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On July 30 2015 08:19 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2015 06:14 TMagpie wrote:On July 30 2015 05:48 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 30 2015 01:44 TMagpie wrote:On July 30 2015 00:31 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 28 2015 07:02 qxc wrote:On July 27 2015 06:43 TRaFFiC wrote:
I literally cringe every time someone says that Archon mode will attract new players because it's "easier." There's nothing easy about it. As the article covers, playing it properly requires a lot of skill and communication. People have been playing 2v2 with their buddies since WOL.
I am starting to think it has competitive prospects though. Archon mode is mechanically easier than 1v1. It requires significantly less muscle memory and practice than 1v1 to approach optimal macro/micro mechanics. That means that newer players can get into archon mode and actually do cool things with less practice. Of course, it's still difficult to be good and there's tons of communication and teamwork involved in playing archon mode but it's still a more accessible game mode than 1v1 and probably 2v2 by a long shot. I don't think it's a fair assessment to say archon mode is mechanically easier. It's just different. Even though each player is focusing on less tasks overall, the players can still differentiate their skill by performing each macro/micro task perfectly. There's always something more you can be doing in starcraft. It's not like your keyboard is ever idle. At the end of the day, archon teams will still lose 50% of the time just like any other mode. Its easier because the limits of resource availability is still restricted to a 1v1 matchup despite there being 4 players. Unlike a 2v2, where if you have a weak partner you are facing as much as 400 supply worth of enemy troops, archon mode keeps stakes in the 1v1 world where most bad players either don't micro or don't macro. Archon mode fixes the attention limit of new players by giving them specific tasks needed for 1v1 to work adequately. The upper limits of archon mode is exciting specifically because of the possibility of actual SC2 + Moba qualities it provides. You finally can have someone be able to (as an example) harass with 2-3 clumps of Mutas in 2-6 different locations and not have to worry about defense and macro since someone else is handling that. And the guy playing Macro only needs to say something like "defend 3rd" to automatically recall harass groups from all those locations and have them effectively engage the advancing enemy troops while the ground army is being defensively setup by the macro player. Those upper levels of play will still be unattainable by new players. But to experience SC2 as a baseline--archon mode rocks. Sure, I'll agree it's easier to carry in Archon Mode. But with 2 players of equal skill I think the jury is still out on whether 2v2 isn't just as easy. Archon will always be easier because you only 1 base worth of production being sent against you instead of 2 bases worth of production. EDIT: For clarification--the hardest part of 2v2 and Archon Mode will be the same as in any MOBA; communication. Things are easier to do in a team, this is not in question. Things are easier if less things are able to run at you, this is also not in question. But the skill ceiling of any team based game is several magnitudes higher than ANY 1 player game. Things are easier to do in team. < Not necessarily. Things are easier if less things can run at you. <Not necessarily. the skill ceiling of any team based game is several magnitudes higher than ANY 1 player game. <Disagree. Different kinds of skill. Right out of the gateway with no prep work required, 2v2 is easier to get into. You don't need the same level of coordination with your ally as in Archon mode. You just expand, defend, mass up to 150-200 supply and then a-move with your ally's army in the general direction of the enemy. It usually lags too hard to micro even if you want to. The distribution of responsibilities is very clear. You control your army. He controls his. You don't need to chat at all. Just beacon when you move out. It's two different modes of play which each require their own specific skill sets. I don't think either one is easier.
Here's how archon works for new players.
"Have you played SC2 before?"
"No"
"Let me show you, I'll make you stuff and you fight with them"
"I don't know how"
"Don't worry, I'll control some, and you will get the hang of it"
Here is how 2v2 plays with new people.
"What's going on?"
"Just defend their rush"
"But there's twelve lings!"
"You should have walled off"
"What's a wall off?"
Archon is infinitely easier for new players and is infinitely easier to coordinate. That's because 2v2 requires each player to have some idea how to play the game on their own, and then have to coordinate as opposed to delegating responsibilities.
Single player: an individual handles 100% of required actions, and if he is unable to he dies.
Team Games: an individual handles X% of required actions, and if he is unable to the team is X% weaker overall.
What is difficult about team games is the communication. A different skill, yes, but much harder than mechanical skills. Any engineer can design a bridge--not any engineer can get the funding, manage the employees, manage the vendors, get the permits, and the other million different things you need to communicate with other people to actually build a bridge. Now it takes a lot more skill to design a bridge than it does to tighten a screw--but it takes a lot more skill to manage hundreds of screw tighteners than it does to fiddle on a cad program. Both skills are important, both skills are necessary to everyday life.
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The articles doesn't address the elephant in the room. Starcraft 1 had archon mode but no one played it. So, why do you think it will take off in starcraft 2?
I'm not suggesting that we get rid of it. I think it actually might take off. I believe that starcraft 2 is so much harder than stacraft 1, so that you need 2 people to play effectively. So, archon mode might become popular. But, if it does take off, I think it suggests that starcraft 2 is too difficult as a game.
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On July 30 2015 08:29 CloudyVision wrote:
The articles doesn't address the elephant in the room. Starcraft 1 had archon mode but no one played it. So, why do you think it will take off in starcraft 2?
I'm not suggesting that we get rid of it. I think it actually might take off. I believe that starcraft 2 is so much harder than stacraft 1, so that you need 2 people to play effectively. So, archon mode might become popular. But, if it does take off, I think it suggests that starcraft 2 is too difficult as a game.
BW had a ladder--and no one played it. Now it has replaced inhouse practice for pro-gamers.
Quick Match button is all powerful.
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People didn't play ladder in BW because it was too stressful and hard. It was much more fun to play unlimited resource maps which made the game easier. It was more fun to also play 2v2 or 3v3 so that if you lose, you can blame the loss on your bad teammates, not on your lack of skills.
That's partially why I think starcraft 2 isn't as popular. The ranking system creates ladder anxiety so you don't want to play. And, the game is too hard. And, 2v2 and 3v3 games aren't encouraged.
On July 30 2015 08:32 TMagpie wrote:
BW had a ladder--and no one played it. Now it has replaced inhouse practice for pro-gamers.
Quick Match button is all powerful.
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One of the reason the first members of my clan found eachother was the macro/micro arcade maps, which have been around for a while. The only difference is that there, the macro player controls structures and workers, but transfers control of all army units to the macro players as they are made. Why no mention of these awesome maps, which clarely inspired this game mode?
Me and a clanmate, we both reached platinum tryharding, were the dream team at this, because my strength was always macro while his was micro. Working as a team, however, we regularly beat master players, so qxc, I have some serious doubts you could hold off 2 mid-masters players 2v1, if they know what they are doing.
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On July 30 2015 08:29 CloudyVision wrote:
The articles doesn't address the elephant in the room. Starcraft 1 had archon mode but no one played it. So, why do you think it will take off in starcraft 2?
I'm not suggesting that we get rid of it. I think it actually might take off. I believe that starcraft 2 is so much harder than stacraft 1, so that you need 2 people to play effectively. So, archon mode might become popular. But, if it does take off, I think it suggests that starcraft 2 is too difficult as a game.
Our understanding of RTS games has drastically shifted since broodwar. Broodwar is, without question, the harder of the two games, but we also didn't really 'get' it back then. Now that the community has a better understanding of the game being so incredibly difficult and that being a barrier of entry, archon mode fills a crucial role to lowering said barrier.
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On August 01 2015 04:10 Slydie wrote:
One of the reason the first members of my clan found eachother was the macro/micro arcade maps, which have been around for a while. The only difference is that there, the macro player controls structures and workers, but transfers control of all army units to the macro players as they are made. Why no mention of these awesome maps, which clarely inspired this game mode?
Me and a clanmate, we both reached platinum tryharding, were the dream team at this, because my strength was always macro while his was micro. Working as a team, however, we regularly beat master players, so qxc, I have some serious doubts you could hold off 2 mid-masters players 2v1, if they know what they are doing.
I am confident I could beat 2 mid-masters players. If anyone would like to take this challenge you can pm me and set up a time
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On August 01 2015 05:12 qxc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2015 04:10 Slydie wrote:
One of the reason the first members of my clan found eachother was the macro/micro arcade maps, which have been around for a while. The only difference is that there, the macro player controls structures and workers, but transfers control of all army units to the macro players as they are made. Why no mention of these awesome maps, which clarely inspired this game mode?
Me and a clanmate, we both reached platinum tryharding, were the dream team at this, because my strength was always macro while his was micro. Working as a team, however, we regularly beat master players, so qxc, I have some serious doubts you could hold off 2 mid-masters players 2v1, if they know what they are doing. I am confident I could beat 2 mid-masters players. If anyone would like to take this challenge you can pm me and set up a time
mmmmm <3 hope we get to watch (we a bit pervy I admit  )
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I just read your post now. After a long hiatus from SC2 in favor of other team based games, i think this is the only thing that they could have done, that gets me back into the game - Seriously.
The anti-social part of the ladder was a huge problem and since i enjoyed playing 2v2 or 3v3 with my buddies, this is just a natural step towards a balanced game. 2v2 or 3v3 are not fun - the maps are not balanced towards ... well ... anything. Archon Mode is the only thing that combines a neat gameplay experience and "doing something with friends".
I doubt, i'll ever play 1v1 again, but Archon? This is more likely.
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EPT
