Pls give zerg a solution that doesn't involve free units, this makes for terrible gameplay. By the way, nothing indicates that mech is op against zerg. Winrates, tournament representation is all fine, mech has been beaten often. If the terran is able to create a split map scenario with mass bc raven tank then yes he has won but zerg has the tools to "not let them get there" Is it terrible gameplay? Yes. Imbalanced? I have seen nothing that shows that. Mech in tvz needs a redesign, all a straight up buff for zerg does is making mech disappear from the pro scene...again. and we're back to bio mine vs ling bane muta 24/7.
On August 27 2015 21:51 Charoisaur wrote: Pls give zerg a solution that doesn't involve free units, this makes for terrible gameplay. By the way, nothing indicates that mech is op against zerg. Winrates, tournament representation is all fine, mech has been beaten often. If the terran is able to create a split map scenario with mass bc raven tank then yes he has won but zerg has the tools to "not let them get there" Is it terrible gameplay? Yes. Imbalanced? I have seen nothing that shows that. Mech in tvz needs a redesign, all a straight up buff for zerg does is making mech disappear from the pro scene...again. and we're back to bio mine vs ling bane muta 24/7.
Hmm, how about a hive upgrade to vipers - movement speed buff. So you can use them with mutas to harass with blinding cloud on turrets-thors? Is that bad idea, good idea? :-)
On August 27 2015 21:51 Charoisaur wrote: Pls give zerg a solution that doesn't involve free units, this makes for terrible gameplay. By the way, nothing indicates that mech is op against zerg. Winrates, tournament representation is all fine, mech has been beaten often. If the terran is able to create a split map scenario with mass bc raven tank then yes he has won but zerg has the tools to "not let them get there" Is it terrible gameplay? Yes. Imbalanced? I have seen nothing that shows that. Mech in tvz needs a redesign, all a straight up buff for zerg does is making mech disappear from the pro scene...again. and we're back to bio mine vs ling bane muta 24/7.
So we should let Mech Cancer stay in HotS just like we let BL/Infestor stay in WoL ? Such great logic... good job man. You hear this guys ? "dont let them get there" is balanced when its you're race that has that compostion.
PS. This change would also not stop mech in late game, it would be another timing of "dont let them get there"
Only LotV has the good answers, BL was buffed and PB is good vs air + Ravens where nerfed.
On August 27 2015 22:20 [PkF] Wire wrote: Trying to make swarm hosts a thing again ? No thanks.
the cooldown is still disgustingly long so I don't think it will play any close to the old SH, more like less sucky (actually good? the cost change looks good) version of current 1
Cost change + no research + takes less supply -> base sniping is going to become far too easy. Some people say that the LotV SH is broken, I think this is overdoing it though probably a step in the right direction. I can take those changes if the locusts dps is slightly altered.
Removing seeker missile or splitting upgrades would've been my choice. The problem isn't the mech composition, but the mass air transition that follows it.
On August 27 2015 22:48 Absentia wrote: Removing seeker missile or splitting upgrades would've been my choice. The problem isn't the mech composition, but the mass air transition that follows it.
Yeah splitting upgrades again would make so much more sense.
On August 27 2015 21:51 Charoisaur wrote: Pls give zerg a solution that doesn't involve free units, this makes for terrible gameplay. By the way, nothing indicates that mech is op against zerg. Winrates, tournament representation is all fine, mech has been beaten often. If the terran is able to create a split map scenario with mass bc raven tank then yes he has won but zerg has the tools to "not let them get there" Is it terrible gameplay? Yes. Imbalanced? I have seen nothing that shows that. Mech in tvz needs a redesign, all a straight up buff for zerg does is making mech disappear from the pro scene...again. and we're back to bio mine vs ling bane muta 24/7.
So we should let Mech Cancer stay in HotS just like we let BL/Infestor stay in WoL ? Such great logic... good job man. You hear this guys ? "dont let them get there" is balanced when its you're race that has that compostion.
PS. This change would also not stop mech in late game, it would be another timing of "dont let them get there"
Only LotV has the good answers, BL was buffed and PB is good vs air + Ravens where nerfed.
You didn't even read the post past that, I agree with what he said simply buffing is not the solution, all blizz needs to do is make it harder to transition to mass air, mech is fine turtle mech is the problem.
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
With the end of WCS/GSL/SS2L and Blizzcon arriving (and probably being the last HotS tourneys ever), nerfind turtle mech (by making air transitions harder, hence splitting upgrades again for instance) would have been a far less risky attempt. I know nothing is final blah blah blah but if their idea is pushing out SHs I think it's a potentially dangerous one.
If they want to fix the problems just return the old swarm host. The new version is a thousand times shittier by concept and the only thing not making it ridiculously frustrating to play against is how bad it is.
Hands up who wants to play against free units with two times the dps of marines flying into your bases from any possible angle. 10swarm host deploying locusts is like having 40 free marines in your base, so much fun wow.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
I said it in my opinion on LotV, the LotV swarm host might very well be overpowered in LotV, but moreso I believe this could be the case in HotS with the cost reduction. Compare this swarm host to the old one:
nerfs: --- locusts spawn time doubled -- locust health nerfed by 15 - no more burrow
buffs: ++ locust dps +25% ++ locust fly ++ Movement speed increased from 2.25 to 2.95 ++ no more 200/200 upgrade for the +10second life time + doesn't need to burrow anymore to spawn locusts + Swarm Hosts no longer collide with Locusts
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
While I'd agree +2 blink sentries build are a bit too stable for my taste, one cannot say they break ZvP. While the looming threat of getting one of your bases sniped if you ever don't pay attention is a bit too much. Again, not saying it doesn't deserve testing, just pointing out that's probably too many buffs.
I think a far better test map would 1) split air and ground mech upgrades again 2) marginally buff infestors (bigger fungal radius, quicker projectile...). This would really give Z solid and not gimmicky tools against what they currently struggle against (mech and mass blink builds).
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat, all in is not about doing damage, its about ending the game.
Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
While I'd agree +2 blink sentries build are a bit too stable for my taste, one cannot say they break ZvP. While the looming threat of getting one of your bases sniped if you ever don't pay attention is a bit too much. Again, not saying it doesn't deserve testing, just pointing out that's probably too many buffs.
I think a far better test map would 1) split air and ground mech upgrades again 2) marginally buff infestors (bigger fungal radius, quicker projectile...). This would really give Z solid and not gimmicky tools against what they currently struggle against (mech and mass blink builds).
Its not stable its just way to strong... there is no reason to tech up when you can FF and snipe all day, that is not balanced by any means. They didnt do that before cuz there was defensive SH that could destoy their all in.
I agree with you that giving some love to the infestor would be good and spliting the mech upgrades. But if blizz wants the SH to be an option to mech... at least make it.
I do want what you said, but i will take anything that could help vs cancer mech.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That's bullshit, you see Vipers all the time unless the game just ends with the initial timing which is very rare at the highest level. You somtimes see broodlords and Templar or Colossi, and usually a bunch of immortals are added eventually. Sometimes you see infestors or ultras too.
I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far. blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup. I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play. DK has really done a good job with pvz.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That is totally untrue, brood lords, infestors and ultras are very common in ZvP. Even colossus play is making a resurgence (PtitDrogo during his ASUS run, Rain vs Rogue today). If you ask me every Z should use a melee style or a muta style right now, mixed in with hydra ling all-ins, but just never go for roach hydra viper.
On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote: I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far. blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup. I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play. DK has really done a good job with pvz.
On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote: I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far. blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup. I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play. DK has really done a good job with pvz.
I hugely disagree. PvZ at the beginning of HotS was one of the most varied match-ups, both races had a wide array of builds and used all of them because none stood out particularly. I remember sOs going void ray chargelot archon then blink sentries then phoenix colossi in a series. Those times were brilliant (probably mostly because most Z hadn't the patience to play cancer swarm host styles, but hey, they were brilliant anyway... and I ensure you it was a lot of fun to play vs swarm hosts as P, I liked every swarm host game I ever played). Even Z had many viable styles, roach hydra viper timings were very strong, swarm hosts obviously, ultra ling infestor was very prominent at some point. NaNiwa's builds were amazingly refined, so fun to study. Rain's builds were astonishing. Zest's phoenix style was absolutely oustanding, I still play it nowadays.
Honestly early HotS PvZ was my favorite match-up ever by far. TvZ does not even come close. It was varied, wild, interesting, mostly balanced, entertaining, it had everything.
Nowadays it's just bland, the P makes blink and sentries all the time (sometimes after an oracle, sometimes not) because it has been figured out that that build has little to no weaknesses and it's up to the Z, and only the Z it seems in the current meta, to make something happen. It's unbelievably boring to my taste and I genuinely root for Z in every PvZ because I find that blink sentry style boring as hell. I really wish some other styles got played as P, but no one gives phoenix any love anymore, void ray chargelot archon has faded out of fashion... just because one style is so good it outshines every other. I really wish something was done to help Z against that style.
On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote: I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far. blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup. I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play. DK has really done a good job with pvz.
I hugely disagree. PvZ at the beginning of HotS was one of the most varied match-ups, both races had a wide array of builds and used all of them because none stood out particularly. I remember sOs going void ray chargelot archon then blink sentries then phoenix colossi in a series. Those times were brilliant (probably mostly because most Z hadn't the patience to play cancer swarm host styles, but hey, they were brilliant anyway... and I ensure you it was a lot of fun to play vs swarm hosts as P, I liked every swarm host game I ever played). Even Z had many viable styles, roach hydra viper timings were very strong, swarm hosts obviously, ultra ling infestor was very prominent at some point. NaNiwa's builds were amazingly refined, so fun to study. Rain's builds were astonishing. Zest's phoenix style was absolutely oustanding, I still play it nowadays.
Honestly early HotS PvZ was my favorite match-up ever by far. TvZ does not even come close. It was varied, wild, interesting, mostly balanced, entertaining, it had everything.
Nowadays it's just bland, the P makes blink and sentries all the time (sometimes after an oracle, sometimes not) because it has been figured out that that build has little to no weaknesses and it's up to the Z, and only the Z it seems in the current meta, to make something happen. It's unbelievably boring to my taste and I genuinely root for Z in every PvZ because I find that blink sentry style boring as hell. I really wish some other styles got played as P, but no one gives phoenix any love anymore, void ray chargelot archon has faded out of fashion... just because one style is so good it outshines every other. I really wish something was done to help Z against that style.
My thoughts exactly. ZvT usually had one style from both sides(MLB vs MMMM) with a bit of variations, but it was really action packed and micro intensive match-up. ZvP on the other hand had a lot more styles and different compositions and that was really really fun in my opinion, every game was like a different match-up. One game you see aggressive Swarm Host pushes against standard Protoss army, next game you see Protoss air vs. Roach, Hydra, Vipers, next game it is mass Mutas and Corruptors, and Zerg also could switch between styles in one game.
I've been saying since the Swarm Host nerfs that ZvP has become horrendously dull, no matter what happens and who wins, match-up just isn't fun to watch at all.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That's bullshit, you see Vipers all the time unless the game just ends with the initial timing which is very rare at the highest level. You somtimes see broodlords and Templar or Colossi, and usually a bunch of immortals are added eventually. Sometimes you see infestors or ultras too.
It's ZerglingShepherd/HailHydras/DeepBurrow heading towards his third ban for ban dodging. I wouldn't bother.
I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote: i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe
That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better
it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style"
i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That is totally untrue, brood lords, infestors and ultras are very common in ZvP. Even colossus play is making a resurgence (PtitDrogo during his ASUS run, Rain vs Rogue today). If you ask me every Z should use a melee style or a muta style right now, mixed in with hydra ling all-ins, but just never go for roach hydra viper.
I personally find roach hydra viper extremely boring to play as well. I still love ZvP because it feels like I can make pretty much any units I want as long as I scout right. Ling/Infestor, Ling/Hydra, mutas, ultras, everything feels like it has its place in ZvP on both sides.
ZvT on the other hand I feel has long since been ruined since the beginning of HotS. The mine and speed boost are the stupidest things to come from HotS and mech has been ridiculous as of late. While I find myself enjoying 99% of my ZvPs I havent played a ZvT I've enjoyed in ages, possibly years.
Swarm Hosts were actually awesome. I don't get how people who enjoy BCs/Ravens/Vikings and Collosi/Storm/Tempests can really hate on SH/BL/corruptor...all are ridiculously overpowered elements of lategame armies.
The problem for zvp is swarmhosts deterred the protoss from doing the unbeatable build they are currently able to do (2 oracle into nexus into 12 sentry blink stalker into ht).
Needed changes:
phoenix range upgrade removed Warp prism health reverted/KA back in the game hellbat nerfed by a lot widow mine damage increased but must be manually targeted or kept the same but nerfed siege tank buffed thors range reduced vs or splash reduced remove pf's from the game Hydralisk health buffed/start with their range upgrade broodlords can be abducted again(abduct your own broodlords vs HSM) mutalisk regen cut in half or removed and add +1 armor
Possible changes: Hive upgrade: queen movement speed buff Hive upgrade: unlocks all zerg tech paths (can build any building even if hive dies) Change overlord drops name to :donate 200/200 for nothing. Ultralisks: Can jump over buildings, loses 3 armor for 5 seconds Infestor: neural parasite permanently converts the unit, either cant take units like carriers/bc's or takes 10 seconds. Infestor: fungal growth actually does damage and slows units rather than locks them in place.
On August 28 2015 10:55 duckk wrote: The problem for zvp is swarmhosts deterred the protoss from doing the unbeatable build they are currently able to do (2 oracle into nexus into 12 sentry blink stalker into ht).
Needed changes:
phoenix range upgrade removed Warp prism health reverted/KA back in the game hellbat nerfed by a lot widow mine damage increased but must be manually targeted or kept the same but nerfed siege tank buffed thors range reduced vs or splash reduced remove pf's from the game Hydralisk health buffed/start with their range upgrade broodlords can be abducted again(abduct your own broodlords vs HSM) mutalisk regen cut in half or removed and add +1 armor
Possible changes: Hive upgrade: queen movement speed buff Hive upgrade: unlocks all zerg tech paths (can build any building even if hive dies) Change overlord drops name to :donate 200/200 for nothing. Ultralisks: Can jump over buildings, loses 3 armor for 5 seconds Infestor: neural parasite permanently converts the unit, either cant take units like carriers/bc's or takes 10 seconds. Infestor: fungal growth actually does damage and slows units rather than locks them in place.
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Even if you were right, which I'm pretty sure you aren't, the numbers can all be adjusted. The point isn't adding in current PB, its adding in Parasitic Bomb. If it needs to cost more energy/do less damage/ect then that's a balance tweak, but there's a fundamental problem with vipers in HotS that gets fixed by PB in LotV. You're forced in almost every engagement worth a damn to sacrifice your vipers in order to blinding cloud because of the superiority of viking range and protection that the thors have via tanks. Parasitic bomb allows vipers to challenge the air and prevents vikings from A-moving the vipers before the engagement is finished.
Ppl think PB is broken bc it is so powerful but to be honest it is a fair spell. The range to cast PB is so short such that to destroy a group of air units, say Liberators, the vipers have to pretty much suicide themselves to cast the spell. Since it takes a few spells to destroy Liberators (or other air units), the vipers are pretty much sacrifice in the process.
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
Yeah, it is problematic if you have 4-5+ Vipers. You can't really take the target out of the group.
I will gladly lose my 10 Vipers to kill an army of 20 Vikings + 10 Ravens(if I have the economy of course).
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
Yeah, it is problematic if you have 4-5+ Vipers. You can't really take the target out of the group.
I will gladly lose my 10 Vipers to kill an army of 20 Vikings + 10 Ravens(if I have the economy of course).
hmm it looks like slightly too much too quickly, but keep in mind these were two very low skilled zergs. If those were infestors every single muta would have died aswell, just slower. It seems like a good spell just needs to be tweaked in damage.
I think some are missing that part of the move to bring the LOTV Swarm Host into HOTS is so the Swarm Host isn't worthless, which most currently view it as being.
Not that I'm saying it's the best idea, but that's part of the logic behind the changes.
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
Yeah, it is problematic if you have 4-5+ Vipers. You can't really take the target out of the group.
On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
Yeah, it is problematic if you have 4-5+ Vipers. You can't really take the target out of the group.
I will gladly lose my 10 Vipers to kill an army of 20 Vikings + 10 Ravens(if I have the economy of course).
hmm it looks like slightly too much too quickly, but keep in mind these were two very low skilled zergs. If those were infestors every single muta would have died aswell, just slower. It seems like a good spell just needs to be tweaked in damage.
Hahaha, he just called you (top masters playery) a "low skilled zerg".. It can't possibly be broken, it must be the players are bad! amiright?
EPT
