Flash has officially announced his retirement. Flash stated that, "I`ve been happy for the last 8 years as a progamer. I'll keep my fingers crossed for this scene now and forever."
"... Flash, the best SC player for 9 years of his career, intimated his intention to retire, saying "It's about time I retire from this scene." KT Rolster respects Flash's decision and has decided to accept it.
Then, he made some statement for his retirement and future plans. "As a progamer, I`ve got so much more than I deserve. It`s been long 9 years, and I won`t forget the love that my fans gave me. From now on, I`d like to travel or rest a while, thinking about future. Regardless of what I decide to do later on, I don't think I'll be putting down my keyboard and mouse."
It is known that KT Rolster is preparing for his retirement ceremony, while proceeding forward with new recruitment plans in order to fill the gap.
"Seems like the rumors were already circulated; some streaming sites offered me proposals, even before the announcement. However, I won`t do anything official until next January."
"When I told JD about my retirement, he didn't give much of a reaction. We talked about the glory days of the past rather than about an uneasy future."
Flash continues, "I am planning on joining the army in about three years. In the end, I want to do my best to give back what I have received from the eSports scene. My ultimate goal is to become the head coach of KT Rolster and make it the strongest/best team in the world."
KT Rolster's Flash has declared his retirement, closing off the Taekbaegleessang generation.
In eSport's 15 years of history, there has always been a group four people that defined the generation. Boxer, Yellow, Nada and Reach were the first generation of greats and later came Oov, July, Xellos and Nalra. In 2008 a new group formed, Jaedong, Flash, Stork and Bisu.
The four players became rivals that dominated and won many leagues. None of them could hold onto the top for long and competed with each other for the love of their fans.
But when the change from Brood War to StarCraft 2 happened, the generation of Taekbaegleessang started to fade. Bisu retired, Stork became a playing coach and Jaedong went abroad because activities in Korean leagues became too difficult. Flash was the only one to stay in Korea as the final member of Taekbaegleessang as an active participant.
It's the time to say goodbye to Taekbaegleessang with Flash. Fans should not forget these players who have led Korean eSports for so long.
So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
lol if you don't think soulkey, innovation, etcetcetc are elephants too ^^
looks like Flash was not okay with merely being a good player in Korea considering where he came from in BW. I mean he's still pretty young so I don't think age was the reason for retirement. Sad though as LotV is kind of a new starting point, would have been awesome to see what he could have done with that
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
On December 01 2015 19:57 Pandemona wrote: No idea!! Crazy times, guess he really did not lotv and didn't want to get worst. Wonder what he will do now
He made it sound like he wanted to continue with Starcraft (either SC2 or BW) just not as an SC2 pro. Maybe he'll compete in BW or become a streamer or become a coach or caster. Who knows? I guess only time will tell. At least he isn't leaving the Starcraft scene. While it is a big surprise, it sounds like it will be merely a change of roles.
Although common sense dictated that this would happen eventually, it still hit me like bolt from the blue. Despite his shortcomings in individual leagues we shouldn't forget the impact he had on 2013 and 2014 Proleague, his phenomenal work ethic and of course his incredible history in BW. Goodbye Flash, thanks for the wonderful memories!
On December 01 2015 20:04 Destructicon wrote: Although common sense dictated that this would happen eventually, it still hit me like bolt from the blue. Despite his shortcomings in individual leagues we shouldn't forget the impact he had on 2013 and 2014 Proleague, his phenomenal work ethic and of course his incredible history in BW. Goodbye Flash, thanks for the wonderful memories!
It doesn't sound like a goodbye to me. He made it sound like it's a changing of roles but that he'll likely stay in Starcraft esports.
Makes sense. He never really transitioned all that well into SC2, only occasionally "showing promise" and not breaking through into the upper realm of progamers.
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
Show some respect.
What? You did notice that he is still perfectly alive, right?
It's a guy who has made a very reasonable life decisions, there is really nothing more to it.
A sad day for starcraft Everyone had big expectations for him even though sc2 is a different game. He was probably disappointed with his performance overall for the last few years.
Wow that is quite big. Very surprising, hope he made the right decision for himself. Wish him the best of luck in the future, he seemed like a cool guy tbh
*да флэш просто суший макро терран я не понемаю зачем он вызвался за завершение кареры приемушество было у него на стороне он мог бы просто полететь в сша или поехать в европу под зданиями зделать визу и просто тупо забить на армею у которой был 1 прапор и пачка солдат с пачкой танков протев террановского лимита это смешно просто смешно в любом случае у него стояло столько кубков что даже если бы он не смог убежать от всех прапоров то он мог бы просто проплатить их начальнеков а если бы даже не проплатил то всё равно прапоры бы их слили на его фанатках которых там было чтук 20*
Code S ro16 won't be the same without him. This might sound like a backhanded compliment but it's not. The guy was too stubborn to make SC2 work for him in individual leagues at the highest levels, but he always brought a sense of gravity, integrity, and urgency to any competition he took part in.
It was easy to overlook Flash for other, more successful Terrans, but by the time he was in that fifth match of the deciding bracket in the ro16 you know I was rooting for him all over again. I'll really miss that.
I imagine he stuck around to give LoTV a shot and decided it wasn't for him, would explain the timing at least.
A pity he never reached his BW heights but he did do very well in PL and did win an individual title. A pretty successful career in SC2 if not judging it by Flash's reputation.
Holy shit. First thing I thought was "please be april 1st." Holy crap . Flash you brought me into Starcraft... will always remember your BW legend status. KTFlash forever.
For me, one of the all time great esports stars. He was more than just a player, he really did have an aura around him and I'm not talking about the "God" nickname, but it was easy to see how and why that label stuck so well.
In the early days, I followed Broodwar very little away from WCG, but I'd heard about this kid who was crushing everyone in Korea and over the years and my involvement with SC2, I hoped, prayed even that I'd get the chance to see him play live, complete with his ruler and measuring his positions up in a booth.
He also inspired me (along with Bomber) to play Terran when I learned the game and honestly, without him, one of my favourite events might not have been as good as it was. IEM Toronto was of course stacked with great players, but the presence of Flash was something I was really looking forward to and for a time, he was actually looking like his old godlike self. He actually had a chance to win an event and delivered!
In addition, I got to completely fanboy him (something I rarely do in esports) with three of us (me, Nathanias and Qxc) all doing the praying (as Terrans of course!).
I also had the crazy pleasure of being baptized in Toronto, all be it with a bucket of ice by Flash and I gave him my Kappa tie, which had been specially made for the event.
It's such a shame players like this have to retire one day, but then you get to share your experiences of why a player made such a difference to you and Flash is one of those players for me. I can count on one hand how many of these special, elite players in esports there are or have been and Flash is on that list.
I think we will all have stories and memories to keep thanks to Flash, I know I will have some that will stay with me for my entire life, so for those and many others, thank you Flash, you've been epic.
“All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring.”
On December 01 2015 19:28 Thouhastmail wrote: Flash continues, "3 yrs later, I`m going to join the army. After that, I`ll do my best to give back what I`ve received from esports scene. My ulitmate goal is to become a head coach of KT Rolsters, making it the mightiest team of the world."
I'd prefer to see him again in Broodwar along with Bisu and the rest. But not retiring from progaming, no, damn... what a shock!
Man I love bw much more than sc2 but the bw scene atm is a joke to what it was. Just compare the games to the old kespa ones. I dont want Flash to go to a decling bw scene. Nothing for him to prove there. He had potential in lotv but for some reason he gave it up
On December 01 2015 19:28 Thouhastmail wrote: Flash continues, "3 yrs later, I`m going to join the army. After that, I`ll do my best to give back what I`ve received from esports scene. My ulitmate goal is to become a head coach of KT Rolsters, making it the mightiest team of the world."
I will wait for this day to happen.
I thought he could get out of army duty due to winning a WCG or something?
On December 01 2015 20:35 lastride wrote: Cant this just be a big trolling attempt from KT? Zest is older and TY is 22 I think. The age thing isnt the reason imo there is smth else here
Dude. Flash decided it's time for him to retire. And that's that.
On December 01 2015 19:28 Thouhastmail wrote: Flash continues, "3 yrs later, I`m going to join the army. After that, I`ll do my best to give back what I`ve received from esports scene. My ulitmate goal is to become a head coach of KT Rolsters, making it the mightiest team of the world."
I will wait for this day to happen.
I thought he could get out of army duty due to winning a WCG or something?
On December 01 2015 20:20 Wombat_NI wrote: I imagine he stuck around to give LoTV a shot and decided it wasn't for him, would explain the timing at least.
A pity he never reached his BW heights but he did do very well in PL and did win an individual title. A pretty successful career in SC2 if not judging it by Flash's reputation.
Yep, achievement and skill wise he is still among the very top of the scene, hard to believe this.
I'd prefer to see him again in Broodwar along with Bisu and the rest. But not retiring from progaming, no, damn... what a shock!
Man I love bw much more than sc2 but the bw scene atm is a joke to what it was. Just compare the games to the old kespa ones. I dont want Flash to go to a decling bw scene. Nothing for him to prove there. He had potential in lotv but for some reason he gave it up
I don't see him being anywhere near best he is expected to be in foreseeable future.
He's gonna go out on that lousy GPL performance? That's the saddest way to end a career like his that I could imagine.
I'm kind of shocked that he wouldn't stick around longer. Presumably he was still getting great money from KT just from his name alone, but I guess it's not always about money and he has more than most 23 year olds could ever dream of having, not to mention the prestige of being a household name in Korea and close to it outside... but it's still tragic to see.
Wow, that came unexpected. At least, he can always go and play bo5 vs Effort/Bisu/Zero ^_^
Flash will always be the face of Starcraft, so it doesn't matter if he retires now or after another disappointing year in Code S. KT without Flash though, that's going to feel weird for a while.
On December 01 2015 21:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: He's gonna go out on that lousy GPL performance? That's the saddest way to end a career like his that I could imagine.
I'm kind of shocked that he wouldn't stick around longer. Presumably he was still getting great money from KT just from his name alone, but I guess it's not always about money and he has more than most 23 year olds could ever dream of having, not to mention the prestige of being a household name in Korea and close to it outside... but it's still tragic to see.
RIP Flash.
Well he did win something there...
I think this is an decision in the making since long ago, tbh I believe a lot of us saw this coming but probably not a lot realize this could be so close. He had his run obviously, a sc2 career not on par to mighty expectations but still very successful considering how late he got into this game and his age, I mean being the ace/backbone player of a top team for around two years and several high finishes including a premier win? 99% of sc2 players would kill for what he achieved.
Still can't believe it was a long nine years, the man deserves some rest and we should celebrate his legacy and wish the best for his future.
I called this a while ago, still.....I dunno I mean watching flash play was one of the earliest things that got me into the scene, what made me a KT fan....its just KT without flash is like....well a new generation has finally begun.
On December 01 2015 21:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: He's gonna go out on that lousy GPL performance? That's the saddest way to end a career like his that I could imagine.
I'm kind of shocked that he wouldn't stick around longer. Presumably he was still getting great money from KT just from his name alone, but I guess it's not always about money and he has more than most 23 year olds could ever dream of having, not to mention the prestige of being a household name in Korea and close to it outside... but it's still tragic to see.
RIP Flash.
He does say that he eventually wants to make KT the greatest team in the world as headcoach. He's already planning the great recovery.
We just need to convince Jaedong to eventually coach Jin Air.
gl next Flash, but u know You are such a true macro teran I dont anderstand wai he agree to the draw an odvantage was on his side he could just fly by the half of hees buildings and drive forword by his troops in the ottack ander the buildings make siege and just dumbly kill toss which had 1 chtormer and a pack of keriers with a pack of droguns versus teran limit it is funny just funny anywai so much tarrets were standing there that if even he could not kill all of carers he could cut off their intorseptors but if he even did not finish them off carrers would loose them on his tarets which were samwhat 20 piese
But I wouldn't be surprised if he came back to BW.
I think he gave it up too early, could have given LotV this year at least a try, things can change, it's a new game. If by the end of 2016 didn't work out, a retirement there would have been much more reasonable. This feels like it came out of nowhere.
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
Show some fucking respect.
Pretty depressing. I figured that LotV was gonna be Flash's game.
I didn't follow BW, but the way he managed to stay relevant after his switch to sc2 and all the efforts he made to come back from his slumps, to always be back on top, esp in Proleague (his victory against parting last year and his almost all kill against JA this year) have earned him my admiration and respect. Seriously if Life had half his dedication and professionalism, KT would have been invicible.
It would be cool if could stay somehow active in the sc2 universe, to help where it's needed, seeing him simply stream some BW would be disappointed to me (even if I know many fans are dreaming about it...)
I'm sad to see the news but it was probably about time. I will never forget the rivalry shared vs my fav progamer Jaedong Flash fighting! Good Luck in whatever you do next.
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
Show some fucking respect.
Pretty depressing. I figured that LotV was gonna be Flash's game.
lol, its not like he died.
he didn't see flash in his prime, he wasn't there, he wouldn't get it and I don't care to explain it to him.
On December 01 2015 21:35 boxerfred wrote: I came to Teamliquid, saw the news title and instantly checked for April 1st.
Shame it isn't.
Same. It feels really depressing for me. I was hoping he'd at least give LotV a try for next year, and give at least one last effort to win a premier tourney.
What? I didn't follow BW but since he was the best I hoped he would have been able to dominate in sc2 at least once, but he retires before doing it, disappointing...
To the icon and role model of those esports players who have now taken presence in foremost popularity, Flash should be given a proper send off and sign of respect.
On December 01 2015 21:45 Poopi wrote: What? I didn't follow BW but since he was the best I hoped he would have been able to dominate in sc2 at least once, but he retires before doing it, disappointing...
He did dominate once, he went on a tear the couple of months leading up to the IEM that he won.
Flash deserves every piece of respect he will recieve. You rarely see a player who maintains a level of dignity and humbleness as he did.
His career is markable in the entire context of esports as a whole. Much of what we call esports in Korea and outside can be attributed in some small way, if even larger to his efforts.
Wow of all things was not expecting to wake up and hear this. Very sad news for long time fans. But also understandable. I bet after 8 years of playing at the highest level that kind of stress gets to you. Considering a lot of other progamers in other games don't last nearly as long.
Worst day ever in Starcraft. I will always miss you Flash, thanks for all the amazing memories in the last years, both BW and SC2 <3 Can't wait for you to come back as a coach and once again make KT the best again!
Edit: It's not too bad if goes to play BW i guess but i will be super sad if he stops SC2 and BW both
One of the few that got to make the decision to retire good to see him walk out with pomp from his original team. Too many have this decision made for them through lack of results and financial decision by a team.
Was always a fan of his and always wished he did well in the game throughout his career even in SC2, so after so many years I thank him for all the good games and wish him well outside the game. Rest well Flash, thank you, see you back in BW later .
Somewhat surprising news, although his success in SC2 wasn't the greatest, it was still fairly substantial. I guess he couldn't really make LotV work and decided to stop now. I think moving back to BW seems most likely given that he is still going to be involved in esports.
On December 01 2015 21:45 Poopi wrote: What? I didn't follow BW but since he was the best I hoped he would have been able to dominate in sc2 at least once, but he retires before doing it, disappointing...
He did dominate once, he went on a tear the couple of months leading up to the IEM that he won.
While his achievements in that time were fairly impressive, I wouldn't really call it dominance (he was never an overwhelming favourite over other top level players at the time).
On December 01 2015 19:51 opisska wrote: So you are telling me that the endless hyping of a guy who used to be really great in another game has come to an end? Well, it was fun, but it was getting a little old.
But honestly, I was hoping for some more tears in this thread. It's the elephant extinction guys!
Basically fuck yeah, as this was the only way he'd return to BW. Which I hope he does now, Afreeca awaits, now we only need the greatest rival to postpone his military service for another couple years
If he goes back to bw I will be the happiest man alive, if he doesnt I will be the saddest. Waiting with bated breath.
On December 01 2015 22:08 FeyFey wrote: GL Flash with whatever you will be doing, thanks for bringing valkyries into TvZ!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that was oov and the only one I can really remember doing valkonic builds in Flashs era was Fantasy, regardless he was a true god for being the only true unbreakable macromachine.
On December 01 2015 22:27 juvenal wrote: Basically fuck yeah, as this was the only way he'd return to BW. Which I hope he does now, Afreeca awaits, now we only need the greatest rival to postpone his military service for another couple years
He timed this with Bisu being called to the Army. He's holding out until January to see that it actually happens. I can smell god's fear from here.
On December 01 2015 22:30 Snugles wrote: If he goes back to bw I will be the happiest man alive, if he doesnt I will be the saddest. Waiting with bated breath.
On December 01 2015 22:08 FeyFey wrote: GL Flash with whatever you will be doing, thanks for bringing valkyries into TvZ!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that was oov and the only one I can really remember doing valkonic builds in Flashs era was Fantasy, regardless he was a true god for being the only true unbreakable macromachine.
towards the last OSLs Flash had this funky build with fast Valks to punish zerg's third with a small push.
On December 01 2015 22:27 juvenal wrote: Basically fuck yeah, as this was the only way he'd return to BW. Which I hope he does now, Afreeca awaits, now we only need the greatest rival to postpone his military service for another couple years
He timed this with Bisu being called to the Army. He's holding out until January to see that it actually happens. I can smell god's fear from here.
pfffft yeah right, Bisu is going to the army next year regardless of whats going to happen and I doubt they'd meet in a tournament anyway.
How do you feel about SC2 progamers retiring and returning to BW on Afreeca? Is that something you would consider?
Flash: Hmmm, well, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know about streaming on Afreecatv but I do intend on playing BW again later on. A lot of fans are wanting that from me.
Jaedong, your move. FanTaSy and Stork should follow. BW renaissance~
That guy has always had a special mystique around him, I never followed BW yet even in Warcraft scene you heard about him often. I remember him entering the SC2 scene and all the elephant talk, that hype really reinvigorated SC2 for a while.
I'm sure BW players feel this much more intensely than I, but I can honestly say he will be missed.
I think if BW does become popular again, blizzard can put an effort to make BW big in KR again. They don't have to worry BW taking over the SC2 scene internationally and can sustain both in KR
On December 01 2015 22:52 TheCzarOfAll wrote: The man that stopped JD from being a Bonjwa. Sad to see such skill leave.
He is simply returning.
How do you feel about SC2 progamers retiring and returning to BW on Afreeca? Is that something you would consider?
Flash: Hmmm, well, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know about streaming on Afreecatv but I do intend on playing BW again later on. A lot of fans are wanting that from me.
wow, I just can't believe it. Always expected him to eventually become a top sc2 player first. Hope we'll see him around for fun show matches or bw sometimes. Best player ever.
On December 01 2015 23:02 purakushi wrote: A few of the Korean comments say that FlaSh was the only reason to follow SC2. With him gone, they don't care about the game.
Every big retirement has a few people say that. It's unfortunate but it happens
On December 01 2015 23:02 purakushi wrote: A few of the Korean comments say that FlaSh was the only reason to follow SC2. With him gone, they don't care about the game.
Every big retirement has a few people say that. It's unfortunate but it happens
On December 01 2015 23:02 purakushi wrote: A few of the Korean comments say that FlaSh was the only reason to follow SC2. With him gone, they don't care about the game.
Every big retirement has a few people say that. It's unfortunate but it happens
Goes to show that whatever popularity SC2 has (in Korea) has been held up by BW and things related to BW.
SC2 has its merits, but there is only so much a game can be held up by its prequel (and Blizzard's money).
On December 01 2015 23:13 wjat wrote: I feel players like MMA are going to do the same... End of an Era Terran have suffered so much already :-(
MMA was gonna retire after this year - originally he was gonna retire after 2014 but stayed an extra year. Either way MMA is getting up in the years in progamer terms. That one isn't so much as a surprise, but it was cool to see how long he lasted as a top tier pro.
On December 01 2015 23:10 Silvana wrote: I still don't get it really... It really looked to me that he wanted to give LotV a shot.
There are some of us (seems Flash included) that really just don't enjoy LotV. It feels like such a big step away from what makes a Starcraft game great. Lot's of people are enjoying the change of pace, but I know there are some like me who just haven't enjoyed playing LotV at all.
Still can't believe this after so many hours... I feel he kinda let his fans down with the timing of his decision. He is too young and didn't even play a few tournaments to see for himself. He was doing great on ladder and suddenly he stops playing. So sad TT
On December 01 2015 23:10 Silvana wrote: I still don't get it really... It really looked to me that he wanted to give LotV a shot.
I dunno. When he talked about what's different between LotV and HotS at the Korean LotV launch event, that had a strange vibe to me, like he didn't really see himself playing LotV, only others. And during the GSL group selection, when they asked him whether he had ever thought about becoming a coach and if he had any plans for the future after his career was over, and he said yes to both, with a smile...
On December 01 2015 23:10 Silvana wrote: I still don't get it really... It really looked to me that he wanted to give LotV a shot.
I dunno. When he talked about what's different between LotV and HotS at the Korean LotV launch event, that had a strange vibe to me, like he didn't really see himself playing LotV, only others. And during the GSL group selection, when they asked him whether he had ever thought about becoming a coach and if he had any plans for the future after his career was over, and he said yes to both, with a smile...
Well maybe it's just my emotions that don't let me understand the decision, like.. he can and explain me his reasons himself and I still wouldn't understand
I was so happy because we are finally on December with means GSL and PL soon.. Oh this one is gonna hit hard again the first day of PL T_T
On December 01 2015 23:10 Silvana wrote: I still don't get it really... It really looked to me that he wanted to give LotV a shot.
There are some of us (seems Flash included) that really just don't enjoy LotV. It feels like such a big step away from what makes a Starcraft game great. Lot's of people are enjoying the change of pace, but I know there are some like me who just haven't enjoyed playing LotV at all.
I'm completely with you on this. I just hate LOTV to the core and switched to BW. Having fun there, at lest, it was not spoiled by the likes of David Kim and his "Viewer first" philosophy.
OMG, good chances Flash returns to BW, streaming games on afreeca!
"Seems like the rumours were already circulated; some streaming sites offered me proposals, even before the announcement. However, I won`t do anything till next January."
I haven't been up with recent results, but I feel like he kinda stagnated. He was rather uneventful. So much hype around this guy, just didn't live up to into sc2.
Damn, Flash. Funny to think when I first heard of him, many people here (self included!) didnt like him bc he was the cheesy terran who knocked out Bisu and then lost. Boy were we all wrong. Thanks for the memories amigo
On December 01 2015 23:38 fromtenedos wrote: Honestly I really thought LotV will fit quite well into Flash's playing style. Such a shame. Wish him the best.
With due all respect that is the funnest joke I ever heard.
Legacy of the Void is everything that FlaSh does not play.
He likes greedy macro style into defensive strategy and positional plays.
Legacy is about expansions dying out fast and dancing units with active abilities with 0 positional play and worker massacre. I was not surprised by his decision at all.
i will never forget his win in 2014 SPL finals with his team KT vs SKT and his IEM Toronto win. it was silly of anyone to ever expect him to live up to his BW legacy. something like that can never be repeated. he was a solid SC2 player.
in some way i am happy for him, he can get away from the pressure of being expected to perform like he is unbeatable. and i don't think LOTV suits his playstyle at all. SC2 has turned in to a game of gimmicks.
On December 01 2015 23:56 lichter wrote: If you turn this thread into a shitshow, I will ban you. Consider this a verbal warning for everyone.
hm? who does that? i just posted my joy over the absence of shitposting
You clearly didn't read all of it.
On December 01 2015 23:38 outscar wrote: Congratz Blizz and DK. Now who gonna play your LotV, who needs it? Ahahaha no words. Even best player IRL refused that pile of crap.
Welcome aboard God. About fucking time to continue BW saga. Bring back the real game!
On December 02 2015 00:07 Silvana wrote: Well it he goes to BW there's no option for me but to start learning BW... heh I didn't think the Starcraft history lessons would be useful someday
I'm not all that familiar with how Korea/Kespa runs, but hypothetically if Flash really hated Legacy would he be expected to keep quiet on that front for the sake of PR?
I guess we kinda saw this happening sooner or later? Incredibly sad news but I'm really glad he's not leaving esports. Really hope he will stream BW on Afreeca too. Farewell, the Ultimate Weapon.
On December 02 2015 00:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm not all that familiar with how Korea/Kespa runs, but hypothetically if Flash really hated Legacy would he be expected to keep quiet on that front for the sake of PR?
Flash was always the good soldier so there is no way he's going to do something to embarrass or shittalk KeSPA or his team, even indirectly.
As a Flash fan, I'll miss waking up to watch his games. But I can't shake the feeling that this is probably overdue.
It was never about SC2. Anyone who's ever been at the top - and Flash was at the top of BW in a way that none of us are likely to be at the top of anything, ever, in our lives - finds themselves facing the question afterward: what comes next? You have to dig really deep to find the motivation to keep going after you've so thoroughly conquered something, and Flash never really ever found it again, as anyone who watched 2011-12 Flash knows. He held on for one more Proleague championship and one last MSL, but after he got his Golden Badge there was nothing left to go on for and SC2 didn't re-light the fire. Ever since then, that's what we've been watching - the dying embers of perhaps the greatest career e-sports has ever known, next to Boxer's, with the occasional flare-up that keeps us interested and reminds of what once was.
I understand the people excited to see him go back to BW on Afreeca, but I would also be cautious in that respect. It's always possible that going back after such a long absence will re-motivate him, but BW wasn't doing it for him after the Golden Badge and it very well may still not. It was never the game. It was the emotion, the passion - the will to be the greatest and the work ethic to see it through. Watching 2010 Flash, it was impossible not to get the feeling that this was something really, really special. And that's the thing about "special" - it isn't special if it happens often. 2010 Flash had never happened before. It may not happen again for a very long time.
Of course I'd like to see him stream BW again, if only for nostalgia's sake. Flash's peak BW years were good years to be a fan of Starcraft. But more than that, I hope he finds his "next". I hope there's something out there for him to find. That will, that work ethic - it can't have just vanished. It doesn't deserve to die with Flash's Starcraft career. Some of that 2010 magic clung to him for years afterward. Somehow we all sense that the potential for miracles is still there.
I wonder if this has something to do with him not liking lotv. I mean he practiced lotv and played some showmatches. If he had the plan to retire before that he would have quit right after hots ended.
On December 02 2015 00:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm not all that familiar with how Korea/Kespa runs, but hypothetically if Flash really hated Legacy would he be expected to keep quiet on that front for the sake of PR?
Flash was always the good soldier so there is no way he's going to do something to embarrass or shittalk KeSPA or his team, even indirectly.
He won't say that he "hates it" But maybe something like it just did not fit him or something like that.
On December 02 2015 00:25 epi wrote: Mixed feelings.
As a Flash fan, I'll miss waking up to watch his games. But I can't shake the feeling that this is probably overdue.
It was never about SC2. Anyone who's ever been at the top - and Flash was at the top of BW in a way that none of us are likely to be at the top of anything, ever, in our lives - finds themselves facing the question afterward: what comes next? You have to dig really deep to find the motivation to keep going after you've so thoroughly conquered something, and Flash never really ever found it again, as anyone who watched 2011-12 Flash knows. He held on for one more Proleague championship and one last MSL, but after he got his Golden Badge there was nothing left to go on for and SC2 didn't re-light the fire. Ever since then, that's what we've been watching - the dying embers of perhaps the greatest career e-sports has ever known, next to Boxer's, with the occasional flare-up that keeps us interested and reminds of what once was.
I understand the people excited to see him go back to BW on Afreeca, but I would also be cautious in that respect. It's always possible that going back after such a long absence will re-motivate him, but BW wasn't doing it for him after the Golden Badge and it very well may still not. It was never the game. It was the emotion, the passion - the will to be the greatest and the work ethic to see it through. Watching 2010 Flash, it was impossible not to get the feeling that this was something really, really special. And that's the thing about "special" - it isn't special if it happens often. 2010 Flash had never happened before. It may not happen again for a very long time.
Of course I'd like to see him stream BW again, if only for nostalgia's sake. Flash's peak BW years were good years to be a fan of Starcraft. But more than that, I hope he finds his "next". I hope there's something out there for him to find. That will, that work ethic - it can't have just vanished. It doesn't deserve to die with Flash's Starcraft career. Some of that 2010 magic clung to him for years afterward. Somehow we all sense that the potential for miracles is still there.
On December 02 2015 00:07 Silvana wrote: Well it he goes to BW there's no option for me but to start learning BW... heh I didn't think the Starcraft history lessons would be useful someday
Wow alk that time I thought you were a bw player. So you started with sc2 and became a Flash fan? That's kinda awesome and might I say weird xd I doubt Flash will go to bw tho
My first login after many years - goodbye Flash! I will never forget that MSL finals against Jaedong with the power outage (2010?) - Such a hype and the crowd chanting their names...
On December 02 2015 00:25 epi wrote: Mixed feelings.
As a Flash fan, I'll miss waking up to watch his games. But I can't shake the feeling that this is probably overdue.
It was never about SC2. Anyone who's ever been at the top - and Flash was at the top of BW in a way that none of us are likely to be at the top of anything, ever, in our lives - finds themselves facing the question afterward: what comes next? You have to dig really deep to find the motivation to keep going after you've so thoroughly conquered something, and Flash never really ever found it again, as anyone who watched 2011-12 Flash knows. He held on for one more Proleague championship and one last MSL, but after he got his Golden Badge there was nothing left to go on for and SC2 didn't re-light the fire. Ever since then, that's what we've been watching - the dying embers of perhaps the greatest career e-sports has ever known, next to Boxer's, with the occasional flare-up that keeps us interested and reminds of what once was.
I understand the people excited to see him go back to BW on Afreeca, but I would also be cautious in that respect. It's always possible that going back after such a long absence will re-motivate him, but BW wasn't doing it for him after the Golden Badge and it very well may still not. It was never the game. It was the emotion, the passion - the will to be the greatest and the work ethic to see it through. Watching 2010 Flash, it was impossible not to get the feeling that this was something really, really special. And that's the thing about "special" - it isn't special if it happens often. 2010 Flash had never happened before. It may not happen again for a very long time.
Of course I'd like to see him stream BW again, if only for nostalgia's sake. Flash's peak BW years were good years to be a fan of Starcraft. But more than that, I hope he finds his "next". I hope there's something out there for him to find. That will, that work ethic - it can't have just vanished. It doesn't deserve to die with Flash's Starcraft career. Some of that 2010 magic clung to him for years afterward. Somehow we all sense that the potential for miracles is still there.
I hope to be able to see them.
Wonderful post.
+1
I hope he finds another challenge and never loses enthusiasm!
On December 02 2015 00:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm not all that familiar with how Korea/Kespa runs, but hypothetically if Flash really hated Legacy would he be expected to keep quiet on that front for the sake of PR?
Flash was always the good soldier so there is no way he's going to do something to embarrass or shittalk KeSPA or his team, even indirectly.
I'm just going to wait until he gets super drunk on stream after a long hot night of 14 cc on fighting spirit in preparation for SSL12 where he pulls an effort and goes off on all the horrors he had to deal with
I have not commented in awhile...and have not kept up as much as I probably should be, but seeing Flash moving on hurts a bit. I hope for the best for him.
On December 02 2015 00:14 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm not all that familiar with how Korea/Kespa runs, but hypothetically if Flash really hated Legacy would he be expected to keep quiet on that front for the sake of PR?
Flash was always the good soldier so there is no way he's going to do something to embarrass or shittalk KeSPA or his team, even indirectly.
I'm just going to wait until he gets super drunk on stream agree a long hot night of 14 cc on fighting spirit in preparation for SSL12 where he pulls an effort and goes off on all the horrors he had to deal with
"they made zest undress for the photoshoot instead of me fml"
How lucrative could streaming BW on Afreeca be for him? I'd expect him to at least do a few after his break, unless he's really burned out currently.
Seeing some of the greats and their FPVoDs has been great for ones like me who were unaware of the heyday of professional Brood War, seeing such insane mechanics is awesome.
I'm glad for these guys that have had long eSports careers. It's such an interesting thing to be a part of. Only few can even get a chance to do this with so much support!
Though I wished he didn't retire, i guess every player has their day...gl flash!
Part of me thinks "if only he could have lived up to his hype and BW reputation in SC2" and part of me thinks "it really shows how difficult high level SC2 is that Flash wasn't near the top".
I think most people know I wasn't a huge Flash fan (although sometimes I could be persuaded to root for him) but I really thought he brought a lot to the scene. Seeing other people so excited when he won IEM Toronto actually made me excited (even though I was hoping he would lose haha).
I wish him the best of luck and I hope he really does one day come back and coach for KT!
I'm conflicted if I want to see him back in BW or not. On one hand it will be awesome for the competition there, maybe we will see more epic chapters of Flash vs Bisu. But on the other hand I dont want him to play BW and just retire from professional gaming altogether instead of giving half-honest reasons to step away from SC2 only to be back to BW in 2 weeks like everyone else before him.
Flash played some of the most beautiful, flawless Starcraft I have ever seen. I'll never forget just how unbeatable he looked during his prime, or how insanely exciting it was whenever he and Jaedong would end up in a match together.
gg to the Ultimate Weapon. Thanks for all the memories!
On December 02 2015 01:24 Eliezar wrote: Part of me thinks "if only he could have lived up to his hype and BW reputation in SC2" and part of me thinks "it really shows how difficult high level SC2 is that Flash wasn't near the top".
Nobody will ever forget the Flash face though.
It's not that the game is more difficult. The skillset required to constantly win at the top is slightly different in the two games.
How do you feel about SC2 progamers retiring and returning to BW on Afreeca? Is that something you would consider?
Flash: Hmmm, well, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know about streaming on Afreecatv but I do intend on playing BW again later on. A lot of fans are wanting that from me.
Jaedong, your move. FanTaSy and Stork should follow. BW renaissance~
Fanta is relatively good in sc2 and stork is player coach no? JD i agree with
Goodbye to the Final Boss of multiplayer... man, we will miss his every unique style... hopefully he doesn't change his mind on coming back to train the team... <3
We are strong, let's keep on playing and supporting... FIGHTING!
On December 02 2015 01:26 Tizzou wrote: This sucks! Hoping the best for him.
Now I'll never forget the moment I walked past Flash at MLG Dallas and I was going to ask him for his autograph but didn't have my sharpie
At least I got to see him IRL
Fuck this reminds me that at GPL I had numerous chances at both backstage and player hotel to ask for a photo or autograph but didn't do anything, not knowing that was the very last time anyone seeing him as a pro.
I was never a fan of Flash, I never followed BW. But I respected him for what he did, transitioned from a game he was among the best at and tried hard to become the best at something new. People like him always shine so brightly to me, those that reach the top, fall but who still stands back up and try to go on and accomplish more.
This saddens me, even though I was never a fan of his play I deeply respected him and I will never forget that Flash v PartinG game, I was blown away by how meticulously he had the timing down and outplayed PartinG on the biggest stage. Thats what I will always remember Flash for!
It was during school time's lunch today that I opened teamliquid to check the news like usual, and when I saw the news, as I clicked on it, all that I was able to do was to mutter "no, no" and pray as hard as I can that it was somehow another Flash, not KT_Flash, not Lee Young-Ho, not God, not the last bonjwa. And yet as the page finishes loading, it was indeed KT_Flash. That moment I just... wanted to break down and cry. I know I haven't join the fandom for long, I know when I join the fandom he isn't in his prime anymore, and yet the news hit me so hard...
Flash winning the GOM TV Star invitational back in 2008 was the first starcraft tournament I ever followed. I remember how I used to skip school to watch his games...and now it all comes to an end
If this means Flash is returning to Brood War, even casually, it's all for the better. I've had this account on Teamliquid for over nine years now and the Bonjwa BW players are a big part of that.
On December 02 2015 02:27 marcesr wrote: Wow Im so shaken.
Flash winning the GOM TV Star invitational back in 2008 was the first starcraft tournament I ever followed. I remember how I used to skip school to watch his games...and now it all comes to an end
Never really a Flash fan but every time Flash played you could see the passion from other people and the audience. Sad that we only had so few Flash vs. Jaedong matches. GG and thanks for a great career and hope he stays in e-sports and helps SC2 grow even bigger and better! Edit: Can Blizzard already confirm that next blizzcon Flash will be playing a show match?
arent people supposed to like come out of reitrement for lotv. why does it seem like more ppl are retiring after release?
regardless im sure flash has come to the point where he knows hes got to do his military service eventually and his results were not so great (maybe by flash standard i dunno) so it makes sense. if he does like a BW nostalgia stream for a short period ill definitely watch.
On December 02 2015 03:04 TurboMaN wrote: What? Nooooo! LotV has just been released and he doesn't even try to compete? Is he going back to BW or what is the reason?
No reasons are known so far, everything around are just rumors. We can only speculate.
On December 02 2015 01:12 Wombat_NI wrote: How lucrative could streaming BW on Afreeca be for him? I'd expect him to at least do a few after his break, unless he's really burned out currently.
Seeing some of the greats and their FPVoDs has been great for ones like me who were unaware of the heyday of professional Brood War, seeing such insane mechanics is awesome.
Bisu made $40k off his first day of streaming, and makes a living out of it. Hell, a lot bw players make their living off streaming
What is perplexing me is the timing. I would have understood if he gave up a few months after Lotv release and still had little to no achievement, but now?... When everyone is in the middle of relearning the game?
My regret for him is to have left Bw for Sc2 and to have lost 2 years of huge success on Bw. He never succeeded to perform on sc2 as he did as a god on bw. I really hope he is not disapointed about that decision he took years ago to switch. Also hope he won't regret that decision he is taking now to retire, before to have won a Gsl or a blizzcon.
He was my favorite player of all time. I can't think of a player as impressive as him in broodwar, too bad he coudn't show that dominace in sc2 aswell.
The reason I feel this way is because this guy did dominate the scene, create a large fan base, overall he is a Relic in this time and was a very iconic person. He deserved more than a couple words of pointless content. Please, can we get something more... Fitting for the man.
On December 02 2015 04:43 UR.Solo wrote: The reason I feel this way is because this guy did dominate the scene, create a large fan base, overall he is a Relic in this time and was a very iconic person. He deserved more than a couple words of pointless content. Please, can we get something more... Fitting for the man.
On December 02 2015 04:43 UR.Solo wrote: The reason I feel this way is because this guy did dominate the scene, create a large fan base, overall he is a Relic in this time and was a very iconic person. He deserved more than a couple words of pointless content. Please, can we get something more... Fitting for the man.
Speaking about deservedness, I have no reason to be criticised by you, just for translating some articles.
Though I understand this is a big shocking issue, still it is very discouraging to see this kind of response.
Sorry to see someone big in the scene retire. I've not had much joy or interest in watching him play but I understand the value people place on him. Hopefully he'll still be active.
On December 02 2015 01:12 Wombat_NI wrote: How lucrative could streaming BW on Afreeca be for him? I'd expect him to at least do a few after his break, unless he's really burned out currently.
Seeing some of the greats and their FPVoDs has been great for ones like me who were unaware of the heyday of professional Brood War, seeing such insane mechanics is awesome.
Bisu made $40k off his first day of streaming, and makes a living out of it. Hell, a lot bw players make their living off streaming
40k in one day? I mean come on I knew it was lucrative but that value does seem a little high, even for a god such as Bisu!
I'm mostly curious on how long it will take before he pulls a Bisu and starts streaming/competing in Brood War again, or if he's actually going to relegate himself to coaching.
to be honest, i personally never liked flash as a player (not talking about the person) and i am not sad that he retires. but i wish Lee Young Ho the best future in life that he can have, farewell, flash.
It always feels weird when these legends who's careers didn't go so well in the later parts of it retire. Not sure how to feel. Good luck to you, Flash.
back when I was a esports noob, i played some sc bw with my friends, we sucked, played comp stomp all day and lose lol. I searched on youtube stacraft and videos of flash come up i clicked I watched, jaws were dropped, lead me to the site teamliquid, then I realized I watched vods of a god. When the kespa players were finally transitioning to starcraft 2, it was easily felt that fans wanted flash to ascend to his god status in sc2, he didn't quite make it, but I won't forget that IEM Victory the reset the hype train behind flash again!!
On December 02 2015 06:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: In honour of Flash's retirement, Adobe has announced that they are going to discontinue Flash starting in January.
On December 02 2015 06:26 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: In honour of Flash's retirement, Adobe has announced that they are going to discontinue Flash starting in January.
I wanted Flash to be as dominent in SC2 as in BW really badly, but it just wasnt ment to happen. He definitely had a good SC2 career, I believe he goes down as one of the better SC2 players in korea but whether its cause the games are a bit to different or his motivation not being the same he just never was able to capture a major title. Flash is the reason I got invested into the BW scene, it was like watching Tiger Woods in his prime, complete dominance, Flash was untouchable during his stretch of 6 major finals in a row. I sometimes wonder what would have been if SC2 never got released, or lets say only now got released now, how many more OSL/MSLs would he have had. On the other hand I think its good since a lot of new people to esports got to learn and still see one of the greats play. Had SC2 not come out only a fraction of people would know and love Flash the way I do, so im happy about that. He may not have lived up to the hype in SC2 but when its all said and done he is still the greatest SC player of all time.
Not too surprised given his lack of results in SC2. Always found him to be overrated. I wonder if he's going to play Broodwar like the others before he goes to the army.
Man this sucks, I havent felt this emotional in a long time... I just wished blizzard didnt fuck the korean BW scene over, so that we could have seen more of his brilliant BW plays sad day for E-sports.
I remember watching him first on BW by accident from a KR stream which had awesome gif`s and a irc chat room - back than there was no twitch (sorry I forgot the name), was impressed byhis play something at that time I could not understand. Such a "GoD" retiring , but I hope he stays with SC comunity bee it BW or 2, both would benefit.
Still in the past months nothing from his behaviour showed signs of wanting to retire but I guess he knows best
I think some of the very first Brood War I ever watched was the Flash vs Stork OSL finals, I still remember the game on Katrina. Sad to see him go but doubt he will leave the esports sphere.
Such a sad day, so unexpected. A legend just left the game, the ultimate weapon. Thank you Flash for all the good memories over the last years, in BW and SC2.
Maybe there is a slight chance that he might come back for LotV in 2016 after taking a break in December. Else I hope he starts streaming BW, so I can watch him play again.
Damn it feels like yesterday when I watched him struggle in the early days versus savior and bisu but he persevered and became one of the god terrans. Time to binge watch his greatest brood war matches.
Oh, well, rather unexpected, but time is running. Thank you Flash for making BW one of the best games ever. Thank you for the incredible matches and hope to see you on afreeca
On December 02 2015 10:01 mierin wrote: Oh what the FUCK. No way you get to retire without JD beating you soundly. This is bull shittery of the highest order.
No one in esports has reached the level of dominance that Flash showed from 2009 to 2010. Even in real sports you kind of struggle for examples, there's Roger Federer and Michael Jordan and not too many others. I know he never came anywhere near that level in SC2, but it's still the end of the greatest esports career of all time.
Damn... what? It isn't like he was doing bad either he was a great player. It's like Jangbi retired from sc2 even though he was a fantastic player. Guess the passion really is gone. Wonder if he'll go back to BW?
The first time I ever watched BW after Boxer's loss to OOV was during Jaedong's 2009 era. But at that time, I was rooting against him because I didn't like Zerg. I always thought Flash would be The One, and by God, he certainly was.
Goodbye Little Monster. Goodbye Child Labor Terran. Goodbye Greedy Terran. Goodbye Ultimate Weapon. Goodbye God.
You will always be God to me, Flash. Enjoyed every second of watching you play the past 9 years. Your undying passion and unyielding pursuit of excellence made you more than a hero for so many of us.
PL should change its name effective immediately to the Lee Young Ho Starcraft Proleague.
Pretty insane to think how time goes by. I am completely without words. A legend. Nothing is forever, it's always nice to remember that. GG flash. You'll be deeply missed.
On December 02 2015 11:36 Thrillz wrote: Damn... what? It isn't like he was doing bad either he was a great player. It's like Jangbi retired from sc2 even though he was a fantastic player. Guess the passion really is gone. Wonder if he'll go back to BW?
Didn't Samsung kinda screw Jangbi over and force him out?
On December 02 2015 11:36 Thrillz wrote: Damn... what? It isn't like he was doing bad either he was a great player. It's like Jangbi retired from sc2 even though he was a fantastic player. Guess the passion really is gone. Wonder if he'll go back to BW?
Didn't Samsung kinda screw Jangbi over and force him out?
Pretty much, it may be more along the lines of "rumors" because it's not really official but most likely did happen; reminds me of CJ Effort's rant.
kinda expected, the results were never there in sc2. still, he could've waited a year or so to try lotv
still, thanks for the memories flash, it only could've been better if you defended that proxy gate vs bisu in bw proleague finals to make it 3 in a row :D
On December 02 2015 21:57 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Is it because of the underperformance @ GPL that cause this
He was a progamer for 9 years. He's had way worse moments than GPL. Way worse. He even won the Archon tournament at GPL. No, he wouldn't end his career on a whim like that.
On December 02 2015 22:06 sleepingdog wrote: I know it may sound weird and not very sensitive - but the first thing, that shot through my mind when I read this was:
He has been active for 9 years? Sweet Jesus I'm getting old. I can still remember the days when he was the "newcomer"
same ... damn i am f*cking old.... boah no more flash
Okay, all jokes aside I literally read the recent tech news that Adobe has finally decided to retire Adobe Flash. And now I just read that Flash has retired. Scary coincidence, no?
Oh man, so sad to hear this. We all knew it was coming eventually, just hope he stays in esports. I'll never forget watching, staying up all night and being ass tired for class the next day but it was worth every second! Best of luck Flash!
On December 03 2015 07:36 operwolf wrote: Oh man, so sad to hear this. We all knew it was coming eventually, just hope he stays in esports. I'll never forget watching, staying up all night and being ass tired for class the next day but it was worth every second! Best of luck Flash!
Are you some weird combination of opterown and Wolf?
this is sad but i hope he plays bw. it's going to be really fun and interesting to see him play with bisu, mind, zero, effort, hero, sea and the rest of the ex-pros there.
Just reposting this post I made from the less-viewed thread:
And there he goes. My favorite Starcraft player I've ever watched. Am going to miss him from SC2, despite his general struggles. Obviously he never reached the heights many expected but he still stayed a relatively strong player in the Korean scene all things considered. Just too many heartbreaking incredibly close losses to other great players in Ro32s/Ro16s which probably shook him a bit too much. Still showed flashes of absolute brilliance in SC2 imo, even though he also showed some incredibly poor play and shocking decision making at times as well.
In addition to the so many fantastic BW memories, he did show his character and fight near the end of his SC2 run I thought too. Despite a truly horrible start to this last year's Proleague he bounced back strong for his team I thought. just felt KT in general was a bit misfiring and stuttering, too many critical players dropping in form at bad times.
But remember not long ago in this year's Proleague Playoffs, in the first round against eventual runners-up Jin Air, he put up a fantastic performance despite his team losing on the day (the 2nd leg)... where Flash was brought out first and almost all-killed Jin Air with KT's back against the wall facing elimination. 3 strong victories only to be finally outshone by the brilliant sOs in Game 4, who would continue on to reverse-all-kill the rest of the extremely underwhelming KT. Despite his overall struggles in the game, and too-long significant slumps in form and confidence, he would still time and time again bounce back with strong quite remarkable performances, which to me shows some of his inspiring resilience and fight despite his waning and faltering ability.
Farewell, The Ultimate Weapon, your legacy and impact on the RTS scene will never be forgotten.
And will be interesting to watch where he goes from here. One wonders how successful he could be as a coach... it would be extremely doubtful he would be anywhere as successful as the brilliant iloveoov has been for SKT1, as obviously evidenced this year, who was an absolute revelation, at least for this year. But for KT fans, you would think replicating this transition would be something they would be hoping for, as difficult and doubtful that possibility may seem. Regardless, whatever he chooses to move on to do, I will be following and wish him the best of success.
PS: And one other thing I would like to add. Despite the main page article claiming he fell off significantly after 2013, I would argue that 2014 wasn't that "terrible" of a year for Flash overall despite definitely a long and disappointing slump at a point. Yes he had some tough and disappointing individual league losses (quite a few to outstanding players though). But in Proleague it wasn't all so rough. Quite the opposite really.
His overall Proleague stats for 2014 were not bad at all, finishing with the 4th most number of wins and a respectable 23-16 record! And have people forgotten who was the 2014 Grand Finals MVP securing a critical win for his team (the 2nd map to put KT up 2-0 against the previously dominant SKT1) on the biggest stage against PartinG?
And the image of Flash dropkicking that SKT1 soccer ball into the crowd is easily one of my favorite SC2 memories. Felt like such an epic finals. That, and him winning IEM Toronto of course.
On December 02 2015 11:10 jalstar wrote:Even in real sports you kind of struggle for examples, there's Roger Federer and Michael Jordan and not too many others.
People always forget Sebastien Loeb. Apart from that, sad to see Flash leaves but no one can blame him. The guy has been try harding the last 10 years. He deserves his rest. GL to him in the future !
Only 33 pages? Disappointing! Bisu retired and we get 56 pages and over 1000+ comments when he was terrible at SCII (minus that roro and shine back to back win XD). Having said that, Flash's SCII career hasn't been the greatest from what I recall reading. Though I stopped watching the game several years back, I remember tuning in just in time to see his IEM Toronto games (Ro8 or so and onwards) as well as KT's PL win against SKT where Flash attacked Parting right before he had storms off 3 bases using an SCV pull. A bit funny to think that I managed to catch all his major SCII achievements purely by chance lol.
Not really surprised that he retired though. Flash is a mechanical beast. Anyone who has seen his BW game against type-b would agree with that and being unable to differentiate himself above the rest using pure mechanical must've been rough for the former BW superstar. Other part of it is that he originally became a progamer for his love for BW so it makes me wonder what he felt towards SCII and such. Hard to become the best at a game that may not hold the same feelings as the original.
Though he knows that his future is uncertain, I'm sure that it must've been quite the relief to decide to retire and think about what to do next. Personally, I hope to see him stream on Afreeca before deciding on his next step. Some flash vs Bisu would be amazing to watch and even more so if Jaedong decided to eventually retire (cmon Jaedong, your ASUS ROG victory was enough, come back already! lol). Either way, best of luck to Flash! I'm sure he has quite a lot of things planned out ^^
On December 03 2015 10:39 LessDuEt wrote: A lot of unnecessary worship on this thread...
but GG WP Flash
This is how you identify someone that discovered Starcraft 2010 with the release of WoL.
It's like starting to watch basketball when Michael Jordan was playing in Washing Wizards and then going "unnecessary worship" when he finally retires.
A player who had always had some truly next level hype on his games from his broodwar days but struggled to deliver in SC2, especially in 2014 though he had some success in 2013. Despite his BW fame for mechanical skills players like maru and innovation always seemed a cut above in SC2 marine splitting and multi pronged attacks, so maybe he just got old.
Either way I wish him the absolute best in his aspirations as a coach, he was a true BW legend and I'm glad he still wants to stick with esports for at least a few more years. I hope he does get the coaching job he wants
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
Not much to say at this point but Flash was the best player in the world at the peak of the unpatched BW's skill level. It's sad not that he's leaving, but that no other progamer will ever approach his level of dominance in any comparable scene ever again, as no comparable scene will ever exist.
I didn't see him at BlizzCon so it makes sense I guess, although he's still young for retiring. Never liked his turtle style play in BW but he sure contributed a lot to the game in the era of Bisu/Jaedong.
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S
MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%)
Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games
Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%)
I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
Flash had wrist problems as wel for a while iirc. I also doubt MVP would dominate at all. The kespa transition did bring in a lot of very talented players although not the ones we expected.
Flash dominated a scene with TBLS (not to mention a lot of other sick players)who are in my mind the best rts players to have ever touched rts. MC and Nestea simply don't compare.
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
if you're going to say "Starcraft" meaning SC1 and SC2, these games take different skills. if you want to call the SC2 players the "greatest Starcraft player of all time" when some of the SC1 pros came onto SC2, possibly trying hard to apply Starcraft skills into it with mild success since they don't matter the same in SC2, then I suggest you wait until the best SC2 players prove they can beat the best at SC1 ^
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as one of the greatest Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty player of all time.
I don't know why it's still bothering me that Flash retired, despite not playing nor following BW at all. I read about BW greats when I started SC2, but I didn't try to watch their games (not only Flash but Jaedong etc) except the old stars who switched early such as NaDa, Boxer, WC3 stars Lyn and Moon because I was very active during WoL ; yet the fact that such a great player was still playing sc2 was nice, there was hope that greatness could emerge again, but now there is no hope anymore.
On December 05 2015 08:05 Poopi wrote: I don't know why it's still bothering me that Flash retired, despite not playing nor following BW at all. I read about BW greats when I started SC2, but I didn't try to watch their games (not only Flash but Jaedong etc) except the old stars who switched early such as NaDa, Boxer, WC3 stars Lyn and Moon because I was very active during WoL ; yet the fact that such a great player was still playing sc2 was nice, there was hope that greatness could emerge again, but now there is no hope anymore.
Old players go and new come in. Plus, sc2 was a new and different game and comes to show that the difference between a bonjwa and good player was that small as otherwise flash would've owned everyone. I did not watch BW myself but if flash doesn't like the game, then that's ok and better now than later imho.
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S
MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%)
Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games
Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%)
I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.
It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career.
This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything.
The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments.
The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games.
As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go.
While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so.
It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010.
And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa.
To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration.
MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole.
Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period.
This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S
MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%)
Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games
Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%)
I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.
It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career.
This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything.
The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments.
The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games.
As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go.
While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so.
It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010.
And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa.
To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration.
MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole.
Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period.
This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.
Glad to see there are at least a few people still around who "get it".
For me it is really interesting to see people recalling memories of Flash in his greatest days in BW. I never followed that and so had just a vague idea that this guy was probably really good in it, but I never knew the specific - and yes they are really impressive.
However that doesn't mean anything with respect to SC2 - and that's where I think BW fans have done Flash a huge disservice, because the constant overrating of him in SC2 that resulted from his old fame was really obnoxious. Surely, he was a pretty high-level Korean, better than 99% of players and virtually any foreigner, but still just only a Ro16 material at most - meaning that he was never really even top10. One singular win in a random foreign event doesn't mean anything and everyone knows that well. Yet there were always so many people who presented him through a pair of pink-coloured glasses, overhyping every win and undervaluing every loss. Sadly it was not just fans, but many casters as well. No other player with so few actual SC2 achievements was ever getting so much attention and that was just not very fair in my opinion.
My first reaction to seeing "Flash retired" on the sidebar was thus rather joyful - finally all of this nonsense stops for good and players who are really good in this game will get slightly more spotlight when they deserve it. Looking back on it, I still think it is not a bad thing, but primarily for Flash himself - the longer he waited, the deeper would his BW fame be drowned in a sea of SC2 mediocrity. And learning more about his BW accomplishments makes me sure that he deserves to have and keep this fame.
Comparing "who is the greatest in SC" between BW and SC2 does not make any sense. People who followed BW should argue who was best in BW (as far as I understand, the answer "Flash" is surely not without contention) and we at SC2 have stuchiu to keep as busy arguing among ourselves. Clearly, those two groups of people have a huge overlap, but I think the discussions should be kept separate, mainly because the player pools are just too separate. While MVP's and Flash's primes almost coincided in time, they never faced the same competition and played in completely different ecosystems. I don't really understand how a comparison should be made. The "Starcraft" title on both games is misleading. Nobody is asking "Who is the best in sports with a ball?", right?
I wonder why ppl argue about MVP vs. Flash in this thread.
1. MVP succeeded in SC2 while the game was new and everyone was playing quite worse than now. Flash succeeded at the end of BW where the game was at the highest level against opponents that represented the highest level of play of their respective races.
2. Most of MVP's success in Korea was during GomTvT times and its aftermath where terran was just brutally overpowered. Flash dominated an almost perfectly balanced game.
3. The skill ceiling of BW is alot higher than the one of early WOL. WOL metagame was basically about 5 rax reaper, bitbybit scv + x rush or abusing other mechanics that other players might have not understood 100% yet (or were out of balance). Even if MVP didn't abuse it that much, his opponents had to account for the possibility. It was way easier to abuse these things to your advantage and MVP was good at mindgames (general skill was lower so that ppl. e.g. overreacted more etc.). Flash instead put a new level on top of a highly sophisticated metagame where everybody knew all the tricks already. He pushed the limits. He had to utilize the full spectrum of tools of his race, strategy, mechanics and everything else in order to do so. He set new standards in something that was considered almost perfect already.
Lets make one thing clear. These guys are all extremely good and MVP for sure was an exceptional player. But when a game is new, out of balance and whatever else it doesn't even take half as much to be exceptional than in a scenario where flash was in. There is no valid comparison between those two.
Some of the reasons for why stuchios greatest players of all times list was biased btw.
I dont care if Flash dont win . I just like to see him play. Every game he play I get excited. Even though sometimes is let down I feel sad, but I always feel the same. I wan to see him play .
He is like my reason I watch SC2 . .I just dont noe who to stick after he retire. . . . .
Maybe ForGG if he go proleague . . but . . . ahh why FLASH retire at beginning of LOTV
I said this elsewhere and I'll say it again, I'm not even a fan of Flash's BW skills anymore, I'm just a fan of his person. His insane work ethics disciplined by years of forcing oneself to improve, backed by his bank in BW winnings, will enable him to excel in the future at whatever he chooses to do.
GLHF Flash, I hope you posts updates to your life even if you decide to leave progaming, I'm sure tons of people would be interested.
I don't care much about Mvp vs Flash, since nobody dominated hard WoL anyways (so nobody dominated SC2 the way Flash dominated BW) but stop thinking that Mvp only won when "terran was OP" because terran wasn't OP very long at all in WoL, plus most viewers have no clue about what they see and can't judge balance very well.
Plus Mvp was dominant for a long period of time, early WoL is basically 2010 with FruitDealer winning the first GSL, why the fuck are you talking about 5rax reaper or whatever, this build was nerfed so early in WoL it was almost before launch.
Okay, just have to say this, the only people left I'm looking forward to returning to the fold are Jaedong and Fantasy. The Dong needs to keep the Ultimate Weapon in check, while the Terrorist has to give us the FvF peak TvT that was untimely taken away from everyone.
What is the deal with his drafting though? It says there he was drafted by KTF in 2007, but according to his LP page it was Pantech and he was "traded off to KTF MagicNs shortly after". However, in http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/KeSPA_Rookie_Draft#2007 he was recommended by KTF (Pantech is also listed as FOX, months before the name change). So... what happened?
On December 06 2015 00:18 Poopi wrote: I don't care much about Mvp vs Flash, since nobody dominated hard WoL anyways (so nobody dominated SC2 the way Flash dominated BW) but stop thinking that Mvp only won when "terran was OP" because terran wasn't OP very long at all in WoL, plus most viewers have no clue about what they see and can't judge balance very well.
Plus Mvp was dominant for a long period of time, early WoL is basically 2010 with FruitDealer winning the first GSL, why the fuck are you talking about 5rax reaper or whatever, this build was nerfed so early in WoL it was almost before launch.
This is what is considered as GomTvT. 2010, 2011 & 2012. Some things where nerfed earlier and others later but the aftermath lasted still a bit longer as this graph shows. GomTvT 100% covers the period of time when MVP was successful. As I stated, this is only one thing that substracts some from MVP's success, but not the only thing when comparing it to flash' success. 2011, the most successful year of MVP, was the worst year of GomTvT. 2010 was messy & random as everybody was new and 2012 was the aftermath.
5 out of 6 GSL (including blizzcon) finals MVP participated in 2011 were TvT. MVP did undoubtedly benefit from a substantial racial imbalance. I dare to claim in a balanced scenario MVP would have won only 1/3 - 1/2 of the titles he did win in 2011. Noone could ever reasonably state this about flash. Balance is something that matters when comparing two players like Flash and MVP, not the only thing of course. Other factors go for Flash as well tho.
But hey, he of course was an exceptionally great player. Thats not the question.
Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.
Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.
On December 07 2015 21:31 Iksf wrote: Cmon kespa, give us something for this. Rent out a venue and have a bo9 between flash and JD alternating between BW and SC2 or something.
This would be fantastic, absolutely fantastic if a new RTS comes within that timeline that is a awesome one.
@LSN: race distribution in GSL doesn't represent racial imbalances (small sample size + the fact that it was hard to drop out of code S once you were in and there was enough terrans in it already to stay there for a while) so please stop the random bold claims :x.
On December 07 2015 22:44 Quateras wrote: Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.
Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.
Ah yes, that HSC finals vs Parting. Another nice memory and epic series, even though Flash eventually succumbed in that ever-so-close Game 7 and 3-4 loss.
I see a couple Flash haters coming in here to say "he wasn't that good" and the "hype was annoying" in SC2. Well no shit? If you were never a fan of his in BW, and you don't particularly root for Terran players in SC2 or are a big KT fan, there isn't all that much reason to be a specific fan of his in SC2. But fact is, he won an incredible amount of fans for both his truly incredible BW play and his fierce yet humble character since his rise in [what was it exactly?] 2008. And on through his unparalleled dominance in 2010 on then onwards which had to inspire every Terran player and many fans. The hype shouldn't be surprising... it's there for a reason. And if SC3 came out in a few months, and a player like Life switched over a bit late you'd see the exact same kind of "overhype" and talk. But anyway, back to Flash...
So then he transferred to a new game, a bit late on unfortunately, and sure, too many people would talk too highly about him expecting him soon to "own everyone" and dominate as he did in '10. Which was stupid, but in a way I thought it was mostly light-hearted (the "God is back" jokes etc). Many of us, with the demise of BW, were just happy to see him playing again and giving SC2 a real go. And despite solid runs, and flashes of brilliance, he never reached the heights probably too many people "expected" from him after all the hype and all that. And it became something of a running joke... and eventually I think to him personally a massive burden on his shoulders especially in individual leagues.
Personally I see no shame in being something like a consistent Top 15 - Top 30 player in such a competitive scene. Real question, how many more Terrans have been significantly more impressive than Flash from 2013-2015 that were not named like Innovation or Maru (or Taeja I guess)? Consistently? Serious question. Considering overall body of work. Not that many that truly stood out from the pack IMO. Only players like Dream in spurts who would eventually recess again.
Thing is when you become a true massive a fan of a person, an idea, [a "playstyle"], you hope to see it continue as long as possible... unfortunately Flash proved to be past his peak and a few too many strong BW players who were unable to quite make it in the previous iteration, had picked up SC2 faster and it suited them and their individual skillsets more, and achieved significantly more success in this new game. Who knew sOs would turn out to be such a revelation. And players like herO[join], who smartly switched from BW Zerg to SC2 Protoss, which helped them along with their success. Same with Classic, switched from BW Terran to SC2 Protoss, and look at his relative success. Had Classic stayed Terran would he have had more success in SC2 than even the "underwhelming" Flash?
People can hate on the Flash hype sure, it is understandable in a way, but I would implore them to objectively see Flash for what he stood for and the competitor he is/was, and that there is surely something there to appreciate even if you only know his SC2 story. So what if the "hype" was a bit overblown? Flash had this aura for a reason, he had won it in an earlier era, and deserved it... just like players like Life will have going forward. And a slight tangent, here is another player, in Life, that I can argue is a bit over-hyped in a similar way, one who many seem to think is basically the greatest SC2 player of all time (except way to let down KT in Proleague buddy) and his fanboys are "annoying" but what's the point? I don't quite see things the same way but that's okay. I still massively respect the little fucker for what he's accomplished in individual leagues, and get how he's an inspiration to basically all Zerg players. But at the end of the day I just want to see great Starcraft again with great rivalries and clashes of playstyles between elite players, on the biggest stages... and hope the now-weird LOTV era proves to develop into something decent.
The MVP comparisons are stupid and pointless. Simply not comparable. Ultimately, we just lost a massive icon and this will hurt the game a bit in a way and is pretty sad. Even though pretty much everyone saw this coming sooner rather than later. But of course all good things come to an end eventually, it's just nice to go down memory lane and remember Flash's legacy and what he gave to the game... in both BW and SC2.
Sorry got a bit rambly there, but fuck, it's weird coming to terms seeing such a great competitor like Flash that I personally adored being gone from the game forever. Plenty of other amazing players to follow with great stories as well going forward, it's just Flash's has been extra special to me personally . As I'm sure it has been with quite a few others.
On December 07 2015 22:44 Quateras wrote: Gonna miss watching Flash so much, no other player gave me that nailbiting cheering.Be in in Proleague, IEM or that sick ass Homestory cup finals vs Parting.
Hope he'll be happy in whatever he choses to do next.
Ah yes, that HSC finals vs Parting. Another nice memory and epic series, even though Flash eventually succumbed in that ever-so-close Game 7 and 3-4 loss.
I see a couple Flash haters coming in here to say "he wasn't that good" and the "hype was annoying" in SC2. Well no shit? If you were never a fan of his in BW, and you don't particularly root for Terran players in SC2 or are a big KT fan, there isn't all that much reason to be a specific fan of his in SC2. But fact is, he won an incredible amount of fans for both his truly incredible BW play and his fierce yet humble character since his rise in [what was it exactly?] 2008. And on through his unparalleled dominance in 2010 on then onwards which had to inspire every Terran player and many fans. The hype shouldn't be surprising... it's there for a reason. And if SC3 came out in a few months, and a player like Life switched over a bit late you'd see the exact same kind of "overhype" and talk. But anyway, back to Flash...
So then he transferred to a new game, a bit late on unfortunately, and sure, too many people would talk too highly about him expecting him soon to "own everyone" and dominate as he did in '10. Which was stupid, but in a way I thought it was mostly light-hearted (the "God is back" jokes etc). Many of us, with the demise of BW, were just happy to see him playing again and giving SC2 a real go. And despite solid runs, and flashes of brilliance, he never reached the heights probably too many people "expected" from him after all the hype and all that. And it became something of a running joke... and eventually I think to him personally a massive burden on his shoulders especially in individual leagues.
Personally I see no shame in being something like a consistent Top 15 - Top 30 player in such a competitive scene. Real question, how many more Terrans have been significantly more impressive than Flash from 2013-2015 that were not named like Innovation or Maru (or Taeja I guess)? Consistently? Serious question. Considering overall body of work. Not that many that truly stood out from the pack IMO. Only players like Dream in spurts who would eventually recess again.
Thing is when you become a true massive a fan of a person, an idea, [a "playstyle"], you hope to see it continue as long as possible... unfortunately Flash proved to be past his peak and a few too many strong BW players who were unable to quite make it in the previous iteration, had picked up SC2 faster and it suited them and their individual skillsets more, and achieved significantly more success in this new game. Who knew sOs would turn out to be such a revelation. And players like herO[join], who smartly switched from BW Zerg to SC2 Protoss, which helped them along with their success. Same with Classic, switched from BW Terran to SC2 Protoss, and look at his relative success. Had Classic stayed Terran would he have had more success in SC2 than even the "underwhelming" Flash?
People can hate on the Flash hype sure, it is understandable in a way, but I would implore them to objectively see Flash for what he stood for and the competitor he is/was, and that there is surely something there to appreciate even if you only know his SC2 story. So what if the "hype" was a bit overblown? Flash had this aura for a reason, he had won it in an earlier era, and deserved it... just like players like Life will have going forward. And a slight tangent, here is another player, in Life, that I can argue is a bit over-hyped in a similar way, one who many seem to think is basically the greatest SC2 player of all time (except way to let down KT in Proleague buddy) and his fanboys are "annoying" but what's the point? I don't quite see things the same way but that's okay. I still massively respect the little fucker for what he's accomplished in individual leagues, and get how he's an inspiration to basically all Zerg players. But at the end of the day I just want to see great Starcraft again with great rivalries and clashes of playstyles between elite players, on the biggest stages... and hope the now-weird LOTV era proves to develop into something decent.
The MVP comparisons are stupid and pointless. Simply not comparable. Ultimately, we just lost a massive icon and this will hurt the game a bit in a way and is pretty sad. Even though pretty much everyone saw this coming sooner rather than later. But of course all good things come to an end eventually, it's just nice to go down memory lane and remember Flash's legacy and what he gave to the game... in both BW and SC2.
Sorry got a bit rambly there, but fuck, it's weird coming to terms seeing such a great competitor like Flash that I personally adored being gone from the game forever. Plenty of other amazing players to follow with great stories as well going forward, it's just Flash's has been extra special to me personally . As I'm sure it has been with quite a few others.
wow what a great post. Im still in the face of denial so im just a bit mad Flash decided to give up at such a young age when every other succesful bw pro went over 26 years old. Boxer Nada Stork Reach etc.. and they had the same punishing schedules. Ayways i know that Flah doesnt owe us anything but still he had at least 2 more good years and since his army duty is in 3 years i cant understnad why he didnt give lotv a shot.
On December 09 2015 14:09 prech wrote: Looks like Flash participated in a pretty extensive interview yesterday, any Korean speakers mind translating some tidbits?
If Google Translate serves correctly, something about no plans for the immediate future, with regards to Afreeca and BW
On December 09 2015 14:09 prech wrote: Looks like Flash participated in a pretty extensive interview yesterday, any Korean speakers mind translating some tidbits?
If Google Translate serves correctly, something about no plans for the immediate future, with regards to Afreeca and BW
I haven't been following SC for ages now and just caught up with this. Dam what a moment, the best SC player of all time and the one that got me hooked. All the best in life Flash!
On December 03 2015 16:33 SuperFanBoy wrote: This seals it.. MVP will go down as the greatest Starcraft player of all time.
Indeed, that one map he won.
The biggest argument against MVP being the greatest Starcraft player was that bw was harder than sc2.. and that if bw players switched to sc2 that they would completely dominate the scene and that players like MVP and Life would look average in comparison, boy were they wrong. People also said Flash would dominate sc2 scene, this never happened.
There is no doubt in my mind if MVP didn't have his injuries that he would still be dominating the scene like he was 3 years ago. I also believe that if you were to take MVP in his prime and face him against Flash in his prime that MVP would beat him handily.
MVP's 2011 run is unparalleled.
MVP 2011 (WoL): Winner: 2012 HOT6 Global StarCraft 2 League Season 2: Code S 30 games Winner: 2011 Arena of Legends: Team Ace Invitational 14 games Winner: 2011 WCG Korea Finals 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Oct: Code S 18 games Winner: 2011 Pepsi Global StarCraft 2 League August: Code S 16 games Runner-Up: 2011 LG Cinema 3D GSL Sponsorship League May: Code A 17 games Winner: 2011 Gainward PlayXP.com StarCraft II Tournament 13 games Winner: 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL Sponsorship League January: Code S
MVP 2011-01-01 to 2011-12-31 119-56 (68%) 175 games vT: 64-27 (70.33%) vZ: 31-16 (65.96%) vP: 24-13 (64.86%)
Flash 2010 (BW): Runner-Up: 2010 WCG Korea Finals 10 games Winner: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 13 games Winner: 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 18 games Winner: 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 15 games Runner-Up: 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 1 13 games Runner-Up: 2009-2010 NATE MBCGame StarCraft League 16 games Winner: 2009-2010 EVER OnGameNet Starleague 15 games
Flash 2010-01-01 to 2010-12-31 128-43 (74.85%) 171 games vT: 44-17 (72.13%) vZ: 44-18 (70.97%) vP: 40-8 (83.33%)
I don't see why it would be so "handily", Flash's "in-prime" record is clearly competitive if you look at it by winrate. There were 30+ premier WoL tournaments in 2011, if you only go by GSL events MVP made it to the finals of 5/9; there were only 6-9 BW tournaments in 2010 depending on your definition and flash made it to the finals of 7.
It's amazing that just 5 years later, people are already selling Flash's 2010 short. Same with his overall Starcraft career.
This isn't like the Premier Tournament world where stuff is scattered and moves around and not everyone necessarily attends everything.
The only individual leagues that mattered in 2010 were OSL and MSL. Flash made all 6 finals and won 4. Because of how these leagues are scheduled, the two finals were within 1-2 weeks of each other each time. He was 6 / 6 at making the finals of "Premier" Tournaments. There's no other fair way to present it, because OSL + MSL mattered way more than anything else out of individual leagues, the same way Premier Tournaments matter way more than random other tournaments.
The other thing that really mattered was Proleague, and in fact for many players, Proleague was considered to matter more than individual leagues (Proleague practice would often take precedence, for instance). Flash was the best player in Proleague, and let KT to its first championship in ages after years of being considered "cursed", kind of like the Boston Red Sox were up through 2003. He won the clinching game in the finals. He also led KT to win the Winners League playoffs, almost singlehandedly winning the final against MBC by winning the final 3 games.
As for WCG Korea, the finals don't matter because both players qualify for WCG, and there's no advantage to winning versus second. The WCG 3rd place match is actually what gets broadcast last, because it's the match where the loser doesn't get to go.
While WCG overall didn't matter as much for BW, Flash still won that too, and he had to beat the other two Korean competitors, Jaedong and Kal, in back to back BO3s to do so.
It really was pretty much a perfect year, except for losing two finals. The Proleague performance + Winners League + winning Proleague Finals and breaking a curse + WCG + overall winning % were all gravy. He could've done none of those extra and it still would've been the greatest BW year ever by a mile. The fact that he did so well in OSL / MSL along with all that was considered impossible, even by the biggest dreamers, before 2010.
And, he had this insane year when BW was at its peak skill level in history. SC2 hadn't really started distracting existing players because a transition wasn't in sight yet, the MSL hadn't folded yet, etc. Before 2010 the narrative was that skill levels had gotten so high that there was too much parity for anyone to ever dominate enough to be a bonjwa.
To properly compare someone's year to Flash's 2010, one would have to match / exceed his accomplishments during one of the years of peak skill for SC2. While the Kespa transition didn't dominate as much as some might have expected, multiple top players in SC2 history came from BW / Kespa, so you can't say it was a peak skill time yet. It's kind of like Major League Baseball before black players were allowed - it's not that black players completely dominate the game, but without them, you clearly don't have peak skill either. While it's not MVP's fault or anything, objectively speaking it has to be taken into consideration.
MVP's 2011 was great but I think most objective observers would agree that it's hard to put it above Flash's 2010. Certainly calling it "unparalleled" is just hyperbole.
Also, overall career-wise, it's not like Flash was only great for a couple of years. He was a top player pretty much from his debut in 2007 all the way until BW died in 2012. From 2008 through 2012, he was a top 3 Terran the entire time, and he was clearly the #1 overall (across all three races) player in a few separate chunks of time that add up to about half of that 2008 to 2012 time period.
This isn't about bashing MVP at all. It's just trying to paint a more complete picture of Flash's BW and career, for the people who are wondering why this retirement is such big news.
Nice to see someone remembers.For those who didn't follow BW, Flash was something else. I think the thing that most stood out to me was that he won all the games where he ended up with an advantage (BO advantage or won an early skirmish) and then he won the majority of games where he ended up at a disadvantage too.
I'm sad that he never really picked up SC2 in quite the same way, but I think it's understandable. Flash had achieved his peak in 2009-2010. Had BW continued on for a while, I doubt he would have continued to dominate like he did. Every player has a rise and fall. Flash's fall was hastened by the switch to SC2.
I always wished that Ver would do a "god of the battlefield" type final edit on Flash. I think I recall that he had been working on one, but that was so long ago; I don't imagine we'll ever get to see it.
Can't argue with his 2009-2010 season results (seasons started in September/October and ended in August/September with ~1-1.5 months off inbetween). quoting from an old thread:
On September 11 2010 08:12 revy wrote: From October 1 2009 until today.
Record: 140-41 (77.35%)
TvT 49-14 (77.78%)
TvP 37-8 (82.22%)
TvZ 54-19 (73.97%)
Individual Titles: 4 Gold 2 Silver
Team league Titles: PL Finals Gold WL Finals Gold
ELO Record 2443
Kespa Record 4292.5
Best. Year. Ever.
An Interesting aside....
Jaedong noticeably effected Flash's overall win pct and vZ win pct. Since October 2009 Flash has been 14-8 with JD. Removing these games from the pool Flash was...
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dlxqhAF.jpg)
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