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On February 25 2016 10:51 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Whats really important to take into consideration and I hope, but doubt stuchiu did is the balance of the game.
HotS was imbalanced for teh vast majority fo the time.
Early terrans were OP with hellbats. After that toss were broken with blink and awfull maps like heavy rain, yeonsu, deadlus point etc.... And zerg were also insanely favored vs T after the mine nerf, then in the end, terrans were still weaker judjing by premier tournaments finals representation.
That changes a lot, since Maru semi finals in GSL when only 3 terrans were in code S is worth almost a win IMO, where sOs vs herO in IEM final was just a blink festival, and that win is way less impressive since only 1.5 race were playable at that time
In all his former rankings he did take that into account
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On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL
#2 SSL
#3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO
#2 sOs
#3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige.
otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
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Who the fk are the people in the drawing?
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Looking forward to seeing the entire rankings! #15-11 seem fine. Classic was the only one who at first glance felt noticeably too low (Bomber maybe slightly too high), but after contemplation was acceptable. And there's not much importance in my estimation between #9 or 10, versus being #11 or #12. It's only the top five or so that people will generally remember looking back as the greatest of HOTS. Everyone else will just be considered super good. As seen in how we collectively recall Flash and Jaedong being the gods of BW during the golden era. Followed in some order (which isn't of importance) by Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, and Jangbi, all of whom are legends in their own right.
Agree w/ the overwhelming consensus here that the top 3 is some order of: Life, Inno, sOs
Seems pretty clear the 2nd tier right behind is some order of: Maru, Zest
Followed very, very closely by some order of: herO, soO
*The order of Taeja, Rain, Classic, and PartinG in the 3rd tier is mostly irrelevant to me. As I feel they are all very historically noteworthy but decidedly below the aforementioned seven. Polt is extremely memorable, but clearly below this group and would be outside my top ten.
My final HOTS S class tier:
7) soO
6) herO
5) Zest
4) Maru
3) Life
2) sOs
1) Inno
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On February 25 2016 08:42 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote:
People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself. In addition to that many of the players some people would rate ahead of TaeJa had a lot of their success from foreign tournaments themselves. 4 of sOs 5 tournament victories were foreign tournaments and in terms of difficulty the blizzcons weren't much more difficult than DH Bucharest, DH Winter or IEM Shenzhen. herO had 3 out of his 5 tournament wins from foreign tournaments. Even Life has except his 1 GSL victory not much results in korea.
I would not say a blizzcon win, the tournament that everyone craves and practices for, was as difficult as dh or iem; heck, I would even say that blizzcon is as premier or more than a gsl. Gsl and ssl were the elitest tournament in long preparation type whilst blizzcon is the elitest tournamemt in a short prep type
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China6329 Posts
Classic, a multi-time starleague winner and one of the most consistent Protoss of HotS is only #11? Imagine the madness of top 10 then.
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On February 25 2016 11:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL
#2 SSL
#3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO
#2 sOs
#3 Life
but thats just my opnion.......... It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
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On February 25 2016 12:31 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 11:05 Charoisaur wrote:On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL
#2 SSL
#3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO
#2 sOs
#3 Life
but thats just my opnion.......... It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL. Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples because foreigners scrubs can go to blizzcon because of the awfull WCS point system. Remember last Blizzcon?
we had stuff like lilbow when people like stats, TY, soO were not there.
Dont get fool by the prize pool, GSL/SSL is way harder
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On February 25 2016 12:31 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 11:05 Charoisaur wrote:On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL
#2 SSL
#3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO
#2 sOs
#3 Life
but thats just my opnion.......... It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL. Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
Yes, blizzcon should be at the top.
My comparison between taejas and sOs runs was only directed at the people who say TaeJa runs weren't impressive because they were against lesser competition while some of his runs weren't easier then sOs run, so by their logic sOs didn't achieve much either.
Not that I think a Dreamhack victory should count as much as a blizzcon.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 25 2016 13:11 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 12:31 swissman777 wrote:On February 25 2016 11:05 Charoisaur wrote:On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL
#2 SSL
#3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO
#2 sOs
#3 Life
but thats just my opnion.......... It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL. Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples because foreigners scrubs can go to blizzcon because of the awfull WCS point system. Remember last Blizzcon? we had stuff like lilbow when people like stats, TY, soO were not there. Dont get fool by the prize pool, GSL/SSL is way harder
Discounting Blizzcon 2015 purely because of Lilbow is a bit silly. You could argue the same for aLive in 2013, or jjakji in 2014, or even (heresy) Mvp in 2013 if you're going to criticise the competition purely for players' form at that actual tournament.
Blizzcon has never been about finding the best player in the world, nor was it the be-all and end-all of The Top 16 Players in the World. Obviously there's a healthy degree of overlap, but in all 3 years there were certainly players who missed out who I'd rank higher than ones who got in.
Having said that, it's still a pretty fucking stacked tournament. Yes, there's no preparation work, aside from Ro.16 / Ro.8 I guess, but go find me a GSL or SSL where the Ro.16 consists only of the top 16 in the world. It just doesn't happen, ever, whether due to seeding or upsets.
It's the same weekender / starleague argument that gets brought up when TaeJa inevitably (and deservedly) places highly in these rankings. They're different disciplines, and to demand that players excel in both formats essentially asks them to be Mvp or Life. Not matching up to that level is hardly the biggest criticism of a player.
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In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo:
1. Blizzcon
2. GSL/SSL
3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter
4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup
5. Normal IEMs and DHs
6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB
7. Small online cups
8. WCS Premier
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 25 2016 13:35 Charoisaur wrote:
In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo:
1. Blizzcon
2. GSL/SSL
3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter
4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup
5. Normal IEMs and DHs
6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB
7. Small online cups
8. WCS Premier
So you'd take some online cup over WCS NA / EU in 2013/14?
:/
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Shouldn't it be "The sons of YellOw"? Or "The brothers of soO"?
I don't know I just don't feel it right with "The sons of soO".
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On February 25 2016 13:37 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2016 13:35 Charoisaur wrote:
In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo:
1. Blizzcon
2. GSL/SSL
3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter
4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup
5. Normal IEMs and DHs
6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB
7. Small online cups
8. WCS Premier So you'd take some online cup over WCS NA / EU in 2013/14? :/
No, I meant just WCS Premier 2015.
Totally forgot about WCS NA/EU I think I'd rate those at the same level as IEM/DH (normal ones)
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Lol, whoever put Maru infront of Innovation should be jailed
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you know bomber didnt get top 4 at IEM San Jose??? it was TLO who beat him in order to advanc to the semis, only to get shrekt by hero...
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On February 25 2016 16:40 machokj wrote:
Lol, whoever put Maru infront of Innovation should be jailed
Oh, is that what life did? Wrote a wrong top list?
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oh, and why the f*** is Classic only 11th?? 2 Korean titles, 2 semis at blizzcon, overall very solid toss. I dare you if Rain is ahead of him with his single GSL title. I think the Classic anti-hype is really undeserved 
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but one also have to give credit to the writer. So far its really enjoyable to read 
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On February 25 2016 17:01 Dungeontay wrote:oh, and why the f*** is Classic only 11th?? 2 Korean titles, 2 semis at blizzcon, overall very solid toss. I dare you if Rain is ahead of him with his single GSL title. I think the Classic anti-hype is really undeserved
I guess it's because he's never really stood out as the clear best Protoss in the world, as Zest/Rain etc have. He has been really good for quite some time now, but I've never thought of him as unbeatable at any point.
Will be interested to see who is ranked above him though.
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EPT
