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On February 13 2015 07:31 Anvil666 wrote:
Love it! I don't care about any of the unit changes, they're going to change 100 times over anyways. What I'm REALLY excited about is that they're finally working on some of the flawed fundamentals of the game!
Oh I would love to hear what do you consider by "flawed fundamentals", don't tell me that reduced attack speed by 40% is the thing you are talking about.
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On February 13 2015 07:33 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 13 2015 07:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
Nice I like most of the changes. Lotv is looking like a great.improvement. don't see how anyone could not be excited for the improvements. Well, tell me what do you consider here improvement apart from Roach burrow movement? Strange, that would have been the very last thing I'd have considered to be an improvement here. Really unnecessary, will make P life a hell in early game -as if ravagers weren't enough. Looks like banshee speed to me. It is an improvement because rarely anyone gets that upgrade anyway. They will probably merge it with movement speed upgrade, and not make it come by default when burrow is upgraded. I also don't see that being a big of a deal right now when Protoss needs another gateway unit to be able to deal with Zerg in the early game, Ravagers already made Force Fields a lot less useful. It's supposed to be Protoss' expansion but is it me or is Protoss bad so far in LotV?
Protoss expansion for the story
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On February 13 2015 07:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:33 darkness wrote:On February 13 2015 07:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 13 2015 07:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
Nice I like most of the changes. Lotv is looking like a great.improvement. don't see how anyone could not be excited for the improvements. Well, tell me what do you consider here improvement apart from Roach burrow movement? Strange, that would have been the very last thing I'd have considered to be an improvement here. Really unnecessary, will make P life a hell in early game -as if ravagers weren't enough. Looks like banshee speed to me. It is an improvement because rarely anyone gets that upgrade anyway. They will probably merge it with movement speed upgrade, and not make it come by default when burrow is upgraded. I also don't see that being a big of a deal right now when Protoss needs another gateway unit to be able to deal with Zerg in the early game, Ravagers already made Force Fields a lot less useful. It's supposed to be Protoss' expansion but is it me or is Protoss bad so far in LotV? Protoss expansion for the story
Doesn't mean they have to go through the end WoL (for T) and HotS (for Z) scheme again and make P suffer all LotV long ^^
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It's at least good that they try shit and aren't afraid to break the game in the process, it's pre-beta, let the crazy ideas flow and don't listen to the "b-b-but mah forcefialds!!!!" whiners.
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On February 13 2015 07:39 ZenithM wrote:
It's at least good that they try shit and aren't afraid to break the game in the process, it's pre-beta, let the crazy ideas flow and don't listen to the "b-b-but mah forcefialds!!!!" whiners.
Ok, let's reduce marine's dps. How about that? Don't listen to whiners yo.
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On February 13 2015 07:33 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On February 13 2015 07:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:On February 13 2015 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
Nice I like most of the changes. Lotv is looking like a great.improvement. don't see how anyone could not be excited for the improvements. Well, tell me what do you consider here improvement apart from Roach burrow movement? Strange, that would have been the very last thing I'd have considered to be an improvement here. Really unnecessary, will make P life a hell in early game -as if ravagers weren't enough. Looks like banshee speed to me. It is an improvement because rarely anyone gets that upgrade anyway. They will probably merge it with movement speed upgrade, and not make it come by default when burrow is upgraded. I also don't see that being a big of a deal right now when Protoss needs another gateway unit to be able to deal with Zerg in the early game, Ravagers already made Force Fields a lot less useful. It's supposed to be Protoss' expansion but is it me or is Protoss bad so far in LotV?
No, it isn't supposed to be Protoss' expansion because single player campaign and multiplayer don't have anything to do with each other. Protoss will probably be overpowered as fuck in camping just like how Zerg was in theirs, lol.
Arguments about being "race's expansion" are really tiring, they don't make any sense especially because Blizzard leans toward balanced game and balance changes multiple times during one expansion because of patches and maps.
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On February 13 2015 07:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:25 Lexender wrote:
Why do everything needs to have a stupid gimmick to it?
You want a new gateway unit?
Keep whatever unit you have, take away the stupid ability, give it more life/attack, make it so it can only be created from gateways and not from warpgates.
Boom, strong core gateway unit that doesn't depends on robo units and at the same time it doesn't make gateway rushes super strong.
AKA the starbow dragoon
It's mesmerizing how simple and good it sounds, and yet they seem too proud to do it and prefer to come up with really gimmicky wannabe innovative things. But I shouldn't worry, they are "very happy with how it is currently playing out" and they know their stuff, right ?
Now that I think about it that may even make tanks useful again, TANKS, WITH YOUR BIO, IN TVP!!. Crazy stuff.
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Why don't they just remove Tempests? It's a unit that overlaps with the carrier and voidray, it is basically a pointless unit that only existed so terrans can't make battlecruisers and zergs can't make broodlords...yawn.
Also lol at reducing attack speed and increasing attack damage to compensate, with the effect that hadly any difference in the pace was seen. No shit!
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And the HERC goes the way of the Warhound.
Alas, we hardly knew ye. But we knew you were entirely too obnoxious.
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On February 13 2015 07:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Why don't they just remove Tempests? It's a unit that overlaps with the carrier and voidray, it is basically a pointless unit that only existed so terrans can't make battlecruisers and zergs can't make broodlords...yawn.
It's the only reasonable thing to do, but they still need some time to accept the fact that an unit can actually be removed when it fulfills no role, limits the other races and can't be reworked because stargate tech tree is already fully fledged without it.
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"For example, we’re seeing that slower engagements seem to reduce the skill component in combat."
Final proof once and for all blizzard either;
1) have no idea what they are doing, or
2) trolling
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On February 13 2015 07:45 Kaos_StarCraft wrote:
"For example, we’re seeing that slower engagements seem to reduce the skill component in combat."
Final proof once and for all blizzard either;
1) have no idea what they are doing, or
2) trolling
splitting, for example, would be easier with slower battles. makes sense
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I really don't like the direction the Protoss design is heading. To me it feels like they are repeating the exact same mistake they did with HotS. The idea behind the new units seems to be:
"We want Protoss to not aim for a deathball in every game but instead focus more on other stuff. Players demand another gateway unit. As a result we will provide a new gateway unit that works well in everything BUT a deathball."
The problem here is that this was the intention behind the oracle aswell. A unit that works well in most stages of the game but cannot be massed or put into a 1-hotkey-deathball. And yet every protoss still aims to get to a solid deathball for the later stages of the game. The oracle, and most likely the new unit aswell, is only the means by which players achieve that goal. While it was kinda OK-ish for HotS since Protoss did not have that many different harass based openings during WoL, it's really not needed in LotV. We already have the Blinkstalkers, DTs, Warpprism, Phoenix and Oracle for exactly that task.
What's needed most, in my opinion at least, is another solid core army unit that trades well even on its own - unlike almost all other Protoss units. A Protoss army usually consists of many different units for a reason; each one of those units almost never trades well with the core army units of the other races. Unless in a chokepoint a Zealot will always lose to 4 Zerglings. A Stalker will lose to a Marauder. On top of the worse direct combat performance per ressource spend they also have the worst mobility compared to all other core units.
Protoss units combat that deficit by having great synergy with each other and working very well in a maxed out army due to each unit having a dedicated roll in such an army.
What that causes, however, is that the Protoss player usually keeps his army together since the parts of the army will perform fairly horribly when not supported by the other units. 2 Colossus left on their own against a small group of Marine/Marauder will usually just roll over and die without causing any damage - as we have recently seen in the herO vs. Maru game in the Proleague Playoffs. Same goes for a bunch of Stalker left alone.
Unless the new unit will be able to reliably end the game on it's own the Protoss will need to build up an army that is able to both beat the enemy army and end the game. And we're basically back to the WoL beta. There is a reason why the army that Stats used to win his NSSL r8 match against Rogue looks so similar to the army that MC used during the later stages of WoL... which in turn looked similar to an army that White-Ra used during the WoL beta. It's all that Protoss has been doing for the last 4 years and I'd be sad if nothing changes with LotV.
This general problem can be further examined by comparing the TvZ to any PvX matchup. The reason why I personally enjoy TvZ more than most other matchups is the fact that there are many small battles that start in the early game and continue well into the late lategame. It's rare that a single one of those battles decides the game but rather who came out ahead over the course of a dozen small skirmishes. It makes it both more action packed and easier to stage a spectacular comeback. Those games are usually percieved as back-and-forth with both commentators and spectators at times not being sure which players is actually ahead in the game.
Protoss matchups are usually decided by a single engagement that neither player can effectively disengage from. The matches are dominated by a slow build-up of power from the Protoss with the Zerg/Terran trying to slow him down to get ahead in the eco game. It's rarely back-and-forth and comebacks are unlikely after a lost army engagement. If the protoss wins with his army still intact he usually won't be stopped in time. If the Protoss loses his army he won't be able to rebuild it in time to deflect the counterattack due to the core army units being very inefficient on their own against whatever the opponent brings to bear.
The poor performance of the gateway units becomes apparent when the Terran drops into the main (or any other expansion) of the Protoss while he is moving his army across the map or defending a different location. The main army will be too slow to defend against the drop and quick warp-ins will not be enough to defeat 1-2 medivacs of bio. As a result the Protoss player usually stays in his base and defends until he thinks that his army is strong enough to both kill the enemy and win a baserace.
The only way to change the stale and passive gameplay is to make another unit composition viable in the lategame aswell as provide the Protoss with a core unit that is strong enough to trade well against Marine/Marauder and basic Zerg units such as the Zergling or Roach.
A good example of such a unit is the Widowmine. Despite some of its flaws it achieves that role very well. It's both viable as an early game and lategame unit. It trades well on it's own and as a part of a large army. It can be produced quick and in large quantities. It controls space and can be used as a strong harass tool in combination with Medivacs.
If the Terran sends out some Widowmines in combination with Marines and Medivacs it is a very mobile squad that will trade well and not cause the Terran player to instantly lose the game if those units get annihilated.
The same is true with Ling/Blind and Roaches. But when was the last time you saw a Protoss move a bunch of Zealot/Stalker groups across the map against a Terran?
The more I think about it the more it seems that the Protoss really needs a Dragoon-type unit.
TL;DR:
The new Protoss unit sounds too similar to the Stalker and seems to follow the same design idea as the oracle. It won't change the fact that Protoss will still move in a deathball across the map and it won't change the fact that Protoss has to remain passive the majority of the game(s).
Can we please get a Gateway unit that still holds a candle against stimmed Bio or Roach/Hydra without relying on T3 splash tech?
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Everything sounds pretty good, except for the combat speed change.. I am not sure how I feel about that. The slower combat works great in BW because that game has harder mechanics in general. I cant fucking imagine how low the skill ceiling will drop after a 40 percent change. Again, this is of course without witnessing it myself, so it is just speculation, don't hate.
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These changes are so great. I love the mineral and attack speed changes.
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On February 13 2015 07:46 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:45 Kaos_StarCraft wrote:
"For example, we’re seeing that slower engagements seem to reduce the skill component in combat."
Final proof once and for all blizzard either;
1) have no idea what they are doing, or
2) trolling splitting, for example, would be easier with slower battles. makes sense
On the other hand, you would have more time to split better the "secondary" groups of units, so it could actually lead to an increase in the amount of micro actions
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The problem is not the attack speed. The problem is the much lowered collision size of ranged units, allowing players to pack an incredible amount of ranged units in a small space. Anything that gets in range gets vaporized instantly. That's why they had to add abilities like charge to zealots and speed boost to medivacs just to keep them in line with their BW counterparts. Just increase collision size a bit so that marines aren't shooting in phalanx formation.
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On February 13 2015 07:39 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:39 ZenithM wrote:
It's at least good that they try shit and aren't afraid to break the game in the process, it's pre-beta, let the crazy ideas flow and don't listen to the "b-b-but mah forcefialds!!!!" whiners. Ok, let's reduce marine's dps. How about that? Don't listen to whiners yo.
I'd be fine with it, if it gave way for some other crazy change of course. Nerfs just for the sake of nerfing isn't all that fun. What is happening here is a new unit with new spells being introduced that allegedly render one of the most controversial abilities in Starcraft 2 less powerful. Call me crazy but I don't think it's that bad, really.
I'd be fine if Marines took a more secondary role in favor of something else. For example, I'd trade some of my marines' power for Protoss being a more interesting race, that's how much I like the game. Manly Terrans are like that, we will take nerfs if it makes the game more interesting. Quite unlike Protoss wusses who just like ever faster oracles and tempests shooting colossus beams, and Zerg sissies who would love nothing more than cliff-hopping banelings and mutalisks spawning by pairs.
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Congrats Jakatak on solehandedly fixing the scan range
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How bad zerg was in HOTS if you need to baff it so badly?
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EPT
