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Flash Retires - Page 36

Forum Index > SC2 General
713 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 34 35 36 All
Please keep this thread on topic. No useless one liners or insults. No player bashing or game bashing. Violators will be moderated harshly.
jonich0n
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1982 Posts
December 07 2015 20:30 GMT
#701
On December 07 2015 22:44 Quateras wrote:
Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.

Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.

Ah yes, that HSC finals vs Parting. Another nice memory and epic series, even though Flash eventually succumbed in that ever-so-close Game 7 and 3-4 loss.

I see a couple Flash haters coming in here to say "he wasn't that good" and the "hype was annoying" in SC2. Well no shit? If you were never a fan of his in BW, and you don't particularly root for Terran players in SC2 or are a big KT fan, there isn't all that much reason to be a specific fan of his in SC2. But fact is, he won an incredible amount of fans for both his truly incredible BW play and his fierce yet humble character since his rise in [what was it exactly?] 2008. And on through his unparalleled dominance in 2010 on then onwards which had to inspire every Terran player and many fans. The hype shouldn't be surprising... it's there for a reason. And if SC3 came out in a few months, and a player like Life switched over a bit late you'd see the exact same kind of "overhype" and talk. But anyway, back to Flash...

So then he transferred to a new game, a bit late on unfortunately, and sure, too many people would talk too highly about him expecting him soon to "own everyone" and dominate as he did in '10. Which was stupid, but in a way I thought it was mostly light-hearted (the "God is back" jokes etc). Many of us, with the demise of BW, were just happy to see him playing again and giving SC2 a real go. And despite solid runs, and flashes of brilliance, he never reached the heights probably too many people "expected" from him after all the hype and all that. And it became something of a running joke... and eventually I think to him personally a massive burden on his shoulders especially in individual leagues.

Personally I see no shame in being something like a consistent Top 15 - Top 30 player in such a competitive scene. Real question, how many more Terrans have been significantly more impressive than Flash from 2013-2015 that were not named like Innovation or Maru (or Taeja I guess)? Consistently? Serious question. Considering overall body of work. Not that many that truly stood out from the pack IMO. Only players like Dream in spurts who would eventually recess again.

Thing is when you become a true massive a fan of a person, an idea, [a "playstyle"], you hope to see it continue as long as possible... unfortunately Flash proved to be past his peak and a few too many strong BW players who were unable to quite make it in the previous iteration, had picked up SC2 faster and it suited them and their individual skillsets more, and achieved significantly more success in this new game. Who knew sOs would turn out to be such a revelation. And players like herO[join], who smartly switched from BW Zerg to SC2 Protoss, which helped them along with their success. Same with Classic, switched from BW Terran to SC2 Protoss, and look at his relative success. Had Classic stayed Terran would he have had more success in SC2 than even the "underwhelming" Flash?

People can hate on the Flash hype sure, it is understandable in a way, but I would implore them to objectively see Flash for what he stood for and the competitor he is/was, and that there is surely something there to appreciate even if you only know his SC2 story. So what if the "hype" was a bit overblown? Flash had this aura for a reason, he had won it in an earlier era, and deserved it... just like players like Life will have going forward. And a slight tangent, here is another player, in Life, that I can argue is a bit over-hyped in a similar way, one who many seem to think is basically the greatest SC2 player of all time (except way to let down KT in Proleague buddy) and his fanboys are "annoying" but what's the point? I don't quite see things the same way but that's okay. I still massively respect the little fucker for what he's accomplished in individual leagues, and get how he's an inspiration to basically all Zerg players. But at the end of the day I just want to see great Starcraft again with great rivalries and clashes of playstyles between elite players, on the biggest stages... and hope the now-weird LOTV era proves to develop into something decent.

The MVP comparisons are stupid and pointless. Simply not comparable. Ultimately, we just lost a massive icon and this will hurt the game a bit in a way and is pretty sad. Even though pretty much everyone saw this coming sooner rather than later. But of course all good things come to an end eventually, it's just nice to go down memory lane and remember Flash's legacy and what he gave to the game... in both BW and SC2.

Sorry got a bit rambly there, but fuck, it's weird coming to terms seeing such a great competitor like Flash that I personally adored being gone from the game forever. Plenty of other amazing players to follow with great stories as well going forward, it's just Flash's has been extra special to me personally . As I'm sure it has been with quite a few others.
(>'.')>
lastride
Profile Joined April 2014
2390 Posts
December 08 2015 07:38 GMT
#702
On December 08 2015 05:30 jonich0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2015 22:44 Quateras wrote:
Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.

Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.

Ah yes, that HSC finals vs Parting. Another nice memory and epic series, even though Flash eventually succumbed in that ever-so-close Game 7 and 3-4 loss.

I see a couple Flash haters coming in here to say "he wasn't that good" and the "hype was annoying" in SC2. Well no shit? If you were never a fan of his in BW, and you don't particularly root for Terran players in SC2 or are a big KT fan, there isn't all that much reason to be a specific fan of his in SC2. But fact is, he won an incredible amount of fans for both his truly incredible BW play and his fierce yet humble character since his rise in [what was it exactly?] 2008. And on through his unparalleled dominance in 2010 on then onwards which had to inspire every Terran player and many fans. The hype shouldn't be surprising... it's there for a reason. And if SC3 came out in a few months, and a player like Life switched over a bit late you'd see the exact same kind of "overhype" and talk. But anyway, back to Flash...

So then he transferred to a new game, a bit late on unfortunately, and sure, too many people would talk too highly about him expecting him soon to "own everyone" and dominate as he did in '10. Which was stupid, but in a way I thought it was mostly light-hearted (the "God is back" jokes etc). Many of us, with the demise of BW, were just happy to see him playing again and giving SC2 a real go. And despite solid runs, and flashes of brilliance, he never reached the heights probably too many people "expected" from him after all the hype and all that. And it became something of a running joke... and eventually I think to him personally a massive burden on his shoulders especially in individual leagues.

Personally I see no shame in being something like a consistent Top 15 - Top 30 player in such a competitive scene. Real question, how many more Terrans have been significantly more impressive than Flash from 2013-2015 that were not named like Innovation or Maru (or Taeja I guess)? Consistently? Serious question. Considering overall body of work. Not that many that truly stood out from the pack IMO. Only players like Dream in spurts who would eventually recess again.

Thing is when you become a true massive a fan of a person, an idea, [a "playstyle"], you hope to see it continue as long as possible... unfortunately Flash proved to be past his peak and a few too many strong BW players who were unable to quite make it in the previous iteration, had picked up SC2 faster and it suited them and their individual skillsets more, and achieved significantly more success in this new game. Who knew sOs would turn out to be such a revelation. And players like herO[join], who smartly switched from BW Zerg to SC2 Protoss, which helped them along with their success. Same with Classic, switched from BW Terran to SC2 Protoss, and look at his relative success. Had Classic stayed Terran would he have had more success in SC2 than even the "underwhelming" Flash?

People can hate on the Flash hype sure, it is understandable in a way, but I would implore them to objectively see Flash for what he stood for and the competitor he is/was, and that there is surely something there to appreciate even if you only know his SC2 story. So what if the "hype" was a bit overblown? Flash had this aura for a reason, he had won it in an earlier era, and deserved it... just like players like Life will have going forward. And a slight tangent, here is another player, in Life, that I can argue is a bit over-hyped in a similar way, one who many seem to think is basically the greatest SC2 player of all time (except way to let down KT in Proleague buddy) and his fanboys are "annoying" but what's the point? I don't quite see things the same way but that's okay. I still massively respect the little fucker for what he's accomplished in individual leagues, and get how he's an inspiration to basically all Zerg players. But at the end of the day I just want to see great Starcraft again with great rivalries and clashes of playstyles between elite players, on the biggest stages... and hope the now-weird LOTV era proves to develop into something decent.

The MVP comparisons are stupid and pointless. Simply not comparable. Ultimately, we just lost a massive icon and this will hurt the game a bit in a way and is pretty sad. Even though pretty much everyone saw this coming sooner rather than later. But of course all good things come to an end eventually, it's just nice to go down memory lane and remember Flash's legacy and what he gave to the game... in both BW and SC2.

Sorry got a bit rambly there, but fuck, it's weird coming to terms seeing such a great competitor like Flash that I personally adored being gone from the game forever. Plenty of other amazing players to follow with great stories as well going forward, it's just Flash's has been extra special to me personally . As I'm sure it has been with quite a few others.
wow what a great post. Im still in the face of denial so im just a bit mad Flash decided to give up at such a young age when every other succesful bw pro went over 26 years old. Boxer Nada Stork Reach etc.. and they had the same punishing schedules. Ayways i know that Flah doesnt owe us anything but still he had at least 2 more good years and since his army duty is in 3 years i cant understnad why he didnt give lotv a shot.
prech
Profile Joined March 2014
United States2948 Posts
December 09 2015 05:09 GMT
#703
Looks like Flash participated in a pretty extensive interview yesterday, any Korean speakers mind translating some tidbits?

If Google Translate serves correctly, something about no plans for the immediate future, with regards to Afreeca and BW

http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=147949 (alternately link)
[image loading]
Liquipedia
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
December 09 2015 05:41 GMT
#704
On December 09 2015 14:09 prech wrote:
Looks like Flash participated in a pretty extensive interview yesterday, any Korean speakers mind translating some tidbits?

If Google Translate serves correctly, something about no plans for the immediate future, with regards to Afreeca and BW

http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=147949 (alternately link)
[image loading]


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/499748-the-final-tale-of-the-ultimate-weapon

Someone posted this up, might be the same one?
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
December 09 2015 06:41 GMT
#705
On December 09 2015 14:41 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2015 14:09 prech wrote:
Looks like Flash participated in a pretty extensive interview yesterday, any Korean speakers mind translating some tidbits?

If Google Translate serves correctly, something about no plans for the immediate future, with regards to Afreeca and BW

http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=147949 (alternately link)
[image loading]


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/499748-the-final-tale-of-the-ultimate-weapon

Someone posted this up, might be the same one?


What? I missd this interview. Thanks for bringing it up
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
December 09 2015 06:45 GMT
#706
Sick trophy pic. I won't process Flash's absence until PL starts... makes me sick.
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
December 09 2015 06:48 GMT
#707
On December 09 2015 15:45 Vasoline73 wrote:
Sick trophy pic. I won't process Flash's absence until PL starts... makes me sick.


My thoughts too... KT's first Proleague day is gonna be so sad
prech
Profile Joined March 2014
United States2948 Posts
December 09 2015 07:51 GMT
#708
On December 09 2015 14:41 Phredxor wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/499748-the-final-tale-of-the-ultimate-weapon

Someone posted this up, might be the same one?

Thanks, indeed it is!

Did a search and the title didn't pop up
Liquipedia
Draconicfire
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2562 Posts
December 10 2015 07:09 GMT
#709
https://www.facebook.com/ktesports/posts/1010304739030143:0

Looks like there's retirement event. I hope I can make it.
@Drayxs | Drayxs.221 | Drayxs#1802
rotta
Profile Joined December 2011
5589 Posts
December 10 2015 11:16 GMT
#710
On December 10 2015 16:09 Draconicfire wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/ktesports/posts/1010304739030143:0

Looks like there's retirement event. I hope I can make it.

Sorry, this page isn't available

The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed.
don't wall off against random
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4128 Posts
December 30 2015 16:12 GMT
#711
I haven't been following SC for ages now and just caught up with this. Dam what a moment, the best SC player of all time and the one that got me hooked. All the best in life Flash!
lastride
Profile Joined April 2014
2390 Posts
December 30 2015 17:51 GMT
#712
On December 09 2015 15:48 Silvana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2015 15:45 Vasoline73 wrote:
Sick trophy pic. I won't process Flash's absence until PL starts... makes me sick.


My thoughts too... KT's first Proleague day is gonna be so sad

omg man I 've just thought about that too. Proleague without Flash
Werk
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States294 Posts
December 30 2015 19:03 GMT
#713
Sad but, im sure he will apear in the starcraft community now and again...he is to big a deal to just leave it all behind....
Do Werk Son
revy
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1524 Posts
December 30 2015 20:13 GMT
#714
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2015 10:12 darktreb wrote:]
On December 04 2015 01:59 Caihead wrote:
On December 03 2015 22:02 SuperFanBoy wrote:
On December 03 2015 16:44 rotta wrote:
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote:
This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.

Indeed, that one map he won.


The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.

There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.

MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.


MVP 2011 (WoL):
Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games
Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games
Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games
Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games
Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games
Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games
Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games
Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S

MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31
119-56 (68%) 175 games
vT: 64-27 (70.33%)
vZ: 31-16 (65.96%)
vP: 24-13 (64.86%)


Flash 2010 (BW):
Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games
Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games
Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games
Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games
Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games
Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games
Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games

Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31
128-43 (74.85%) 171 games
vT: 44-17 (72.13%)
vZ: 44-18 (70.97%)
vP: 40-8 (83.33%)

I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.


It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career.

This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything.

The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments.

The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games.

As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go.

While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so.

It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010.

And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa.

To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration.

MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole.

Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period.

This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.



Nice to see someone remembers.For those who didn't follow BW, Flash was something else. I think the thing that most stood out to me was that he won all the games where he ended up with an advantage (BO advantage or won an early skirmish) and then he won the majority of games where he ended up at a disadvantage too.

I'm sad that he never really picked up SC2 in quite the same way, but I think it's understandable. Flash had achieved his peak in 2009-2010. Had BW continued on for a while, I doubt he would have continued to dominate like he did. Every player has a rise and fall. Flash's fall was hastened by the switch to SC2.

I always wished that Ver would do a "god of the battlefield" type final edit on Flash. I think I recall that he had been working on one, but that was so long ago; I don't imagine we'll ever get to see it.

Can't argue with his 2009-2010 season results (seasons started in September/October and ended in August/September with ~1-1.5 months off inbetween). quoting from an old thread:

On September 11 2010 08:12 revy wrote:
From October 1 2009 until today.

Record:
140-41 (77.35%)

TvT
49-14 (77.78%)

TvP
37-8 (82.22%)

TvZ
54-19 (73.97%)

Individual Titles:
4 Gold 2 Silver

Team league Titles:
PL Finals Gold WL Finals Gold

ELO Record
2443

Kespa Record
4292.5

Best. Year. Ever.

An Interesting aside....

Jaedong noticeably effected Flash's overall win pct and vZ win pct. Since October 2009 Flash has been 14-8 with JD. Removing these games from the pool Flash was...

Record:
126-33 (79.25%) (+1.9%)

TvZ
40-11 (78.43%) (+4.46%)
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