EPTA Change to the Oracle - Page 9
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On March 17 2016 00:52 DevilDriver wrote: I kinde agree with MaNa. The proposed balance change may improve things, but it is not really a solution the phoenix vs phoenix battles overall. I kinda feel like phoenixes could use some changes in general as they seem dominant in every match up. I dont mean that they should be nerved, but rather that the way they are used could be changed slightly, so they become part of a unit composition, instead of being a massable unit. They are used as part of the unit composition and not blindly massed up ever with the exception of a certain stage of pvp (see below). They are not a blindly massable unit, in pvt it is only possible to get out a couple (like up to 6), otherwise you can easily get hardcountered or straight up die for the lack of other units that you need for your gas (templar/tempests). Terran has many hardcounters including marines with their crazy dps, thors, mines and liberators even with splash. The only reason phoenix are so viable as an opening or early on in lotv compared to hots is actually that the adept exists which allows protoss to get a decent unit composition going fast and with much more efficiency while at the same time having to defend much more space early on (3 base at early stages) and deal with things such as early liberators. In pvz phoenix are a lot stronger since hydras do not even come close to the dps of marines and whenever they have a low unit count somewhere you can pick them off. Furthermore they help a lot vs lifting lurker, make you kinda safe early on vs ravager etc and are somewhat a you want to make blindly to prevent muta play. Massing them up however is a terrible idea again since a tech switch (e.g. ultralisks) or certain spells (fungal growth but I am talking specifically about the viper here actually ...) can rape your whole army, nobody can use these units and presplit them perfectly all the time while still using them constantly. In pvp phoenix have never really been used in midgame or later stages of the game. They are too cost inefficient and get hardcountered by archon/feedback and upgrades easily. Phoenix wars exist because the stalker is the only regular anti air ground unit protoss has and very early on the production of protoss is very slow (warpgate tech as well as blink takes quite a while now). They do so little dps to light units (6.9dps vs light, 9.7dps vs armored, compared to for example a marine, stimmed 10dps, unstimmed 6.67dps or hydra 14.4dps) while a phoenix will be able to do 9.6dps vs the stalker on the shields and 7.68dps on his hitpoints. So in terms of cost the phoenix only performs slightly worse than an unupgraded stalker early on in terms of stalker-vs-phoenix, but the phoenix gets all the map control, pick up etc. If it was any different, opening phoenix would be committing suicide in pvp. You switch out of phoenix anyways pretty soon. Phoenix wars (at stated already in this thread) only are there when both opened stargate and the phoenix is kinda the only useful unit you can make now against what the opponent might be doing. Since early on the stalker is such a useless support for your phoenix (if you want to engage, you would need 3 extra stalkers for each phoenix you have less due to phoenix dealing so much anti-light-damage to each other: 19.2dps). So lets say you have 7 phoenix and go to your opponents base, he only has 5 phoenix (because maybe he built an oracle early on, lost something or was supply blocked ...). Now if he only has 3-4 stalkers to support his phoenix you can literally simply fly into his phoenix simply disrespecting the fact that the stalkers are also shooting you (he actually is fighting with more army value) because you will still trade a little bit better. In reality he will position himself over pylons for overcharge as well, so you would never do that with 7 vs 5 phoenix, but this simply shows the value of another phoenix after opening stargate when the opponent is also making phoenix and a stalker. However, if something like stalker anti air dps were to be flattened like discussed in another thread, even making phoenix might be a thing of the past in pvp since stalkers with 14 instead of 10 dmg vs light air would kill you so easily with any kind of push. Maybe this side effect/annoyance in a very specific scenario just has to be dealt with in order to keep it valid (unless the role of the void ray was changed a lot to keep stargate valid outside of proxy-1base allins in pvp). In general the issue I felt the phoenix has in general is that you kinda always need to make a certain amount of the unit, otherwise the unit is next to useless since you need to spend 50e every time to pick something up. This is very different from lets say making a banshee. [/QUOTE] | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
In general the issue I felt the phoenix has in general is that you kinda always need to make a certain amount of the unit, otherwise the unit is next to useless since you need to spend 50e every time to pick something up. They can't attack when they lift either 3 phoenix will kill workers (well, everything) twice as fast as 2, you need four phoenix to kill a queen in 1 lift etc. Most people tend to cut at fairly low numbers (4-7 vs T/Z) because you need a certain amount for them to be useful but too much investment is bad | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Most mech players have been complaining about tempest making mech terrible against protoss. What actually makes mech terrible against protoss is the revelation. Attacking a mech position is all about scouting, to evaluate the defenses. Terrans have scans, that are short, costly until late game. Zergs have changelings, that are a very long controllable scout, unless the opponent is perticularly vigilent. Protoss have the obs, that's costly, but can provide very good information if placed correctly, for an undetermined amount of time. Then there's the revelation. 9 cast range, 6 radius, 50 energy, 60 seconds duration, and reveals cloack. I know it's been in the game for a while, but the fact that it pretty much makes the oracle a way to perma scout the opponent's army WHILE the oracle is already a banshee on steroids... It pretty much isf an insanely upgraded hallucination scout, and very abusive early game TvP or late game in conjunction with tempests. I do agree that protoss need another form of detection than robo, but I don't see how the revelation is still in the game design wise. It's like the tankivac, invisible nydus or blinkprism. It just baffles me. | ||
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SiaBBo
Finland133 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On March 18 2016 08:20 JackONeill wrote: Maybe a little off topic since it appears to be a PvP reflexion, but I don't think the issue with the oracle is his actual firepower/longevity. It's the fact that no matter what, an oracle will always bring a huge reward to protoss unless it's shutdown by phenixes in a perticular matchup (PvP early game). Most mech players have been complaining about tempest making mech terrible against protoss. What actually makes mech terrible against protoss is the revelation. Attacking a mech position is all about scouting, to evaluate the defenses. Terrans have scans, that are short, costly until late game. Zergs have changelings, that are a very long controllable scout, unless the opponent is perticularly vigilent. Protoss have the obs, that's costly, but can provide very good information if placed correctly, for an undetermined amount of time. Then there's the revelation. 9 cast range, 6 radius, 50 energy, 60 seconds duration, and reveals cloack. I know it's been in the game for a while, but the fact that it pretty much makes the oracle a way to perma scout the opponent's army WHILE the oracle is already a banshee on steroids... It pretty much isf an insanely upgraded hallucination scout, and very abusive early game TvP or late game in conjunction with tempests. I do agree that protoss need another form of detection than robo, but I don't see how the revelation is still in the game design wise. It's like the tankivac, invisible nydus or blinkprism. It just baffles me. One possible reason the design team didn't look very hard at Revelation before LotV was released is that in HotS PvZ and PvT, Oracles had a pretty high attrition rate running in to cast it, given the presence of things like Vipers and Viking clouds for dealing with Colossi. With Zerg teching to Vipers a little bit later relative to overall game development and Terrans completely forgoing Vikings in favor of Liberators for any sort of air presence, Oracles get away with casting a lot more Revelations in their lifespan. It's still a pretty expensive investment, though. As for LotV, given the state of PvZ and how essential Revelation is for dealing with Lurker play, it's probably pretty low on the list of things the design and balance teams might want to look at. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
It's really early/mid game where I feel like the oracle is abusive and sort of investment free. 300/300 (with SG) to get a very good harass unit that gives perma scout while being able to somewhat stall pushes with the stasis wards feels like a no brainer though. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
Then there's the revelation. 9 cast range, 6 radius, 50 energy, 60 seconds duration, and reveals cloack. 43 second duration | ||
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2MuchTime
United States1 Post
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:14 Liquid`Snute wrote: nothing wrong about having to kill the sentry first :s I could see some potentially abusive all-ins that contain workers happen here, or an extremely easy defense against a zergling all-in, when you can just surround the sentry with a few probes or wall one in with a few pylons. etc. 11(or 22) seconds is a huge amount in strict timings. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On March 19 2016 11:21 bypLy wrote: its astounding who counts as "pro" these days ... not really. we already have a word for what you're thinking of, it's "korean" | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On March 24 2016 05:28 Empirimancer wrote: Just buff Stalker anti-air damage, imo. It fixes everything. So that they can snipe vipers more easily? Or broodlords? Or medivacs even? So they have to be even less careful about mutalisk transitions and scouting with overlords becomes even more problematic? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 14 2016 02:42 NonY wrote: Any vods or replays of the phoenix vs phoenix games that are luck-based? I've played many of them myself recently despite playing NA -> KR latency which is a real challenge for the micro and I never have felt like the game was decided by luck. I'd like to analyze some of the games that these pros felt came down to luck in order to see if I can find a mistake that changed the result of the game. It comes down to how greedy you are and how lucky you are scouting. For example, if I get first scout and my opponent doesn't, I'll throw down a Stargate before getting my Mothership core. But he will delay his SG until after because he didn't scout me first. So my first Phoenix will come out before his, etc... | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On March 29 2016 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote: There has been nothing about this proposed change in the community feedback updates. Is this being ignored, considered, or did they explain why it was a bad idea... anyone know? remember lotv beta with economy models. it's being ignored, that's it. but kim phan will for sure give another interview saying how much they care about the community any time soon. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
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