EPTOr reduce its cost and damage.
Legacy of the Week: Cyclone - Page 2
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Paulfirelordmu
10 Posts
Or reduce its cost and damage. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States723 Posts
As protoss fighting it, I find that they are fun to micro against at ramps, and they do produce the ability for a skilled terran to keep me stuck in my base unless I build sentries to trap em. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
As protoss fighting it, I find that they are fun to micro against at ramps, and they do produce the ability for a skilled terran to keep me stuck in my base unless I build sentries to trap em. In extemely limitted situations yes. When you know you don't need to use it to defend vs air or Adapt drops to start with. And then you have a short window until the protoss has blink. They are really expensive units which simply die the moment the toss blinks forward. Also without blink it is really hard to get a lock without dying to immortals for example (well it is reasonably well doable, but then you quickly lose your lock when it simply runs back. So you go in again, but now with lower health and it dies). | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
In the early game, it's still hilariously OP vs Protoss (but for a very brief window that's hard for Terran to identify except for the replay), but shortly after that it becomes almost worthless. How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup? In TvP, I build 1-2 of them early game and they make the LotV 1-1-1 push extremely hard to not only stop, but even to see coming. They grant almost complete map control early vs most Protoss openings - especially ones where Protoss looks to get out on the map with a zealot/stalker or pair of adepts. Once each player has a certain amount of army supply though, they become far less useful - although I've had some success with using them vs disruptors - tagging them and running my bio away. Very micro intensive though, which makes them pretty hard to use with bio (but one tends to have the factory floating around anyway). With mech most of their roles are dealt with better by more specialist units, I don't play much Mech v P though. In TvZ I haven't been able to find much of a use for them, in TvT they are great for helping to defend vs drops and banshees. Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups? Like I said, not at all for me, outside of 1-1-1 pushes (which still make Protoss cry, I'm pleased to report  ). That said though, getting one out relatively early should virtually guarantee Toss stays in their base allowing a meching player to get up to three bases very early. This is pure theorycraft from me though.In TvZ everything the Cyclone does well is done better by other units or is not required in the matchup. In TvT it can help to secure one's position, but it's not a big help and Vikings are better at it. Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit? In TvP, more of an anti-ground early game, then anti-air later. In TvZ and TvT almost purely anti-air. The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this? Love the movement speed, hate the move and shoot (super not fun for either player) and *LOATHE* the lock-on. Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why? Not really overlap, it's just (outside of early TvP) useful enough at anything to build. Vikings are better at stopping banshees and are useful in army fights too, for example. In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs? They remain a terribly designed unit. Without lock-on they are far too weak, with it they are terrible and can't possibly be buffed to be a more generally useful unit. Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game? Maybe if you have ludicrous mechanics it's different, but for me it's only really a good unit in early game. Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed? Lock On is, by a very, *VERY* long way the worst ability that's ever been in a Starcraft game. Horrible to play against, fiddly and un-fun to use. It's either OP or worthless. Removing this or changing it radically would open up the possibility that this unit could become a Terran staple. If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why? Make lock-on anti-air only and weaker (but maybe slightly longer range). Give it separate ground and air-attacks - weaker ground attack, similar air-attack (maybe even a slight buff there). Then change the cost (150/75/2?) and it would suddenly be a pretty great mech support unit whilst retaining the anti-air patrol role it currently occupies if you happen to have built one by accident. Removing or changing lock-on is the critical thing, IMO, then we can look at making the unit useful . | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1470 Posts
very underwhelming but has its uses. How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup? I think it was supposed to be primary anti air unit that provides a way to attack out of the slow push to force engagements in combination to slow push. Unit is too expensive to do this Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups? No, liberator did more but overall, mech isn't in very good place. At beginning of beta when it was powerful and tanky, yea, but now? Meh. Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit? Anti-air + skirmish unit combined into one more like The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this? way too fragile right now. No real point having this when it costs 150/150 3 supply. It should have less mobility and more health. Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why? It has its roles but doesn't do its job well so no. In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs? They overnerfed it I feel. Nerfing it that much without even changing its cost or supply was... very bad. Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game? early game definitely. This unit shines in low unit number coutns then its effectiveness goes down sharply. Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed? I did a big write up on LotV forums about this and how lockon by its inherent nature makes this unit slosh too much to either side on balance. Moving attack would be way better than this solution. If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why? Make it moderately tanky anti-air unit that could be produced quickly with moving shot and good AA range+Short AG range. | ||
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Lemartes
Austria57 Posts
Blizzard definitely didn´t have the current Unit in mind when designing the cyclone. Massing it was terrible, now it´s kinda inbetween and I see why people hate it, but I love the niche role it got! How do you see cyclones being played in each matchup? As everybody already said: Not at all against Zerg, which is fine with me. TvP/TvT for early game defense against lone flyers/dropships Do you think the Cyclone helps with mech viability and in what matchups? No! Its funny is´nt it? Blizzard gives us widow mines, hellbats, cyclones, liberators - and what did it do for mech? When it´s viable its ugly to watch, because it´s never the real mech we want. Mass cyclones for instances is not mech. So some of the units they designed specifically for making mech better turned out good in a totally different way, others not, the cyclone is kinda inbetween, but not for meching... Gotta buff the tank! Do you feel the Cyclone is more of an anti-ground or anti-air unit? Anti-air. But still it´s just early game and thats it. technically it´s only great at 1v1 so there it probably wins against any unit. The Cyclone is able to move and shoot and has a high mobility, do you like this? As long as it´s not massable and a core unit, yes. Do you think the Cyclone overlaps too much with other units, if yes, why? If you tell me the Cyclone should be an anti armor core unit for meching terrans then yes, that´s a role I´d rather see filled with other units. But it´s the only thing that kills warp prims early game, so I see no overlap there! In the beginning of the beta, we often saw Cyclones being produced en masse. Do you think it has taken too big of a hit in nerfs? Maybe yes, but still this unit in any other form would suck. It´s only fun when it´s this specialised defense unit against certain strats. I don´t wanna mass that thing, better patch it out! Is the Cyclone strongest in the early game or the late game? Early Is Lock On in a good state, or should it be changed? It´s fine for the only thing it can do right now (killing warp prisms/flyers). So I would´nt change it around. This unit as anything else would be really bad I think. If you could improve the design and/or balance of the Cyclone, what would you do and why? I would not because again, I don´t wanna see this unit around after the 5 minute mark. Don´t get me wrong though, if this would not be the only unit that´s THIS useless later on, I would love the concept. So maybe give us (all races) more of this? I´m fine with the design choice (although I don´t think they ever intended this). | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Marauder Cost: 100:25 2 supply Marauder HP: 125 Besides the cyclone receiving too many nerfs like range of lock on, etc... It's stats are absolutely horrendous straight up *drops the mic* The best way i can describe the cyclone is it's the mech reaper - you build 1-2 at the start of the game and then should never, ever build them again if you want to win. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 07 2015 11:57 avilo wrote: Cyclone Cost: 150:150 3 supply Cylone HP: 120 Marauder Cost: 100:25 2 supply Marauder HP: 125 Besides the cyclone receiving too many nerfs like range of lock on, etc... It's stats are absolutely horrendous straight up *drops the mic* The best way i can describe the cyclone is it's the mech reaper - you build 1-2 at the start of the game and then should never, ever build them again if you want to win. I actually agree with you on this point that they're the "mech reaper." 1-2 are really good early for holding allins and defending. But after that you shouldn't build them. That said, I don't think you NEED to build them after that. What is missing from the Terran arsenal that they need to fill with the Cyclone? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1470 Posts
On December 07 2015 12:03 DinoMight wrote: I actually agree with you on this point that they're the "mech reaper." 1-2 are really good early for holding allins and defending. But after that you shouldn't build them. That said, I don't think you NEED to build them after that. What is missing from the Terran arsenal that they need to fill with the Cyclone? People keep repeating this but ground anti air is needed from factory. Thats what is needed. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 07 2015 15:07 jinjin5000 wrote: People keep repeating this but ground anti air is needed from factory. Thats what is needed. Why do you need anti-air from the factory? Why is this a must? This sounds like a whole bunch of Terran moaning and not a lot of ACTUAL need. A reasonable argument would be something like "we need anti air from the factory because we are exposed to XYZ that hits before we can reasonably make anti air from a Starport." "We used to have Goliaths" is not an argument. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 07 2015 15:38 Danglars wrote: Health & Armor or Cost. I'd like to see one of those two buffed in a minor way. Maybe they could cost a little less gas. That would be reasonable. Like 25 less or something. They can't be a mineral dump though. Hellions and Marines are already really good for that. | ||
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LuckyGnomTV
Russian Federation367 Posts
2) The only reason to build is to defend warp prism/bansee or troll lower opponent 3) It has nothing to do with mech right now, yes people still trying mass hellions+cyclone style, but it is very situational 4) No it doesnt help at all 5) It is more anti-air unit, but its kinda viable as anti-ground too. Hes ok in this regard. 6) Yes Im fine with this 7) No, it doesnt overlap with anything due him being useless, but I really hope it will overlap with other unit. Cyclone should overlap thor and fill "goliaph" role to make mech playable. 8) Cyclone was moved down at tech tree and its fine, it was just dumb what we saw and the start of game 9) Its useless everywhere, but its ok at first minutes to defend low count of units. 10) Lock on should be removed, phoenixes doesnt have this, why cyclone does? 11) If cyclone will be the new goliaph it will be great unit. Lock on in current state should be removed and should become "anti air range attack upgrade" like goliaph had. Basically every meching terran in the world wants thor to be removed and cyclone become a new goliaph. Then mech will be fun and playable. I guess cyclone should become slower too in that regard because he wont be harrasing tool anymore and become core unit (tanks, hellions, cyclones). | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
As it is, you have to expand too fast for mech play to work the way that y'all want it to work. Stop blaming anti-air from the factory. The problem against Zerg is Parasitic Bomb / Blinding Cloud / Abduct all on one frickin' unit (Viper kind of OP). The problem vs Protoss is you can't take bases and defend them as fast as you need to because of the economic changes and Adept harass. | ||
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Tresher
Germany404 Posts
On December 04 2015 09:24 Beelzebub1 wrote: This is easily the worst unit to come out of the Beta, seems like the dev team was desperate (for some reason) to add another unit to the most complete race in the game. Stop it. Terran is the NOT the most complete race. I don´t know why everyone and their mother (devs included) thinks that when it´s NOT. Terran in SC2 got castrated from a whole playstyle/strategy. There is nothing complete about a race that has to play one strategy for 5 (!) years or a playstyle that is balanced around one transporter unit that heals . Therefore its not complete because there is no variety. Seriously people, stop saying dumb things that are not true. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Or Delaying early pressure attacks. But i will say they do suck in large engagements and 100% that tech lab upgrade is super neccessary. Is this such a bad thing? I am kinda excited to test out the Thor changeand seeing what comes out of it interms of defending against large air attacks. | ||
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Shapelog
United States5186 Posts
On December 09 2015 20:53 shapelog wrote: New Cyclone 150/150/3 (same cost) Attack: Ground: Grenade Lobbers, 14(+2 vs light)(x2) with a attack speed of maybe .71 (makes it better(ish) at a harass, even thou it's not its main purpose) Air: "Hellish" missiles 20 damage (+5 to light) (x2 maybe) splash with a slower attack speed (0.9 ish) (make it good against big blobs of air and weaker at singular ships to promote T3 ships) Attacks can overlap with other cyclones Remove lock on Add new ability: Energy overload (or something, i'm not good at naming things  )For 4-6 seconds the Cyclone's weapons system becomes overclocked. This causes the cyclone to replace it's ground attack with its air attack and doubling its air attack at the cost of its AOE. It also causes the cyclone to be able to attack 2 Airborne targets at once. However, after the 8 seconds, the Cyclone will become disable. It will not be able to move and has a slower attack damage and speed for 5 seconds. Cooldown: 30-45 seconds (Basically it becomes for 8 secs: Ground: "Hellish" missiles 20 damage (+5 to light) (x2 maybe) splash with .7 attack speed Air: Overclocked missiles 50(+5 to amour) (x2) with .8 attack speed Movement speed same Train time same Tech lab New upgrade on tech lab: Targeting software, 200/100/79 secs. Gives the cyclone 2 more seconds in overclock mode, and allows the cyclone to fight both 2 airborne targets and one ground target simultaneously. I feel like this makes the Cyclone better at anti air while also be capable as a ground fighter. The new ability makes it better at big fights while covering the AA role mech is mixing (libs kinda fill it but still) It is weaker against big ground targets, but then again that was not the role we are trying to fix. Tanks should honestly cover this. FYI I got the idea for the "new" ability off of the Phoenix in WOL Beta so it might some reworking in terms of power. | ||
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