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On May 21 2016 20:07 Juice! wrote:
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong. It might be the easiest and strongest way.
My opening build for Vorazun on current mutation:
(in masteries +18 starting and max energy, without it first pylon will be sooner)
- constant probes (up to 15+21 probes)
- dark pylon when supply needed, the second and later pylons normal, save energy for 2 DT squads
- 4-6 assimilators. I take gasses at partners natural and let him kill it when he need it.
- as soon as possible: gateway-core, forge-twilight-shrine-"a lot of slashes skill for DTS" (chronoboost)
- 2 more gateways when DT shrine goes down
- send a probe to natural at ~50 energy
- at ~60 energy summon DTs, clear both rocks and first attack
- nexus asap
- make cannon in your main (preferably behind building wall)
- for first train you will have about 3 DTS when the train is between bases. With another elite DT squand you will be able to kill the train easily
- +1 ground attack (could be sooner) (and chronoboost)
- finish probing about when train dies
- another 3 gateways at natural ramp (to total 6), few cannons behind them later and dark pylon later to cloak everything
- from there depending on enemy composition -> more dts, blink. I usually get 2-3 stargates at ~ 20 DTs and start chronoboosting +1 air weapons
It's pretty easy. You can win as long as the ally is at least competent enough to defend the main high ground.
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On May 21 2016 20:07 Juice! wrote:
Any guides to putting your masterys the best for brutal mutations and/or combos? :-)
So far i've been doing it as karax with mass cannons and artanis (i think :D) with tempest but it still is super hard .. only managed to win 2/12 brutal mutations
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong.
Masteries isn't your problem. You're going mass tempests in the brutal mutation? How are you dealing with the zombies? Artanis' cannons can't really take them midgame, and tempests are absolutely horrible for taking them. They have big slow shots, most of which will be wasted on the zombies while more important things need to be hit. I had an Artanis ally going mass tempests while I was kerrigan on the mutation and I had to completely carry because his build (predictably) did absolutely nothing.
I haven't tried Artanis on the mutation, but if I did, I would absolutely be getting reavers and/or archons. A few of those units stationed at one spot with some whirlwind zealots should be able to take any number of zombies. You probably want the guardian shell mastery so that they could last longer too. You could probably pick between reavers or archons based on the enemy's composition (if it's protoss air it might be a little rough with the carriers, but zerg air should be easily taken care of with storms, and terran air's biggest units can be hit with feedback).
I did one with Karax, but I had a tough time. The strat is pretty straightforward, you just have to be really on top of things. You should dump all into the building health mastery, rather than cheaper unit for that one. Although there may be an army way to go about it that I haven't tried, I guess that might be worth trying.
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Anyone interested in grinding some Brutal mutators this weekend on Karax (or whatever Commander you can smash the units with) while I use Swann to throw down some tanks and turrets to kill the trains after your buildings/spear kill the units? I'd like to grind out a nice chunk with a consistent partner between today and Monday afternoon since my play time will be limited after that. I haven't had much luck in random co-op and have only beat it once with a good Karax, but I'd love to have a consistent partner/grinder to knock out some of the '150 brutal Mutator' achievements. PM me if so, I'll be available most of the weekend.
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On May 21 2016 23:53 The Bottle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 20:07 Juice! wrote:
Any guides to putting your masterys the best for brutal mutations and/or combos? :-)
So far i've been doing it as karax with mass cannons and artanis (i think :D) with tempest but it still is super hard .. only managed to win 2/12 brutal mutations
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong. Masteries isn't your problem. You're going mass tempests in the brutal mutation? How are you dealing with the zombies? Artanis' cannons can't really take them midgame, and tempests are absolutely horrible for taking them. They have big slow shots, most of which will be wasted on the zombies while more important things need to be hit. I had an Artanis ally going mass tempests while I was kerrigan on the mutation and I had to completely carry because his build (predictably) did absolutely nothing. I haven't tried Artanis on the mutation, but if I did, I would absolutely be getting reavers and/or archons. A few of those units stationed at one spot with some whirlwind zealots should be able to take any number of zombies. You probably want the guardian shell mastery so that they could last longer too. You could probably pick between reavers or archons based on the enemy's composition (if it's protoss air it might be a little rough with the carriers, but zerg air should be easily taken care of with storms, and terran air's biggest units can be hit with feedback). I did one with Karax, but I had a tough time. The strat is pretty straightforward, you just have to be really on top of things. You should dump all into the building health mastery, rather than cheaper unit for that one. Although there may be an army way to go about it that I haven't tried, I guess that might be worth trying.
I just massed a lot of cannons as karax .. my ally went mass tempest and it worked twice in a row, we only lost against protoss. After that he had to leave and other (random) co-op commanders wern't even close to being good (i think they were hoping to be carried).
Still hoping for some nice insight from people who are consintently (if there are any ofcourse) beating it to help me ... The achievement whore inside of me is in agony that I can't clear this ... (Well it's even more in agony because that other bounty achievement will take 25 weeks to complete if you do a brutal one every week  )
If you have any insight or want to help me: Charmander#734 (EU)
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On May 21 2016 22:04 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 20:07 Juice! wrote:
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong. It might be the easiest and strongest way. My opening build for Vorazun on current mutation: (in masteries +18 starting and max energy, without it first pylon will be sooner) - constant probes (up to 15+21 probes) - dark pylon when supply needed, the second and later pylons normal, save energy for 2 DT squads - 4-6 assimilators. I take gasses at partners natural and let him kill it when he need it. - as soon as possible: gateway-core, forge-twilight-shrine- "a lot of slashes skill for DTS" (chronoboost) - 2 more gateways when DT shrine goes down - send a probe to natural at ~50 energy - at ~60 energy summon DTs, clear both rocks and first attack - nexus asap - make cannon in your main (preferably behind building wall) - for first train you will have about 3 DTS when the train is between bases. With another elite DT squand you will be able to kill the train easily - +1 ground attack (could be sooner) (and chronoboost) - finish probing about when train dies - another 3 gateways at natural ramp (to total 6), few cannons behind them later and dark pylon later to cloak everything - from there depending on enemy composition -> more dts, blink. I usually get 2-3 stargates at ~ 20 DTs and start chronoboosting +1 air weapons It's pretty easy. You can win as long as the ally is at least competent enough to defend the main high ground.
I just did this and my ally was swann ... went pretty smooth! Thank you !!
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On May 21 2016 23:53 The Bottle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 20:07 Juice! wrote:
Any guides to putting your masterys the best for brutal mutations and/or combos? :-)
So far i've been doing it as karax with mass cannons and artanis (i think :D) with tempest but it still is super hard .. only managed to win 2/12 brutal mutations
Might go the try dt/corsair vorazun as you say it's very strong. Masteries isn't your problem. You're going mass tempests in the brutal mutation? How are you dealing with the zombies? Artanis' cannons can't really take them midgame, and tempests are absolutely horrible for taking them. They have big slow shots, most of which will be wasted on the zombies while more important things need to be hit. I had an Artanis ally going mass tempests while I was kerrigan on the mutation and I had to completely carry because his build (predictably) did absolutely nothing. I haven't tried Artanis on the mutation, but if I did, I would absolutely be getting reavers and/or archons. A few of those units stationed at one spot with some whirlwind zealots should be able to take any number of zombies. You probably want the guardian shell mastery so that they could last longer too. You could probably pick between reavers or archons based on the enemy's composition (if it's protoss air it might be a little rough with the carriers, but zerg air should be easily taken care of with storms, and terran air's biggest units can be hit with feedback). I did one with Karax, but I had a tough time. The strat is pretty straightforward, you just have to be really on top of things. You should dump all into the building health mastery, rather than cheaper unit for that one. Although there may be an army way to go about it that I haven't tried, I guess that might be worth trying.
I beat it as Artanis going mass tempests with no problems. Whirlwind zealots should always be your mineral dump if you are playing mass temptests anyway... they counter everything tempests don't and give you something to spend your left over minerals on. They worked fine on mutator for cleaving through the infested trash, though you have a lot less downtime between combats than you do in standard brutal maps so you have to stay on top of your warp ins.
Personally I lost when I tried to play zealot/archon. The archons died too often and I didn't have enough gas to sustain a critical mass. But then again I have very little experience playing this style, so someone who plays it more may have better mileage.
I figured reavers would be poor on this map, as they really rely on downtime between combat to build up their ammo supply. The constant combat in this mutator would mean each reaver is constantly waiting to rebuild a scarab between each shot, meaning they are working an their lowest damage output at most times.
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United States8477 Posts
After playing this mutator with all the commanders a few times, I've come to the conclusion of the following rankings:
1. Vorazun: Just plain OP as always.
2. Kerrigan: Lurkers are insane on this map. Kerrigan can carry until Lurkers arrive.
3. Raynor: Either Bio or Mech works here.
4. Swann: Has a slow start but his Static D is very good, his late game is very good, and his allies appreciate him a lot on this map as most good AoE options are gas-intensive. He just relies on his ally more than other commanders in the early game.
5. Karax: Static defense is pretty strong here
6. Abathur: I find Abathur has more of a slow start here compared to other maps and he can't snowball as easily.
6. Artanis: Immortal/Dragon/Reaver can do well here, but you'll need constantly good macro and a good build as well as some support from your ally.
7. Zagara: Banelings don't keep up that well with other options. You actually want Abberations and Corruptrs as Zagara compared to other Commanders.
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On May 22 2016 03:50 Juice! wrote:
I just did this and my ally was swann ... went pretty smooth! Thank you !! Glad to help. Vorazun is the only one OP enough to get consitent wins with random partner. People expanding at 20 minute, not knowing about orbitals etc. They would lose on hard.
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By the way, looking at the achievements, I have 8 mutation bounty rewards. Is that a bug? You should only be able to get 4 until the second mutation, right? I noticed that when I beat the mutation with Kerrigan (the second commander I beat it with) I got the big EXP reward again. I thought maybe doing it with a new commander gives you the exp reward again, but I beat it with other commanders after and it didn't take. Then I just noticed this 8 bounty thing.
On a totally unrelated note, I love getting told by Abathur that I'm a low APM scrub. "Many toxic nests available. Must use."
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I also have 8 mutation bounty rewards, and I think it's a bug when you party up with someone doing the mutation for the first time. I completed the mutation on brutal then helped a friend through it, and I received the 185,000 bonus exp again.
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Hmm, seems I suck really hard as Kerrigan on brutal diff. I have a really hard time snowballing her off the beginning my units don't live to be part of the next group of units. I'm currently lvl 13 and it doesn't help that I'm not sure what to go against the AI despite guessing their comp.
The worst is when I fight a zerg AI who goes ling/banelings/scourges/vipers because they have a lot of unit and toward the endgame, I end up with constant 1 fps. It's at least slightly more bearable on lowest gfx settings but using lurkers and burrow is hard because of it or splitting units vs irradiate or fungal growth.
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Recent patches have made me very happy that I got every commander to level 15 before Blizzard mixed up the AI's tactics and units. Some of the new unit comps are incredibly frustrating, like mass scourge/viper insta-killing all my hercs full of tanks.
Beat the Mutator on hard, then brutal with lvl 15 Karax, usual build: forge first, cannon expand, rush solar forge and cannon upgrades while building up defenses, throw down all abilities liberally while spamming carriers (hard) or shadow-cannon immortals (brutal). Should've added energizers too but forgot. Also beat hard with herc-tank spam. Allies were competent every game but we missed some bonus trains.
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What level until Abathur can start taking on brutal?
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Does leaving in co-op works? Last 4 games in a row people leave instantly
Edit... After the leavers i started queueing for brutal mutation .. twice in a row a lvl 5 commander (lvl 5, not lvl 5 masteries) =/ my luck ;(
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On May 22 2016 17:12 Highways wrote:
What level until Abathur can start taking on brutal?
As soon as you get the hang of it, doable starting at level 3 with the toxic nests upgrade unless your partner is afk.
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So am I seeing this right that we have to play AT LEAST 25 weeks until we get the final bounty achievement? If so, my plan will be to just play 6 games of mutation a week and leave it at that. Mutation missions even give you less experience than normal brutal missions, so its not even good for leveling up your mastery levels. I really cant be arsed to play the same mission (trains in this case) over and over again 
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I've beaten train mutation (brutal) with Kerrigan, Abathur, Raynor and Vorazun. I suppose Vora has two ways to do it that carry team superhard: mass DT/archon to MC some of the biggest units, or just pure VR. Raynor also just carries hard due to massing OCs (3-4) and having more stuff than anyone else. I favor pure mmm with him.
Kerrigan only played few games, but I didn't feel like lurkers alone were enough. Their dmg wasn't THAT great on trains anyway, so if you get away with it, ultra/ling def is superior even on this map imo. In any case Kerrigan doesn't have the best antiair, she might suffer against mass air comps (?). But wouldn't know if some weird pure hydra could still pull it off.
Abathur I thought was the worst hero for the mutation until I tried vipers. Damn, those units are imbalanced as fk! I made 5 vipers, but hell probably 2-3 is all you need to spam battlefield full of disabling clouds. It's much better than in multiplayer, since it also slows and disables even melee units, and vipers actually have endless mana. Strongly suggest getting few of those with roach/queen composition and forget about the expensive higher tier air/host armies imo. With air comps problem is that you have to still mass roach to keep minerals low, but without proper support they just die and bunch of biomass is lost. Few vipers make your army not lose anything in mid+ game fights, so being maxed happens more naturally, with higher avg biomass per unit!
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I beat it with everyone except Zagara and Vorazun.
On May 22 2016 22:25 Ouga wrote:
Kerrigan only played few games, but I didn't feel like lurkers alone were enough. Their dmg wasn't THAT great on trains anyway, so if you get away with it, ultra/ling def is superior even on this map imo. In any case Kerrigan doesn't have the best antiair, she might suffer against mass air comps (?). But wouldn't know if some weird pure hydra could still pull it off.
Of course you don't only get lurkers. You need a standing army to get to emergencies. I still flood both tracks with lurkers, but I also get lings and queens. Lings are especially good for eliminating the train's armor. Queens for keeping the creep spread. If the enemy is air, I also go hydras, which means I have to go a little lighter on the lurkers to preserve gas. You're right, Kerrigan has a hard time with air. I don't make any ultras because I think it's a waste of gas on that mutation... gas that can go to lurkers. By the way, the trick with lurkers is to have them right on the tracks, not off to the side, that way their attack hits multiple train cars at once, doing way more damage. The range upgrade would then let them do even more damage to the trains. (But you still need a few off the tracks closer to your ramps.)
With Raynor I did the same thing. Mass infantry. Some tanks if the enemy has heavy ground, or some vikings if they're heavy air. Bunkers with firebats works great against the undead. My mech Raynor build, which I usually go on train missions, would probably be a disaster here, since the undead would swallow up all the mines.
Abathur is tough because he has such a slow start, so you're really going to be chasing your own shortcomings early on, and your ally might get a bit frustrated. But the unit you want the most of, that you will mass are mutas. Mutas with all three upgrades are amazing on this mission. Double damage to armor and 6 bounces means they do crazy damage to trains (all six bounces hit the train) and they have the most reliable micro-free AoE attacks for the zombies. Late game when my crawlers are no longer cutting it, I camp a few 100 biomass mutas at the ramps, and they take care of everything that comes.
Swann has been covered. Do the herc tank thing; lots of goliaths if they're air. But you want to put more of an emphasis on turrets this mission than if it were a regular train mission.
Karax I did by mass turretting, pretty straightforward.
Artanis I only did once, and I may have gotten lucky, since my ally was Swann. It was against air zerg so I went mass zealot/archon/immortal (a few immortals for the trains) and archons with storm wiped out all the air zerg easily. I'm not sure if I could have sustained the archon count for it if I didn't have Swann as a partner.
On May 22 2016 15:00 Rizare wrote:
Hmm, seems I suck really hard as Kerrigan on brutal diff. I have a really hard time snowballing her off the beginning my units don't live to be part of the next group of units. I'm currently lvl 13 and it doesn't help that I'm not sure what to go against the AI despite guessing their comp.
The worst is when I fight a zerg AI who goes ling/banelings/scourges/vipers because they have a lot of unit and toward the endgame, I end up with constant 1 fps. It's at least slightly more bearable on lowest gfx settings but using lurkers and burrow is hard because of it or splitting units vs irradiate or fungal growth.
The best way to keep Kerrigan's army alive is to know when Kerrigan can take on a wave by herself, and then doing so while leaving the army behind. You pretty much only want to do that for the first bunch of waves. Though you not being level 15 might make it a hell of a lot harder, since you don't have that 50% energy regeneration buff at level 15. It also helps to keep your army alive by keeping the creep spread. They regenerate very fast on it. If you have queens in your army to keep that spread (which you should) they can also transfuse weak expensive units, like lurkers or even hydras.
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Sure no point arguing since many styles work. Reason for ultras is to be tanks that never die, same idea as having vipers. Both of those make your team just way more less likely to get wiped out, just in general army becoming better and better. Maybe ultra in itself doesn't do dmg worth its investment, but respawning and letting your ally (and lings) do dmg makes them worthy.
I might try aba mutas again though. Tried them once while leveling, and first 10 mutas just got into chain fungal and died without doing single dmg Made me think they prob have hardcounters out there against some comps that do too much aoe dmg before mutas can regen/burst them. But as said not worthy test.
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On May 22 2016 11:49 The Bottle wrote:
By the way, looking at the achievements, I have 8 mutation bounty rewards. Is that a bug? You should only be able to get 4 until the second mutation, right?
There was a bug in the system where I think if you beat it on the first day, it didn't capture it, so some people that beat it again later got double bounties out of it. I'm guessing it won't happen again moving forward though.
On May 22 2016 22:01 DanTastiC wrote:So am I seeing this right that we have to play AT LEAST 25 weeks until we get the final bounty achievement? If so, my plan will be to just play 6 games of mutation a week and leave it at that. Mutation missions even give you less experience than normal brutal missions, so its not even good for leveling up your mastery levels. I really cant be arsed to play the same mission (trains in this case) over and over again
Yea, pretty much. You need about 6 months for the bounties achievement, and possibly just as long grinding level 90, depending how many games you play. 6 Mutation Brutals per week is a good strat to get the bounties and wins achievement at the same time on week 25. If I find a good and easy one to grind though, that isn't too much of a headache, I'll definitely run it more just so that I eventually only have to beat a mutation on Brutal once, or a few times, per week and then leave it be. Over the next few weeks, we'll have solid strategies to beat them all, until they start mixing up the mutations with other maps (if they do this).
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EPT
