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On March 21 2015 05:58 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. back then 2k-2k was even more amazing because twitch's ecosystem of viewers was a lot smaller it's worse when you consider relative to other games on twitch, SC2 had a much larger chunk of the pie and the chat activity.
You really have to specificy "back then". Because when I think of "back then", I think of Starcraft II sitting at 3k viewers and being #1 on Twitch with that.
After that its pretty much identical to right now, with Starcraft II being solid middle at 5k - 10kish.
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Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
Because they aren't really viewers and him being at the top is a fruity illusion. If his stream was that good then the only thing preventing him from achieving the #1 spot honestly was a lack of patience.
Also it's probably been said many times already but most people seem to agree that the quality of his stream declined pretty steadily the more popular he appeared to become.
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On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either.
Idra at his best had 15k or more. 11k was when sc2 started to fall down and then it was worse and worse. I do watch numbers closely, that's my thing and I know what I am talking about. How many sc2 streamers have over 1k per day? not many. Back then players like Dimaga or kas 1k-2k. TLO or White-ra 2k-4k. MouzMana - 2k. Demuslim same thing for quite time, it wasn't just novelty.
Normaly I would write dead game but Lotv is coming and Kespa made a move in Korea so I do have hope it will be better.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
1) He's GM? So? GM means nothing^^
2) and 3) are entirely your opinion.
I watch only good players (and mario^^mech will rise again) because i like to see how this game is supposed to be played. I never really watched Winter because of that, he doesnt have the level required to educate and entertain me.
However as you mentioned it, for "a new user" or casual players, it might be a good experience.
It's really frustrating to see good/pro players barely reach 200 viewers when winter has 1k....because they "survive"(seriously?) also with streaming income.
BUT
the drama was about someone who had suspicious viewbot activity for a long time on his stream, won money because of his number of viewers(blizzard award) and always did nothing about this issue (and ban if u mentionned it according to a lot of pple).
At some point, repercussions were bound to happen.
My personal opinion about winter is only based on seeing him several times smurfing which is, still according to my personal opinion, the worst thing even before cheating. So...
Also if you lack social skills ( "a korean one where they don't understand anything." ) dont blame the others please.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
The bashing based on viewbots (If true) is completely justified as it is an unfair method to boost yourself on twitch. You get a huge influx of viewers by sitting higher up on twitch and in the case of SC2 you get the added benefit of being seen if people click on SC2 to find streams as well. Really couldn't care less if it's his living or not.
On the other hand, I don't quite understand why people are so surprised that a non-pro player could acquire a huge fanbase. (Btw, Desrow and Maximusblack have the most viewers for the featured TL SC2 streams at the moment.). Hell, take a look at most top twitch streams nowadays, emote spam, constant commentary, massive hugbox chat communities etc. Winter just simply used that in conjunction with an SC2 stream.
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On March 21 2015 11:38 Coypirus wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand what the deal is with all the drama.
Winter is:
1) Masters-GM player
2) Entertaining
3) Educational
If anything, him having large amounts of viewers is good for Starcraft. If a new user goes to a starcraft stream they have a higher chance of going to his stream instead of a boring one or a korean one where they don't understand anything. Honestly, it's really disheartening to see so many people, including some of my favorite players, just join in and bash him. Remember, this is his LIVING. This is how he survives! And he does it better than most streamers, so why shouldn't he be at the top?
What is there to not understand? Twitch doesn't have an effective means to determine whose content is better than others. At the moment, there method is to use views. If Winter's content was genuinely better than most streamers, then he wouldn't need to use viewbots to inflate his numbers. However, with Twitch its easy to create an illusion that his content is better.
And its your subjective opinion he is entertaining, educational, and better than most streamers. When I watch his stream, I find he is neither any of those.
As well, I don't care if this is his living. If it was his living, he would put in the effort to make his product/content better. He wouldn't try to scam his way into making a living.
To answer your last question, he shouldn't be at the top because he doesn't genuinely deserve it. Maybe in your opinion he deserves it, but for all we know you are Winter that created a new TL account because the only solution you understand is trickery.
Winter, if you are reading this comment, please understand we aren't trying to bash you. We aren't haters that want to take you down.
We are your potential audience, and if you really want to capture our attention, you need to create better content without the need to abuse view bots.
The problem is now your potential audience (us) are sceptical of your content. During your artificial rise on Twitch, I gave your stream a chance. I watched you play some games for about 15 minutes. I left because the quality of your content was not great. I can give you a list of feedback, but this isn't the appropriate channel for feedback.
It is not my intention to make you upset, only to give my opinion. Please take it for what its worth.
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At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
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On March 21 2015 15:58 ozyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either. Idra at his best had 15k or more.
[Citation needed] I really don't believe that
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On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously.
He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it.
I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet.
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maximus black has more views than ret and huk combined. wow
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On March 22 2015 04:39 tshi wrote:
maximus black has more views than ret and huk combined. wow
he is casting a tournament.
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On March 22 2015 04:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young! Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously. He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it. I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet.
Understood. Clearly he needs to be educated on the nature of content on the internet. We all do really.
I'm glad TL got involved with this. The matchfixing in PL stuff was so "inside baseball" and involved math, deciding to officially go after Winter is a much more fulfilling witch hunt.
Matchfixing doesn't hurt SC2..... pretending our measily viewer count is higher than it is is whats killing SC2!
We've really saved the shit out of ESPORTS!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 22 2015 04:48 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 04:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young! Lol I assume your comment is satire, but I would like to reply seriously. He has put in a lot of work, and I am not doubting it. To make a living being a streamer is difficult (as in all careers). I commend him for trying, but he chose the wrong route and did not own up to it. I don't want to crucify him, but I do want him to keep trying. I just want him to understand the nature of content on the internet. Understood. Clearly he needs to be educated on the nature of content on the internet. We all do really. I'm glad TL got involved with this. The matchfixing in PL stuff was so "inside baseball" and involved math, deciding to officially go after Winter is a much more fulfilling witch hunt. Matchfixing doesn't hurt SC2..... pretending our measily viewer count is higher than it is is whats killing SC2! We've really saved the shit out of ESPORTS!
I'm not sure what you want TL to do. They don't have access to proleague data on a live or proprietary basis that could allow them to actively seek out matchfixing or illegal gambling machinations with any level of confirmation. Much of the tournament scene is really out of their hands, beyond live reports and hosts posting their tournaments on their own whim. TL does, however, have access to their own livestream featured list. And as that is proprietary to themselves, they have the right to feature or defeature streamers as seem fit.
It is up to you to make toxic sarcasm through the twisting of another commenter's words. Although I don't think that is saving esports either.
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Spect8rCraft, don't bother replying to someone that constantly gets temp banned. Dsousa was never someone to have a serious discussion. I only replied to him because I want to get my point across.
This is not a witch hunt against Winter. Other commenters might believe it is, but I am not grabbing my pitchfork. Don't get me wrong, if I believe a witch hunt is necessary I will encourage others to do the same.
I am trying to provide feedback to Winter. During the last year that I saw his stream views rise, I had suspicions over his use of viewbots. I had no evidence, so I gave him a chance and watched his stream maybe half a dozen times.
Now that evidence was revealed that there is a likely chance Winter did employ viewbots, I feel upset that he received many benefits that he did not deserve, which could have gone to other streamers. Taking those opportunities from other legit streamers makes me upset. Rifkin or Madals deserved a spot on HSC; Winter should not have been invited.
I am upset, but I don't blame him for his actions. The competition on Twitch is incredible, as is all endeavours on the Internet. For him to abuse viewbots is only expected, and I don't think he is the only streamer to cheat his way to +10k viewers. Its incredibly tempting to take the easy way out.
Another problem is the trust the sponsors have to other SC2 streamers. Nvidia took a huge chance giving a personal sponsorship to Winter. He fucked it up, and lost that sponsorship. The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance?
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On March 22 2015 04:11 dsousa wrote:
At times Starcraft isn't even in the top 20 games on twitch since Winter went on hiatus.
He has over 600 subscribers and at least 1000 real viewers all the time.
He's put more work into his stream than any other SC2 player.
He has real passion, maybe for SC2, maybe for personal success.
Lets crucify him. Suck him back in then pull the rug out again? He is the enemy!
Its SC2, we kill our young!
lmao....get real, young padawan aka foreigner. XD
i'd love to see a realityshow with winter living the life of a Bplayer.^^
On March 22 2015 06:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance?
I hope they will because viewbot is a flaw coming from twitch not winter.
it's real sc2 drama but episode 2 will be aired in 6 months maybe sooner, winter just need to clear this with twitch and reapply, 1 clear conti awesome review and i see no reason why he should not be featured again.
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On March 22 2015 07:15 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 06:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The question remains, will Nvidia give another SC2 streamer a chance? I hope they will because viewbot is a flaw coming from twitch not winter. it's real sc2 drama but episode 2 will be aired in 6 months maybe sooner, winter just need to clear this with twitch and reapply, 1 clear conti awesome review and i see no reason why he should not be featured again.
It is Twitch's flaw, but it was something Winter abused. Nvidia's trust was betrayed, and I expect them to be hesitant to trust another streamer now that the flaw was exposed.
We will see what Winter will try to do. His reputation is now tarnished, and he will have to work 5 times as hard to earn back the trust of the audience. If he does try, lets hope he learned from his mistakes.
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On March 22 2015 04:14 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 15:58 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:45 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:31 ozyy wrote:On March 21 2015 04:24 KeksX wrote:On March 21 2015 04:23 ozyy wrote:
Damn, I remember when best sc2 streamers had like 11k viewers, now there is not even close to 2k, hell if some caster got 1k, it is something amazing. even turnamets like zotac had more than 1k easly. this game went so deep down it is sad.
even if somebody dosn't like it, it's still truth. numbers are not lying. What stream that wasn't some kind of novelty stream ever had 11k for SC2? idra, koreans players, tl players, believe there were such streamers who were 11k or close to that number. well known players had easly 2k like tlo, liquid hero and now? check right table and answer yourself. I'm pretty sure IdrA never had 11k often, he and Stephano always peaked at like 8k after a drama. Korean streamers sometimes hit 10k+ and averaged on 5k like JaeDong but it was always a novelty seeing them streaming. TLO could easily pull 2k now if he wanted to, even Moonglade pulled 1.3k today. [No offense to Moonglade he's a great streamer] I think you're just nostalgic for some reason. Use the waybackmachine and pick any day of 2012~2014, you'll see that SC2 always was inbetween 3k and 9k [if there was nothing special going on], currently we're at 6k with nothing special going on either. Idra at his best had 15k or more. [Citation needed] I really don't believe that
Just as a random poster in this thread at this point I will jump in to say that I would easily say Idra had 15k. Honestly, I always thought he peaked around 18k++ He had ~13-15k many times during the MLG days. No citation needed, just needed to be a part of the community back then @_@;; up to you if you want to 'believe' it or not though.
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In my opinion, the few times I tuned in, it was not educational, not entertaining, and down-right boring. The best part of the stream was the dog on a loop.
It's also worth noting that until this starts to impact their brand negatively, Twitch has every financial reason to turn a blind eye (or worse) to the rampant viewbotting. Twitch can't be trusted as an arbiter for this matter.
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Yeah, it surprises me how many people are still talking as though it's a foregone conclusion that Winter did indeed viewbot himself, despite no hard evidence to that effect (all circumstantial). I hope someday people summary judgement you with such short thrift, and you are given an opportunity to prove yourself innocent, despite knowing that such proof cannot exist.
Must be fun for him :/
Innocent until proven guilty. It's such a basic concept, I'm just surprised so many people can disregard it so completely, as to believe that it doesn't apply in some cases, of their choosing.
This is why we can crucify guilty people, in some cases, actually kill them. Because we understand that once proven guilty, there is no doubt. Until then, it's a lynchmob out to hunt an outsider.
Fact is, several vocal people have always disliked Winter, stemming as far as I can see from his origins. He didn't cut his teeth as a pro gamer in tournaments, so he's not allowed to join the boys club. People citing Idra as a pin up from time gone past.. Are you serious? Idra was a horrible horrible person and example of how to be an ass online. Yes, he got viewers, but then again so did a certain video featuring some girls and a cup. It's not good content, it's shocking, and pleases the angsty raging teenagers who thrive on that drama.
People say Winter didn't have a quality broadcast, and should of put time into increasing that. I can only assume you haven't watched his broadcast then. His overlay, setup, is second to none in sc2. His format is great, his viewer interaction is good, often they get to pick what he's doing. But no, he didn't get a green screen, didn't setup interactive games, didn't craft a slick looking UI with tons of helpful tips and links, and didn't reach GM, legitimately, on ladder. Oh, wait, yes he did.
Don't get me wrong, it looks like something suspicious might of happened early doors, heck, I'm a business man, shit happens in the real world. Sadly, we'll probably never know for sure what happened. And we'll probably not know what's currently happening either.
Simply put, as I've said before, in the current technical situation, viewers is a horribly corrupt metric to use to measure a channels success, as proven here. Subscribers is a harder metric to fake. Why not use that?
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EPT
