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On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing.
While I'd agree +2 blink sentries build are a bit too stable for my taste, one cannot say they break ZvP. While the looming threat of getting one of your bases sniped if you ever don't pay attention is a bit too much. Again, not saying it doesn't deserve testing, just pointing out that's probably too many buffs.
I think a far better test map would 1) split air and ground mech upgrades again 2) marginally buff infestors (bigger fungal radius, quicker projectile...). This would really give Z solid and not gimmicky tools against what they currently struggle against (mech and mass blink builds).
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On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?)
Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stalker and sentry.
You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now.
When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken.
Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat, all in is not about doing damage, its about ending the game.
Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL
So yeah no reason to debate this.
On August 27 2015 23:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. While I'd agree +2 blink sentries build are a bit too stable for my taste, one cannot say they break ZvP. While the looming threat of getting one of your bases sniped if you ever don't pay attention is a bit too much. Again, not saying it doesn't deserve testing, just pointing out that's probably too many buffs. I think a far better test map would 1) split air and ground mech upgrades again 2) marginally buff infestors (bigger fungal radius, quicker projectile...). This would really give Z solid and not gimmicky tools against what they currently struggle against (mech and mass blink builds).
Its not stable its just way to strong... there is no reason to tech up when you can FF and snipe all day, that is not balanced by any means.
They didnt do that before cuz there was defensive SH that could destoy their all in.
I agree with you that giving some love to the infestor would be good and spliting the mech upgrades.
But if blizz wants the SH to be an option to mech... at least make it.
I do want what you said, but i will take anything that could help vs cancer mech.
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On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this.
That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
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On August 27 2015 23:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this. That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries.
Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split.
You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier.
And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
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On August 27 2015 23:46 DeepBurrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:42 Big J wrote:On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this. That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries. Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split. You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That's bullshit, you see Vipers all the time unless the game just ends with the initial timing which is very rare at the highest level. You somtimes see broodlords and Templar or Colossi, and usually a bunch of immortals are added eventually. Sometimes you see infestors or ultras too.
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I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far.
blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup.
I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play.
DK has really done a good job with pvz.
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On August 27 2015 23:46 DeepBurrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:42 Big J wrote:On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this. That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries. Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split. You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless.
That is totally untrue, brood lords, infestors and ultras are very common in ZvP. Even colossus play is making a resurgence (PtitDrogo during his ASUS run, Rain vs Rogue today). If you ask me every Z should use a melee style or a muta style right now, mixed in with hydra ling all-ins, but just never go for roach hydra viper.
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On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far.
blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup.
I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play.
DK has really done a good job with pvz.
it isn't more fun to play.
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On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far.
blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup.
I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play.
DK has really done a good job with pvz.
I hugely disagree. PvZ at the beginning of HotS was one of the most varied match-ups, both races had a wide array of builds and used all of them because none stood out particularly. I remember sOs going void ray chargelot archon then blink sentries then phoenix colossi in a series. Those times were brilliant (probably mostly because most Z hadn't the patience to play cancer swarm host styles, but hey, they were brilliant anyway... and I ensure you it was a lot of fun to play vs swarm hosts as P, I liked every swarm host game I ever played). Even Z had many viable styles, roach hydra viper timings were very strong, swarm hosts obviously, ultra ling infestor was very prominent at some point. NaNiwa's builds were amazingly refined, so fun to study. Rain's builds were astonishing. Zest's phoenix style was absolutely oustanding, I still play it nowadays.
Honestly early HotS PvZ was my favorite match-up ever by far. TvZ does not even come close. It was varied, wild, interesting, mostly balanced, entertaining, it had everything.
Nowadays it's just bland, the P makes blink and sentries all the time (sometimes after an oracle, sometimes not) because it has been figured out that that build has little to no weaknesses and it's up to the Z, and only the Z it seems in the current meta, to make something happen. It's unbelievably boring to my taste and I genuinely root for Z in every PvZ because I find that blink sentry style boring as hell. I really wish some other styles got played as P, but no one gives phoenix any love anymore, void ray chargelot archon has faded out of fashion... just because one style is so good it outshines every other. I really wish something was done to help Z against that style.
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On August 28 2015 01:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 00:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if I'm the only one but personally I think entertainment-wise pvz is in the best state ever by far.
blink sentry (+immortal/templar) vs roach hydra (+ultra/viper) is so much more exciting than collossus/broodlord/swarm host turtle we saw for the majority of sc2 in this matchup.
I only speak from a viewer experience because I don't play one of these races but I can imagine that it's also more fun to play.
DK has really done a good job with pvz. I hugely disagree. PvZ at the beginning of HotS was one of the most varied match-ups, both races had a wide array of builds and used all of them because none stood out particularly. I remember sOs going void ray chargelot archon then blink sentries then phoenix colossi in a series. Those times were brilliant (probably mostly because most Z hadn't the patience to play cancer swarm host styles, but hey, they were brilliant anyway... and I ensure you it was a lot of fun to play vs swarm hosts as P, I liked every swarm host game I ever played). Even Z had many viable styles, roach hydra viper timings were very strong, swarm hosts obviously, ultra ling infestor was very prominent at some point. NaNiwa's builds were amazingly refined, so fun to study. Rain's builds were astonishing. Zest's phoenix style was absolutely oustanding, I still play it nowadays. Honestly early HotS PvZ was my favorite match-up ever by far. TvZ does not even come close. It was varied, wild, interesting, mostly balanced, entertaining, it had everything. Nowadays it's just bland, the P makes blink and sentries all the time (sometimes after an oracle, sometimes not) because it has been figured out that that build has little to no weaknesses and it's up to the Z, and only the Z it seems in the current meta, to make something happen. It's unbelievably boring to my taste and I genuinely root for Z in every PvZ because I find that blink sentry style boring as hell. I really wish some other styles got played as P, but no one gives phoenix any love anymore, void ray chargelot archon has faded out of fashion... just because one style is so good it outshines every other. I really wish something was done to help Z against that style.
My thoughts exactly. ZvT usually had one style from both sides(MLB vs MMMM) with a bit of variations, but it was really action packed and micro intensive match-up.
ZvP on the other hand had a lot more styles and different compositions and that was really really fun in my opinion, every game was like a different match-up. One game you see aggressive Swarm Host pushes against standard Protoss army, next game you see Protoss air vs. Roach, Hydra, Vipers, next game it is mass Mutas and Corruptors, and Zerg also could switch between styles in one game.
I've been saying since the Swarm Host nerfs that ZvP has become horrendously dull, no matter what happens and who wins, match-up just isn't fun to watch at all.
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On August 27 2015 23:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:46 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:42 Big J wrote:On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this. That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries. Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split. You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless. That's bullshit, you see Vipers all the time unless the game just ends with the initial timing which is very rare at the highest level. You somtimes see broodlords and Templar or Colossi, and usually a bunch of immortals are added eventually. Sometimes you see infestors or ultras too.
It's ZerglingShepherd/HailHydras/DeepBurrow heading towards his third ban for ban dodging. I wouldn't bother.
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I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
On August 28 2015 00:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:46 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:42 Big J wrote:On August 27 2015 23:38 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:24 brickrd wrote:On August 27 2015 23:15 DeepBurrow wrote:On August 27 2015 23:04 brickrd wrote:
i said it in the lotv thread and ill say it here, this has huge potential to make zvp nexus sniping with SH really strong and possibly OP, mostly due to the cost amd supply change. imagine how much more roach hydra you can get out to defend the counterattack with twice the gas. zerg floats minerals easily in the midgame, this cost change is massive. and don't forget not researching the upgrade means it hits earlier, 4-8 more roach hydra and more resources to build emergency army if attacked while preparing a nexus snipe That is a good change, cuz Zerg cant really punish a protoss now that goes for 2/2 blink... unless he all ins earlier then toss hiting his timing. zvp balance is fine, protoss might be very very marginally favored but not to a point that calls for a balance overhaul in the matchup. and allinning an economic build before its production kicks in is... generally how punishing is done. how else do you want to "punish" it? you either try to kill it or you play roach hydra viper and macro/micro better it's a stable build, for sure, but the fact that protoss can reliably go up to a 3 base macro style and start building army isn't a problem for the matchup. giving zerg what could potentially be practically free nexus snipes 2:40 earlier than it was ever possible before is not a reasonable response to "protoss has a strong midgame style" i'm not saying this 100% breaks zvp but i think there's a huge chance it will be a problem for protoss, and gimmick postbuff builds dictating matchup balance is not usually a good thing (hellbat drops anyone?) Its not fine, every zerg now goes for a hydra/ling timing or a roach brrow timing and every protss goes for 2/2 blink stlalker and sentry. You dont even see late game, everythign ends in mid game now. When you only see 2/2 stalker-sentry vs Zerg you know something is broken. Punishing means doing damage ( like killing his 3 base ) and then retreat,, all in is not about doing damage. Im 100% sure you play protoss because you said all in is punish LOL So yeah no reason to debate this. That's not true. It's like bio TvZ. Just with shit unit interactions of roaches and hydras and stalkers and sentries. Except with Bio, you get in late game and they dont go all in cuz they know banelings are a counter no matter how well you split. You also see Zerg going Ultralisk vs Bio, and you will never see a tier 3 unit now in ZvP from both races, not even vipers since you are rushing to kill the Protoss earlier. And his going for the timing since abduct makes most colossi build useless. That is totally untrue, brood lords, infestors and ultras are very common in ZvP. Even colossus play is making a resurgence (PtitDrogo during his ASUS run, Rain vs Rogue today). If you ask me every Z should use a melee style or a muta style right now, mixed in with hydra ling all-ins, but just never go for roach hydra viper.
I personally find roach hydra viper extremely boring to play as well. I still love ZvP because it feels like I can make pretty much any units I want as long as I scout right. Ling/Infestor, Ling/Hydra, mutas, ultras, everything feels like it has its place in ZvP on both sides.
ZvT on the other hand I feel has long since been ruined since the beginning of HotS. The mine and speed boost are the stupidest things to come from HotS and mech has been ridiculous as of late. While I find myself enjoying 99% of my ZvPs I havent played a ZvT I've enjoyed in ages, possibly years.
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Swarm Hosts were actually awesome. I don't get how people who enjoy BCs/Ravens/Vikings and Collosi/Storm/Tempests can really hate on SH/BL/corruptor...all are ridiculously overpowered elements of lategame armies.
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The problem for zvp is swarmhosts deterred the protoss from doing the unbeatable build they are currently able to do (2 oracle into nexus into 12 sentry blink stalker into ht).
Needed changes:
phoenix range upgrade removed
Warp prism health reverted/KA back in the game
hellbat nerfed by a lot
widow mine damage increased but must be manually targeted or kept the same but nerfed
siege tank buffed
thors range reduced vs or splash reduced
remove pf's from the game
Hydralisk health buffed/start with their range upgrade
broodlords can be abducted again(abduct your own broodlords vs HSM)
mutalisk regen cut in half or removed and add +1 armor
Possible changes:
Hive upgrade: queen movement speed buff
Hive upgrade: unlocks all zerg tech paths (can build any building even if hive dies)
Change overlord drops name to :donate 200/200 for nothing.
Ultralisks: Can jump over buildings, loses 3 armor for 5 seconds
Infestor: neural parasite permanently converts the unit, either cant take units like carriers/bc's or takes 10 seconds.
Infestor: fungal growth actually does damage and slows units rather than locks them in place.
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On August 28 2015 10:55 duckk wrote:
The problem for zvp is swarmhosts deterred the protoss from doing the unbeatable build they are currently able to do (2 oracle into nexus into 12 sentry blink stalker into ht).
Needed changes:
phoenix range upgrade removed
Warp prism health reverted/KA back in the game
hellbat nerfed by a lot
widow mine damage increased but must be manually targeted or kept the same but nerfed
siege tank buffed
thors range reduced vs or splash reduced
remove pf's from the game
Hydralisk health buffed/start with their range upgrade
broodlords can be abducted again(abduct your own broodlords vs HSM)
mutalisk regen cut in half or removed and add +1 armor
Possible changes:
Hive upgrade: queen movement speed buff
Hive upgrade: unlocks all zerg tech paths (can build any building even if hive dies)
Change overlord drops name to :donate 200/200 for nothing.
Ultralisks: Can jump over buildings, loses 3 armor for 5 seconds
Infestor: neural parasite permanently converts the unit, either cant take units like carriers/bc's or takes 10 seconds.
Infestor: fungal growth actually does damage and slows units rather than locks them in place.
All these changes are needed to fix ZvP huh?
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On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely.
Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech.
And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol.
That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
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On August 28 2015 11:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Why is parasitic bomb broken? I haven't used it yet but i've had several people use it vs my mutas and nothing really happened? Just take the target out of the group. Is there something I am missing from that? It seems like liberators are far more problematic IMO. Is it more of a problem if you spam it?
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On August 28 2015 11:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 09:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I really REALLY want to hear their logic on this one. Not just the actual changes, which I personally think are useless and overall a nerf because flying locust aren't always what you want, but the fact that they didn't do the changes that are ALREADY in LotV. Split upgrades and Parasitic Bomb.
Did they test it and found it to be too overpowered in the HotS ecosystem? Did they want to avoid it for some reason? This entire change seems silly without a context as to why they don't use the solution they already found. Even a simple "parasitic bombed really helped ZvMech but destroyed ZvP" or some shit to make it seem like they even tried.
You aren't serious, are you? Parasitic bomb is completely broken and nullifies air tech vs zerg completely. Since air tech is required to beat broodlords, broodlord viper is completely invincible, far more than current air mech. And that you want to have in HoTS? Lol. That's like me saying BCs should have their dps doubled or ravens should be 1 supply. Pls stay serious when discussing balance changes.
Even if you were right, which I'm pretty sure you aren't, the numbers can all be adjusted. The point isn't adding in current PB, its adding in Parasitic Bomb. If it needs to cost more energy/do less damage/ect then that's a balance tweak, but there's a fundamental problem with vipers in HotS that gets fixed by PB in LotV. You're forced in almost every engagement worth a damn to sacrifice your vipers in order to blinding cloud because of the superiority of viking range and protection that the thors have via tanks. Parasitic bomb allows vipers to challenge the air and prevents vikings from A-moving the vipers before the engagement is finished.
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Ppl think PB is broken bc it is so powerful but to be honest it is a fair spell. The range to cast PB is so short such that to destroy a group of air units, say Liberators, the vipers have to pretty much suicide themselves to cast the spell. Since it takes a few spells to destroy Liberators (or other air units), the vipers are pretty much sacrifice in the process.
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I don't even think this is going to fix the problem vs Mech as Zerg lol, glad I am playing only LOTV now no offense to people here T_T
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EPT
