Hello everyone! Have you ever heard about Magnus Carlsen? Just giving you a brief explanation about him..he is the biggest master in chess. Currently the number one in the world and he is just 24 years old. Once I read that he has something like 500 thousand moves in his head of chess. I was thinking whether this guy played Starcraft once... how would be the results? Because in a short interview he said he likes poker and eventually plays it online:
"SPIEGEL: Do you win? Carlsen: If I take a game seriously, I do. If not, I sometimes lose. But that doesn’t matter. What is important is that I have a life beyond chess.”
Conclusion: He is a monster!
Of course I know that Starcraft involves manual control and other things, but this scenario would be interesting to wonder at what it would result. What do you think?
we can always wonder if players like ronaldo (who is known for his speed) does in a 100 meter dash. I don't think we should automatically assume that he'll do incredibly well in that regard. In addition, chess often has little time pressure, whereas starcraft requires thinking on the go.
On January 09 2015 11:38 iMrising wrote: we can always wonder if players like ronaldo (who is known for his speed) does in a 100 meter dash. I don't think we should automatically assume that he'll do incredibly well in that regard. In addition, chess often has little time pressure, whereas starcraft requires thinking on the go.
I wouldn't call it little time pressure, there is definitely some. But also he is one of the best blitz players in the world too - 5 minutes to complete a game of chess isn't much.
On January 09 2015 11:38 iMrising wrote: we can always wonder if players like ronaldo (who is known for his speed) does in a 100 meter dash. I don't think we should automatically assume that he'll do incredibly well in that regard. In addition, chess often has little time pressure, whereas starcraft requires thinking on the go.
never heard of blitz? it's fast chess that Magnus is also brilliant at
I think he might be able to come up, with amazing strategies quicker than other people however the question is whether he would be fast enough to execute them properly. We see this with Catz and soO. soO usually says that Catz has advised him of his strategies however Catz sometimes is not mechanical enough to execute them to their full extend.
Honestly, I think he'd be rather bad at it. I doubt he's spent much of his life with mouse + keyboard and he also has no knowledge (or so we think...) of Starcraft or RTS-genre. It'd take him at least 6 months to even get to master league (imo), and probably 1 year before he would even get close to "competitive". Maybe about 1.5+ years, he could beat some better NA players.
The guy is smart, but game sense and mechanics are such a huge part of Starcraft that his IQ alone wouldn't be able to carry him to victory.
too many variables to determine if he would actually be a world class sc player but my short answer is yes, he would be good, like good enough to beat top tier foreigners BUT only if he had a passion for learning the game and if he had good hand eye coordination and mechanics, which i think he would have considering hes still pretty young
To me starcraft decision making looks like a binary tree that you have to construct yoursefl playing games. A build, a game plan, a tree. More plans, more trees. Most decisions to take are quite straightforward IMO and don't require advanced thinking/ extreme preparation.
I'm no chess player though, but i highly doubt there is "standard" chess games that all look the same like SC "macro games" where, once again, the decision making processus is rather similar from one game to another.
TLDR starcraft is about memory and execution rather than stellar thinking/decision making
Starcraft 2 is about more than strategy and planning. I would even argue that it's less about strategy than many other things. I don't think you can just say that chess skill obviously must translate well to SC2 skill. It's not even obvious that BW skill translates to SC2 skill so...
He's a great strategist, but chess isn't an RTS. If he was also a concert pianist, with amazing dexterity, then sure his mind + the ability to be mechanically solid would be great. Otherwise he'd just be a wonderful analyst or theorycrafter.
Well, mechanics can be learned, in due time he would become a top contender if he put an effort into it. What Magnus got going for himself is his insane memory. After a (very short) while he would be able to identify a build, and react to it almost perfectly. The BW player Fisheye had very low apm (120 or less?) But his memory was superb, so he could identify the builds, and react properly. He rarely lost to a weird build twice. I think Magnus would be like that, but only godlike!
In due time he would be a top contender, the problem is how much time he would play to get his mechanics up there.
On January 09 2015 13:17 Korean-MILF wrote: Well, mechanics can be learned, in due time he would become a top contender if he put an effort into it. What Magnus got going for himself is his insane memory. After a (very short) while he would be able to identify a build, and react to it almost perfectly. The BW player Fisheye had very low apm (120 or less?) But his memory was superb, so he could identify the builds, and react properly. He rarely lost to a weird build twice. I think Magnus would be like that, but only godlike!
In due time he would be a top contender, the problem is how much time he would play to get his mechanics up there.
I feel like you're assuming anyone can hit 200+ APM if they just practice.
Tons of tryhard gamers stuck in bronze, silver, and gold vehemently disagree. Plenty of people know what they'd like to do in theory, but their fingers fail them because they just aren't physically fast enough. I don't know if Magnus has expertise in fields requiring finger dexterity and hand-eye coordination, but based on his amazing chess skills alone, that's not good enough to actually carry out the keyboard and mouse requirements. You have to be both mentally and physically capable.
If you say that if he just picked up SC2 TODAY and started playing... it would be a year or more before he made any dent. Yes he is very smart with his analytical brain, but it takes at least a year of practice to build up the speed, dexterity and muscle memory for macro and micro of SC2.
However, if he had started playing say 4 years ago when the game was released, and was not into chess but into SC2.... then very much I think he could be a top player. He has that mind and killer instinct.... he is a true chess prodigy.
"What if" questions are really tricky stuff...it's easy enough to say "oh, with that great mind of his, if he played Starcraft instead of chess he'd be great!"...but with that great mind of his, he didn't choose to play Starcraft, he chose chess.
If you introduced the game to him, I'm sure he'd pick up on strategy and tactics pretty well, but that doesn't guarantee you'll be a pro, it's pretty mechanical as well.
He would probably be platinum or something. Why would you think that he is any good? The most important part of SC2 is the mechanics BY FAR. I don't care if you have a better strategy than me, if I have significantly more units and better control I just win.
I think he would be GM within 1 hour of beginning to play. Within 3 hours he would be KT's ace. By the end of the day he would have transcended his physical form, reincarnating as pure energy and fusing with the spirit of tassadar.
Without the mechanics practice why would you think he would be any good?
It may be different if you asked "if he spent all his energy on SC2 rather than chess what would have happened?" but then you could pose that question about the elite in a variety of sporting fields as they are all incredibly dedicated and intelligent individuals.
On January 09 2015 15:26 knOxStarcraft wrote: The variety of BM retards in GM should make it clear that intelligence is very weakly correlated to starcraft ability.
True, and the fact that there is so many maphackers and ladder is messed up atm. :-P
Puppey mentioned in an AMA that Magnus is semi-familiar with Dota. Apparently a few Russian players are fans and he picked some up from them. Magnus playing Magnus, pls.
On January 09 2015 15:26 knOxStarcraft wrote: The variety of BM retards in GM should make it clear that intelligence is very weakly correlated to starcraft ability.
On January 09 2015 14:24 Dracover wrote: Without the mechanics practice why would you think he would be any good?
It may be different if you asked "if he spent all his energy on SC2 rather than chess what would have happened?" but then you could pose that question about the elite in a variety of sporting fields as they are all incredibly dedicated and intelligent individuals.
Is there any evidence that the elite in sporting fields are more intelligent that the average individual much less incredibly intelligent?
Hm, interesting question.. I think that all he needs to work on is some mechanics, because obviously he is a mastermind. The number of chess players on earth is much larger than the number of SC2 players, and Marcus is really dominant in chess, while there is no particular player that is on top of the earth right now in SC2.
If he had proper mechanics, I easily believe he might become the best player on earth.
Also, this reminded me of a world top 100m sprinter who joined a rugby/american football team. That was hilarious to watch, once the guy got the ball, he ran. And my god, he ran SO incredibly fast compared to the other players, not even close. It felt like they had hacked the game!
I am a firm believer that if a person can excel in one thing, he/she can excel in other things as well. It's not things like planning 500,000 chess moves in his head that make him good, it's his intelligence and the discipline to put in time and effort. Unless he's like bound by some limitation (physical) or obligation, he would do well if he put in the same amount of effort.
I think it would be much more likely that someone with incredibly fast hands, idk a champion ping pong player or something would be better than an elite chess player. Sc2 is more about mechanics than intelligence. Things like marine splitting don't require you to be super intelligent. Sc2 is more akin to a sport then to an intellectual puzzle like chess.
On January 09 2015 17:46 Anacreor wrote: Hm, interesting question.. I think that all he needs to work on is some mechanics, because obviously he is a mastermind. The number of chess players on earth is much larger than the number of SC2 players, and Marcus is really dominant in chess, while there is no particular player that is on top of the earth right now in SC2.
If he had proper mechanics, I easily believe he might become the best player on earth.
Also, this reminded me of a world top 100m sprinter who joined a rugby/american football team. That was hilarious to watch, once the guy got the ball, he ran. And my god, he ran SO incredibly fast compared to the other players, not even close. It felt like they had hacked the game!
Yes, man..indeed I agree with you. Interesting about that "runner"..I think it was a good comparation. In one hand the mechanic was a hard detail to fight against..but on the other hand, Magnus being a mastermind, it would be a challenge to him
Magnus Carlsen can never be as good at starcraft as he is at chess because he didn't start playing starcraft obsessively at the age of 8 like he did with chess.
On January 09 2015 14:21 travis wrote: I think he would be GM within 1 hour of beginning to play. Within 3 hours he would be KT's ace. By the end of the day he would have transcended his physical form, reincarnating as pure energy and fusing with the spirit of tassadar.
Could he stop Amon though?
And I thought this thread was about a World's Strongest Man competitor, and I immediately thought that Incontrol would instantly become the second strongest man in E-Sports.
On January 11 2015 01:44 mau5mat wrote: Don't think he would do very well at first, due to the physical demands from sc2 compared to chess
He is in better physical condition than almost every SC2-player out there ^^
On January 11 2015 01:11 Grumbels wrote: Magnus Carlsen can never be as good at starcraft as he is at chess because he didn't start playing starcraft obsessively at the age of 8 like he did with chess.
Most players that are good in SC2 now have been playing video games for a long time. Computer experience and video game experience is a massive factor before you start SC2.
Carlsen likes to relax with video games when he's playing tourneys, not sure about how much he's played throughout his life though. But ... combined with all his other skill sets, I would not be surprised to see him have a very strong base for competitive video gaming.
As interesting as OP's question is, we all know there's not going to be an answer to it. What a tease
On January 11 2015 01:11 Grumbels wrote: Magnus Carlsen can never be as good at starcraft as he is at chess because he didn't start playing starcraft obsessively at the age of 8 like he did with chess.
Most players that are good in SC2 now have been playing video games for a long time. Computer experience and video game experience is a massive factor before you start SC2.
Carlsen likes to relax with video games when he's playing tourneys, not sure about how much he's played throughout his life though. But ... combined with all his other skill sets, I would not be surprised to see him have a very strong base for competitive video gaming.
As interesting as OP's question is, we all know there's not going to be an answer to it. What a tease
I mean in a mechanical sense, chess isn't very APM/EPM demanding, and is far more cognitive. I think that would be a barrier to his improvement at first.
Magnus Carlsen as a Terran mech player would be fucking terrifying. The way he just grinds out the endgame with complete technical precision is amazing to behold. It would be like if Flash BW mech made a comeback.
what is this thread... there is a lot more to starcraft than being smart. also the meta is pretty figured out so its more about execution and dexterity than anything. Look at clem. you can copy his build but u still can't execute like clem.
On February 17 2025 09:16 7mk wrote: Who would have thought that Magnus Carlsen would one day be signed by Team Liquid (for chess, not for starcraft) :D
Im a little surprised that I did not see a single thread about it on here though.
Whoa. This is true. And Caruana has previously been signed, too. This is actually huge news.
And I also see TL called Carlsen the GoaT in their welcome message. So we can have another GoaT debate here.
On February 17 2025 09:16 7mk wrote: Who would have thought that Magnus Carlsen would one day be signed by Team Liquid (for chess, not for starcraft) :D
Im a little surprised that I did not see a single thread about it on here though.
Whoa. This is true. And Caruana has previously been signed, too. This is actually huge news.
And I also see TL called Carlsen the GoaT in their welcome message. So we can have another GoaT debate here.
Fuck yeah! And centuries worth of competitors to pick from as well. I'm casting my lot with Giovanni Leonardo di Bona da Cutri (1542-1587)
On a side note, they better not have Magnus wear the normal TL jersey and have a blazer on top of that. Make him a custom jacket goddammit.
On February 17 2025 11:40 CicadaSC wrote: what is this thread... there is a lot more to starcraft than being smart. also the meta is pretty figured out so its more about execution and dexterity than anything. Look at clem. you can copy his build but u still can't execute like clem.
Clem was not even born when this thread was created
If you watch Magnus Carlsen play internet chess, you'll see that he has incredible mouse skills as well. In fact, one of the memorable videos is his friendly match against Alexandra Botez in blitz where he gives himself only 30 sec vs her 5 mins:
Don't think Carlsen will necessarily be a top top player, but he'll definitely be very good - I think he could potentially be a GM-level player.
Chess i a slow game, even the speed chess. I mean, he is a chess wizard, thats for sure. But looking at a chess board which he has done for all his life, and is always in complete map control, is very different from sc2. My answer is, i dont know, he could suck, he could be amazing. Its impossible to tell. But you question was if he played sc2 "ONCE", then he would probably get destroyed. But if he had a month to practice mechanics and study the units and their strength etc. then it would be another question.
I think he'd be very, very strong. Maybe not immediately, but in a very short timeframe.
I disagree that the skills aren't transferable, I think the majority are transferable. Plus combine that with insane work ethic, the process of game review and analysis, and the winner's drive.
On February 19 2025 00:47 Chill wrote: I think he'd be very, very strong. Maybe not immediately, but in a very short timeframe.
I disagree that the skills aren't transferable, I think the majority are transferable. Plus combine that with insane work ethic, the process of game review and analysis, and the winner's drive.
Completely agree. His basic mouse skills are of course transferable, but also the competitiveness, calm under pressure, ability and willingness to dive into prep (chess openings are so much better studied than starcraft ones), analytical mind. There's no question somebody like him would be at least an A-rank pro. Whether he can be a Clem/Serral/Maru/Reynor/Maxpax? Harder to say, since those kids can win games on mechanics alone. But for him to end up at the same level as a Heromarine, showtime, cure, stats, I think that would be pretty believable if he were to be fully dedicated to the game (lot of muscle memory for a game like SC).
All the top players at the moment are players who picked up SC2 when they were like young teenagers. Even if Magnus picked up SC2 when he was 24 when this thread was opened it would already be quite hard for him to catch up.
In the hypothetical universe where Magnus got passionate about Starcaft instead of Chess then yes, he could be one of the best.
On topic I think he would be very good. There would be a learning curve of course but it wouldn't look like yours or mine. Each loss would have alot more learnt from it and I don't doubt he could get GM in under a year if he started now.
Some people are naturally good at these games. Having been around and watched respected players come from other games or come back from huge breaks has taught me that. I've seen players come to this game with near zero experience quickly get to a higher level than myself whos played for twenty years. God that feels weird to type.
There's enough overlap in mental skills/talent required in various 'games' (video games, chess, poker, etc) so that lots of people in the top 1% of a certain game can become top 1% in another. The real differentiation is in who can become a top 0.01%/pro level player.
I'd say getting GM in current SC2 would be pretty trivial for someone like Magnus if he actually put in time/effort—getting to "pro" level (whatever that means right now) is another story.
He would suck. Come on guys, he plays chess, is a genius at that, I follow the scene for quite a while now, I don't get why you think he would be gm in a year for sure? The overlapping skillset is not that big, especially in sc2 (compared to bw), mechanics are everything. Yes, he can move chess figures quickly, that's drag and drop from one position to another!! There's no grouping, building selection, splitting, micro management, a-moving, spellcasting.... The list goes on. It is very simple to play chess, micro-wise, even on short time formats. There are even a lot of people that are faster than Magnus (Hikaru, Alireza, Abdusattorov, Lazavic...), but surely all of them would be gm in no time, too. And Clem and Serral would of course rock the chess world, because they are good at sc2... Sorry, but it takes more than being good at something remotely similar.
On February 20 2025 00:55 Rob-Zero wrote: The overlapping skillset is not that big, especially in sc2 (compared to bw), mechanics are everything.
I agree. I think many are overestimating the similarities between chess and SC.
The single most important skill in chess is pure and raw calculation. Of course, there are many other factors – preparation, strategy, and intuition. But none of them matters if you are not able to calculate tactics properly, which at Super GM level means calculating variations at an incredible depth with insane accuracy. Which in turn means taking deep and long thinks at a time, a skill practically irrelevant in SC because, well, it is a real-time strategy game.
In contrast, SC success is mostly dependent on running mechanics and multitasking at a high velocity in real-time. Of course, there are other factors, too – build order choice, preparation, and so on, but mechanics at both the micro and macro level and multitasking are the necessary foundation. In a recent video Lambo mentioned that even if he achieves a practical build order win against Clem he will still probably lose because of Clem's absurd speed and mechanics. Which, in turn, are largely irrelevant in chess, because even if you have to blitz out some moves under time pressure, you're neither multitasking nor doing recurring micro/macro patterns in real time.
Carlsen would presumably still do reasonably well at SC because he is incredibly competitive and bright, but I do not think the analogies between chess and SC will carry him far.
On February 20 2025 00:55 Rob-Zero wrote: The overlapping skillset is not that big, especially in sc2 (compared to bw), mechanics are everything.
I agree. I think many are overestimating the similarities between chess and SC.
The single most important skill in chess is pure and raw calculation. Of course, there are many other factors – preparation, strategy, and intuition. But none of them matters if you are not able to calculate tactics properly, which at Super GM level means calculating variations at an incredible depth with insane accuracy. Which in turn means taking deep and long thinks at a time, a skill practically irrelevant in SC because, well, it is a real-time strategy game.
In contrast, SC success is mostly dependent on running mechanics and multitasking at a high velocity in real-time. Of course, there are other factors, too – build order choice, preparation, and so on, but mechanics at both the micro and macro level and multitasking are the necessary foundation. In a recent video Lambo mentioned that even if he achieves a practical build order win against Clem he will still probably lose because of Clem's absurd speed and mechanics. Which, in turn, are largely irrelevant in chess, because even if you have to blitz out some moves under time pressure, you're neither multitasking nor doing recurring micro/macro patterns in real time.
Carlsen would presumably still do reasonably well at SC because he is incredibly competitive and bright, but I do not think the analogies between chess and SC will carry him far.
Well, probably won't square this difference through chatter in an online forum, but I think it's a pretty common anecdotal experience to notice people who are very good at one game tend to be very good at others. For TL.net forum-goers, the BW-Poker pipeline should come readily to mind. The outcomes ranged from 'solid grinder' to 'multi-millionaire,' but those are all very good compared to the entirety of the poker-playing population.
Also, people tend to erroneously expand the physical requirements of BW/SC2 at the championship level down to the high-amateur level as well. There were PLENTY of very good Protoss players who got by on 150 APM and brains.
On February 20 2025 00:55 Rob-Zero wrote: The overlapping skillset is not that big, especially in sc2 (compared to bw), mechanics are everything.
I agree. I think many are overestimating the similarities between chess and SC.
The single most important skill in chess is pure and raw calculation. Of course, there are many other factors – preparation, strategy, and intuition. But none of them matters if you are not able to calculate tactics properly, which at Super GM level means calculating variations at an incredible depth with insane accuracy. Which in turn means taking deep and long thinks at a time, a skill practically irrelevant in SC because, well, it is a real-time strategy game.
In contrast, SC success is mostly dependent on running mechanics and multitasking at a high velocity in real-time. Of course, there are other factors, too – build order choice, preparation, and so on, but mechanics at both the micro and macro level and multitasking are the necessary foundation. In a recent video Lambo mentioned that even if he achieves a practical build order win against Clem he will still probably lose because of Clem's absurd speed and mechanics. Which, in turn, are largely irrelevant in chess, because even if you have to blitz out some moves under time pressure, you're neither multitasking nor doing recurring micro/macro patterns in real time.
Carlsen would presumably still do reasonably well at SC because he is incredibly competitive and bright, but I do not think the analogies between chess and SC will carry him far.
Well, probably won't square this difference through chatter in an online forum, but I think it's a pretty common anecdotal experience to notice people who are very good at one game tend to be very good at others. For TL.net forum-goers, the BW-Poker pipeline should come readily to mind. The outcomes ranged from 'solid grinder' to 'multi-millionaire,' but those are all very good compared to the entirety of the poker-playing population.
True, but I think this is less because of similarities between those games and more because of similarities between those people. People who get good at SC tend to be competitive, consistent in training, open to critical feedback, willing to improve, analytical in their treatment of the theory of the game, and so on.
In short, what people who are good at SC transfer to other games is, in my view, mostly the ability to get good at games. This is not to deny that there are substantial overlaps too (one of the reasons why I originally got into SC was actually the similarity between build orders and chess openings), but I do not think these can account for much of the co-success in separate games.
I mostly agree that at this point, it would be difficult for Magnus to achieve pro-level play in SC2, even if he went full-time. I do not doubt that he could hit GM if he went full-time. As a hobby? Probably low/mid-masters. Would love to be proved wrong.
However, I do think that there might be a reasonable amount of transferability between unit micromanagement and speed chess. In both settings, you have to rapidly adjust to what your opponent has just done, and continue to try to shape the contours of the board/map. It would be a lateral move, mentally speaking, but not a very large one.
Playing multiple chess games at once is also a little bit like the micro/macro task-splitting that we do in SC2.
On February 22 2025 02:03 Charoisaur wrote: What if Serral played chess, could he be the Goat?
Question is: If Serral beats Magnus in SC2 and Magnus beats him in Chess, what would be the decider game? Basketball?
On a different note: While it has basically zero remifications in the greater schemes of things, there is an RTS player who won "something" in chess. TheViper (AoE 2 GOAT) played in a german amateur tournament with a bunch of influencers etc. and won it, even though he didn't play much chess before. And some of them even got coaching before the tournament. As I said, not saying much. But there definetly is some sort of transferable skill from RTS to Chess and I would assume it works the other way around aswell. Though I guess that wouldn't work for all types of players. Especially the Terrans, who really more on beating their opponents into submission with raw APM and Micro would have a hard time in Chess I assume
Pattern recognition is a big skill in chess and I think it's underappreciated in SC2 as well. Knowing what fights are winnable isn't exactly strategy, but it's not pure mechanics either. Part of getting good at picking fights comes with playing thousands of games, but some players are just better at judging engagements (Serral and Maru are very good at it, herO is bizzarely bad at it for his caliber of overall play.) Similarly, much of the pattern recognition in chess comes from practice, but the best players (especially Magnus) have a preternatural ability to see deep ideas in positions that aren't exactly calcuable.
Would that translate 1:1 to knowing how many banelings is enough to dive on a marine ball with enough practice? No, but I think it's an area of some overlap.
EPT
