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Played to mastery level 27 and about 4/5ths of that has been playing Abathur on brutal mutator. Thoughts so far:
Devourers are the new undisputed kings of anti air in co-op. 6-8 with the AoE upgrade and some bio mass for HP/Attack Speed/Life Leech will instantly destroy everything in the air and will never die. Even against the scourge/parasitic bomb style zerg AI the scourges die from the AoE before they can reach your units and mend can out heal the DPS of parasitic bomb. The high health pool from bio mass makes for plenty of room for error. Even Zagara's scourges can't compare to this amount of AoE DPS for so little investment.
While guardians aren't nearly as over powered vs ground as devourers are vs air, they also will never die and there for stacking them up with all the left over gas you have seems to be a great strategy.
The swarm hosts are nice, but they don't seem to cut it on mutator mode as they get overwhelmed and wiped out and don't have enough DPS for their cost to be effective against the trains. Swarmhost based strats seem pretty great for any normal brutal map though, as they work great for defense or pushing with the anti air and burrowing teleport upgrades.
Vipers, ravagers, and mutas seem interesting, but guardians, devourers, and swarm hosts are so much much more powerful while simply A moving (or D moving in the case of swarm hosts) that there just doesn't seem much point to using them beyond trying to make things harder for variety's sake.
TLDR: IMO the best composition so far is just enough devourers to dominate the sky then spend the rest of your gas on guardians and dump left over minerals on roaches
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On May 21 2016 00:35 imJealous wrote:
Played to mastery level 27 and about 4/5ths of that has been playing Abathur on brutal mutator. Thoughts so far:
Devourers are the new undisputed kings of anti air in co-op. 6-8 with the AoE upgrade and some bio mass for HP/Attack Speed/Life Leech will instantly destroy everything in the air and will never die. Even against the scourge/parasitic bomb style zerg AI the scourges die from the AoE before they can reach your units and mend can out heal the DPS of parasitic bomb. The high health pool from bio mass makes for plenty of room for error. Even Zagara's scourges can't compare to this amount of AoE DPS for so little investment.
While guardians aren't nearly as over powered vs ground as devourers are vs air, they also will never die and there for stacking them up with all the left over gas you have seems to be a great strategy.
The swarm hosts are nice, but they don't seem to cut it on mutator mode as they get overwhelmed and wiped out and don't have enough DPS for their cost to be effective against the trains. Swarmhost based strats seem pretty great for any normal brutal map though, as they work great for defense or pushing with the anti air and burrowing teleport upgrades.
Vipers, ravagers, and mutas seem interesting, but guardians, devourers, and swarm hosts are so much much more powerful while simply A moving (or D moving in the case of swarm hosts) that there just doesn't seem much point to using them beyond trying to make things harder for variety's sake.
TLDR: IMO the best composition so far is just enough devourers to dominate the sky then spend the rest of your gas on guardians and dump left over minerals on roaches
What is your early game build for brutal mutator?
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United States8477 Posts
I have to disagree with the OP on this
At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Zagara/Raynor >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax
- Vorazun is still in a league of her own. Even after all the nerfs she's clearly the best commander.
- Karax is not near the worst commander. In fact, I would rate him near the best commander for all the missions with defensive elements, specifically Lock and Load, Void Launch, Temple of the Past, and Oblivion Express.These all happen to be the hardest missions. Where he "struggles" is on the offensive missions, which happen to be the easier missions. He's one of the only commanders that can lose these missions if your ally is extremely bad.
- Zagara is great but getting worse and worse with each patch, which gradually makes the game harder.
- Raynor is just solid all around.
- Swann and Artanis are probably the two best support Commanders, but sometimes struggle individually. Swann tends to struggle early game more than any other commander and Artansis' power level with his units is just weaker.
- Abathur is a fairly clear #2 to Vorazun at the moment. He probably has the strongest possible army you can get in co-op. His only real glaring weakness is that he tends to struggle early game and relies on snowballing. He also isn't particularly strong mid-game compared to other commanders. However, this applies only to brutal and not the mutations. He tends to struggle a lot more on mutations since he'll have a hard time starting up.
It's hard to rank each commander to be honest, but I'd do something like:
- Vorazun
- Abathur, Karax on certain missions, Zagara on certain missions, Artanis with a good ally, Swann with a good ally
- Raynor
- Kerrigan
- Zagara on certain other missions
- Artanis without a good ally
- Swann without a good ally
- Karax on certain other missions
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im pretty sure youre misunderstanding the Viper, in my opinion its the most broken unit in coop if you micro it correctly. Blinding cloud and abduct are basically free kills on anything, and they never run out of energy.
Perhaps youre not able to invest the APM into them to see their potential - but its definitely there.
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monk, do you just use the hilarious strategy of DT + Corsair, like in the last mission for the campaign?
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On May 21 2016 02:00 monk wrote:I have to disagree with the OP on this At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Zagara/Raynor >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax- Vorazun is still in a league of her own. Even after all the nerfs she's clearly the best commander.
- Karax is not near the worst commander. In fact, I would rate him near the best commander for all the missions with defensive elements, specifically Lock and Load, Void Launch, Temple of the Past, and Oblivion Express.These all happen to be the hardest missions. Where he "struggles" is on the offensive missions, which happen to be the easier missions. He's one of the only commanders that can lose these missions if your ally is extremely bad.
- Zagara is great but getting worse and worse with each patch, which gradually makes the game harder.
- Raynor is just solid all around.
- Swann and Artanis are probably the two best support Commanders, but sometimes struggle individually. Swann tends to struggle early game more than any other commander and Artansis' power level with his units is just weaker.
- Abathur is a fairly clear #2 to Vorazun at the moment. He probably has the strongest possible army you can get in co-op. His only real glaring weakness is that he tends to struggle early game and relies on snowballing. He also isn't particularly strong mid-game compared to other commanders.
It's hard to rank each commander to be honest, but I'd do something like: - Vorazun
- Abathur, Karax on certain missions, Zagara on certain missions, Artanis wit a good ally, Swann with a good ally
- Raynor
- Kerrigan
- Zagara on certain other missions
- Artanis without a good ally
- Swann without a good ally
- Karax on certain other missions
People seem to rate the commanders by their pure army vs army strength - but to be honest, ive been able to carry games with any commander and an awful ally- especially if I "try hard" and go for the best composition.
Brutal isnt very brutal, im sure i could add another one possibly 2 difficulties before i lose games consistantly with a competent ally.
A key factor for me is mobility. Sure abathur has great army strength - but youre not facing armies in a dungeonlike corridor. If you kill armies near their spawn - it will allow you for a lot of time to macro properly and prepare for the next wave, it also gives you a buffer in case you fail sometime.
I tend to disagree on artanis. His lvl 15 ability is beyond amazing - Saving you about 20-21 pylons per game (free 2100 minerals) - and once his mastery kicks in (that gives units a buff when they warp in from warp field) he quickly becomes one of the most mobile commanders next to raynor.
Especially if you warp in mainly zealot / Templar - which does well vs most compositions. Battlecruisers have troubles with feedback.
This puts kerrigan near the top as well ( the - armor zergling upgradeis bugged right now) - Making 3 nydus networks allows for constant throwing down of nydus worms for free - she loads and unloads instantly - kerrigan turns into a presence on the whole map. Her mastery also does wonders, Asimilation aura duration and kerrigans attack damage - that cleaves and life leeches.
Raynors ability to warp in, even through fog of war makes 16 reactors - 3 tech lab - marine medic - fueled by 8-10 orbitals very viable. Its very easy to add in 150 supply within 30 seconds, and his ability to reinforce a push is crazy. Ive had some of the strongest clears with raynor.
Vorazun
Dts and voidrays are imbalanced - sure, but if youre making DTs - since you only want to make one set of upgrades - corsair DT is very inefficient - and stalkers suck - so youre left with no Anti air (which is terrible if your ally doesnt cover for you.) Sure - black hole could be considered OP, but i actually feel like the hidden gem is the dark pylons recall.
After I won a map with the locks - before they hit 30% with dark pylons - i realised the power of the pylon.
Karax and swann do what theyre supposed to. Defend places - one of the downsides is that both of them have fairly weak lvl 15 abilities and masteries.
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Are the free pylons really a big factor, though? With normal saturation (ie, not having a million OCs) I've never come close to mining out, and those 20~21 pylons tend to be made over the course of a long match anyway, instead of immediately.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 21 2016 02:00 weikor wrote:
im pretty sure youre misunderstanding the Viper, in my opinion its the most broken unit in coop if you micro it correctly. Blinding cloud and abduct are basically free kills on anything, and they never run out of energy.
Perhaps youre not able to invest the APM into them to see their potential - but its definitely there.
Who is this in response to?
On May 21 2016 02:11 IntoTheheart wrote:
monk, do you just use the hilarious strategy of DT + Corsair, like in the last mission for the campaign?
Yes, this is pretty imbalanced. Adding Void Rays as well sometimes.
On May 21 2016 02:18 weikor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:00 monk wrote:I have to disagree with the OP on this At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Zagara/Raynor >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax- Vorazun is still in a league of her own. Even after all the nerfs she's clearly the best commander.
- Karax is not near the worst commander. In fact, I would rate him near the best commander for all the missions with defensive elements, specifically Lock and Load, Void Launch, Temple of the Past, and Oblivion Express.These all happen to be the hardest missions. Where he "struggles" is on the offensive missions, which happen to be the easier missions. He's one of the only commanders that can lose these missions if your ally is extremely bad.
- Zagara is great but getting worse and worse with each patch, which gradually makes the game harder.
- Raynor is just solid all around.
- Swann and Artanis are probably the two best support Commanders, but sometimes struggle individually. Swann tends to struggle early game more than any other commander and Artansis' power level with his units is just weaker.
- Abathur is a fairly clear #2 to Vorazun at the moment. He probably has the strongest possible army you can get in co-op. His only real glaring weakness is that he tends to struggle early game and relies on snowballing. He also isn't particularly strong mid-game compared to other commanders.
It's hard to rank each commander to be honest, but I'd do something like: - Vorazun
- Abathur, Karax on certain missions, Zagara on certain missions, Artanis wit a good ally, Swann with a good ally
- Raynor
- Kerrigan
- Zagara on certain other missions
- Artanis without a good ally
- Swann without a good ally
- Karax on certain other missions
People seem to rate the commanders by their pure army vs army strength - but to be honest, ive been able to carry games with any commander and an awful ally- especially if I "try hard" and go for the best composition. Brutal isnt very brutal, im sure i could add another one possibly 2 difficulties before i lose games consistantly with a competent ally. A key factor for me is mobility. Sure abathur has great army strength - but youre not facing armies in a dungeonlike corridor. If you kill armies near their spawn - it will allow you for a lot of time to macro properly and prepare for the next wave, it also gives you a buffer in case you fail sometime. I tend to disagree on artanis. His lvl 15 ability is beyond amazing - Saving you about 20-21 pylons per game (free 2100 minerals) - and once his mastery kicks in (that gives units a buff when they warp in from warp field) he quickly becomes one of the most mobile commanders next to raynor. Especially if you warp in mainly zealot / Templar - which does well vs most compositions. Battlecruisers have troubles with feedback. This puts kerrigan near the top as well ( the - armor zergling upgradeis bugged right now) - Making 3 nydus networks allows for constant throwing down of nydus worms for free - she loads and unloads instantly - kerrigan turns into a presence on the whole map. Her mastery also does wonders, Asimilation aura duration and kerrigans attack damage - that cleaves and life leeches. Raynors ability to warp in, even through fog of war makes 16 reactors - 3 tech lab - marine medic - fueled by 8-10 orbitals very viable. Its very easy to add in 150 supply within 30 seconds, and his ability to reinforce a push is crazy. Ive had some of the strongest clears with raynor. VorazunDts and voidrays are imbalanced - sure, but if youre making DTs - since you only want to make one set of upgrades - corsair DT is very inefficient - and stalkers suck - so youre left with no Anti air (which is terrible if your ally doesnt cover for you.) Sure - black hole could be considered OP, but i actually feel like the hidden gem is the dark pylons recall. After I won a map with the locks - before they hit 30% with dark pylons - i realised the power of the pylon. Karax and swann do what theyre supposed to. Defend places - one of the downsides is that both of them have fairly weak lvl 15 abilities and masteries.
It's hard to get a sense of what you disagree with if you don't rank the commanders yourself. Also, Cosairs handle early rounds of air completely fine. I never have problems with Vorazun with air, ground, or mobility.
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On May 21 2016 01:35 Zedd wrote:
What is your early game build for brutal mutator?
Crawler expand, spam roaches while trying to get 1-3 brutalisks, tech to guardians or devourers asap (enemy unit comp determines which i get first). Usually end up having to let one of the trains escape on the first double train wave unless my partner is a really good Raynor or Vorazun (never seem to get matched with a Karax or Kerrigan :/ ). Not sure I have the best opening to be honest... still trying to figure it out and see what other people have come up with.
Specifically I go lair @100 gas, usually only spending other gas on roach speed and +1 ranged attack
Infestation pit as soon as lair is done, +2 ranged attack
Spire and Hive as soon as infestation pit is done
Greater Spire and start some Mutas soon as hive is done
Build guardians or devourers based on the situation.
On May 21 2016 02:00 weikor wrote:
im pretty sure youre misunderstanding the Viper, in my opinion its the most broken unit in coop if you micro it correctly. Blinding cloud and abduct are basically free kills on anything, and they never run out of energy.
Perhaps youre not able to invest the APM into them to see their potential - but its definitely there.
Sure, I definitely haven't explored their full potential. But devourers literally wipe everything out of the air with 0 APM required so I don't see any reason to bother other than just to experiment for fun.
On May 21 2016 02:00 monk wrote:It's hard to rank each commander to be honest, but I'd do something like: - Vorazun
- Abathur, Karax on certain missions, Zagara on certain missions, Artanis with a good ally, Swann with a good ally
- Raynor
- Kerrigan
- Zagara on certain other missions
- Artanis without a good ally
- Swann without a good ally
- Karax on certain other missions
This is pretty much my thoughts as well, though I'd say Zagara is still number 2 in every single map except the mutator where sheer number of units out paces her mana and free banelings from the nest.
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On May 21 2016 02:00 monk wrote:I have to disagree with the OP on this At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Zagara/Raynor >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax- Vorazun is still in a league of her own. Even after all the nerfs she's clearly the best commander.
- Karax is not near the worst commander. In fact, I would rate him near the best commander for all the missions with defensive elements, specifically Lock and Load, Void Launch, Temple of the Past, and Oblivion Express.These all happen to be the hardest missions. Where he "struggles" is on the offensive missions, which happen to be the easier missions. He's one of the only commanders that can lose these missions if your ally is extremely bad.
I would just like to point out the line just below the one you quoted in the OP has the good taste of tacking entirely your second point :
I mostly rate the commanders on their ability to carry the game at low level (3~8) and high level (15) if your partner cannot hold his/her own. The only exception is that Karax can be tied for #1 on defense maps at level 15
Regarding the first point, it comes from my experience. Brutal used to be trivial, and I mainly played to do the following things :
- Speedrun Void Trashing and Rifts of Korhal : Vorazun takes a bit longer than Zagara/Raynor to hit her top form
- Clear all the map on Void Launch : same thing
She is the most solid commander, the one where you can relax and win easily, but she is contested by other faster commanders when you want to press things beyond just winning the map
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I see Swann is still incredibly underappreciated.
He gets flak for his early game. But you can easily have 2 tanks and a herc before any second wave. And 2 tanks + herc with micro can take out any second wave on its own. Even if the enemy comp is air (air on a second wave is usually just 1 or 2 air units, which can be handled by the laser drill, and then you catch on and rush goliaths before the third wave).
Hercs and tanks are the best mobile anti-ground in the game. I put it above Vorazun's DTs, Kerrigan's lurkers, and Zagara's banelings. It's so ridiculous. With 10+ tanks, just about every mid-game ground wave will melt as soon as they come into your vision. Same for 16+ tanks and late game ground waves. And it's more mobile than either Vorazun's DTs. (Hercs can jump anywhere, as opposed to the DTs which are only limited to wherever dark pylons are placed.) He only doesn't have the best anti-air, but goliaths are more than good enough for any air army. I feel like I would put him in the "OP" category even if he didn't have the laser drill attacks (the strongest abilities in the game). I always get those researches, but most games I only use them as a formality, I never have to use them for emergency (except in lock & load).
I'm also heavily on the pro-viper side. They're just stupid godlike. You can use them to push into the most dangerous positions and lose nothing, when without them you would have lost your whole army. Blinding cloud is just so stupid strong. I'm sold on abduct now. Parasitic bomb... well, I admit it's not as strong as devourers. But if I had to choose my gas spending between devourers and vipers, I'd go vipers hands down. Because I have the anti air of Pbomb and the incredibly OP disabling cloud.
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On May 21 2016 04:17 The Bottle wrote:
I see Swann is still incredibly underappreciated.
He gets flak for his early game. But you can easily have 2 tanks and a herc before any second wave. And 2 tanks + herc with micro can take out any second wave on its own. Even if the enemy comp is air (air on a second wave is usually just 1 or 2 air units, which can be handled by the laser drill, and then you catch on and rush goliaths before the third wave).
Hercs and tanks are the best mobile anti-ground in the game. I put it above Vorazun's DTs, Kerrigan's lurkers, and Zagara's banelings. It's so ridiculous. With 10+ tanks, just about every mid-game ground wave will melt as soon as they come into your vision. Same for 16+ tanks and late game ground waves. And it's more mobile than either Vorazun's DTs. (Hercs can jump anywhere, as opposed to the DTs which are only limited to wherever dark pylons are placed.) He only doesn't have the best anti-air, but goliaths are more than good enough for any air army. I feel like I would put him in the "OP" category even if he didn't have the laser drill attacks (the strongest abilities in the game). I always get those researches, but most games I only use them as a formality, I never have to use them for emergency (except in lock & load).
The main issue I have with Swann is that he feels "fair". You babysit your 3 units early game, micro your Hercs a lot, drop your ARES to deal with problems, etc...
Vorazun stupidly strong DT-corsair combo can be 1A-ed and yield the same results, probably with fewer losses. Kerrigan can solo the first 10 minutes of the game. Zagara is maxed out when you are around 50 supply. Abathur has a 1500 HP brutalisk when you have your 4th tank.
Yes, he has one of the strongest late game armies, but the path to get there is much more tricky than Vorazun/Abathur. Yes, he can handle the early game through good micro but he will rarely be the driving force which kills the first train on the mutator mission.
To sum up, all heroes are good. Some are just trivial (Vorazun) it's more easy to make mistakes as Swann
Edit : Artanis is another "fair" hero. He is just as slow, but his late game army is a bit worse.
Edit 2 : Regarding your opinion on Kerrigan, I mostly agree. I do the same thing (queens) but on the mutator map, I feel that static defense are a better mineral dump to act as a buffer for the lurkers. Otherwise, it's my go to strategy for other maps
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On May 21 2016 04:17 The Bottle wrote:
I'm also heavily on the pro-viper side. They're just stupid godlike. You can use them to push into the most dangerous positions and lose nothing, when without them you would have lost your whole army. Blinding cloud is just so stupid strong. I'm sold on abduct now. Parasitic bomb... well, I admit it's not as strong as devourers. But if I had to choose my gas spending between devourers and vipers, I'd go vipers hands down. Because I have the anti air of Pbomb and the incredibly OP disabling cloud.
You only need 4-6 all game long too, and can get all of them to 100 biomass if you try. Virtually unkillable.
On May 21 2016 04:27 fezvez wrote:
Edit : Artanis is another "fair" hero. He is just as slow, but his late game army is a bit worse.
Artanis runs into the same problem as Abathur imo, in that his army just doesn't die. I usually go HT/Zealot and transition into Immortals and Reavers as my Zealots die, but most of the time I just end up with 30 Zealots that I can't get rid of.
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...some of these achievements...
Right before they announced the new Coop content I was in the mood to grind out some achievements, I'm really glad they added in mastery levels or else I would'nt have gotten far because of boredom. I hit lvl 35 before finally getting Swanns gas collecting one.
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I randomly met a friend while I was queuing brutal for the first time in a long time. I somehow managed to get by fine so uh yeah.
How are your computer performances on lock and load? I find that mission hits my computer the hardest while the others hit harder by the end. I'm talking of the mission where you have to control points.
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Haven't had any issues with it. That's going to be the next Mutator map too so hopefully you can get it working fine.
As for the current mission, I must say that after messing around with different commanders on the mutation map on brutal with imJealous on Karax, Swann was by far the best for a weaker player like myself. You can just mass the 2 turret types by each ramp and the trains and attack waves melt. Having some tanks behind them helps quite a bit too. Karax is so damn powerful in that center area, but having to expand and run upgrades and observers for nukes, energizers to warp, babysitting the towers with orbitals, it's best in the hands of a strong player.
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Well I played around a bit with Abathur's air and I have to say I'm sold on Devourers. They trivialize most air and you only need to make 4-6 and pump them full of biomass. I can't say the same about Guardians. I'm fairly sure they lose DPS upgrading from Mutalisks by losing the 6x bounce and 2x damage vs armored. Their only advantage is range, and that's not much of a problem when your units can take as much of a beating as Abathur's can. Plus Mutalisks get rapid regeneration and Guardians don't.
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After trying to do this week mutation many times, I hope next week won't be as bad. Lowering graphics to lowest helps slightly for the start then it's choppy with constant 1 FPS toward mid to end-game. Serrod, there isn't much I can do because my computer is pretty bad.
I don't know what exactly I did wrong but it was hard as hell as Karax. I had a hard time having ressources for upgrades and cannons. Ultimately, it was when I got allied with a Kerrigan that I had an easier time because she can solo the early-game by herself. I had to focus on only 1 lane because of how limited I was of ressources.
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United States8477 Posts
Some more suggestions for the OP:
Abomination should be Aberration.
Add level 15 builds. Many are vastly different from level 3 builds.
Kerrigan's suggested build is inefficient imo. I found that the best build involves getting a macro hatch at your natural while pumping nothing but drones. Then Kerrigan can break down the rocks herself.
Karax does better with 2 cannons clearing the rocks imo.
I like Corsair/DT to open up for Vorazun as I feel it's slightly more solid early on. Voidray opening is ok but more prone to crazy shit happening.
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Any guides to putting your masterys the best for brutal mutations and/or combos? :-)
So far i've been doing it as karax with mass cannons and artanis (i think :D) with tempest but it still is super hard .. only managed to win 2/12 brutal mutations
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong.
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EPT
