On March 25 2015 10:51 showstealer1829 wrote: I'm just looking at this vid from a casual observer, definitely no expert on Progamers or what they go through. I'll try not to let what I've read in this thread bias me. Timestamps are from the video itself, not game time
3:50 - MK's scout reaches Byul's base, BARELY missing the second drone leaving
4:05 - MK sees the late pool, single gas and clearly reacts with a "WTF?" reaction, not saying he can't have acted but he's clearly trying to figure out
4:25 - The scout passes the gold on the way home and sees nothing, MK may not have been looking at the time to be fair but being progamer, that's highly unlikely
4.33 - The reaper moves for the SCV building the factory and sees the spine right at the corner of vision, it should be on his minimap as a red dot (Moonglade tells us later in vid that he was seeing it as red on MK's vision)
4:41 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap, without FPV it's impossible to tell what he's looking at but it seems like he's looking where the map should be to me. The reapers start to move out then MK changes his mind, but they seem to be in the rally spot for a ling bane rush
5:02: MK rolls his head and takes a deep breath, is he thinking about what he's actually about to do (If he is indeed guilty) or is he just simply genuinely unsure? He adds the reactor to his factory
5:23 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap AGAIN. Again it's impossible to tell and I'm only speculating but his look appears to be confusion more than anything sinister
5:27 - Creep enters the base and MK starts the fateful 3rd CC, at this point it looks like MK is glancing at his keyboard to group units and not the map so there's every possibility he just never saw it
5:46 - The reaper comes up and sees the creep and MK's reaction looks to be a genuine "WTF?". He might be a very good actor I grant that but he does genuinely look shocked.
And from there it's academic
Do I think given the evidence of the betting it looks suspicious? No doubt.
Do I think a pro gamer like MK SHOULD have seen the spine and dealt with it? Absolutely
Do I think he did and chose to ignore it because of matchfixing? Honestly? No. I just don't buy he's that good an actor and he looks genuinely shocked when he realises his error.
There has to be some other explanation, something going on in the background of his life that's distracting him, which raises the question. Why did MVP field him in the first place?
The things you don't point out in your attempt at being not biased is his reaction times on things, and to me, this is the most important aspect of being a pro-gamer. The ability to adapt and react on the spot when the time calls. The fact that he scouts it, and it only takes a fraction of a second to process what he has seen, but proceeds to do nothing for such an incredibly long duration of time while literally doing NOTHING else seems too bizarre for my tastes as a player.
But the weirdness doesn't stop there. Even if you were to grant he didn't see it, even if you were to grant that maybe he was looking at his keyboard, maybe even grant that he is the greedy guy he is... the thing that absolutely makes no sense to me is that he has plain as day view of creep inside his base during the construction of the 3rd cc and he doesn't cancel it. The time stamps for this is perhaps a little earlier than 5:30 - 5:58 in game time. ANY PLAYER above high masters would immediately have thrown down either bunkers, production or whatever, but the certainly would have tried to play the game out, as it isn't immediately lost at that point. I mean hell, he even knows the other person is 1 base at that point, he could literally relocate from the spines and play it out that way. The fact that the CC proceeds such a long duration into its build time either means 1 of 2 things to me. 1) He instantaneously gave up from that moment. or 2) There is some fishy fishies in the sea here.
Again, even if you are to grant that there is some way in hell this is not what it appears to be, though when all reason seems to suggest that it is it is just statistically more likely it is what you think it is, then MK definitely needs to take a break from proleague. This game, if legitimate, is probably the lowest tier game I've ever seen in sc2 proleague. Of course, this doesn't instantly make him guilty as it is possible, somehow(?) he did manage to mess up all these things. But to even suggest that there doesn't need to be an investigation would just be pure negligence. This is ... very odd to say the least.
As it has been stated in the thread already, this stuff has been around for quite some time and if action is in fact taken it could spell some serious issues for SC2 in Korea. That said, I'd rather risk the reduced viewership/sponsorship options than have the top tier players in the world fabricating games.
On March 25 2015 10:51 showstealer1829 wrote: I'm just looking at this vid from a casual observer, definitely no expert on Progamers or what they go through. I'll try not to let what I've read in this thread bias me. Timestamps are from the video itself, not game time
3:50 - MK's scout reaches Byul's base, BARELY missing the second drone leaving
4:05 - MK sees the late pool, single gas and clearly reacts with a "WTF?" reaction, not saying he can't have acted but he's clearly trying to figure out
4:25 - The scout passes the gold on the way home and sees nothing, MK may not have been looking at the time to be fair but being progamer, that's highly unlikely
4.33 - The reaper moves for the SCV building the factory and sees the spine right at the corner of vision, it should be on his minimap as a red dot (Moonglade tells us later in vid that he was seeing it as red on MK's vision)
4:41 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap, without FPV it's impossible to tell what he's looking at but it seems like he's looking where the map should be to me. The reapers start to move out then MK changes his mind, but they seem to be in the rally spot for a ling bane rush
5:02: MK rolls his head and takes a deep breath, is he thinking about what he's actually about to do (If he is indeed guilty) or is he just simply genuinely unsure? He adds the reactor to his factory
5:23 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap AGAIN. Again it's impossible to tell and I'm only speculating but his look appears to be confusion more than anything sinister
5:27 - Creep enters the base and MK starts the fateful 3rd CC, at this point it looks like MK is glancing at his keyboard to group units and not the map so there's every possibility he just never saw it
5:46 - The reaper comes up and sees the creep and MK's reaction looks to be a genuine "WTF?". He might be a very good actor I grant that but he does genuinely look shocked.
And from there it's academic
Do I think given the evidence of the betting it looks suspicious? No doubt.
Do I think a pro gamer like MK SHOULD have seen the spine and dealt with it? Absolutely
Do I think he did and chose to ignore it because of matchfixing? Honestly? No. I just don't buy he's that good an actor and he looks genuinely shocked when he realises his error.
There has to be some other explanation, something going on in the background of his life that's distracting him, which raises the question. Why did MVP field him in the first place?
The things you don't point out in your attempt at being not biased is his reaction times on things, and to me, this is the most important aspect of being a pro-gamer. The ability to adapt and react on the spot when the time calls. The fact that he scouts it, and it only takes a fraction of a second to process what he has seen, but proceeds to do nothing for such an incredibly long duration of time while literally doing NOTHING else seems too bizarre for my tastes as a player.
But the weirdness doesn't stop there. Even if you were to grant he didn't see it, even if you were to grant that maybe he was looking at his keyboard, maybe even grant that he is the greedy guy he is... the thing that absolutely makes no sense to me is that he has plain as day view of creep inside his base during the construction of the 3rd cc and he doesn't cancel it. ANY PLAYER above high masters would immediately have thrown down either bunkers, production or whatever, but the certainly would have tried to play the game out, as it isn't immediately lost at that point. I mean hell, he even knows the other person is 1 base at that point, he could literally relocate from the spines and play it out that way. The fact that the CC proceeds such a long duration into its build time either means 1 of 2 things to me. 1) He instantaneously gave up from that moment. or 2) There is some fishy fishies in the sea here.
Again, even if you are to grant that there is some way in hell this is not what it appears to be, though when all reason seems to suggest that it is it is just statistically more likely it is what you think it is, then MK definitely needs to take a break from proleague. This game, if legitimate, is probably the lowest tier game I've ever seen in sc2 proleague. Of course, this doesn't instantly make him guilty as it is possible, somehow(?) he did manage to mess up all these things. But to even suggest that there doesn't need to be an investigation would just be pure negligence. This is ... very odd to say the least.
As it has been stated in the thread already, this stuff has been around for quite some time and if action is in fact taken it could spell some serious issues for SC2 in Korea. That said, I'd rather risk the reduced viewership/sponsorship options than have the top tier players in the world fabricating games.
I never said there should not be an investigation, I just don't believe MK is that good an actor and to me he looks genuinely surprised when the reaper finds the creep in his base.
Of course there should be an investigation to erase all doubt but I refuse to believe "He fixed it" is the ONLY possible explantion, there simply has to be another, however unlikely it may be to some we're not seeing.
If it were anyone else I'd think it was matchfixing. However, MarineKing looks absolutely stunned when he finally gets vision of the creep in his base. Furthermore he microes his heart out trying to hold against the attack.
Maybe MK though the spine was an overlord on the mini map? Fog of war notwithstanding, perhaps in his mind he "decided" it was an overlord and ignored it thereafter in spite of it not making sense, playing more or less on autopilot.
Edit: Nevermind, I see this has been brought up already.
Okay so I have watched the game and at 4:01 when the scv scouts the main marine king leans in closer to the screen, most likely checking the minimap to see if he missed a hatchery. Is it confirmed his glasses are merely for appearance?
I thought his reactions were suspicious as his scv scout and reaper didnt check anywhere for a proxy hatch. I did find a replay of me vs marine king on overgrowth where i 15hatched his gold and he did the same thing he did in this game except he made bunkers at his natural, so I guess it is possible he just misread the situation.
Honestly it could go either way, but I do not see it as convincing enough.
On March 25 2015 11:17 Hier wrote: Maybe MK though the spine was an overlord on the mini map? Fog of war notwithstanding, perhaps in his mind he "decided" it was an overlord and ignored it thereafter in spite of it not making sense, playing more or less on autopilot.
Edit: Nevermind, I see this has been brought up already.
He scouts the pool and gas timing, he KNOWS there has to be a hatch somewhere pretty much. So you either assume MKP assumed that Byul is a total noob and just forgot to macro the first few minutes, or it makes no sense for him to not scout with his reapers.
On March 25 2015 11:13 alexanderzero wrote: If it were anyone else I'd think it was matchfixing. However, MarineKing looks absolutely stunned when he finally gets vision of the creep in his base. Furthermore he microes his heart out trying to hold against the attack.
If he's matchfixing - why wouldn't he micro his heart out? The better he sells it while losing, the less suspicions it'll look.
On March 25 2015 07:50 Dumbledore wrote: MK posted on FB: "토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ"
On March 25 2015 07:50 Dumbledore wrote: MK posted on FB: "토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ"
Well, Rekrul's turned up, and things are beginning to look very, very familiar...
A few points:
(1): The fact that match-fixing is likely going on at some level in the Korean SC2 scene is not too shocking. Both because match-fixing is a thing that afflicts all sports at one time or other, and because the Kespa system has issues that make this kind of thing much, much more likely. The conditions of team houses, salaries, B-teamers, etc are basically the same as when the match-fixing scandal hit BW. The Korean SC2 scene had a brief attempt to create a "kinder, gentler scene" in the early days of WoL, but by now, it's largely back to the Kespa standard. There's a reason why a lot of us BW veterans hated Kespa back in the day, and it's not just because of stupid refereeing rules. Put simply and in a vastly understated fashion, the system is not kind to players. This creates problems.
(2): We don't really know how common the match-fixing is. Rekrul knows his stuff, but 'rampant' almost certainly involves hyperbole and speculation. There's no reason to immediately jump to accusing every player who played a bad game. In the end, the BW scandal turned out to be much more contained than a lot of people initially thought.
(3): Big stars and currently popular players are almost certainly not involved in this. As Rekrul said, this is the kind of thing that mid-level players with little prospects of making much money do--this was also generally the case in the BW scandal. No big stars were involved with the exception of Savior, who was by that time essentially a low-level player whose glory days were years behind him. So Maru, Life, Dream, Parting, etc, should be overwhelmingly presumed innocent. Marineking is definitely possible, though I think intrinsically more unlikely than a lot of other people.
(4): The biggest issue, as Rekrul said, is if this blows up publicly in Korea. That, much more than the actual fixing (which was pretty limited) was what eventually came close to killing off the Korean BW scene. I'm pretty sure that's going to be the case here as well.
(3): On the bright side, if this ever blows up publicly, I can always make another set of progamer conversations. That was fun.
I'm not liking these "why wouldn't MKP do this" or that, etc, framed questions. Wtf kind of answer do you expect? He made poor decisions, he choked, his hands were shaking, etc.? Does that satisfy you? Asking a player "why did you not see the spine crawler that was on your minimap" means nothing because if he didn't see it, he didn't see it.
Might as well ask JD, during the below match, why did you not just look at your minimap and notice your hydralisks all piling on top of each other? Why did you not move your drones? Were you supposed to lose this match but changed your mind? Why JD why?
Yes, a situation where JD has to be all over the map is just the same as an early game situation where literally nothing happens. The only way todays match would have been more suspicius is if Byul had proxied right next to mkp's command center
On March 25 2015 10:51 showstealer1829 wrote: I'm just looking at this vid from a casual observer, definitely no expert on Progamers or what they go through. I'll try not to let what I've read in this thread bias me. Timestamps are from the video itself, not game time
3:50 - MK's scout reaches Byul's base, BARELY missing the second drone leaving
4:05 - MK sees the late pool, single gas and clearly reacts with a "WTF?" reaction, not saying he can't have acted but he's clearly trying to figure out
4:25 - The scout passes the gold on the way home and sees nothing, MK may not have been looking at the time to be fair but being progamer, that's highly unlikely
4.33 - The reaper moves for the SCV building the factory and sees the spine right at the corner of vision, it should be on his minimap as a red dot (Moonglade tells us later in vid that he was seeing it as red on MK's vision)
4:41 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap, without FPV it's impossible to tell what he's looking at but it seems like he's looking where the map should be to me. The reapers start to move out then MK changes his mind, but they seem to be in the rally spot for a ling bane rush
5:02: MK rolls his head and takes a deep breath, is he thinking about what he's actually about to do (If he is indeed guilty) or is he just simply genuinely unsure? He adds the reactor to his factory
5:23 - MK APPEARS to look at the minimap AGAIN. Again it's impossible to tell and I'm only speculating but his look appears to be confusion more than anything sinister
5:27 - Creep enters the base and MK starts the fateful 3rd CC, at this point it looks like MK is glancing at his keyboard to group units and not the map so there's every possibility he just never saw it
5:46 - The reaper comes up and sees the creep and MK's reaction looks to be a genuine "WTF?". He might be a very good actor I grant that but he does genuinely look shocked.
And from there it's academic
Do I think given the evidence of the betting it looks suspicious? No doubt.
Do I think a pro gamer like MK SHOULD have seen the spine and dealt with it? Absolutely
Do I think he did and chose to ignore it because of matchfixing? Honestly? No. I just don't buy he's that good an actor and he looks genuinely shocked when he realises his error.
There has to be some other explanation, something going on in the background of his life that's distracting him, which raises the question. Why did MVP field him in the first place?
The things you don't point out in your attempt at being not biased is his reaction times on things, and to me, this is the most important aspect of being a pro-gamer. The ability to adapt and react on the spot when the time calls. The fact that he scouts it, and it only takes a fraction of a second to process what he has seen, but proceeds to do nothing for such an incredibly long duration of time while literally doing NOTHING else seems too bizarre for my tastes as a player.
But the weirdness doesn't stop there. Even if you were to grant he didn't see it, even if you were to grant that maybe he was looking at his keyboard, maybe even grant that he is the greedy guy he is... the thing that absolutely makes no sense to me is that he has plain as day view of creep inside his base during the construction of the 3rd cc and he doesn't cancel it. ANY PLAYER above high masters would immediately have thrown down either bunkers, production or whatever, but the certainly would have tried to play the game out, as it isn't immediately lost at that point. I mean hell, he even knows the other person is 1 base at that point, he could literally relocate from the spines and play it out that way. The fact that the CC proceeds such a long duration into its build time either means 1 of 2 things to me. 1) He instantaneously gave up from that moment. or 2) There is some fishy fishies in the sea here.
Again, even if you are to grant that there is some way in hell this is not what it appears to be, though when all reason seems to suggest that it is it is just statistically more likely it is what you think it is, then MK definitely needs to take a break from proleague. This game, if legitimate, is probably the lowest tier game I've ever seen in sc2 proleague. Of course, this doesn't instantly make him guilty as it is possible, somehow(?) he did manage to mess up all these things. But to even suggest that there doesn't need to be an investigation would just be pure negligence. This is ... very odd to say the least.
As it has been stated in the thread already, this stuff has been around for quite some time and if action is in fact taken it could spell some serious issues for SC2 in Korea. That said, I'd rather risk the reduced viewership/sponsorship options than have the top tier players in the world fabricating games.
I never said there should not be an investigation, I just don't believe MK is that good an actor and to me he looks genuinely surprised when the reaper finds the creep in his base.
Of course there should be an investigation to erase all doubt but I refuse to believe "He fixed it" is the ONLY possible explantion, there simply has to be another, however unlikely it may be to some we're not seeing.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you said there should not be an investigation. I was more stating it as a generality that of course there should be and anyone who says otherwise really does not want to see the situation concluded in any reasonable way.
edit 2:
On March 25 2015 11:36 Deathstar wrote: I'm not liking these "why wouldn't MKP do this" or that, etc, framed questions. Wtf kind of answer do you expect? He made poor decisions, he choked, his hands were shaking, etc.? Does that satisfy you? Asking a player "why did you not see the spine crawler that was on your minimap" means nothing because if he didn't see it, he didn't see it.
Might as well ask JD, during the below match, why did you not just look at your minimap and notice your hydralisks all piling on top of each other? Why did you not move your drones? Were you supposed to lose this match but changed your mind? Why JD why?
You are asking the wrong question. It's not 'how did you not?' it's 'how could you not have?' The difference between this game and that game is that BW games get incredibly expansive and if you look at the phase of the game it was in JD was doing an incredible number of things besides controlling hyrdas, they even show this. He has nydus/lurkers/dt control w/ ovies/ consuming for energy on new units/spellcasters etc etc etc. MK is literally sitting in his base doing nothing. So when you say 'he made a poor decision' maybe that decision was to like, maybe, close his eyes or something?
It's totally different if he like reacts to it delayed or something but what you are attempting to get me to believe from a pro-player, who is much better than me and I can't even recall a time I've scouted a proxy and not reacted at all, seems... pretty BS...
I think when we're honest about what we're seeing we shouldn't let ourselves be blinded by our love for this game. I remember reading about the scandals in BW and this is more obvious than many of the thrown matches we've seen through the years.
Not necessarily attempting to defend MKP here, but one has to wonder how much he has practiced SC2 in the past few weeks and months. His play has steadily deteriorated game after game, and it's reasonably possible that he simply no longer practice SC2 consistently enough to have the awareness which he should have displayed in the last game. The most telling factor is not the fact that his minimap showed the spine crawler but rather he scouted the pool timing with no expansion (also scouted the gold base), yet he chose to keep his sole reaper in his base as opposed to having it roam all over the place in search for a proxy or hidden hatchery. It appeared to me that he was extremely confused on the build which he is facing against, and probably deduced that the opponent is doing one base all in through his front door.
On March 25 2015 12:02 Lockdown- wrote: I think when we're honest about what we're seeing we shouldn't let ourselves be blinded by our love for this game. I remember reading about the scandals in BW and this is more obvious than many of the thrown matches we've seen through the years.
I don't believe anyone here is denying that there is a match fix problem. What some are suggesting is whether MKP is part of it or not with his latest display.
On March 25 2015 12:10 jellyjello wrote: Not necessarily attempting to defend MKP here, but one has to wonder how much he has practiced SC2 in the past few weeks and months. His play has steadily deteriorated game after game, and it's reasonably possible that he simply no longer practice SC2 consistently enough to have the awareness which he should have displayed in the last game. The most telling factor is not the fact that his minimap showed the spine crawler but rather he scouted the pool timing with no expansion (also scouted the gold base), yet he chose to keep his sole reaper in his base as opposed to having it roam all over the place in search for a proxy or hidden hatchery. It appeared to me that he was extremely confused on the build which he is facing against, and probably deduced that the opponent is doing one base all in through his front door.
Sadly with the way MarineKing plays this behavior isn't even inconsistent. He tends to make assumptions and use his intuition rather than scout and figure out what is going on.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there was matchfixing involved.
This is so shite...I mean it is close to impossible to argue this was not a throw...its early game...his whole attention is in his base and the minimap... and that reaction of astonishment is 1minute too late...
Love MK but either way he is done for - his career is over...even if this was not a throw (5% chance that it was not - 95% chance it was - IMO) the plays he made were pathetic and not worthy of proleague at all.
That whole 3cc play or die is pathetic too - stubbornly sticking to shite like that is useless.
Was great to watch you play MK - all the best with whatever is next for you.
EPT
