied so don't pretend like ony P/T harassment got buffed. | ||
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Comedy
487 Posts
On April 11 2016 06:39 Charoisaur wrote: zerg harass is not nerfed. In mid-lategame overlord drops are as strong as before. only the early game ALL-INS with drops get nerfed. also you got super-regenerating mutas, cracklings that kill everything and nydus worms that can't be denied so don't pretend like ony P/T harassment got buffed. Mate, Mid-Late game Harass as Zerg doesn't exist. The moment you start using overlords to drop in mid-late game you don't only lose the army that you dropped you also lose flying supply depots and supply block yourself, since there are always air units out. It's only mutalisks, and those are hard countered by liberators and phoenix, both are currently seen in every single pvz/tvz. As for nydus, the nydus itself and the units inside the nydus are a huge investment. The Warp prism and the speed medivac almost always escape. (because of their insane speed) Adept harass. Warp prism harass. Dt's right clicking spores. Oracle harass. Constant phoenix Harass. Banshee harass. Hellion harass. Liberator behind mineral harass. Boosted medivac drop harass. Etc etc. it does not compare. Zerg is by far the most frustating race to play because of all the things you gotta deal with - and now once again David Kim wants zergs to cringe because appearently speed banshees need to be easily accesible. FFs - there isnt a single zerg unit that is as fast as the speed banshee. Lol. To say that zerg options for harass are in anyway compareable to the other races is laughable. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On April 11 2016 00:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: there were a motherfucktonne of giant design mistakes during the dawn of the genre. the genre grew in the face of all those bad mistakes because watching 100 units kill each other simultaneously on screen was such a buzz. that's over now... i can watch that on my smart phone. and if your claim is the genre grew because of great design.. well C&C1 and Warcraft1 are still out there. Great design makes for a timeless classic. Go play them. You're not even making a point. I can watch your post on my smartphone. lol. You claim the RTS genre is toast. Go play a moba on your smartphone. ??? nvm that's stupid | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On April 11 2016 06:50 Comedy wrote: Mate, Mid-Late game Harass as Zerg doesn't exist. The moment you start using overlords to drop in mid-late game you don't only lose the army that you dropped you also lose flying supply depots and supply block yourself, since there are always air units out. It's only mutalisks, and those are hard countered by liberators and phoenix, both are currently seen in every single pvz/tvz. As for nydus, the nydus itself and the units inside the nydus are a huge investment. The Warp prism and the speed medivac almost always escape. (because of their insane speed) Adept harass. Warp prism harass. Dt's right clicking spores. Oracle harass. Constant phoenix Harass. Banshee harass. Hellion harass. Liberator behind mineral harass. Boosted medivac drop harass. Etc etc. it does not compare. Zerg is by far the most frustating race to play because of all the things you gotta deal with - and now once again David Kim wants zergs to cringe because appearently speed banshees need to be easily accesible. FFs - there isnt a single zerg unit that is as fast as the speed banshee. Lol. To say that zerg options for harass are in anyway compareable to the other races is laughable. That's actually a good thing for zerg. Way I see it, they are a well-designed race that doesn't rely on gimmicks to win. Meanwhile, T and P have to rely on cheap tricks and stupid gimmicks to win xvZ. I'd love to see all those gimmicks removed and replaced with actual strategies. | ||
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Comedy
487 Posts
On April 11 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote: That's actually a good thing for zerg. Way I see it, they are a well-designed race that doesn't rely on gimmicks to win. Meanwhile, T and P have to rely on cheap tricks and stupid gimmicks to win xvZ. I'd love to see all those gimmicks removed and replaced with actual strategies. lol please.. even if none of this harass is succesfull..the game is not over by any means. solid macro and immortals do the trick just fine ;p these are just scenarios that put stress on zerg and can end games instantly. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On April 11 2016 08:28 Comedy wrote: lol please.. even if none of this harass is succesfull..the game is not over by any means. solid macro and immortals do the trick just fine ;p these are just scenarios that put stress on zerg and can end games instantly. Are you implying that a terran or protoss player can just play a macro game vs zerg without harassing at all? Because that never ends well for the t or p player. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Really dislike the banshee direction. For me, i have always disliked the banshee, the interactions it brings to the table just comes off very short. Either you have the right amount to defend or you dont. It has so little to do with movement of the players. On top of that, its a very easy unit to "abuse", get a critical mass and be very effective while for the opponent it becomes really boring. For the spectator, if i were the spectator in this case, it wouldnt be excited or fun since it just feels lame to me. | ||
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DonDomingo
504 Posts
On April 11 2016 09:47 Foxxan wrote: I dont have much to add but since blizzard likes to see peoples opinion about stuff. Really dislike the banshee direction. For me, i have always disliked the banshee, the interactions it brings to the table just comes off very short. Either you have the right amount to defend or you dont. It has so little to do with movement of the players. On top of that, its a very easy unit to "abuse", get a critical mass and be very effective while for the opponent it becomes really boring. For the spectator, if i were the spectator in this case, it wouldnt be excited or fun since it just feels lame to me. Yeah, critical mass banshees are definitely plaugeing Proleague/GSL/SSL. Really wish Blizzard would nerf this blatantly broken unit!! | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On April 11 2016 09:57 DonDomingo wrote: Yeah, critical mass banshees are definitely plaugeing Proleague/GSL/SSL. Really wish Blizzard would nerf this blatantly broken unit!! Another 100% crap comment. I do have experience with critical mass air, and so do many other starcraft players. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 11 2016 06:39 Charoisaur wrote: zerg harass is not nerfed. In mid-lategame overlord drops are as strong as before. only the early game ALL-INS with drops get nerfed. also you got super-regenerating mutas, cracklings that kill everything and nydus worms that can't be denied so don't pretend like ony P/T harassment got buffed. Overlord drop are not strong at all. Overlord drop : 0.82, 2.62 with speed. Warprism drop : 4.13, 5.36 with upgrade. Medivac drop : 3.5, 5.94 with boost. And it's overlord drop that will be nerfed ! Mutas regenrating rate : 1,4 per seconds, shield regeneration of ALL Protoss units : 2,8 per seconds, just two times more than mutalisk, medivac heal rate : 12.6 per seconds, just 9 times better than mutalisk. But all we hear is "Mutas are OP with super regeneration", while we barely see mutas ouside ZvZ due to the addition to liberator, and +1 range for phoenix. Nyndus worm is just a all-in thing, imagine P/T will drop and Z knows 14s in advance where they will drop, and P/T can't cancel their drop, or drop another location. Will be a Powerful harass tool lol ? | ||
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zazzn
Canada54 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 11 2016 13:25 Tyrhanius wrote: Overlord drop are not strong at all. Overlord drop : 0.82, 2.62 with speed. Warprism drop : 4.13, 5.36 with upgrade. Medivac drop : 3.5, 5.94 with boost. And it's overlord drop that will be nerfed ! Mutas regenrating rate : 1,4 per seconds, shield regeneration of ALL Protoss units : 2,8 per seconds, just two times more than mutalisk, medivac heal rate : 12.6 per seconds, just 9 times better than mutalisk. But all we hear is "Mutas are OP with super regeneration", while we barely see mutas ouside ZvZ due to the addition to liberator, and +1 range for phoenix. Nyndus worm is just a all-in thing, imagine P/T will drop and Z knows 14s in advance where they will drop, and P/T can't cancel their drop, or drop another location. Will be a Powerful harass tool lol ? Overlords are also 100/0/0 flying units that give you 8 supply. That alone more than justifies their costs, no reason to even give them any drop capability at all, though the individual upgrades are quite an elegant solution since you can completely store the costefficiency of the drops into that upgrade. Which I agree, the efficiency of them is very bad to begin with (but they are also dirt cheap). I think it would be fair if they upped the costs and the speed of drop-overlords when making it lair. At the moment it is an early game gimmick with bits of mid/lategame applications. Though then again, I don't want to be fighting for even more worker-genocide in this game and the other way around - nerfs to medivac and prism - would be much more reasonable than making zerg drops better throughout the game. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
It would be like buffing Protoss with better wall offs to stop Speedling run-bys to help the matchup... it won't solve the fundamental issues Protoss has in the later stages of the game that have little to do with early game shenanigans. It would just make a form of harrassment for Zerg harder. I wonder if the FFE will return though? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Seriously though, it's like i said a number of times. It doesn't matter what the community talks about or wants, David Kim is going to do what he wants regardless. There is a complete disconnect between the player base and the devs and this is the reason SC2 is struggling. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On April 09 2016 06:11 Shuffleblade wrote: Please stop with this stupid Banshee shit, why turn the game back to the times when protoss death balls late game were so insane you had to kill P early or die. If you keep nerfing terran (especially the only strong core they have atm) while buffing stuff that is utterly useless in direct engagements you turn the game into an imbalanced mess. Are you trying to make it so that the only way terran can win is harassing from the first minute to the 30th minute and if the enemy pushes the issue bastrade? That sounds like fun for maybe one season. Hell David and co. I really think you've been doing work during lotv overall, this map discussion is very good as well but seriously terran is weaker than the other races straight up. You know it, I know it and everyone else knows buffing harass doesn't address that. You take away one of the only ways zergs can harass and just adds to the tools of terran and keep harking to the delusion that every protoss should play like Rain and that protoss should be bascially immune to early attacks. You guys have been getting so much right, was it pure luck? xD The bold part is exactly what i think they are doing. The "strong" space control units of terran are being kept at a poor level, Siege Tanks, or are getting nerfed, Libs, and the harass options like Medivacs and Banshees are getting buffed. Poor army and strong harass is how i think DK wants Terran to play. It morphed in to a star ship troopers race rather then Starcraft Terran. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On April 11 2016 13:25 Tyrhanius wrote: Overlord drop are not strong at all. Overlord drop : 0.82, 2.62 with speed. Warprism drop : 4.13, 5.36 with upgrade. Medivac drop : 3.5, 5.94 with boost. And it's overlord drop that will be nerfed ! Mutas regenrating rate : 1,4 per seconds, shield regeneration of ALL Protoss units : 2,8 per seconds, just two times more than mutalisk, medivac heal rate : 12.6 per seconds, just 9 times better than mutalisk. But all we hear is "Mutas are OP with super regeneration", while we barely see mutas ouside ZvZ due to the addition to liberator, and +1 range for phoenix. Nyndus worm is just a all-in thing, imagine P/T will drop and Z knows 14s in advance where they will drop, and P/T can't cancel their drop, or drop another location. Will be a Powerful harass tool lol ? The problem of Ovie drops isn't about speed. But because of "creative" maps! When you spawn close by air then queen, the slowest unit in the game, can be dropped in your base. The same queen, that was designed to repel all early game units! Which means that you just move super good defensive unit into the base of your enemy who doesn't have any good units to kill it. Because if the enemy would have such units, then if you are not doing such drops you are fucked as Z. This is the problem with ovie drops. Shut down close by air positions and everything is cool without any nerfing. Then Zerg can do only ling drops, but lings are kinda killable compared to queens. Also all your other claims - you play Zerg, right? Have you missed the amount of patches to Protoss so mutas are not insta win? Imagine removing the range from phoenix with the recent nerfs Protoss received... After the regen added the ONLY counter to mutas are phoenixes. In HotS you could go mass stalkers/sentry(because reasons) and that was a soft counter because Zerg couldn't transition into mutas(they didn't have the gas, their army would be weaker and stalkers are better at base trading), but if you went anything else and you haven't scouted the spire in time you probably just lost the game, because mutas were really strong in PvZ... BTW in WoL you could defend muta play with templars and it actually worked quite well. because no regen storm mattered more. | ||
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