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On December 04 2015 01:59 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 22:02 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 03 2015 16:44 rotta wrote:On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote:
This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time. Indeed, that one map he won. The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened. There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily. MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled. MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%) Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%) I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.
It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career.
This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything.
The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments.
The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games.
As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go.
While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so.
It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010.
And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa.
To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration.
MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole.
Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period.
This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.
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United States10328 Posts
^very agreed. Flash was at a point where you'd be surprised if he lost to anyone.
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On December 05 2015 10:12 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2015 01:59 Caihead wrote:On December 03 2015 22:02 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 03 2015 16:44 rotta wrote:On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote:
This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time. Indeed, that one map he won. The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened. There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily. MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled. MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%) Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%) I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7. It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career. This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything. The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments. The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games. As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go. While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so. It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010. And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa. To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration. MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole. Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period. This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.
Glad to see there are at least a few people still around who "get it". 
Great post.
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Thank you for all the memories, Flash.
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For me it is really interesting to see people recalling memories of Flash in his greatest days in BW. I never followed that and so had just a vague idea that this guy was probably really good in it, but I never knew the specific - and yes they are really impressive.
However that doesn't mean anything with respect to SC2 - and that's where I think BW fans have done Flash a huge disservice, because the constant overrating of him in SC2 that resulted from his old fame was really obnoxious. Surely, he was a pretty high-level Korean, better than 99% of players and virtually any foreigner, but still just only a Ro16 material at most - meaning that he was never really even top10. One singular win in a random foreign event doesn't mean anything and everyone knows that well. Yet there were always so many people who presented him through a pair of pink-coloured glasses, overhyping every win and undervaluing every loss. Sadly it was not just fans, but many casters as well. No other player with so few actual SC2 achievements was ever getting so much attention and that was just not very fair in my opinion.
My first reaction to seeing "Flash retired" on the sidebar was thus rather joyful - finally all of this nonsense stops for good and players who are really good in this game will get slightly more spotlight when they deserve it. Looking back on it, I still think it is not a bad thing, but primarily for Flash himself - the longer he waited, the deeper would his BW fame be drowned in a sea of SC2 mediocrity. And learning more about his BW accomplishments makes me sure that he deserves to have and keep this fame.
Comparing "who is the greatest in SC" between BW and SC2 does not make any sense. People who followed BW should argue who was best in BW (as far as I understand, the answer "Flash" is surely not without contention) and we at SC2 have stuchiu to keep as busy arguing among ourselves. Clearly, those two groups of people have a huge overlap, but I think the discussions should be kept separate, mainly because the player pools are just too separate. While MVP's and Flash's primes almost coincided in time, they never faced the same competition and played in completely different ecosystems. I don't really understand how a comparison should be made. The "Starcraft" title on both games is misleading. Nobody is asking "Who is the best in sports with a ball?", right?
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I wonder why ppl argue about MVP vs. Flash in this thread.
1. MVP succeeded in SC2 while the game was new and everyone was playing quite worse than now. Flash succeeded at the end of BW where the game was at the highest level against opponents that represented the highest level of play of their respective races.
2. Most of MVP's success in Korea was during GomTvT times and its aftermath where terran was just brutally overpowered. Flash dominated an almost perfectly balanced game.
3. The skill ceiling of BW is alot higher than the one of early WOL. WOL metagame was basically about 5 rax reaper, bitbybit scv + x rush or abusing other mechanics that other players might have not understood 100% yet (or were out of balance). Even if MVP didn't abuse it that much, his opponents had to account for the possibility. It was way easier to abuse these things to your advantage and MVP was good at mindgames (general skill was lower so that ppl. e.g. overreacted more etc.). Flash instead put a new level on top of a highly sophisticated metagame where everybody knew all the tricks already. He pushed the limits. He had to utilize the full spectrum of tools of his race, strategy, mechanics and everything else in order to do so. He set new standards in something that was considered almost perfect already.
Lets make one thing clear. These guys are all extremely good and MVP for sure was an exceptional player. But when a game is new, out of balance and whatever else it doesn't even take half as much to be exceptional than in a scenario where flash was in. There is no valid comparison between those two.
Some of the reasons for why stuchios greatest players of all times list was biased btw.
GG Flash!
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I dont care if Flash dont win . I just like to see him play. Every game he play I get excited. Even though sometimes is let down I feel sad, but I always feel the same. I wan to see him play .
He is like my reason I watch SC2 . .I just dont noe who to stick after he retire. . . . .
Maybe ForGG if he go proleague . . but . . . ahh why FLASH retire at beginning of LOTV
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I said this elsewhere and I'll say it again, I'm not even a fan of Flash's BW skills anymore, I'm just a fan of his person. His insane work ethics disciplined by years of forcing oneself to improve, backed by his bank in BW winnings, will enable him to excel in the future at whatever he chooses to do.
GLHF Flash, I hope you posts updates to your life even if you decide to leave progaming, I'm sure tons of people would be interested.
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France12793 Posts
I don't care much about Mvp vs Flash, since nobody dominated hard WoL anyways (so nobody dominated SC2 the way Flash dominated BW) but stop thinking that Mvp only won when "terran was OP" because terran wasn't OP very long at all in WoL, plus most viewers have no clue about what they see and can't judge balance very well.
Plus Mvp was dominant for a long period of time, early WoL is basically 2010 with FruitDealer winning the first GSL, why the fuck are you talking about 5rax reaper or whatever, this build was nerfed so early in WoL it was almost before launch.
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Okay, just have to say this, the only people left I'm looking forward to returning to the fold are Jaedong and Fantasy. The Dong needs to keep the Ultimate Weapon in check, while the Terrorist has to give us the FvF peak TvT that was untimely taken away from everyone.
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Nice!
What is the deal with his drafting though? It says there he was drafted by KTF in 2007, but according to his LP page it was Pantech and he was "traded off to KTF MagicNs shortly after". However, in http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/KeSPA_Rookie_Draft#2007 he was recommended by KTF (Pantech is also listed as FOX, months before the name change).
So... what happened?
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On December 06 2015 00:18 Poopi wrote:
I don't care much about Mvp vs Flash, since nobody dominated hard WoL anyways (so nobody dominated SC2 the way Flash dominated BW) but stop thinking that Mvp only won when "terran was OP" because terran wasn't OP very long at all in WoL, plus most viewers have no clue about what they see and can't judge balance very well.
Plus Mvp was dominant for a long period of time, early WoL is basically 2010 with FruitDealer winning the first GSL, why the fuck are you talking about 5rax reaper or whatever, this build was nerfed so early in WoL it was almost before launch.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/6c/GSLraceW.png)
This is what is considered as GomTvT. 2010, 2011 & 2012. Some things where nerfed earlier and others later but the aftermath lasted still a bit longer as this graph shows. GomTvT 100% covers the period of time when MVP was successful. As I stated, this is only one thing that substracts some from MVP's success, but not the only thing when comparing it to flash' success. 2011, the most successful year of MVP, was the worst year of GomTvT. 2010 was messy & random as everybody was new and 2012 was the aftermath.
5 out of 6 GSL (including blizzcon) finals MVP participated in 2011 were TvT. MVP did undoubtedly benefit from a substantial racial imbalance. I dare to claim in a balanced scenario MVP would have won only 1/3 - 1/2 of the titles he did win in 2011. Noone could ever reasonably state this about flash. Balance is something that matters when comparing two players like Flash and MVP, not the only thing of course. Other factors go for Flash as well tho.
But hey, he of course was an exceptionally great player. Thats not the question.
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Awesome. I'd love to see him do a comeback in 6-7 years. In whatever the top RTS is then. Flash
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Cmon kespa, give us something for this. Rent out a venue and have a bo9 between flash and JD alternating between BW and SC2 or something.
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1v1 Record:
All: 457-180 (71.74%) |
vT: 162-59 (73.30%) |
vZ: 157-61 (72.02%) |
vP: 138-60 (69.70%) |
Ultimate weapon.
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Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.
Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.
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On December 07 2015 21:31 Iksf wrote:
Cmon kespa, give us something for this. Rent out a venue and have a bo9 between flash and JD alternating between BW and SC2 or something.
This would be fantastic, absolutely fantastic if a new RTS comes within that timeline that is a awesome one.
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France12793 Posts
@LSN: race distribution in GSL doesn't represent racial imbalances (small sample size + the fact that it was hard to drop out of code S once you were in and there was enough terrans in it already to stay there for a while) so please stop the random bold claims :x.
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1584 Posts
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EPT
