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Legacy of the Week: Cyclone
December 3rd, 2015 02:34 GMT
The CycloneWelcome back to another week of the focus topic! This week will be discussing the cyclone, another highly controversial unit. Even since day 1 of the beta, this unit has been under heavy scrutiny with it being the central topic of many balance conversations about Terran. Initially the cyclone did massive amounts of damage against armored units, and had a high lock on range which gave it almost endless micro capabilities. This was later toned down to what we see now. - Costs 150/150
- 32 second build time
- 3 supply cost
- 120 HP
- Ground damage: 18
- Speed: 4.72
The cyclone has underwent many changes since its initial release in beta, but the core idea of the unit remains. One can be built at a time with a tech lab on a factory. It’s main purpose is the Lock On ability, which locks onto a target and deals out 400 damage over 14 seconds. Once locked on, its range increases to 12 and the cyclone continues to fire at the target until it moves out of this range. There is an upgrade for the cyclone, called Mag-Field Accelerator, which ups its damage against armored units by 400, which is immediately available at the tech lab and has a research time of 79 seconds and a cost of 100/100. It also received a health point reduction from it’s release, now down to 120. - The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
- How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
- Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
- Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
- The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
- Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
- In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
- Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
- Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
- If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
Leave your twitter handle in your response, and we’ll be tweeting out some answers on @TeamLiquidNet!
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1) Not entirely useless, just mostly useless.
2) TvZ: Never. TvT/TvP you make one early game to shoot down pesky flyers like warp prisms, banshees, medivacs and oracles. They do ok, I suppose.
3) don't play much mech. I have seen some streamers tinker with them in mech compositions but I cannot attest to their viability or their thoughts
4) Anti-air. Getting close enough for a lock on against any concentration of ground units results in your cyclone's death, but it can handle a single air unit.
5) Hmm, whatever? Phoenixes can move and shoot and have high mobility and they function fine
6) Not really, but if it were buffed it very well might. If it became too strong against ground targets then it might overlap too much with the tank, and if it's anti air were to strong it would overlap too much with the viking or Thor. Fortunately it's a mostly rubbish unit so it just overlaps with mediocrity.
7) I think it's just overall pish.
8) early game.
9) Two principle issues with Lock On as it is now. Firstly it simply does not deal the damage fast enough. The target can frequently escape unless it is a lone unit. The Cyclone is only good in a simple 1v1 situation which makes it extremely good at defending against oracles, banshees, medivacs et al. arguably too good. Secondly, in a situation which is not 1v1, the cyclone will probably get killed just trying to achieve the lock on.
10) I'm an advocate of scrapping the bloody thing and starting over, but if we're forced to keep it....
Make Lock On shorter ranged and with a much shorter cooldown, possibly none. Increase the cyclones hp to 170-200. Decrease Lock On's time to roughly 5 seconds, still dealing solid damage (200 or so?). For the Cyclone to work, whatever it locks on has to be basically fucked, but with enough delay between spotting the cylcone and the lock on occuring so the opponent can back away. The Cyclone needs more hp to survive achieving the lock on in the first place too.
I still think even then that the Cyclone is fundamentally flawed, even wrote a piece about it!
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
The unit is bad. It has some utility early and maybe there are roles for it in the lategame if the game is really slow and you need something that is universal and can kill things for free, but I don't really thing that then you would choose cyclones over something else.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
Against Terran it has some utility to deal with early air units, for example banshees, liberators or medivacs.
Against Protoss basically the same against prisms and oracles and it provides a tiny bit of mapcontrol early against stalkers and adepts.
Against Zerg I don't know why one would build the Cyclone. It's easily dealt with early and late in the game without deviating a lot.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
No, not at all. The unit might not even exist and it wouldn't matter at all for Mech. It helps Terran opening with a fast Starport vs Terran and Protoss, that's about it.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
It's only role at the moment is against air units, so that one.
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
No. It's the reason why the unit is weak. It can theoretically kill many, many different units while taking minimal damage. This has been balanced out through nerfs to damage, health and range and now the unit is pretty useless, when before it was way overpowered once you got a lot of them.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
I don't think it overlaps, I think the unit as it is now is redundant and would need some fundamental changes to become a fun and balanced unit.
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
The unit would need to get some inherent flaws if it should be stronger. Cut the air-attack completely, make it much cheaper and let it be an active Mech assault unit.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Early. In the lategame it just isn't very costefficient and when you kite it you expose the rest of your army, unless you have only cyclones. (which was the pre-nerf strategy that thankfully got patched)
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
It should be changed. Having an enemy unit capable of kiting your units forever is very frustrating. (unless the unit is just superweak)
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
Cut the lock-on, remove the anti-air, slightly increase the speed of the unit, the damage by around 25-50% and make the cyclone cost 150/75. Players could use the cyclone in combination with hellions for a more well-rounded attack and harassment force. Current Mech strategies have quite lackluster harass once the opponent has non-light defenders on the field like queens, roaches, stalkers or static defenses.
I know a lot of people are going to write something about antiair here, but I beg them to actually give stats that can actually work out. A ground to air antiair unit that can take on Broodlords with their 11 range and broodlings, as well as not be worthless against something like a mutalisk switch sounds like something that would just plainly eliminate air-play from vs Terran (similar arguments for other matchups).
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
Too weak for its cost, just not efficient and has no clear role that it can fill properly.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
In TvT and TvP it sometimes can be good to get 1 early one to defend harass, in TvZ I sometimes see and play mech with a lot of cyclones, but again I found they are not efficient.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
If it was better then it would, it should full the role of a reliable anti air unit from the factory, plus the mobility is necessary for mech in lotv since you need to defend more bases.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Currently it is defending flying harass, otherwise more used against ground like ultras in mech compositions since it cannot deal with broodlords and carriers.
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
I would prefer if it could actually fight units head-on without running away, if you have other army units beside cyclones you cant just give up the rest and kite the cyclones away. There is too little synergy with other units. Again the high mobility is needed in lotv.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
The problem is that the cyclone is ok-ish in many situations, but there is nothing that it does really well. In every situation there is another unit that would do the same for less money and more reliable (viking, liberator, bio etc.).
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
It is too expensive and inefficient and as I said does not synergize well with other units, so we only see 1 or 2 max.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Currently in the early game.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Should be changed. It is not reliable. The AI is stupid and locks onto lings and broodlings. Once locked ontot the wrong unit it will be useless until the cooldown is over.
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
Lower cost, lower supply. Or increase HP. Or both. Make the AI not lock onto useless units, prioritize units like ultras and broods, make multiple cyclones lock onto the same target to kill it faster. Make it less good in one area but really good in another area. For example make it bad vs ground but really efficient vs air units so mech finally has a reliable and efficient anti air unit from the factory that can deal with broodlord/viper and carrier/tempest.
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
I think it is in a relatively weak but also unexplored state. In TvP there is unexplored potential of the unit for sure. I am very convinced that this resides within the early-midgame with timings, bio/cyclone or cyclone/mine or with cheese.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
For TvT I think it mostly chases earlygame air units.
For TvZ I could imagine some utility versus ultras if mech is being played, but it depends entirely on mech viability.
For TvP I see the potential of some specific compositions like mass cyclone mine or include them in bio cyclone timings.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
I do not think it helps with mech viability per se as that includes the lategame potential of playing mech itself, however I do think the unit helps with a variety of anti-air earlygame units mostly in TvT and PvT. I also think it can have some earlygame amassment potential but with a lot of cyclones but that hardly defines as helping with mech viability.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
If made in less numbers, anti-air unit.
If made in more numbers, anti-ground. It is fine against ground units as long as something else provides vision.
There are moves that counters the lock-on of Cyclones so it is crucial that you actually have enough of them to use the mobility against ground.
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
It reminds us a bit of a mixture between hellion and phoenix and I do kind of like it, yes. The problem however it kind of isolates the units into this single-purposes move-n-shoot concept rather than making it stronger to help with mech viability which might be lacking in LotV. The high mobility and move-n-shoot mechanic disallows it to have either a lot of HP or damage to help with mech viability.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
I think it overlaps a bit with phoenix/hellion as the way it takes map-control and scoots around kind of reminds me exactly of those two units, but it is unique in it´s own merged way between those two units so it is not as bad, but considering the state of mech then maybe it is slightly too overlapping.
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
I think the nerfs where justified, but it is slightly too weak now as far as TvP goes at least. I think the design of the unit promotes en-masse production rather than serving as a compositionary unit that you mix in to deal with other units´ weaknesses. But right now it is hard for me to say that it has taken too many nerfs when the unit could feel a bit lost, just a bit, designwise.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Definitely strongest in the earlygame as it mostly only benefits from "snowballing" itself and/or dealing with earlygame air units.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
I think the description can be a bit confusing and should be revised, but I also think the lockon concept is a bit strange with the very long-term aspect of it, doing high damage over long time. This is another thing that counterpromotes mech viability as the unit only serves true purpose to long-term fights, mostly only when kiting. If the unit had more short-term lock-on damage, perhaps over 4 or 5 seconds, but required counter-micro (such as lifting units or disabling the cyclone) and maybe slightly higher cooldown, similar to a voidray, the unit would be stronger heads-up but also more conservative with the ability usage, thus weaker in harassment/kiting.
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
I think for starters it would be nice to see if we can improve on the current design of the Cyclone, with the lock-on. I would reduce the duration of the lock-on ability significantly, perhaps 150(+50 with upgrade) damage over 5 seconds to a target unit, with +/- 30 seconds cooldown, and then slightly buff the standard attack if necessary. This way the unit still is interesting with the kiting/chasing move-n-shoot mechanic, but also does more damage in short-term fights to help with mech viability.
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Cyclones are in a good spot in balance as far as I can see right now. They see most use early game in TvT and TvP, sniping banshees, warp prisms, and oracles. I like where the cyclone is with TvP mech depending on how the Protoss seeks to defeat it or what unit composition they're currently on.
I wouldn't mind a better all-purpose upgrade for lategame similar to the one the liberator received.
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
Its very underwhelming. Expensive, slow to produce and it isn't really good at anything.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
A single cyclone opening in TvT is good. It defends against banshees very well.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
It doesn't in any match up. Broodwar mech had a powerful anti ground unit, a good anti air unit and a good support/harass unit. The cyclone tries to be all of those things and fails at every one.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Its good against banshees and oracles so very limited anti air.
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
I like that its fast. I don't like that it can move and shoot. I don't find the muta phoenix interaction very interesting and this is much the same only without focus firing.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
Yes it does. Its design is too all around good. Its fast, long range, hits both ground and air. It will either be too good at everything or too bad at everything.
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
Its design is too all around. As is only a single cyclone is produced. With a buff we'll probably see them massed again.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Early game. This makes Blizzard role for them as an ultra counter a complete failure.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
I think it should be changed. It does not scale well at all. In higher numbers you lock on to different units and deal damage but you rarely kill anything.
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
I would make it dedicated anti air.
150/50/2.
Requires tech lab or armory. That is, it requires a tech lab until the construction of an armory where you can produce them from any factory.
I'd keep the 120 hp +1 armor.
2.64 movement speed.
6 range.
12 ground attack.
6 (+4 vs armored) x2 air attack.
Tracking turret but you must stop to shoot.
Upgrade to add +3 air attack range.
hmm...seems a little familiar.
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I like the cyclone. It has a really niche role which is good because terran didn't need a core unit - it already had enough of those. I loved the way micro intensive players like TY used them in EVERY matchup during the dreamhack tournament. I believe top KR server is seeing more cyclone usage than NA or EU and I'm excited to see how players in proleague (ie. players who have time and are good enough to micro individual units often) will use them.
Tldr: It's too early to see how they will do in the terran mech comp meta so we will have to be patient and see what happens.
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
I think the cyclone is reasonably well tuned, but it's hard to use compared to new tools the other races got.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
TvT and TvP: They're nice for defending early drops or early attacks from air units, and they're decent at controlling watchtowers. It's hard to mass them.
TvZ: Cyclones with the upgrade are actually pretty good against ultras. If I'm producing tanks out of a couple factories, I sometimes start cyclone production when I see the Ultra transition.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
Not really. They can help defend bases but I wouldn't want to mass them. They're expensive and take away from the tank count.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
They're really an anti-single unit I need to kill quickly. Often times this is an air unit in the early game, but they are good 1v1 against any unit.
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
It's a neat concept but it's difficult to utilize in a big fight.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
No, it's definitely unique. The problem is that it's hard to synergize it with other units.
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
It maybe needs a slight buff but it otherwise feels balanced. It's the new units from the other races that need some nerfing.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Early game. Cyclone prefers smaller armies.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Lockon feels okay, but it should maybe deal the damage a little faster. (A warp prism has ample time to enter and warp in a bunch of units before it dies).
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
It doesn't feel like a true terran mech unit. It's nice to have a factory unit that's anti air again (ignoring the thor). I would make it function like a goliath. Maybe have lockon for air units only and more powerful, but remove moving shot, and give it slightly more health. It'd be much easier to defend early pressure and use with a mech army.
@siege368 on twitter
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
It sucks, not much to say, too expensive and fragile and not very good at anything in particular
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
Is an anti-harass reaper, much like ravens, they are units you make 1 to survive early game before transitioning to bio. Then they become useless
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
No, the cyclone does nothing for mech
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Is an early game reaper, but I guess is better vs air
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
Yes
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
I think it overlaps with the tank because both have the role of sucking at everything
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
Not sure, they seem to have no idea what to do with it, so saying it was too nerfed would that at some point it was a good unit
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Nobody makes them past the early game, that says a lot
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
I hate lock on, they should have an auto attack, lock on is plain stupid
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
Decrease its cost (150/75/2), lower its damage, personally no lock on, just 2 auto attacks (vs Ground and vs Air), vs ground an ok damage with 6 or maybe 7 range vs air more damage and 9 range. Both with bonus vs armored.
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1) The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
I think it has been designed as an all round unit good at everything and this will make it either mediocre in most situations or OP and borring.
-TvT good for early game defense
-TvP good for early game defense
-TvZ useless; maybe some use against Ultras
2) Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
It helps to secure a relatively safe early game, so i guess a little. The main problem with mech is how poor the Tank is.
3) Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
It's strange because it's both and neither. It can be good against low numbers or ground units and also against isolated flying units. So good against everything in the early game and poor against everything later on.
4) The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
Yes. But, i can't see any synergy with the mech army. Running and shooting is fine in isolated cases, but in a head on fight you can't run and leave the Tank Hellbat army to die.
5) Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
Since it is almost useless, no  If it would get buffed and the general design remained the same, it would overlap with the Tank as a core unit; a Warhound 2.0 if you will.
6) In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
I think it's good that it can't be massed as a Factory Marauder, but it should have been given a more dedicated role to compensate.
7) Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Early game.
8) Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Right now the unit doesn't have a clear role so it's difficult to say. Sometimes it feels good, other times it feel gimmicky and easily exploitable.
9) If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
Give it a primary anti air role, mainly anti armored air. So 2 supply, 150-160 HP, 150m 75g, mediocre anti ground, good single target anti air with good range(lock on). For extra versatility, keep it's good speed and allow the lock on to be used against buildings to raid expansions.
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
Well it's better than when it was previously, as in completely OP, but it still needs a lot of work.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
TvT and TvP: As has been said by others, they're good at defending against early drops or early attacks from air units, and they're decent at early map control.
TvZ: Never seen them.
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
Not at all. The reason is simple: They require to run away from the enemy units to be effective while the rest of mech is designed to be sturdy and stay put. So they don't mix well at all with hellbats, thors or tanks.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Anti-air because those units are usually worse at returning damage than ground units 
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
Nope. As i mentioned, it doesn't fit with the rest of the factory units. Also it makes it really hard to balance such a unit. Phoenix is ok because their moving shot is only anti air and only good against light units.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
Nah I don't think so. Maybe a bit with the viking?
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
Probably. But considering how much I dislike the unit, I would rather it stay a rarely used unit tbh. If it has to be good, please use another model and don't give it moving shot.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Early game. It's good in low number fights.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Lockon is okay. The problem is combining lockon with shooting while moving.
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
I would change the model to a goliath or something similar to a goliath with another name. It could even keep the lock-on as a lategame upgrade that would be good to have against stuff like Carriers or Broodlords.
The main attack would be a decent anti air missile with a bonus vs mechanical (Mutas already have too many hard counters in the terran army), this bonus should NOT be against armored because then it would overlap with the viking. Range somewhere around 7-8. The ground damage would probably be similar to the viking, except a little better (this thing doesn't fly) or with a small bonus against bio or light. Range 5-6. The moving shot would no longer be a thing of course.
The cost would be somewhere between 150/75 and 125/50, 2 supply, no tech lab required. Armored and 150HP.
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Cyclone suffers from same problems that raven does:
- overpriced
- only good early game
- no point to build more than one
And what's worse its design tries to apply the same kiting attack to air and ground resulting in little room between useless and overpowered.
Just like with raven this is pretty much normal for a unit meant to support a mech style - with mech dead it no longer serves any useful purpose. The only way to salvage the cyclone is to convert it into something that bio terran could use.
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Here we go again! @electronicmo on Twitter:
The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
I think the Cyclone is balanced, but I don't think balance is the real issue with this unit right now.
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
I see the Cyclone as an anti-cheese unit... basically. Its ability is pretty good when you're microing hard and against a few units (early game units tend to have shorter range too, making Cyclones stronger against them). It's good against units like Banshees and Warp Prisms that can be annoying to kill early on. After the early game there's just no real use for the unit. Everything it does is done better by another Terran unit. DPS = bio, Range = Tanks, AA = Liberators, Vikings, or just more bio..
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
I think it does, because it helps the meching player hold early aggression better. That was always hard for them because they were relying on immobile units (Tanks/Bunkers) and that immobility could be abused. However, this is negated by the LotV economy, which forces players to expand more aggressively and makes gas units harder to obtain relative to mineral units. This is the biggest deterrent to mech play IMO.
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
It does both fine. I end up using it more against early game air targets (Warp Prism, Banshee)
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
I like the unit in principle. It's a cool unit and the ability is fun.
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
The economy changes, combined with the existing strength of bio make it really hard to find a place for this unit. Something else is always better. The only time I build them or see them built is in the early game. 1-2 from the factory while the Terran is getting his infrastructure up to help defend his base. Offensively their role overlaps with pretty much every other Terran unit.
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
Well, in the beginning of the beta it was clear they were OP as hell. Whenever you see just one unit being made in every situation you know there's something wrong. We see it now with Ravagers.. and we saw it with Warhounds. The issue is not the Cyclone itself. The Cyclone is a good unit but IMO Terran has a better player in every position, if you will.
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
I think the Cyclone is really good in the early game and drops off after.
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
It's good, but perhaps multiple cyclones should lock on to the same target to kill it faster rather than each Cyclone locking on to a different unit. That might make it a little bit to easy to use though. Who knows. I think it's fine honestly...
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
It's tough to say. The unit is balanced and really versatile early on. Maybe it's just the Cyclone's fate to be an early game unit. Not every unit can be used all the time and the decision to make any particular unit needs to be something a player consciously makes.
TLDR: I think the Cyclone is good against cheese but later on other Terran units are better at everything it does. Unlike what everyone seems to be saying Terran actually has a lot of really good AA: Liberators, Vikings, Thors, Marines... If you want to make mech viable, the economy is more of an issue than the units.
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On December 03 2015 12:51 Avocadi wrote:
I like the cyclone. It has a really niche role which is good because terran didn't need a core unit - it already had enough of those. I loved the way micro intensive players like TY used them in EVERY matchup during the dreamhack tournament. I believe top KR server is seeing more cyclone usage than NA or EU and I'm excited to see how players in proleague (ie. players who have time and are good enough to micro individual units often) will use them.
Tldr: It's too early to see how they will do in the terran mech comp meta so we will have to be patient and see what happens.
I disagree. Terran could certainly use more core mech units. There is nothing from the factory that is reliable for anti-air. The Cyclone's poor design means that it's nothing more than a moving auto turret.
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On December 04 2015 05:25 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 12:51 Avocadi wrote:
I like the cyclone. It has a really niche role which is good because terran didn't need a core unit - it already had enough of those. I loved the way micro intensive players like TY used them in EVERY matchup during the dreamhack tournament. I believe top KR server is seeing more cyclone usage than NA or EU and I'm excited to see how players in proleague (ie. players who have time and are good enough to micro individual units often) will use them.
Tldr: It's too early to see how they will do in the terran mech comp meta so we will have to be patient and see what happens. I disagree. Terran could certainly use more core mech units. There is nothing from the factory that is reliable for anti-air. The Cyclone's poor design means that it's nothing more than a moving auto turret.
Thors shoot up. Vikings are anti air. Liberators are anti air.
I'm sorry but the old "I only want to make factory units" thing is boring.
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On December 03 2015 12:51 Avocadi wrote:
I like the cyclone. It has a really niche role which is good because terran didn't need a core unit - it already had enough of those. I loved the way micro intensive players like TY used them in EVERY matchup during the dreamhack tournament. I believe top KR server is seeing more cyclone usage than NA or EU and I'm excited to see how players in proleague (ie. players who have time and are good enough to micro individual units often) will use them.
Tldr: It's too early to see how they will do in the terran mech comp meta so we will have to be patient and see what happens.
Its the opposite, terrans core units are just MMM, nowadays also libs (altough they are starting to become a mostly TvP unit), and before WM in TvZ and tanks in TvT. Thors and the TvP units (ghosts and vikings) where not as core as the rest of units (as in you could or not make them in the game).
Other than that, terran is filled with niche units, hellions you make 6, reapers you make 1 or 2, ravens you make 1, banshees you make 2, BC you don't make them. Also you get 1 or 2 tanks in TvZ to stop roach pushes, or get 1 viking to hunt overlords, in TvP you can do WM drops and TvT you can also make some hellions.
But those are all pretty niche, if terran has any core units as core as they get, they are just the MMM.
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The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
Very "meh" unit, hard to work vs anything (but capital ships maybe)
How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
Only lategame when dismantling deathballs of units by trying to snipe key units - still very hard to make it and it's probably that other units would be better to use for that purpose I think
Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
Hardly, maybe in PvP, but not sure about it
Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Anti-Air for probably, not really good for ground units cause often they're in jeopardy to deal the damage
The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
Yes, but don't like the damage upgrade, the unit should get either more HP or more movement instead (ofc. feels like it's intended for capital ships but don't like it - too restrictive)
Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
No they don't but they should IMO.. Right now the Cyclone is supposed to be the "mech marine" but it fails cause it's too costly and requires techlab to be produced as is
In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
IDK, haven't played Beta but yes I remember them being quite the ridic. , don't change the unit, but reduce it's cost, gas especially = make it 100 gas instead of 150 and make it non-techlab unit
Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Never really works so far what I've played with, played some TvTs seem usable niche to have combined with Reapers as a followup on the opener but not really, it's the Reapers that do the dirty work Cyclones are like a Hellion 2.0 with a bit more responsiveness at control but less sustain i.e. they have quite a bit of CD to play with
Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Nope - it's too much treated as an ability but it isn't, it's the AA of the unit
Just reduce the CD of it so you could with a very basic micro re-attach a new target, perhaps reduce the starting damage of the first 2-3 seconds but better deal some reduced amount of damage than have the most awkward CD of what seems to be another way of autoattacking, doesn't feel like an ability
If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
4 changes (most of them were said already)
#1 - Reduce it's cost and make it non-techlab unit
#2 - Reduce gas cost - it's like a T2/T2.5 unit with an overall cost of T3
#3 - Increase it's build time to 40 sec (or 38 at least), since it's now not a techlab unit can be produced at a more steadier rate
#4 - this is the actual change to the unit - instead of CD of 4 sec (or 5 was it) to lock on a new unit - make it so that it starts the attack much sooner (almost immediately - maybe 1 or 1.5 seconds - something more reasonable) BUT - have them have that "wind-up time" to their maximum damage (like WoL voidrays used to be)
Reasoning being - the lock-on ability doesn't feel like an ability at all, it's more like a weird secondary type of auto-attacking so don't treat it as an ability, it's not a Corosive bile - the Cyclone literally doesn't have anything else but the ability
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This is easily the worst unit to come out of the Beta, seems like the dev team was desperate (for some reason) to add another unit to the most complete race in the game. Here we go
1. The cyclone has been everywhere with balance changes. What do you think of its current balance?
Current balance sucks, nothing more to say, it's been beaten with the nerf bat because it's fundamentally flawed.
2. How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup?
In TvP to defend Oracles, don't watch TvT, it's not viable in the slightest vs. Zerg.
3. Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups?
Not even close, Liberators do way more for mech, first and biggest problem with mech is the tank sucks, second is lack of mobile anti air which these things suck at.
4. Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit?
Only anti air, the anti ground thing is laughable and the main ground killer for mech is the tank.
5. The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this?
Hell no, not one bit, the move and shoot thing is dumb and is the primary reason besides the ridiculous lock on ability (which has been summarily nerfed into the ground) that the unit has been beat to death by nerf.
6. Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why?
Wouldn't say it "overlaps" with the Thor but the Thor and Liberator stupidly out class it in terms of anti air.
7. In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs?
It was produced in mass because it was broken, it has been hit too hard by nerfs but that's because the crappy design of the unit lends itself to the dreaded "Op as hell or useless as hell" problem.
8. Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game?
Don't know, I main Zerg where it's never built and in the other match ups I only see it made (like, one singular Cyclone) in the early game.
9. Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed?
Garbage ability, remove it from the game, as long as this and the move and shoot thing exists this unit will always be terrible or it will be OP.
10. If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why?
In a perfect world it would just be removed, replaced by the Goliath and then balanced accordingly, since I know the team has no stomach for that I would remove ground attack almost entirely or just give it a weak Goliath type ground attack, remove the lock on thing, and put a very small amount of splash on the anti air to give mech breathing room vs. Mutalisk flocks and Carriers. Numbers can be left to the smart people, it should just be designed to fill an actual hole that mech has which is mobile anti air.
tldr
This unit is terrible and has been terrible since it's release into the beta, if the team won't make it the actual Goliath just make it a functional knock off like the Disruptor/Reaver thing.
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Can't thank you folks enough, all the ideas floating around in the above inspired a rewrite of the Liqupedia article, thanks I was having a tough time coming up with ideas for wtf this unit was specifically for. Here is hoping the unit page can inspire some experimentation for the players out there to give some more solid examples of this unit dealing carnage.
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EPT
