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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On May 09 2015 16:12 Meavis wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HToZwYH.jpg) but for real, perm me, TLMC is still treated as a joke apparently. User was banned for this post. There's never been a better way to express disgust with SC2 and/or the community than with a blue hair chan reaction image. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On May 09 2015 16:12 Meavis wrote: + Show Spoiler + but for real, perm me, TLMC is still treated as a joke apparently. User was banned for this post. Pretty epic 1000th post. But why so salty? You have a mech terran guide in your sig, atleast that strategy should not have any problems in this map as far as i can tell. Anyway some people might be wrong about this, but it actually is a very non standard map. That means that not me, not you, not any progamer on earth can really tell is it balanced or not. Just FYI it takes about 50 000 high level games, or in other words 4 months for things to get "figured out." Thats why balance patches are usually given good time to settle down before the game is repatched. | ||
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JPR
Netherlands25 Posts
On May 09 2015 18:25 Pyloss wrote: And finaly some more green maps <3 You said green maps? This is a green map. To call these maps green would be an insult to the colour and all those that worship it. @the finalists: Congratulations! As others have already observed there are indeed a lot of backdoors and it will be interesting to see how that pans out. And yes it would have been nice to know that we should be pushing for more non-standard maps. Next TLMC I suppose. Some intereresting maps though. Because of the non-standardness I have some trouble evaluating some of the maps. Lots of weird dynamics going on but I'm thrilled to see how they pan out in the TL OPEN. There are a lot of questions I have regarding how some of the maps work. Including how the collapsable rock towers work in ecosphere, are some of them linked (their HP), and if so which ones? And is the highground around the main in bridgehead pathable? I assume not, because that would seem quite broken. I should probably fire up these maps to check, but I think I'll tune in to some of the TL OPEN action tomorrow to check instead. | ||
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Shkudde
Netherlands709 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On May 09 2015 22:05 Plexa wrote: The high ground around the main on Bridghead is not pathable. Yeah just tested and saw my self. Neither is the the high ground above the third. BUT THE HIGH GROUND INSIDE THE MAIN IS. All thou all of these high grounds are aestetically exactly the same, exept the high ground inside the main is much narrower making it seem that it might not be. Is this the case of mapper forgetting to put pathing blockers to the area or is this just somekind of joke? EDIT: speaking of of forgetting pathing blockers, i love how there are small pathable spots between these said highgrounds and doodas literally everywhere on the map (like 4-8 behind bases). Meaning you can drop small units like marines, sentries and marauders there. I know that the maps are subject to change but come on, i would expect them to be atleast somewhat mechanicly polished seeing how much time the mapper used on making the map good looking. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 09 2015 21:49 NasusAndDraven wrote: Pretty epic 1000th post. But why so salty? You have a mech terran guide in your sig, atleast that strategy should not have any problems in this map as far as i can tell. Anyway some people might be wrong about this, but it actually is a very non standard map. That means that not me, not you, not any progamer on earth can really tell is it balanced or not. Just FYI it takes about 50 000 high level games, or in other words 4 months for things to get "figured out." Thats why balance patches are usually given good time to settle down before the game is repatched. This is about Terraform, right? Could you elaborate what you think is so non-standard about this map? I feel like this one is the most standard in the whole contest. Only this one and Ecosphere seem to allow for standard 3-4 base setups without much shennanigans. Besides the middle and the sizes of its paths/chokes, I don't even see much that could fundamentally break the map. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On May 09 2015 22:28 Big J wrote: This is about Terraform, right? Could you elaborate what you think is so non-standard about this map? I feel like this one is the most standard in the whole contest. Only this one and Ecosphere seem to allow for standard 3-4 base setups without much shennanigans. Besides the middle and the sizes of its paths/chokes, I don't even see much that could fundamentally break the map. Like you said, the middle. Also from attackers point of view, enemy on 3 bases is not typical at all (see attack paths, and the distance you must go between different entrances.) But the gimmick of the map (making pathways by mining out bases) changes the pretty drasticly. And for terrans atleast, I see that mining the gold base from the wrong side might be a viable option, making it an option for 4th base. | ||
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 09 2015 22:17 NasusAndDraven wrote: Yeah just tested and saw my self. Neither is the the high ground above the third. BUT THE HIGH GROUND INSIDE THE MAIN IS. All thou all of these high grounds are aestetically exactly the same, exept the high ground inside the main is much narrower making it seem that it might not be. Is this the case of mapper forgetting to put pathing blockers to the area or is this just somekind of joke? EDIT: speaking of of forgetting pathing blockers, i love how there are small pathable spots between these said highgrounds and doodas literally everywhere on the map (like 4-8 behind bases). Meaning you can drop small units like marines, sentries and marauders there. I know that the maps are subject to change but come on, i would expect them to be atleast somewhat mechanicly polished seeing how much time the mapper used on making the map good looking. Will look into this. Thanks for pointing it out. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
Too bad Iezael who made Azura got screwed by the lack of informations we had about what kind of map blizzard was looking for. It would be nice if we could have more informations about that next time. I am mostly ok with what maps won, but I too am a touch salty (admittedly) about the lack of information. Had I (and likely many other mappers) known they were looking for exclusively weird maps (which is fine! I am probably the biggest supporter of weird maps since day 1 - see my countless posts in the past supporting their inclusion) we would have certainly sent in different maps than we did. If you look at the last TLMC one would have thought somewhat standard maps with minor twists are what they are looking for. I only wasted 1 of my submissions on a standard-ish map (my other 2 were definitely weird) so I don't know how it would have really affected my chances but some very good/notable mappers (better than me) sent in 2 or even 3 standard-ish maps and probably got screwed out of a spot because of it. A little transparency.. perhaps a theme or thing(s) blizzard/judges are looking for, stated on the TLMC contest rules page, would be excellent in future contests. Cheers! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 09 2015 22:36 NasusAndDraven wrote: Like you said, the middle. Also from attackers point of view, enemy on 3 bases is not typical at all (see attack paths, and the distance you must go between different entrances.) But the gimmick of the map (making pathways by mining out bases) changes the pretty drasticly. And for terrans atleast, I see that mining the gold base from the wrong side might be a viable option, making it an option for 4th base. I think the main problem with the unusual main attack paths is for zerg, no? The other races probably have less problems using those chokes to their advantage. Also I think we have had maps with much more defensive set ups too, Echo comes to mind where there really is just one area to attack into a 3basing oppponent and it isn't open either. Then of course real turtle-maps like Vaani or Deadwing also don't give you any choices were to attack from ground. Regardless, here is a picture how I think the (red) attacker could maneuver to create a somewhat normal aggressive setup into natural, 3rd and 4th. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YJVZdEQ.jpg) Also, the mining out bases towards the middle seem to be a rare scenario, no? Most of the time you are going to take the other bases because of harass from the other side. Maybe if you are Terran against Zerg and possibly Protoss pushing the way I describe could reduce the counterattack abilities from the (blue) defender. But for most matchups, you are going to set up normally with the bases on the edges of the map and the middle bases only start to come into play when games get really long. Thus, most games should just be rather normal unless the middle maneuvering really gets into the way of standard play. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
On May 09 2015 23:32 SoulmaN__ wrote: I actually don't like any of the maps. 4th bases aren't good on any of the maps, sometimes even naturals and 3rd bases are risky... This is Starcraft 2, not Ressource Mining Simulator 2015. Risky bases are a good thing | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
p.s. strongly dissaprove all the maps. Huge disappointment. | ||
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SoulmaN__
Germany80 Posts
On May 09 2015 23:40 algue wrote: This is Starcraft 2, not Ressource Mining Simulator 2015. Risky bases are a good thing There's a reason we went away from Xel Naga caverns and such. | ||
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NasusAndDraven
359 Posts
On May 09 2015 23:10 Big J wrote: + Show Spoiler + I think the main problem with the unusual main attack paths is for zerg, no? The other races probably have less problems using those chokes to their advantage. Also I think we have had maps with much more defensive set ups too, Echo comes to mind where there really is just one area to attack into a 3basing oppponent and it isn't open either. Then of course real turtle-maps like Vaani or Deadwing also don't give you any choices were to attack from ground. Regardless, here is a picture how I think the (red) attacker could maneuver to create a somewhat normal aggressive setup into natural, 3rd and 4th. Also, the mining out bases towards the middle seem to be a rare scenario, no? Most of the time you are going to take the other bases because of harass from the other side. Maybe if you are Terran against Zerg and possibly Protoss pushing the way I describe could reduce the counterattack abilities from the (blue) defender. But for most matchups, you are going to set up normally with the bases on the edges of the map and the middle bases only start to come into play when games get really long. Thus, most games should just be rather normal unless the middle maneuvering really gets into the way of standard play. Im not saying that the 3 bases on the map are exeptionally easy to defend. I just say that they are pretty easy to defend, and the defense mechanisms get changed pretty hard if center bases get mined out. Anyway you had your picture which i quite dont understand so here is mine. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rDvs0hR.png) Okay so both attacker and defender are on 3 bases, there is no question which are the first 3 bases for either player. And the game tends to work in a way that players generally keep their main army between their 2nd and 3rd base, or near enemy choke when attacking. This is a very common scenario you should see in quite alot of games. Now attacker has few theoretically possible attack paths. A. Quite long, and leads into a pretty harsh choke (2gates+1pylon wide) B. The shortest attack path, but the tightest choke. C. Quite short attack path, but barely has any choke for the defender to make advantage of (4gateways as tightest spot) D. Longest attack path, must attack upramp in semi wide ramps, but a somewhat viable flank option. So obviously C is the main attack you are going to see being used in vast majority of major engagements. Making a flank combining different attack paths is not really viable since you must go so long way around the map for it. Exeption is the Ds split path. Now you believe that you have map control and are the aggressive player. Which 4th base you want to take? Notice the difference of distances of sending units to defend bases if enemy tries to harass with drops/air units/runby units. Yeah maybe taking the middle 4th does not seem so bad after all. And ofc if enemy is going hardcore turtle you take the gold base. Honestly i think it should be pretty balanced for all races to defend the area behind mineral line. After all there have been tons maps with "harass areas" behind 4th bases (like tal darim altar), and all races have been able to clear them out pretty nicely. There might be some unmentioned advantages to taking the corner 4th instead, but not going to play devils advocate here. Just going to say that if i was in charge I would make the corner bases either further away from 3rd, or an island base, to force the players even more to take the middle bases. This would mean a greater effect on the maps gimmick. And if players take middle bases then it should not play out like a standart map at all. | ||
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neteX
Sweden285 Posts
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Rukis
United States252 Posts
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