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Saw this on hltv, wondered why noone here picked up the news. Wonder what this means for sc2?
http://www.hltv.org/news/13830-csgo-to-become-dhs-main-game
All DreamHack events in 2015 will feature CS:GO as a main game, HLTV.org has learned.
So far, CS:GO has had limited exposure in DreamHack's world circuit, with the game having been left of out of a number of events that take place in several countries throughout the year.
However, a source inside DreamHack has told HLTV.org that CS:GO will replace Starcraft 2 as the main game of the 2015 event circuit, which means full production and main stage privileges in all tournaments.
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Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
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As long as SC2 still has a small stage, I'm fine with that.
It's perfectly normal that CS, with it's viewers numbers, take a bigger role within DreamHack's circuit
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i assume sc2 will still be in dh, cant see any good reason to drop it so just going to have less effort put on the production i guess.
absolutely right decision for dh to do this since cs is in a serious upswing and dh main events being in sweden and cs in there is HUGE
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I didn't even know that Sc2 was the main game, owell, no harm done I suppose.
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Wonder if the prize pools will suffer or if there will even be sc2 at every event.
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On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
I'm not really sure how you can say this, CSGO events this year have been really really good. More power to them.
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All the koreans going back to Korea are now a bit happier about their situation.
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On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
Replace SC2 with BW and i'd agree with you.
Makes total sense when CS absolutely dominates all other numbers at dreamhack.
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Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again....
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On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here.
I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely.
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This is sad news.
Well, when LotV brings SC2 back to new heights, the audience should remember that Dreamhack is another LAN with no real Starcraft authority.
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On December 15 2014 22:56 Headnoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! Replace SC2 with BW and i'd agree with you. Makes total sense when CS absolutely dominates all other numbers at dreamhack.
Good thing he doesn't mention SC2 in his post then.
On topic I'm sure if that's really a terrible news. It's logical considered the viewer numbers, and the future of SC2 seems much more centenred around the Korean scene for 2015
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It's a numbers game. When StarCraft II came out and became the largest game (numbers wise) DH picked it up as their main game. Now CS is doing the same thing.
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On December 15 2014 22:53 johnbongham wrote:
Wonder if the prize pools will suffer or if there will even be sc2 at every event.
I'm gonna say yes and it's hard to tell. If you aren't a main stage game you don't get main stage money.
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On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again....
As much as I would like to believe otherwise, this certainly seems to be the case.
On December 15 2014 22:51 Pino wrote:
As long as SC2 still has a small stage, I'm fine with that.
It's perfectly normal that CS, with it's viewers numbers, take a bigger role within DreamHack's circuit
The article doesn't say that sc2 won't also be held on the main stage.... it will probably have its own side stage just like before and then the final four will be on the mainstage alongside CS:GO and Hearthstone. Starcraft 2 won't be their top headliner but it will still be a big one for them. By the way, it already looked like they had done this at DreamHack Winter with no warning first. It was clear that Starcraft got far less resources for its DreamHack season finale than CS:GO despite being the "main game". This only them announcing what they have already done.
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On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again....
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the big disagreements between Ohlen and the other execs the roll of SC2 at DH?
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On December 15 2014 23:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again.... Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the big disagreements between Ohlen and the other execs the roll of SC2 at DH?
Sounds possible. Is Ohlen the first martyr of sc2?
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On December 15 2014 22:59 looknohands119 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again.... As much as I would like to believe otherwise, this certainly seems to be the case.
A smart business decision shouldn't have anything to do with him being there or not, the numbers are overwhelmingly with CSGO and promoting that while it's on the rise and there is far more money to be made and created is a natural choice.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again....
As far as I know Ohlén had no executive role in deciding what games go where at Dreamhacks.
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On December 15 2014 23:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
Out with Ohlen, Nothing will change.
And in the end, PR strikes again.... Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the big disagreements between Ohlen and the other execs the roll of SC2 at DH?
Ohlen was supposed to be the public face of the company. I'm not sure if a public face decides anything
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The views of CS:GO are MUCH higher then these of SC II at Dreamhack. A normal buisness decision.
As long as SC II is still played at the Hacks, I dont see so much problems with it. Dreamhack needs to make money to run.
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apart from the fact that CS:GO is growing, sweden is like the heart of CS in Europe (they have a ton of good players), so it makes sense to have it as the main game
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Not sure what this really means at Dreamhack when the CS:GO stage was already bigger than the SC2 one?
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I just dived into CS:GO myself as a viewer. My strongest impression was that there's quite the cheating issue. Some players have been VAC banned (KQLY). Lots of accusations fly through twitter (eg. fnatic). Not sure if I really like the change. But as long as I get to watch some sc2 action, I'm okay.
So far, CS:GO has had limited exposure in DreamHack's world circuit, with the game having been left of out of a number of events that take place in several countries throughout the year.
Does that mean that potentially, StarCraft II will be excluded from smaller Dreamhack tournaments?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I don't actually grasp what the difference will be here. The SC2 stage wasn't shabby, but the CS:GO stage at DH:Winter was enormous and fucking awesome. Are there any functional changes at all?
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It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 15 2014 23:16 ivancype wrote:
It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2.
Sums up my thoughts pretty well. Well be interesting to see if there's a hit to the prize pool.
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Can't blame them, the numbers for CSGO is just way too big for this to not happen.
As long as sc2 is still carried, I'm fine with this.
+ Show Spoiler +and please no ded gaem jokes
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On December 15 2014 23:14 Zealously wrote:
I don't actually grasp what the difference will be here. The SC2 stage wasn't shabby, but the CS:GO stage at DH:Winter was enormous and fucking awesome. Are there any functional changes at all?
The CSGO tournament at the last dreamhack was special in that Valve contributed heavily to the prize purse in order to make the tournament be considered a 'major'. CSGO tournaments at the other dreamhacks earlier in 2014 were pretty small and terribly produced.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 15 2014 23:24 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:14 Zealously wrote:
I don't actually grasp what the difference will be here. The SC2 stage wasn't shabby, but the CS:GO stage at DH:Winter was enormous and fucking awesome. Are there any functional changes at all? The CSGO tournament at the last dreamhack was special in that Valve contributed heavily to the prize purse in order to make the tournament be considered a 'major'. CSGO tournaments at the other dreamhacks earlier in 2014 were pretty small and terribly produced.
Cool, I had no idea.
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Sad news, especially when I see this and this
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On December 15 2014 23:25 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:24 johnbongham wrote:On December 15 2014 23:14 Zealously wrote:
I don't actually grasp what the difference will be here. The SC2 stage wasn't shabby, but the CS:GO stage at DH:Winter was enormous and fucking awesome. Are there any functional changes at all? The CSGO tournament at the last dreamhack was special in that Valve contributed heavily to the prize purse in order to make the tournament be considered a 'major'. CSGO tournaments at the other dreamhacks earlier in 2014 were pretty small and terribly produced. Cool, I had no idea.
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
And that was going to be my first event I was going to
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Lately the DH sc2 events have had a myriad of production issues and down time, imo costing the viewership dearly. Interesting that with all of the cheating rumors that cs go would be put into the spotlight and with more pressure put on the brand.
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On December 15 2014 23:16 ivancype wrote:
It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2.
The CS tournament was a major tournament. Dreamhack felt insignificant being sandwiched between Blizzcon, Homestory Cup X and IEM San Jose.
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Only sad realization is that eSports viewer numbers are completely arbitrary. Games have never been this exciting and yet viewership numbers for SC2 are dropping.
Makes me think that mainstream eSports still is, and probably will always stay, just an extended arm of marketing for popular games.
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................
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CS GO has been pulling from twice to 3 times the viewership of SC2 guys, this isn't something we should be surprised at.
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Since CSGO has so few premier events, I'm not surprised DreamHack wants to run with it
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On December 15 2014 23:13 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +So far, CS:GO has had limited exposure in DreamHack's world circuit, with the game having been left of out of a number of events that take place in several countries throughout the year. Does that mean that potentially, StarCraft II will be excluded from smaller Dreamhack tournaments?
Oh c'mon.
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France is a strong home of CS players, but the SC2 crowd here is gonna be mad at no SC2...
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Seems legit, cs viewership is huge compared to sc, and the guys got skill, please stop with this Starcraft elitarism
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United States23455 Posts
Follow up to Aeromi's first tweet guys
Still may be SC2 at DH in France
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On December 15 2014 23:41 TheSayo182 wrote:
Seems legit, cs viewership is huge compared to sc, and the guys got skill, please stop with this Starcraft elitarism
You're complaining about a SC2 forum complaining about SC2 being scratched from being the main event? Sorry, but we're not here to circlejerk about CS:GO....
I mean I get what you are trying to say but come on, cut us some slack.
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China6329 Posts
CSGO deserves that main stage treatment, but I'm not that certain about Dreamhack's future SC2 presence.
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MH. I remember at last DH:Bucharest they announced Sc2 later than the other games, I REALLY HOPE it is the same case.
(also because I'm already doing programs for it )
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I'm pretty sure DH is going to announce DH SC2, the French Facebook page kinda confirm it.
I'll post more infos about it when I'm home.
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:-/
Hopefully all the DH events will still feature SC2... Otherwise that'd be a really bad for the European scene.
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I don't mind that at all. As long as they cover SC2 well I am totally fine with that.
It's not just the viewership, you gotta think that 2 of the most "popular" teams are swedish, which makes it also a political decision. And with Thorzain/Sortof/Nani/Sase kind of gone from the main stage this makes perfect sense.
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France9034 Posts
This is truly worrying (esp. the part about not announcing SC2 yet....).
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On December 15 2014 23:51 Doublemint wrote:
I don't mind that at all. As long as they cover SC2 well I am totally fine with that.
It's not just the viewership, you gotta think that 2 of the most "popular" teams are swedish, which makes it also a political decision. And with Thorzain/Sortof/Nani/Sase kind of gone from the main stage this makes perfect sense.
Yeah CSGO in Europe is a bit like sc2 in Korea in terms of player and team skill. It isn't quite as 1 -sided as the sc2 scene though. Thing that strikes me as odd was that I recently saw Artosis casting a CS:Online tournament in the gom studios and then I saw tasteless casting some kind of weak looking CS ripoff called 'crossfire' with lilsusie or something only a couple weeks ago. Maybe valve purposely doesn't grow CSGO in asia because they dont want the Koreans to dominate  I actually think its because Asian gamers only seem to like f2p games these days.
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DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament.
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On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to asse there will be a SC2 tournament.
Exactly. Not only that but Moman will be there as a CS:GO coach AND SC2 fangirl :D
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On December 15 2014 23:12 Makro wrote:
apart from the fact that CS:GO is growing, sweden is like the heart of CS in Europe (they have a ton of good players), so it makes sense to have it as the main game
My thoughts exactly
Here's to hoping NiP wins DH Summer 2015.
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Sigh, and I was looking forward to DH France.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
This is cool, I'm not a massive fan of CS:GO compared to 1.6 but it's getting better and more interesting to watch now. It's not like something being on or off of the main stage makes any difference to anyone at all unless you're at the event since you see all the same content on a stream anyway.
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Iam happy about this. Blizzard needs to step up.
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France7248 Posts
On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament.
^ this
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On December 15 2014 23:46 Aeromi wrote:
I'm pretty sure DH is going to announce DH SC2, the French Facebook page kinda confirm it.
I'll post more infos about it when I'm home.
Nono I'd prefer to post your tweets out of context so if the information ends up being wrong it's your fault
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On December 15 2014 22:57 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here. I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely.
It would be, in the same way cycling would be, if the results weren't completely undermined by constant scandals and cheating.
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On December 15 2014 23:55 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:51 Doublemint wrote:
I don't mind that at all. As long as they cover SC2 well I am totally fine with that.
It's not just the viewership, you gotta think that 2 of the most "popular" teams are swedish, which makes it also a political decision. And with Thorzain/Sortof/Nani/Sase kind of gone from the main stage this makes perfect sense. Yeah CSGO in Europe is a bit like sc2 in Korea in terms of player and team skill. It isn't quite as 1 -sided as the sc2 scene though. Thing that strikes me as odd was that I recently saw Artosis casting a CS:Online tournament in the gom studios and then I saw tasteless casting some kind of weak looking CS ripoff called 'crossfire' with lilsusie or something only a couple weeks ago. Maybe valve purposely doesn't grow CSGO in asia because they dont want the Koreans to dominate I actually think its because Asian gamers only seem to like f2p games these days.
koreans didn't dominate 1.6 when they had the chance to tho
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On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament.
It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason.
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On December 15 2014 23:29 Lorning wrote:And that was going to be my first event I was going to
Yep, same.
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On December 16 2014 00:05 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:57 okum wrote:On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here. I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely. It would be, in the same way cycling would be, if the results weren't completely undermined by constant scandals and cheating.
Got em coach
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On December 16 2014 00:09 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:05 Crot4le wrote:On December 15 2014 22:57 okum wrote:On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here. I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely. It would be, in the same way cycling would be, if the results weren't completely undermined by constant scandals and cheating. Got em coach
Cheating, betting/scamming and really strange twitch chats 
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On December 16 2014 00:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament. It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason.
The game is really fun to play and collect the cards. It's a good example on how to make a card game.
As an eSport though it's retarded. Low skill ceiling and huge RNG makes for not very exciting storylines. Plus it's much drier than other eSports (MOBAs aside, I'd rather watch paint dry).
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Im actually OK with this, I have always been a big SC and CS supporter and these 2 games are pretty much my only goto games. I can watch both esports all day long....
also better CS then LOL
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For the ones attending the latest Dreamhack I'm sure it comes as no surprise. The interest and audience that the CS:GO tournament pulled were huge. I wonder if this completely eliminates the DH SC2 circuit, or if its still possible we will have it alongside CS:GO in 2015.
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On December 16 2014 00:11 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament. It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason. The game is really fun to play and collect the cards. It's a good example on how to make a card game. As an eSport though it's retarded. Low skill ceiling and huge RNG makes for not very exciting storylines. Plus it's much drier than other eSports (MOBAs aside, I'd rather watch paint dry).
Way easier to understand than sc2 as a viewer because it has freakin' descriptions on cards. I absolutely dislike hearthstone since it's RNG based and I suck at taking losses anyways. I'm so salty about that shitgame. I want to start a rant but I don't wanna derail here so I'll just shut up about that .. game.
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On December 16 2014 00:12 TeveT wrote:
For the ones attending the latest Dreamhack I'm sure it comes as no surprise. The interest and audience that the CS:GO tournament pulled were huge. I wonder if this completely eliminates the DH SC2 circuit, or if its still possible we will have it alongside CS:GO in 2015.
as long as Blizzard wants SC2 to be an esport, it will be there.
please people, stop the doom and gloom and get some updates on the tweets, take a deep breath, and think for a second etc...
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Of course the best games will be played.
Sc2 nowadays is only interesting if you're korean
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On December 16 2014 00:11 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament. It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason. The game is really fun to play and collect the cards. It's a good example on how to make a card game. As an eSport though it's retarded. Low skill ceiling and huge RNG makes for not very exciting storylines. Plus it's much drier than other eSports (MOBAs aside, I'd rather watch paint dry).
I have no doubts that the game is fun to play, even though I never played it myself. But as you said, I find it crazy that anyone finds it exciting when so much of the game you win or die on what card you draw and there's no skill involved.
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On December 16 2014 00:15 Hectorian wrote:
Of course the best games will be played.
Sc2 nowadays is only interesting if you're korean
Why? Do you not like watching high quality games? Or is it more important to you that the guy you're watching is from your country?
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On December 16 2014 00:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:11 Crot4le wrote:On December 16 2014 00:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament. It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason. The game is really fun to play and collect the cards. It's a good example on how to make a card game. As an eSport though it's retarded. Low skill ceiling and huge RNG makes for not very exciting storylines. Plus it's much drier than other eSports (MOBAs aside, I'd rather watch paint dry). I have no doubts that the game is fun to play, even though I never played it myself. But as you said, I find it crazy that anyone finds it exciting when so much of the game you win or die on what card you draw and there's no skill involved.
Hearthstone isnt an esport IMO. It is a card game played on computers. It will have crossover appeal into that genre of gaming but I don't think it compares well at all to the major esport titles in which things like speed accuracy and mechanics are so important.
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On December 16 2014 00:16 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:15 Hectorian wrote:
Of course the best games will be played.
Sc2 nowadays is only interesting if you're korean Why? Do you not like watching high quality games? Or is it more important to you that the guy you're watching is from your country?
95% of foreigners do not provide what is widely agreed to be a "high quality game".
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On December 16 2014 00:04 Foxxan wrote:
Iam happy about this. Blizzard needs to step up.
they won't, they have hearthstone and will have heroes of the storm in the future
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On December 15 2014 23:31 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:16 ivancype wrote:
It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2. The CS tournament was a major tournament. Dreamhack felt insignificant being sandwiched between Blizzcon, Homestory Cup X and IEM San Jose.
http://www.esports.gg/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Day3Dreamhack20141.jpg
Even if DH SC2 had Blizzcon like viewership it would be less than half of what CS;GO got
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I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game.
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On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game.
I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. 
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CSGO has been blowing up largely because of CSGO lounge and the betting all around. It's sad to see but SC2 will be back with LoTV.
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On December 16 2014 00:30 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
CSGO has been blowing up largely because of CSGO lounge and the betting all around. It's sad to see but SC2 will be back with LoTV.
Just like it came back to MLG...
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Sounds good to me. Let the players speak.
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On December 16 2014 00:18 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:04 Foxxan wrote:
Iam happy about this. Blizzard needs to step up. they won't, they have hearthstone and will have heroes of the storm in the future
Honestly feeling Blizzard would rather drop all the suppoirt for SC2 and focus on Hearthstone and Overwatch as their main esport titles because they feel a spot noone else use, but they're tied by Starcraft history.
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The new Dreamhack Bosses are literally Hitler!
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 00:35 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:18 Liquid`Ret wrote:On December 16 2014 00:04 Foxxan wrote:
Iam happy about this. Blizzard needs to step up. they won't, they have hearthstone and will have heroes of the storm in the future Honestly feeling Blizzard would rather drop all the suppoirt for SC2 and focus on Hearthstone and Overwatch as their main esport titles because they feel a spot noone else use, but they're tied by Starcraft history.
There isn't another RTS eSport that's doing well either. Also with their latest Hearthstone expansion focused on dialing UP the RNG (one of the biggest competitive complaints) it seems weird that they are trying to ramp up Hearthstone as an eSport.
Also the Overwatch comment is so completely baseless it's funny. The game isn't even in alpha.
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On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings.
Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs.
Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players.
As for DH, if you have a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business.
Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me.
HOW IS OVERWATCH GOING TO KILL WOW?!
they are different genres! WoW just had one of its most successful Expansion releases ever! This is totally baseless!
I DONT TRUST YOU AGHAIFDAIOFNADOFDIFNADNFDAIFMA
Everyone calm down!
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On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me.
SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay.
I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!).
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No surprise here. Demise of SC2 continues
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Come on people, DH won't refuse SC2 to France given how much passion the French audience has shown at Iron Squids and Nation Wars
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On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!).
Lol are you referring to the terrible TF2 EOTL disaster
Back to the topic, I think SC2 will be fine as long as it can stay in the dreamhack circuit. CS:GO is so big in europe right now, this was probably expected.
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On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!).
Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to.
Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of.
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The first seal has been broken.
Sad, but totally understandable if you look at the numbers that CSGO is pulling. Starcraft has been on decline for two years already, and the fifth doesn't look like it's going to get any better until the expansion hits.
Overwatch killing WoW, sounds hilariously wrong on so many levels.
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On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me.
that's the kind of comment that seeks to destroy my faith in this community.
I urge you to go to page 11 and look up the best selling PC game.
thank you.
http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
//edit: note that they differentiate between Video games and PC/Computer games. With video games including consoles and handhelds.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 00:47 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to. Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of.
Oh maybe I missed a joke
Unless you're serious and you don't see how poorly Rift/SWTOR/GW2/everything else labeled a WoW killer is doing
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On December 16 2014 00:46 Estancia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Lol are you referring to the terrible TF2 EOTL disaster Back to the topic, I think SC2 will be fine as long as it can stay in the dreamhack circuit. CS:GO is so big in europe right now, this was probably expected.
I haven't been paying attention to TF2 lately, I keep hearing that EotL was bad and useless but haven't looked into it myself. I was talking about UGC and how the winners get a custom in game pin as a prize from valve instead of real money
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Expected but tbh, CS always ment way more to ppl in EU than starcraft until now.
If CSS wouldn't have been such a joke of a game, SC2 would have always been the #2 game on DH
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On December 16 2014 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:47 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to. Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of. Oh maybe I missed a joke Unless you're serious and you don't see how poorly Rift/SWTOR/GW2/everything else labeled a WoW killer is doing
It was a joke alluding to how every time an MMO/Moba/ARPG/Card game/mobile app/new monopoly edition etc is released, it's heralded as the inevitable doom of WoW.
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I absolutely hate this decision. Money money money is the word of life.
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CSGO is kinda fun. Better than dota and hearhtstone by far.
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On December 16 2014 00:49 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. that's the kind of comment that seeks to destroy my faith in this community. I urge you to go to page 11 and look up the best selling PC game. thank you. http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf//edit: note that they differentiate between Video games and PC/Computer games. With video games including consoles and handhelds.
Key word in that sentence is SELLING. You can't sell a free game like LoL or Dota. Also doesn't include digital sales (Steam), which I imagine is where a lot of CS:GO's sales come from.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
So, from what I hear, there was no designated main stage game in 2014. If I understand correctly (which I think I do), this is no bump down for SC2 rather than a bump up got the obviously most popular Dreamhack game (far more popular than Dota and LoL).
Calm down
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On December 16 2014 00:11 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 15 2014 23:56 Boucot wrote:
DreamHack France announced LoL, CS:GO and Hearthstone as the FIRST three games that'll be played. More will come later and with the size of the french SC2 scene, it's pretty safe to assume there will be a SC2 tournament. It actually upsets me that Hearthstone is bigger than Sc2 at this point. I find that game laughably boring, yet a lot people love it for some reason. The game is really fun to play and collect the cards. It's a good example on how to make a card game. As an eSport though it's retarded. Low skill ceiling and huge RNG makes for not very exciting storylines. Plus it's much drier than other eSports (MOBAs aside, I'd rather watch paint dry).
even competitive pokemon is better than hearthstone. seriously.
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Was wondering when this was going to happen, CS has such strong roots in Sweden/Dreamhack.
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Russian Federation232 Posts
On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
i love both SC2 and CS:GO - your statement is a bit silly.
CS:GO is a great game, valve has a long tradition of making great FPS - imo the best ones out there.
CS 1.6 was an amazing esport to watch with great team and personalities.
this has nothing to do with "quantity" of course CS:GO has way more viewers, but it's also a great game.
SC2 has a very limited audience- just look at twitch every day, LoL, DOTA, Heartstone and CS:GO always have triple amount than SC2 - so it's a smart business move on their side - also using a great game.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 00:56 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On December 16 2014 00:47 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to. Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of. Oh maybe I missed a joke Unless you're serious and you don't see how poorly Rift/SWTOR/GW2/everything else labeled a WoW killer is doing It was a joke alluding to how every time an MMO/Moba/ARPG/Card game/mobile app/new monopoly edition etc is released, it's heralded as the inevitable doom of WoW.
Your sense of humor is always way3sophisticated5me
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 01:04 Noonius wrote:
DH is going full MLG
Except at least DH is doing it for CS and not CoD
Also DH is still doing SC2 at least
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On December 16 2014 01:05 Darkhorse wrote:Except at least DH is doing it for CS and not CoD Also DH is still doing SC2 at least
well... we hope they're doing sc2 at least.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Not surprising, CS:GO has been improving at a rapid rate.
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On December 16 2014 01:05 Darkhorse wrote:Except at least DH is doing it for CS and not CoD Also DH is still doing SC2 at least
CSGO is going to be played in February at the MLG X Games, a crossover with espn or something. It is supposed to be huge. Not sure of MLG even does COD anymore. CS is just taking its rightful place atop all of esports
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On December 16 2014 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:47 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to. Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of. Oh maybe I missed a joke Unless you're serious and you don't see how poorly Rift/SWTOR/GW2/everything else labeled a WoW killer is doing
Wait, Guild Wars 2 was totally fun for like 1 month before it fell into oblivion. I'm somehow still on the newsletter though.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 16 2014 01:11 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 01:05 Darkhorse wrote:On December 16 2014 01:04 Noonius wrote:
DH is going full MLG
Except at least DH is doing it for CS and not CoD Also DH is still doing SC2 at least CSGO is going to be played in February at the MLG X Games, a crossover with espn or something. It is supposed to be huge. Not sure of MLG even does COD anymore. CS is just taking its rightful place atop all of esports
MLG absolutely still does CoD. It's a little obnoxious :D
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On December 16 2014 01:01 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:49 Doublemint wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. that's the kind of comment that seeks to destroy my faith in this community. I urge you to go to page 11 and look up the best selling PC game. thank you. http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf//edit: note that they differentiate between Video games and PC/Computer games. With video games including consoles and handhelds. Key word in that sentence is SELLING. You can't sell a free game like LoL or Dota. Also doesn't include digital sales (Steam), which I imagine is where a lot of CS:GO's sales come from.
who argued otherwise? you are bringing a point to the discussion that has no merit other than... who knows why you bring it here.
I imagine steam also sells games, including CS:GO. an uneducated guess but who knows.
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On December 16 2014 01:04 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:56 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:49 Darkhorse wrote:On December 16 2014 00:47 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:On December 16 2014 00:24 boxerfred wrote:On December 16 2014 00:22 ejozl wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Blizzard is pulling for SC2 and HotS to be the esports. Hearthstone is their casual game and no matter how well it does as an esports they will still keep on designing it as a casual game. I'm betting that in the long run, Hearthstone will make more money than sc2. But that's just a wild guess on salty feelings. Long run? HS is probably more profitable already. Sales for Sc2 were ok, but not great, and Blizzard are running WCS with massive losses. It's a money sink which luckily is also a passion project for some of the big dogs. Sc2 was never going to make real money, it is too hard and asks too much of the players. As for DH, if you a choice between 2 games for the main stage, where one of them pulls 6-7 times the viewers compared to the other one...it's about as easy of a business decision as you're ever likely to make. It has nothing to do with Robert being gone or ded gaem or any of that stuff. It's just business. Edit: Overwatch is going to kill WoW. Trust me. SC2 was the best selling RTS of all time, was it not? I wouldn't call that just okay. I could see Overwatch getting big if it has the right support. TF2 has a small but dedicated scene and they have basically 0 support by valve (except for special custom cosmetics, of course!). Being the best selling RTS in 2011-2012 means about as much as being the best long distance swimmer in the Kalahari Desert. No one makes RTS games anymore, because they just don't move the needle like they used to. Also, Darkhorse, I promise, it's actually true this time. Just like all the other times, when it almost happened. Kind of. Oh maybe I missed a joke Unless you're serious and you don't see how poorly Rift/SWTOR/GW2/everything else labeled a WoW killer is doing It was a joke alluding to how every time an MMO/Moba/ARPG/Card game/mobile app/new monopoly edition etc is released, it's heralded as the inevitable doom of WoW. Your sense of humor is always way3sophisticated5me
I'll try to k33p it str8 from now on m8. I tend to laugh a lot at people falling over and walking into things usually.
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I knew this would happen when Ohlen was removed... Oh well :/
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Starcraft will slowly wither and die with this change
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On December 16 2014 01:23 NiHiLuSsc2 wrote:
Starcraft will slowly wither and die with this change
That's being a bit dramatic, it's not like Sc2 was only surviving because of DH. Sc2 didn't die after MLG dropped it, did it? (i know i have no right to call someone else out on this but still)
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On December 16 2014 01:02 Zealously wrote:
from what I hear, there was no designated main stage game in 2014. If I understand correctly (which I think I do), this is no bump down for SC2 rather than a bump up got the obviously most popular Dreamhack game
where are you "hearing this" ?
"a source inside DreamHack has told HLTV.org that CS:GO will replace Starcraft 2 as the main game for the 2015 event circuit, which means full production and main stage privileges in all tournaments."
http://www.hltv.org/news/13830-csgo-to-become-dhs-main-game
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Cs:go had 400k+ viewers last Dreamhack, so it's quite obvious step. RTS as a genre is slowly dying and blizz fucked up SC2 every since broodlord-infestor and sealed the deal with photon overcharge + swarmhosts. Unfortunately LOTV is not going to fix the core issues affecting sc2's popularity compared to other games. It's only a matter of time when organizations drop sc2 altogether.
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On December 15 2014 22:56 Headnoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! Replace SC2 with BW and i'd agree with you. Makes total sense when CS absolutely dominates all other numbers at dreamhack.
Or Starbow.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 16 2014 01:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 01:02 Zealously wrote:
from what I hear, there was no designated main stage game in 2014. If I understand correctly (which I think I do), this is no bump down for SC2 rather than a bump up got the obviously most popular Dreamhack game where are you "hearing this" ? "a source inside DreamHack has told HLTV.org that CS:GO will replace Starcraft 2 as the main game for the 2015 event circuit, which means full production and main stage privileges in all tournaments." http://www.hltv.org/news/13830-csgo-to-become-dhs-main-game
My statement is one half personal experience (I went to Dreamhack Winter 2013, Dreamhack Summer 2014 and Dreamhack Winter 2014) and one half explanation from a guy I know that works with Dreamhack. As he tells me, and as was clear during all of 2014, SC2 might have been the "main game" but if that were the case then only in name. LoL, Dota and CS all had bigger stages/tournaments at some point during the year, and there was nothing to indicate SC2 being given preferential treatment as would be proper for a "main game".
People are too quick to jump to conclusions.
Edit: to be clear, things might change. We just don't know how exactly that will happen yet, and assuming that Dreamhack are axing SC2 completely after only hearing this is stupid.
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That's a smart decision for DH and cool for CS I think. But overall not really a huge deal for sc2, I had no idea it was the main game and I'm sure we will still see awesome DH sc2 tournaments in 2015. One of my worries is, how I'm supposed to watch all the sc2 content we will have in 2015, so if that means 1 or 2 fewer sc2 DHs I would actually not complain. Makes the other events feel more special.
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On December 16 2014 01:25 Jarree wrote:
Cs:go had 400k+ viewers last Dreamhack, so it's quite obvious step. RTS as a genre is slowly dying and blizz fucked up SC2 every since broodlord-infestor and sealed the deal with photon overcharge + swarmhosts. Unfortunately LOTV is not going to fix the core issues affecting sc2's popularity compared to other games. It's only a matter of time when organizations drop sc2 altogether.
What are you doing in the SC2 general section then? This is basically a long way to say "#dedgaem".
Seriously guys, wtf is wrong with you. This is not the first event stepping down on SC2, and it won't be the last. And as soon as viewer numbers go up again, they will pick it back up.
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I don't get why people are sad about it, as long as we have tourneys I will be happy. Just because TotalBiscuit's erect penis grew smaller doesn't mean it cant support SC2.
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I don't know, that is like, totally ok.
I liked Wings of Liberty in the early stages.
I was not excited about Hots and bought it way late.
... I am however excited about the pvz games I see coming from the Lotv custom Mod, I am actually tentatively optimistic that blizz might even produce a fun game deserving of it's die hard community that kept it alive for longer than any other game could have stayed while only rarely delivering truly exciting matches.
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On December 16 2014 01:41 Kazahk wrote:
I don't get why people are sad about it, as long as we have tourneys I will be happy. Just because TotalBiscuit's erect penis grew smaller doesn't mean it cant support SC2.
dude's beat cancer and one of his boys made Code S in the hardest qualifier in the history of GSL.
supporting sc2 is boring TB's penis. it's hungry for more. (take care Genna)
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Thank you for posting this. Good to keep up with esports news.
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United States33385 Posts
the title of 'main game' doesn't really matter much to me
what will matter is when they announce the exact # of stops and total prize money for the 2015 circuit
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
We're so dead SpoTV made their own league and we get another season of PL
So sad TT
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I find it weird that now the Korean scene is bigger than ever, people are so negative about SC2 not being the most important game at this LAN. Tournaments will come, tournaments will go, but RTS as a whole has never been bigger than today. BW never had this many big tournaments outside of Korea, or even in Korea right now, and WC3 was never as big as SC2 is right now. RTS hasn't actually shrunk, it's just that other games are developing faster. FPS and MOBA's have had more players compared to RTS ever since competitive games have been released in those genres, so it makes sense that more people would watch those as well. We have over 30 Premier Tournaments each year, so basically a tournament with great players every other week, and during all that Proleague with some of the best players around.
Having more people watch games in their free time can only be positive for SC2 in the end. More people will spend time on this as a regular activity, also attracting new viewers to SC2. When the CS: GO stream has a break, they might switch over to see what other games, like SC2 are all about, and some of them will really like it and start playing/watching themselves. CS: GO being the "main game" is fine, it shouldn't be about whether or not SC2 is bigger than LoL/Dota2/CS:GO/HS/other HotS, but that SC2 maintains or expands on the viewers and tournaments it has now.
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On December 16 2014 01:39 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 01:25 Jarree wrote:
Cs:go had 400k+ viewers last Dreamhack, so it's quite obvious step. RTS as a genre is slowly dying and blizz fucked up SC2 every since broodlord-infestor and sealed the deal with photon overcharge + swarmhosts. Unfortunately LOTV is not going to fix the core issues affecting sc2's popularity compared to other games. It's only a matter of time when organizations drop sc2 altogether. What are you doing in the SC2 general section then? This is basically a long way to say "#dedgaem". Seriously guys, wtf is wrong with you. This is not the first event stepping down on SC2, and it won't be the last. And as soon as viewer numbers go up again, they will pick it back up.
Why are you angry at me? If you close your eyes and deny things it won't make them any better. I'm still here, but it's quite obvious lots of others aren't.
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On December 16 2014 01:52 Lorning wrote:
We're so dead SpoTV made their own league and we get another season of PL
So sad TT
Don't forget 3 Kespa Cups in 2015!
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On December 15 2014 22:57 [F_]aths wrote:
This is sad news.
Well, when LotV brings SC2 back to new heights, the audience should remember that Dreamhack is another LAN with no real Starcraft authority.
what the heck does this even mean lmao
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There will be bubbles, and those bubbles will pop, and then there'll be another bubble. Sc2 isn't going away. Things are looking bright for us in Korea, which, as much as I love dreamhack, excites me more than this dissapoints me. The fact that sc2 was still DH's main game, even if it was in title only, actually surprised me. And frankly, if another game has to take that title, out of the current contenders I'm glad it was csgo.
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Kinda good to see CS getting back in shape. I really enjoyed CS into Warcraft at the old IEMs. FPS and RTS have always been a good combo if you wanted to have the maximum audience attraction.
Let us see what the DH people do at the end though, as they might have unleashed silly people that might do silly things after kicking out the old Boss. I am not to worried though.
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On December 16 2014 00:05 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:57 okum wrote:On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here. I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely. It would be, in the same way cycling would be, if the results weren't completely undermined by constant scandals and cheating.
Yeah, because other games (including Starcraft) have always been totally scandal and cheating free, right? lol
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Long as we have a stream and an audience, we'll make do.
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meh. i'm not one of those who obsess over whether my interests are popular. it's just a game and i can't do anything to control its life cycle. cest la vie
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Kind of sad for SC2, but i dont mind. CS:GO was just awesome, really looking forward to the next DH!
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Reading the comments on viewer counts, it seems like a reasonable choice, assuming that more viewers also means more people coming. Fps aren't really my things though.
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Not really a surprise tbh. SC2 has had a good run at DreamHack but is on a downward slope of popularity.
Will be interesting to see what the prize pool will be if its no longer the main game and the quality of players travelling to attend it
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France9034 Posts
On December 16 2014 02:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 00:05 Crot4le wrote:On December 15 2014 22:57 okum wrote:On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports! CS:GO is awesome. Nothing wrong here. I would be highly surprised if SC2 goes away entirely. It would be, in the same way cycling would be, if the results weren't completely undermined by constant scandals and cheating. Yeah, because other games (including Starcraft) have always been totally scandal and cheating free, right? lol
Yeah, people need to calm down with that CS scandal. It was quite huge, but so did the matchfixing scandal in BW a few years ago.
SC2 has been somewhat quite clean though with regards to that if I remember correctly (I don't remember of such scandals, though there's been many with teams/contracts/scams etc.)
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On December 16 2014 02:05 brickrd wrote:meh. i'm not one of those who obsess over whether my interests are popular. it's just a game and i can't do anything to control its life cycle. cest la vie
But less tournament is kind of a bummer. Also, I totally thought of that guy they fired some short time ago, and they said nothing would change about SC2 lol. Guess that was just straight-up bullshit after all.
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No problem for me, if they keep supporting the game i will watch, if not something different will pop up
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France9034 Posts
On December 16 2014 02:05 brickrd wrote:meh. i'm not one of those who obsess over whether my interests are popular. it's just a game and i can't do anything to control its life cycle. cest la vie
Well you can do something about it by tuning in for tournaments. Which you may already do if you're actually interested in the game
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It was to be expected, as recent SC2 broadcasts at DH have been plagued by loud cheering for other games. I was super into CS and other FPS games in the early 00's, so all this hype now makes me kind of sad for being born too early.
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Not really surprising. Not sure what that will entail exactly. I don't think it'll make too much of a difference for those watching from home though.
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After reading this I was actually more than surprised that SC2 has still been the main game - you can think about FPS, LoL, etc. all you want, but it's a fact that they attract more viewers at the moment. It would be pretty stupid of DH to give SC2 privileges (if they have received any in the past anyways), and then I would be worried about the management of DH in general - they are a business organisation after all.
Having DH make smart business decisions increases the chances that DH will continue to be successful, which in turn increases our chances that they will continue to provide a stage for SC2 for some time to come.
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On December 15 2014 22:51 Pino wrote:
As long as SC2 still has a small stage, I'm fine with that.
It's perfectly normal that CS, with it's viewers numbers, take a bigger role within DreamHack's circuit
Quite logical they'd replace SC2 for CS given the viewership.
Not much to argue.
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On December 16 2014 02:26 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 02:05 brickrd wrote:meh. i'm not one of those who obsess over whether my interests are popular. it's just a game and i can't do anything to control its life cycle. cest la vie Well you can do something about it by tuning in for tournaments. Which you may already do if you're actually interested in the game that's my whole point. i can't control whether other people watch, only myself. if i watch a tournament its because i want to see the games, not because i care about "supporting the scene" or w/e
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Money, its all about the money. Sad but understandable.
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Can I leave this tweet here to improve the mood?
New maps hype?
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About time they released the new maps info, the season doesn't last that much longer and tournaments need to know soon.
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Doesn't bother me since it's not like I ever go to the events. As long as the quality of the stream is still up to par then all is good in my eyes.
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Will this last until Legacy of the Void or straight through it?
CS:GO's momentum will decide.
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On December 15 2014 23:28 johnbongham wrote:
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game.
Didnt know this, valve in my eyes seems to do a lot right.
Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft.
Like someone else mentioned. They'd already had SC2 on a side stage at the finals.
However, DreamHack, you could learn much from companies like XMG, who care enough to explain stuff. It doesn't harm to do so. Good public relations isn't a bad thing you know.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hm8cYnY.jpg)
Understandable. Though I don't know how accurate this chart is.
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see it coming. robert was the main supporter of sc2, he's gone.
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On December 16 2014 03:20 JimSocks wrote:
see it coming. robert was the main supporter of sc2, he's gone.
Like a few have said, he had no infuence on which games were focused on.
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On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:28 johnbongham wrote:
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game. Didnt know this, valve in my eyes seems to do a lot right. Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft. Like someone else mentioned. They'd already had SC2 on a side stage at the finals. However, DreamHack, you could learn much from companies like XMG, who care enough to explain stuff. It doesn't harm to do so. Good public relations isn't a bad thing you know. Understandable. Though I don't know how accurate this chart is.
I think it ispretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account the swedish television viewers CSGO had.
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On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:
Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft.
I don't think this is accurate at all.
Firstly, FPS games have an extremely high learning curve as well, especially one like CS GO. In fact, a bit problem with broadcasting FPS games is that many viewers don't understand the game well enough to know what's going on from a single player's perspective. Hardcore gamers will love it, but casual viewers are easily turned off by FPS broadcasts.
Secondly, League and Dota have some of the steepest learning curves out there (while considered MOBAs, they officially fall into the category of RTS) - and they're constantly at the top as far as Twitch.tv viewership goes. StarCraft was there once, but it's not the hip thing lately.
There's plenty of room for CS GO to grow. This isn't bad news for StarCraft. LotV will see viewership numbers climb once again.
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Sad news for SC people but not really surprising IMO. CS had so much more viewers than SC2 last DreamHack.
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casual games have more viewer and the money starts destroying Esports.
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On December 16 2014 03:28 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:
Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft.
I don't think this is accurate at all. Firstly, FPS games have an extremely high learning curve as well, especially one like CS GO. In fact, a bit problem with broadcasting FPS games is that many viewers don't understand the game well enough to know what's going on from a single player's perspective. Hardcore gamers will love it, but casual viewers are easily turned off by FPS broadcasts. Secondly, League and Dota have some of the steepest learning curves out there (while considered MOBAs, they officially fall into the category of RTS) - and they're constantly at the top as far as Twitch.tv viewership goes. StarCraft was there once, but it's not the hip thing lately. There's plenty of room for CS GO to grow. This isn't bad news for StarCraft. LotV will see viewership numbers climb once again.
I would agree with you if we were talking cs 1.6 but csgo has immensely improved the spectating with the addition of player outlines through walls and the player health/equipment side bars. It is so much better than it was even 3-4 years ago. I can actually follow the game. Also, another cool thing they added recently is the ability to follow grenade trajectories so you can see first hand all the cool grenade angles players use.
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I don't really see this as a big deal. DH still has Sc2 as a game on board it can always make a comeback when LotV comes out or it just won't be main stage but still have it on board is solid
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would be pretty stupid by the dreamhack makers to not do that. sc2 still no ded game. :p
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On December 16 2014 01:29 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 01:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 16 2014 01:02 Zealously wrote:
from what I hear, there was no designated main stage game in 2014. If I understand correctly (which I think I do), this is no bump down for SC2 rather than a bump up got the obviously most popular Dreamhack game where are you "hearing this" ? "a source inside DreamHack has told HLTV.org that CS:GO will replace Starcraft 2 as the main game for the 2015 event circuit, which means full production and main stage privileges in all tournaments." http://www.hltv.org/news/13830-csgo-to-become-dhs-main-game My statement is one half personal experience (I went to Dreamhack Winter 2013, Dreamhack Summer 2014 and Dreamhack Winter 2014) and one half explanation from a guy I know that works with Dreamhack. As he tells me, and as was clear during all of 2014, SC2 might have been the "main game" but if that were the case then only in name. LoL, Dota and CS all had bigger stages/tournaments at some point during the year, and there was nothing to indicate SC2 being given preferential treatment as would be proper for a "main game". People are too quick to jump to conclusions. Edit: to be clear, things might change. We just don't know how exactly that will happen yet, and assuming that Dreamhack are axing SC2 completely after only hearing this is stupid.
thx for the additional info.
neither the original quote in post #1, nor your post contains a named source working for Dreamhack willing to speak on the record.
can u edit post #1 when someone at Dreamhack does say something on the record?
otherwise this thread will just be speculation about rumours.
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On December 16 2014 03:28 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I don't think this is accurate at all.
I think it's very accurate! The principle behind FPS is childsplay. You shoot them before they shoot you. Simples!
Of course, the skill required to get to the top of FPS, MOBA or RTS is the same. Incredible dedication. And yes there's a whole host of stuff to learn other than my shoot them point.
FPS has mass market appeal for this reason, you could say well isn't Starcraft the same? Blow them up before they do the same to you. But if you don't play Starcraft you can't understand what you're seeing - it's all lasers and stuff.
Whereas with FPS when the crowd roar, it's obvious why. Why the crowd roar in Starcraft, if you haven't played the game, or followed it for a time it's a case of huh?
FPS is a lot more accessible for this reason.
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This is really sad, I knew this is what would happen when Ohlen was fired...
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 16 2014 03:35 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 01:29 Zealously wrote:On December 16 2014 01:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 16 2014 01:02 Zealously wrote:
from what I hear, there was no designated main stage game in 2014. If I understand correctly (which I think I do), this is no bump down for SC2 rather than a bump up got the obviously most popular Dreamhack game where are you "hearing this" ? "a source inside DreamHack has told HLTV.org that CS:GO will replace Starcraft 2 as the main game for the 2015 event circuit, which means full production and main stage privileges in all tournaments." http://www.hltv.org/news/13830-csgo-to-become-dhs-main-game My statement is one half personal experience (I went to Dreamhack Winter 2013, Dreamhack Summer 2014 and Dreamhack Winter 2014) and one half explanation from a guy I know that works with Dreamhack. As he tells me, and as was clear during all of 2014, SC2 might have been the "main game" but if that were the case then only in name. LoL, Dota and CS all had bigger stages/tournaments at some point during the year, and there was nothing to indicate SC2 being given preferential treatment as would be proper for a "main game". People are too quick to jump to conclusions. Edit: to be clear, things might change. We just don't know how exactly that will happen yet, and assuming that Dreamhack are axing SC2 completely after only hearing this is stupid. thx for the additional info. neither the original quote in post #1, nor your post contains a named source working for Dreamhack willing to speak on the record. can u edit post #1 when someone at Dreamhack does say something on the record? otherwise this thread will just be speculation about rumours.
Naturally.
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What people have to take into account is:
CS is for Sweden what Starcraft is for Korea. In terms of general interest in Sweden, SC2 has been big ever since beta, much because of the Swedish players performing well.
Also mainstream media recently started picking up on eSports coverage, but hardly anyone knew about the korean BW-scene back when it was still active.
Counter-Strike in Sweden has been big ever since the first betas, played in LAN-cafés or at home with 56k/ISDN.
Pretty much every kid with a computer played CS, and there was a s**tload of Swedes all over Quakenet organizing and participating in leagues and cups or playing mixes and pcws all day long.
Sweden also had a lot of success internationally, and the best players have already been considered sort-of-celebrities for a good ten years.
As the biggest event in Sweden, not giving CS:GO more time in the main spotlight would be a very unwise business decision, comparable to Korea opting for CS:GO instead of SC2. (Even though LoL ate all the TV time)
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On December 16 2014 03:36 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:28 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I don't think this is accurate at all.
I think it's very accurate! The principle behind FPS is childsplay. You shoot them before they shoot you. Simples! Of course, the skill required to get to the top of FPS, MOBA or RTS is the same. Incredible dedication. And yes there's a whole host of stuff to learn other than my shoot them point. FPS has mass market appeal for this reason, you could say well isn't Starcraft the same? Blow them up before they do the same to you. But if you don't play Starcraft you can't understand what you're seeing - it's all lasers and stuff. Whereas with FPS when the crowd roar, it's obvious why. Why the crowd roar in Starcraft, if you haven't played the game, or followed it for a time it's a case of huh? FPS is a lot more accessible for this reason.
I don't think that argument can be won.
In StarCraft, when one army annihilates another, the crowd roars - and it's obvious why. In League or Dota, when one team wins a team fight over another, the crows roars - and it's obvious why. In Street Fighter, when one character pulls off a heavy combo on another and wins the fight, leading to the crowd to roar - it's obvious why.
They are all equally accessible on the outside in this way. Heck, I understood that about RTS games after playing C&C when I was 8 years old. However, to get deeper into the game, there is a lot of understanding to acquire. And FPS games are just as deep as any other, albeit in different ways.
Your argument would make sense to me if FPS games had an overwhelming mass appeal - if they held, without question, the highest viewership among all and any esport games - but they don't. This example with CS:GO and Dreamhack is interesting, as it's showing the CS:GO is gaining a surge of popularity. But until it sits on top for a long time as the undisputed king of esports for months on end (similar to how League has done in the last year+) I don't think we draw a conclusion that FPS games are easier for casuals to get into and enjoy watching.
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On December 16 2014 03:24 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:On December 15 2014 23:28 johnbongham wrote:
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game. Didnt know this, valve in my eyes seems to do a lot right. Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft. Like someone else mentioned. They'd already had SC2 on a side stage at the finals. However, DreamHack, you could learn much from companies like XMG, who care enough to explain stuff. It doesn't harm to do so. Good public relations isn't a bad thing you know. Understandable. Though I don't know how accurate this chart is. I think it ispretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account the swedish television viewers CSGO had.
Weren't all the games on TV?
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On December 16 2014 03:53 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:24 johnbongham wrote:On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:On December 15 2014 23:28 johnbongham wrote:
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game. Didnt know this, valve in my eyes seems to do a lot right. Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft. Like someone else mentioned. They'd already had SC2 on a side stage at the finals. However, DreamHack, you could learn much from companies like XMG, who care enough to explain stuff. It doesn't harm to do so. Good public relations isn't a bad thing you know. Understandable. Though I don't know how accurate this chart is. I think it ispretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account the swedish television viewers CSGO had. Weren't all the games on TV?
Maybe, but I am pretty sure that most swedish viewers tuned in to watch NIP in the final.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Meh, CS:GO only got so many viewers because of the scandal this last DH, Yeah, it had a lot of viewers before the scandal, but i bet after it the viewers increased significantly.
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Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet.
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it will still remain in the circuit.
cant really blame them for doing that, honestly.
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On December 15 2014 22:50 OnSpeed wrote:
Out with quality. In with quantity :/
RTS is the true eSports!
GO may not be as skillful as 1.6, but it is still a quality level eSport imo.
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To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack.
Well deserved spot for CS:GO!
edit:
On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet.
Nah european CS has been pretty good for years
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CS:GO is awesome! Looking forward to it!
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous.
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On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years
Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it.
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On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous.
I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball.
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On December 16 2014 04:31 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it.
There is a cs scene in Asia. They play a rehashed version of cs 1.6 called cs online. They are also pretty bad at it lol. There is also a cs ripoff called crossfire which is the worst esport ive ever seen in terms of spectating and probably everything else as well.
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On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball.
Because it was a Swedish team playing in Sweden in the biggest match of the year. Its exciting, man, and people do cheer for every basket in basketball.
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
On December 16 2014 04:35 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball. Because it was a Swedish team playing in Sweden in the biggest match of the year. Its exciting, man, and people do cheer for every basket in basketball.
They do indeed. And I get why they are cheering. CS games are very quick and fast paced. The same way league can start of super fast. It's an advantage for spectator sports to have an exciting early game hence the worker count change in lotv.
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On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball.
people like you piss me off. The SCII esports experience is completely different from the CS experience is completely different from the the LoL experience is completely different from the ......... experience.
Yet you're acting like an ignorant child when all the games are great in their own way but because you see CS as just an adversary to SCII you try to completely ignore or degrade the experiences and moments that make CS such an awesome game when every game has unique experiences completely different from others.
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On December 16 2014 04:40 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:35 johnbongham wrote:On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball. Because it was a Swedish team playing in Sweden in the biggest match of the year. Its exciting, man, and people do cheer for every basket in basketball. They do indeed. And I get why they are cheering. CS games are very quick and fast paced. The same way league can start of super fast. It's an advantage for spectator sports to have an exciting early game hence the worker count change in lotv.
I think when you compare sc2 to csgo in terms of exciting moments a big thing that factors into it is the pacing of the game. To win a cs match you need to be the first team to win 16 rounds. This means that a team can theoretically win the first half 14-1 but then lose the second half 15-0. In sc2, you pretty much know when a guy is dead and sometimes you even get preemptive GG's like idra for example or even teaja that really reduce a lot of the game to simple visuals that lack any real tension. In cs, each round could be a turning point where a team has made the required adjustments to counter their opponent. Also, each round each team basically chooses a different 'build' aka buy in cs terms, like what guns, grenades, and setups they use while taking their current economic situation into account. These kinds of things make 'getting a frag' a lot more important than what you see at face-value. A guy with a pistol who's team is saving that manages to take out a rifler and get his weapon is a really big deal, much more consequential than simply 'getting a frag'.
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On December 16 2014 04:45 mudkipkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball. people like you piss me off. The SCII esports experience is completely different from the CS experience is completely different from the the LoL experience is completely different from the ......... experience. Yet you're acting like an ignorant child when all the games are great in their own way but because you see CS as just an adversary to SCII you try to completely ignore or degrade the experiences and moments that make CS such an awesome game when every game has unique experiences completely different from others.
Easy buddy, I'm not trying to degrade anything. I get that it's great in it's own way, I guess I just have a different way of viewing the games I like than someone who's really into CS:GO.
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On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball.
I read this, and the first thing to pop into my mind was a scene from a sit-com called The IT Crowd. It has a clip which sums this up soooo bloody perfectly.
+ Show Spoiler +
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The more surprising news to me was that SC2 was still its Main Game. Would have thought it would have been replaced by Dota/LoL by now like everything else.
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
On December 16 2014 04:49 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:40 BisuDagger wrote:On December 16 2014 04:35 johnbongham wrote:On December 16 2014 04:33 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 16 2014 04:30 BisuDagger wrote:
All I heard at dreamhack was lots of constant cheering in the background during SC2 games. I'm not complaining about the lack of shock and awe moments in SC2, rts games are about building momentum. I feel like the bigger problem is huge amounts of downtime mixed in with the lack of caster attempts to get the audience more involved. Korean casting and tournaments involve and electric 3 person team and the audience is equipped with blowup clapper swag. At this past dreamhack, the audience looked exhausted. Unfortunately I have no solution to offer. GSLs have shorter casts and a smaller set amount of games each cast. Long 3 day tournaments like this seem to take the wind out of SC2 fans. Meanwhile, CS fans are going nuts over every single kill. Honestly, their excitement left me feeling jealous. I never quite got why every kill was cheered so loudly. It's like "oh, the player did the thing he was supposed to do and will happen many more times this round". It's like if the crowd cheered loudly for every single basket in basketball. Because it was a Swedish team playing in Sweden in the biggest match of the year. Its exciting, man, and people do cheer for every basket in basketball. They do indeed. And I get why they are cheering. CS games are very quick and fast paced. The same way league can start of super fast. It's an advantage for spectator sports to have an exciting early game hence the worker count change in lotv. I think when you compare sc2 to csgo in terms of exciting moments a big thing that factors into it is the pacing of the game. To win a cs match you need to be the first team to win 16 rounds. This means that a team can theoretically win the first half 14-1 but then lose the second half 15-0. In sc2, you pretty much know when a guy is dead and sometimes you even get preemptive GG's like idra for example or even teaja that really reduce a lot of the game to simple visuals that lack any real tension. In cs, each round could be a turning point where a team has made the required adjustments to counter their opponent. Also, each round each team basically chooses a different 'build' aka buy in cs terms, like what guns, grenades, and setups they use while taking their current economic situation into account. These kinds of things make 'getting a frag' a lot more important than what you see at face-value. A guy with a pistol who's team is saving that manages to take out a rifler and get his weapon is a really big deal, much more consequential than simply 'getting a frag'.
Completely agree. Even reading your description above just sounds exciting even though I'm not a go viewer. CS 1.6 was always exciting to watch during BW downtime too.
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On December 15 2014 23:19 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:16 ivancype wrote:
It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2. Sums up my thoughts pretty well. Well be interesting to see if there's a hit to the prize pool.
The production quality of the SC2 shows, at DH and in general, has gotten much stronger recently. Hopefully LotV will help bring back interest and give the numbers a boost as well.
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lotv can't come fast enough
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On December 16 2014 05:02 Jampackedeon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 23:19 Plexa wrote:On December 15 2014 23:16 ivancype wrote:
It is not a unreasonable decision at all, CS:GO had around 7x more viewers than SC2 this last DH.
It is just kinda sad for SC2. Sums up my thoughts pretty well. Well be interesting to see if there's a hit to the prize pool. The production quality of the SC2 shows, at DH and in general, has gotten much stronger recently. Hopefully LotV will help bring back interest and give the numbers a boost as well.
Eh, honestly I was a little less than impressed with production quality at this last DH. Something seemed...off, but it was a tad unusual for them so maybe there was something going on at the venue.
I do think that they have too much downtime though, that has to hurt viewership. I know I tune out a lot during long downtimes and don't always come back right away.
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On December 16 2014 05:04 Noonius wrote:
lotv can't come fast enough
LotV won't magically fix the playerbase, though.
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On December 16 2014 04:31 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it.
If you expect Koreans to dominate CS scene anytime in the future, you are up for a bigger dissapointment than Kespa fans with their elephants on sc2.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On December 16 2014 05:08 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:31 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it. If you expect Koreans to dominate CS scene anytime in the future, you are up for a bigger dissapointment than Kespa fans with their elephants on sc2.
At least they can dominate the Korean CS game crossfire :>
Crossfire the elephant in the room?
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I am not surprised, really. I think it won't be a big problem in the short run. But I could see a future where national tv like svt or the other media outlets start to drop sc2 in favour of cs and lol. That'll be more problematic for us.
And this is not me saying "daed gaem" but rather that I am surprised that sc2 has remained a frontline title for so many different things even while it has a smaller base of people watching than the other games. It won't mean the death for sc2 but it's not gonna be fun.
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On December 16 2014 05:08 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 04:31 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it. If you expect Koreans to dominate CS scene anytime in the future, you are up for a bigger dissapointment than Kespa fans with their elephants on sc2.
Not sure why one is related with the other. Sure, the Kespa elephants might have performed worse than some people anticipated, but it's definitely not because of the European or NA players, haha. ^.^
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Its nice to see that most people on TL don't seem to mind anymore. SC2 has its nice niche role, and will continue to draw in around the same number of viewers for probably a few more years. I feel like most of the people who wanted sc2 to be the next big thing have moved on to other games, so all that's left is a slightly more mature audience. Its popularity is certainly not going to increase, but its not that important for SC2 to be the main draw. It has its nice little audience, and is entertaining for its people . Its sufficient
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On December 16 2014 05:16 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 05:08 Godwrath wrote:On December 16 2014 04:31 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 16 2014 04:25 DinosaurPoop wrote:To be completely fair CSGO completely wiped the floor with the viewership last Dreamhack. Well deserved spot for CS:GO! edit: On December 16 2014 04:16 JustPassingBy wrote:Imo, one of the reasons why CS:GO has such incredible numbers is because the Koreans haven't gotten enough time to perfect it yet. Nah european CS has been pretty good for years Give them more time. With the resurgence of the Counterstrike scene, more people might be encouraged to play in it. If you expect Koreans to dominate CS scene anytime in the future, you are up for a bigger dissapointment than Kespa fans with their elephants on sc2. At least they can dominate the Korean CS game crossfire :> Crossfire the elephant in the room?
It's settled.
Now we can only pray so they don't switch to CSGO or the stampede will get real.
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pretty excited about this. CS:GO's definitely earned their place considering how much the scene is growing.
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is the source even reliable?
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Can't say it wasn't expected after seeing how well CS:GO did at DH Winter. Sad to see Starcraft 2 be relegated I guess but what can you do, at least they're not practically shoving us away. *cough cough MLG*
obligatory "if only robert ohlen were here" comment
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this is what happens when robert's dad's in charge.
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On December 15 2014 22:57 [F_]aths wrote:
Well, when LotV brings SC2 back to new heights,
haha
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Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW).
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I am actually surprised CS wasn't already its maingame. Sc2 viewer numbers have been really bad over the last 6-8 months (aside from WCS).
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW).
I don't think CS was more popular than BW at their respective peaks?
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On December 16 2014 06:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW). I don't think CS was more popular than BW at their respective peaks?
nothing topped bw 2006-2009 days so far I know.
also cs:go was pretty much dead a few years so this what they did with that game was amazing.
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sc2 does not have as much 'micro excitement' as BW did. Due to some newbification and some worse unit controls.
Then throw in SH and watching/playing sc2 can get frustrating. Sadly hotv will still have SH... I think sc2 will keep going downhill.
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On December 16 2014 06:22 Hotshot wrote:
sc2 does not have as much 'micro excitement' as BW did. Due to some newbification and some worse unit controls.
Then throw in SH and watching/playing sc2 can get frustrating. Sadly hotv will still have SH... I think sc2 will keep going downhill.
Completely different swarm hosts though
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Oh well. Shame I don't enjoy watching FPS.
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On December 16 2014 06:26 Jono7272 wrote:
Oh well. Shame I don't enjoy watching FPS.
Yeah, I personally have a hard time sitting through an entire match of CS:GO.
Then again, I have a hard time sitting through an entire SC2 Bo5+ series nowadays.
At the very least, I still enjoy playing CS:GO. SC2, not so much anymore.
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On December 15 2014 22:51 Initialized wrote:
I didn't even know that Sc2 was the main game, owell, no harm done I suppose.
Same here
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im not surprised, not at all.
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I'll never understand watching a team FPS
But a lot of people do so it's a smart buisiness decision. Let's hope they don't go full MLG on us though
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My main game is Sc2 since WoL release but having played Cs:GO recently the last 4-5 months, I am can understand the move from DH: It is an awesome game! And I didn't even know SC2 was the "main game". So I guess no harm, no foul. It all depends on what changes they want to make? Any info on that?
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I don't really see this being a big deal, unfortunately Counter Strike has always had a bigger following than StarCraft I feel. As long as SC will still be shown and have a prize pool comparable, I don't see this as an issue.
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Ohlen gets booted and CS:GO becomes main game. Hmm.
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CS GO is fun as hell to play. But I just don't understand it as a spectator sport.... I mean you can only see so much of what's going on at once...
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On December 16 2014 03:31 JokerAi wrote:
casual games have more viewer and the money starts destroying Esports.
You mean good games?
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On December 16 2014 07:32 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:31 JokerAi wrote:
casual games have more viewer and the money starts destroying Esports. You mean good games?
No he means casual. Lol.
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On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW).
No im quite sure bw was bigger than 1.6 as an e-sport. I dont have any numbers but i dont think any esport is close to what bw was at its peak.
I cant help but notice that valve just made the same game better in csgo if compared to 1.6 (mostly because of the match makng system) while sc2 is just a completely different game from bw. In this case it turned out to be better to stick with what worked i think.
Cs to me feels like a real esport and i just love to follow the same pros who were good when i watched 1.6 ten years ago. I hope it can get really big now that the scene is united again.
The thing i miss the most in cs is a good forum though... Liquidcs? Pls
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On December 16 2014 07:33 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 07:32 NukeD wrote:On December 16 2014 03:31 JokerAi wrote:
casual games have more viewer and the money starts destroying Esports. You mean good games? No he means casual. Lol.
I don't see how CS is casual. It takes a lot of skill to master some weapons and be good at sensing enemy, etc. I still only play StarCraft but we shouldn't underestimate a good game like CS. Either way, Blizzard has been too careless of SC the past few years, and I guess we/they deserve it.
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CSGO the true esport? Lol
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On December 16 2014 07:47 MooMooMugi wrote:
CSGO the true esport? Lol
It's an attitude like that which doesn't help StarCraft. Community is like "League of Legends? Lol. Dota? Lol. Counter-Strike? Lol.". Well, the thing is StarCraft forgot to compete. It can't only rely on its glorious days of BW.
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On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW).
1.6 was bigger globally than BW(more fans outside of Korea). But as far as actual numbers go, CS was no where close to BW just based on the size of organizations behind it and the finals crowds were much larger. Although to compare the two is like having a fight between a 300lb man and a 150lb man. BW was on TV. 1.6 was Demos and videos.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
Starcraft is the best, RTS is for the brilliant minds, the strategists and the people who can actually think
CS is like maybe you can be fast, but you can't think, you're just kind of dumb.
It is popular to the masses but I am happy supporting the less popular game because it is the more demanding and I love to watch it
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On December 16 2014 07:58 KelsierSC wrote:
Starcraft is the best, RTS is for the brilliant minds, the strategists and the people who can actually think
CS is like maybe you can be fast, but you can't think, you're just kind of dumb.
It is popular to the masses but I am happy supporting the less popular game because it is the more demanding and I love to watch it
While I think that Starcraft is maybe the most rounded and the most demanding game out there, to say that CS players are dumb is pretty ignorant
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about time, even if CS;GO at his flaws (in game and the players ) it feels like the fucking future, it is EVOLVING.
I don't think sc2 (even if i'm a fan of it and its player ) should keep the big stage anymore.
What's the point on having the CS;GO crowd PACKED in a small place when they could fit in the big stage even for the fucking lowest stage of the tourney.
I don't see the point on having such a big venue if we keep the space to ourself.
This is not THE SC2 community vs THE CS community : We are esport and we need to not be total asses and give what's deserved to each other.
If sc2 ever goes past CS and the crowd gets bigger then maybe we'll get it again but i doubt it.
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If you think you don't need to be a smart player to play well Counter strike, you certainly have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as their main game.
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On December 16 2014 08:12 Godwrath wrote:
If you think you don't need to be a smart player to play well Counter strike, you certainly have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as their main game.
If you don't have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as Dreamhacks main game you are probably on drugs.
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WHERE IS ROBERT OHLEN?? 
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On December 16 2014 08:15 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 08:12 Godwrath wrote:
If you think you don't need to be a smart player to play well Counter strike, you certainly have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as their main game. If you don't have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as Dreamhacks main game you are probably on drugs.
Huh, one would think drug abuse would be a bigger concern than CS replacing Sc2 as the main game of DH.
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On December 16 2014 08:19 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 08:15 blackone wrote:On December 16 2014 08:12 Godwrath wrote:
If you think you don't need to be a smart player to play well Counter strike, you certainly have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as their main game. If you don't have bigger issues than CS replacing SC2 as Dreamhacks main game you are probably on drugs. Huh, one would think drug abuse would be a bigger concern than CS replacing Sc2 as the main game of DH.
Depends on your priorities in life. Some people care more about the scene than themselves
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On December 16 2014 08:17 Rikudou wrote:WHERE IS ROBERT OHLEN??
He is no longer with Dreamhack. There were like, two threads about it. The board removed him as CEO.
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On December 16 2014 07:56 Jaded. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW). 1.6 was bigger globally than BW(more fans outside of Korea). But as far as actual numbers go, CS was no where close to BW just based on the size of organizations behind it and the finals crowds were much larger. Although to compare the two is like having a fight between a 300lb man and a 150lb man. BW was on TV. 1.6 was Demos and videos.
Yeah , it was on TV... In one country. It had big crowds... In one country. I'm not talking about eSports and organisations behind it. I'm talking about the most basic casual level. Worldwide CS 1.6 was always bigger - more people were playing it. Hell, even now(when CS:GO is so popular) if I want to play 1.6 I can do it with no effort on the numerous private servers that still exist and are well populated.
I'm not hating on BW and it's legacy. I like CS and I love BW, but that is how it was.
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On December 16 2014 07:58 KelsierSC wrote:
Starcraft is the best, RTS is for the brilliant minds, the strategists and the people who can actually think
CS is like maybe you can be fast, but you can't think, you're just kind of dumb.
It is popular to the masses but I am happy supporting the less popular game because it is the more demanding and I love to watch it
meh.
as tempting as that might be to get behind, it couldn't be further from the truth. on the highest level of CS:GO there are A LOT of mindgames going on. I personally think that the US teams are superior to EU ones in terms of aiming (when they are on top of their game), they got people who are absurdly good at that.
but due to several circumstances they can't form teams to beat EU ones consistently - for now - and that also has got a lot to do with map decisions and how they approach the game.
there is a lot to be said for intelligent teamwork and strategy in CS, not just the raw skill.
cut the teamwork part, and oh boy, that sounds a lot like what's important in SC
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Obviously this hurts our pride and all, but to be honest the CS community deserves it. They have the bigger crowds and that is really what should determine who is "the main stage". We will have to see what the Starcraft production is like going forward... hopefully they can still give us the best show in esports.
Though if I can take a moment to be a little snarky:
On December 16 2014 08:10 shid0x wrote:
about time, even if CS;GO at his flaws (in game and the players ) it feels like the fucking future, it is EVOLVING.
I dunno man, I think that dust map has been around for a little bit...
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Only natural, looking at the numbers,
I always loved playing fps games (played lots of quake 1/quakeworld, original team fortress, quake 2, unreal tournament and duke nukem), but I never enjoyed watching these games.
Too bad for me, if only fps and mobas remain in the future
Hope at least fighting games can get more structure to be more regular with capcom announcing 500k prize pool for 2015
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This is what happends when you fire Robert Ohlen !
Goodjob Dreamhack.....
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On December 16 2014 08:31 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 07:58 KelsierSC wrote:
Starcraft is the best, RTS is for the brilliant minds, the strategists and the people who can actually think
CS is like maybe you can be fast, but you can't think, you're just kind of dumb.
It is popular to the masses but I am happy supporting the less popular game because it is the more demanding and I love to watch it meh. as tempting as that might be to get behind, it couldn't be further from the truth. on the highest level of CS:GO there are A LOT of mindgames going on. I personally think that the US teams are superior to EU ones in terms of aiming (when they are on top of their game), they got people who are absurdly good at that. but due to several circumstances they can't form teams to beat EU ones consistently - for now - and that also has got a lot to do with map decisions and how they approach the game. there is a lot to be said for intelligent teamwork and strategy in CS, not just the raw skill. cut the teamwork part, and oh boy, that sounds a lot like what's important in SC
I agree that CS players aren't "kinda dumb", there is def complexity to the game. That said, when I started to write this response, I was originally going to defend CS in a similar fashion to how I might defend dota, but in that process I came to the conclusion that although the team dynamic and meta surrounding CS is complex and the tolerance for error is low (at the task level maybe similar to SC and definitely lower than dota), the number of tasks that an individual is responsible for concurrently isn't anywhere close, because of this I would argue that SC2 is the more difficult/complex game hands down. However, I don't think that complexity has any positive relationship to the entertainment value or accessibility of the game; if anything it probably has a negative impact on both.
Team based play certainly allows for blaming and finger pointing during moments of failure which can reduce stress thus increasing accessibility, but it's also an audience to "show-off" individual skill. There's not a lot of self gratification in owning a noob with l33t blink microz or marine splitting when you and the other player are the only two that saw it... you just get xx ladder points and you're on to the next game to promptly get rekt.
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Meh. We have other tourneys.
At least there's finally something to challenge the MOBA dominance. I'd take CS:GO over any MOBA any day, way higher skill cap, higher complexity and far more spectator friendly.
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On twitch, sc2 gets usually around 7k viewers. other games are like 50k +
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This is what happens when a developer backs their game fully.
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lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft?
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United States97276 Posts
On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft?
probably something like real geniuses play starcraft because other RTS are watered down or something
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It's not the end of the world, but I mean, I'm sure most of us would want SC2 over CS as the main game at DH since this is Team Liquid! I just hope that SC2 will always have a place in DH events.
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
Interested to see what this actually looks like when the circuit restarts.
Not sure quite why people get so annoyed, if CS fans are champing at the bit and have the big numbers then all power to that scene.
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It kind of sucks, but it's not surprising. One is growing and one is not. I wish it didn't have to be like this, but at the end of the day, dreamhack needs to make the responsible decision, and after the CS:GO finals this year it wouldn't do the game and viewers justice to have it sitting on a smallish stage.
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
On December 16 2014 10:35 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft? probably something like real geniuses play starcraft because other RTS are watered down or something
Things could be worse. What if sc1 was released as the sequel to sc2 instead of how it is?
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Can't say I'm shocked, sc2 has been in decline for quite awhile.
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On December 15 2014 22:59 mki wrote:
It's a numbers game. When StarCraft II came out and became the largest game (numbers wise) DH picked it up as their main game. Now CS is doing the same thing.
Yes, but what drives numbers is the quality of the game, people like good games better than bad games...
Try to read between the lines.
Blizzard has a lot of work to do, does anyone really think HOTS is more exciting to watch than WOL with Photon Overcharge, Widow mines instead of Siege Tanks and Swarm Hosts?
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On December 16 2014 08:30 Pr0wler wrote:
Yeah , it was on TV... In one country. It had big crowds... In one country.
You don't get a "scene" just by having lots of players. There are guitar players in every city on Earth but the vast majority of them don't have a "scene". You get a "scene" when people come together beyond the bare fact that they do the same thing, find more common ground, encourage each other, grow together, and succeed in a way that inspires and draws in others. Brood War succeeded because of grassroots support and organization.
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China6329 Posts
On December 16 2014 11:27 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 10:35 Shellshock wrote:On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft? probably something like real geniuses play starcraft because other RTS are watered down or something Things could be worse. What if sc1 was released as the sequel to sc2 instead of how it is?
Only with the systems and units, not the controls imo
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On December 16 2014 08:30 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 07:56 Jaded. wrote:On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW). 1.6 was bigger globally than BW(more fans outside of Korea). But as far as actual numbers go, CS was no where close to BW just based on the size of organizations behind it and the finals crowds were much larger. Although to compare the two is like having a fight between a 300lb man and a 150lb man. BW was on TV. 1.6 was Demos and videos. Yeah , it was on TV... In one country. It had big crowds... In one country. I'm not talking about eSports and organisations behind it. I'm talking about the most basic casual level. Worldwide CS 1.6 was always bigger - more people were playing it. Hell, even now(when CS:GO is so popular) if I want to play 1.6 I can do it with no effort on the numerous private servers that still exist and are well populated. I'm not hating on BW and it's legacy. I like CS and I love BW, but that is how it was.
And that one country had better viewership for BW than CS 1.6 did across the entire world. I'm not saying CS 1.6 is bad either. Quake CS1.6 and BW were the pinnacle of skill based e-sports, everything here from now on will be a disappointment compared to them(though CS:GO is pretty good). But regardless the BW scene was more developed and had a wider audience than 1.6 did, one country or not. Now if 1.6 had large corporations sponsoring teams and had mass viewership on TV or on the videos (it didn't really compare) then I'd concede 1.6 was larger. But it wasn't. If you're saying that CS was more popular in say EU and the US, then yes I'd say that's true. But it wasn't larger than BW.
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Switched from nearly 9 years of BW/SC2 to CSGO last year and have not looked back. Very happy for Dreamhack's decision!
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So does SC2 not get the open circuit anymore? Will DH Valencia, Stockholm, Moscow, Bucharest, France, etc be CS:GO tourneys now? Because that would really suck.
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On December 16 2014 11:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:59 mki wrote:
It's a numbers game. When StarCraft II came out and became the largest game (numbers wise) DH picked it up as their main game. Now CS is doing the same thing. Yes, but what drives numbers is the quality of the game, people like good games better than bad games... Try to read between the lines. Blizzard has a lot of work to do, does anyone really think HOTS is more exciting to watch than WOL with Photon Overcharge, Widow mines instead of Siege Tanks and Swarm Hosts?
Are you implying that DH switched the mainstage from CS:GO to SC2 because the former is a "good game" while the latter is a "bad game"?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think SC2 is near perfect, but it is hardly a "bad game".
I agree Blizzard has a lot of work, but I do think HOTS is more exciting to watch than WOL most of the time. I don't like PO and SH also, but there are other facets I do like.
In TvZ, I think its very exciting to see early game reaper vs. lings/queens. Will the reaper scout the zerg? Will it get a drone or some lings? Can he keep it alive to join up with 2 more reapers and a boat load of hellions? Will this group of hellions/reapers manage to recede the creep? For the zerg, can he keep his drones alive? Will he morph that drone in time?
I can go on about the different interactions between some units, but its not the time.
HOTS may have its issues, but I hardly think its a bad game and I think DH feels the same. If DH thought SC2 was bad, I doubt they would even keep it in the circuit.
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On December 16 2014 12:39 klipik12 wrote:
So does SC2 not get the open circuit anymore? Will DH Valencia, Stockholm, Moscow, Bucharest, France, etc be CS:GO tourneys now? Because that would really suck.
Its unclear what this means yet, but I don't think DH will drop SC2 completely. They might reduce the number of tourneys, but definitely not drop it.
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make sense actually,dreamhack CS:GO are like what Blizzcon is to SC2
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On December 16 2014 11:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:59 mki wrote:
It's a numbers game. When StarCraft II came out and became the largest game (numbers wise) DH picked it up as their main game. Now CS is doing the same thing. Yes, but what drives numbers is the quality of the game, people like good games better than bad games... Try to read between the lines. Blizzard has a lot of work to do, does anyone really think HOTS is more exciting to watch than WOL with Photon Overcharge, Widow mines instead of Siege Tanks and Swarm Hosts?
Swarm Hosts are a hots addition, I don't know what you exactly you want to say.
Are you implying that broodlord/winfestor was more exciting than this? Hots is far from perfect but man, just take this year's Blizzcon. Has never been more exciting if you ask me.
Imho, it's only natural that SC2 is the unpopular eSports. It's a 1v1 RTS(already unpopular), it's hard, it's complicated. A dead unit does not equal a win, but a kill in LoL and CS:GO is easy to comprehend and also always a good sign towards winning. It's just easier. And easier usually wins in terms of publicity.
As long as DH does not drop SC2 completely, it's fine. I'm upset that things are the way they are, but there's little we can change. Ball is in Blizzard's court for many things, we can only do what we always do.
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On December 16 2014 11:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 22:59 mki wrote:
It's a numbers game. When StarCraft II came out and became the largest game (numbers wise) DH picked it up as their main game. Now CS is doing the same thing. Yes, but what drives numbers is the quality of the game, people like good games better than bad games... Try to read between the lines. Blizzard has a lot of work to do, does anyone really think HOTS is more exciting to watch than WOL with Photon Overcharge, Widow mines instead of Siege Tanks and Swarm Hosts?
If you say that then you kinda do not know a lot about marketing. There are a lot of factors that drive the number of viewers up and quality is only part of them, even maybe a small part.
Quality of the games is very abstract thing to judge from consumer point of view and can be judged very differently for each individual. You can have the best quality game in the world but if the consumers/watchers/players cannot distinguish or see it then it is pointless. I would argue that the main reasons why CS:GO and other team games like DotA or LoL or soccer have a lot of viewers because it better tap into unconscious psychological needs to be part of the successful team to increase the self-esteem needs. Although I would need to conduct a consumer research to be sure about this, I can certainly say that this should be the main reason why team sports/games are more successful than individual ones. The rational that the game is better is more like afterthought to justify their choice of favorite e-sport.
And if you go by the logic that quality of the game matter the most, then "better" games like BW should have the highest number of viewers and be on the stage since it has the highest quality of players and skills need to compete but it is not. DOTA2 should also have higher number than LoL but it is also not true. Quality and skill requires to play the game does not really matter that much as people want to believe.
Each game has it own appeal to different people and that is the beauty of marketing for me. No single product is for everyone and not everyone will like that best product (because it is not the best product in their eyes). Starcraft and RTS is preferred by a segment of gamer who like to watch individual competition and pushing oneself to limit. The segment is smaller than people who like team sport but that is fine to be honest. This does not mean Blizzard does not have to improve but to think that the viewers for RTS game should be higher than team games is an incorrect assumption in the first place for me.
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On December 16 2014 14:14 jojos11 wrote:
make sense actually,dreamhack CS:GO are like what Blizzcon is to SC2
are you saying that dreamhack developed csgo?
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On December 16 2014 06:23 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 06:22 Hotshot wrote:
sc2 does not have as much 'micro excitement' as BW did. Due to some newbification and some worse unit controls.
Then throw in SH and watching/playing sc2 can get frustrating. Sadly hotv will still have SH... I think sc2 will keep going downhill. Completely different swarm hosts though
Doesn't matter, 95% of the time fighting free is not fun no matter what the game... Besides, these new SH can fly... I think this change will make SH games a lot shorter, at the sacrifice of making them a lot more frustrating.
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On December 16 2014 12:18 Jaded. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 08:30 Pr0wler wrote:On December 16 2014 07:56 Jaded. wrote:On December 16 2014 05:53 Pr0wler wrote:
Great, now maybe Valve will fix their CS maps.
SC2 will still be there, so who cares. I'm actually surprised that SC2 was their "main game" and not Dota or something like that.
And for the people that are saying that CS scene is "growing"... LOL. CS was always more popular than SC(2 and BW). 1.6 was bigger globally than BW(more fans outside of Korea). But as far as actual numbers go, CS was no where close to BW just based on the size of organizations behind it and the finals crowds were much larger. Although to compare the two is like having a fight between a 300lb man and a 150lb man. BW was on TV. 1.6 was Demos and videos. Yeah , it was on TV... In one country. It had big crowds... In one country. I'm not talking about eSports and organisations behind it. I'm talking about the most basic casual level. Worldwide CS 1.6 was always bigger - more people were playing it. Hell, even now(when CS:GO is so popular) if I want to play 1.6 I can do it with no effort on the numerous private servers that still exist and are well populated. I'm not hating on BW and it's legacy. I like CS and I love BW, but that is how it was. And that one country had better viewership for BW than CS 1.6 did across the entire world. I'm not saying CS 1.6 is bad either. Quake CS1.6 and BW were the pinnacle of skill based e-sports, everything here from now on will be a disappointment compared to them(though CS:GO is pretty good). But regardless the BW scene was more developed and had a wider audience than 1.6 did, one country or not. Now if 1.6 had large corporations sponsoring teams and had mass viewership on TV or on the videos (it didn't really compare) then I'd concede 1.6 was larger. But it wasn't. If you're saying that CS was more popular in say EU and the US, then yes I'd say that's true. But it wasn't larger than BW.
Being popular in one location won't be attractive for an international tournament organizer such as dreamhack anyway which is the dominate form of esports events.
Not that bw isn't impressive of cause
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Well, to CS Dreamhack is one ot their main events-the very best teams in the world compete there. While SC2 has WCS, LoL has LCS (Dont know much about DOTA but imagine The International is the main focus), and thus the level of compettion is high but not even close to very top (especially true for LoL). It make sense that DH is focusing on CS:GO. Its good both for dreamhack and the CS scene.
With the way WCS, LCS, TI are structured theres is no way that DH will be ever the main tournament in those respective games. There is no such obstacle in CS scene so its a good way of moving forward for DH.
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On December 16 2014 03:24 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 03:19 fruity. wrote:On December 15 2014 23:28 johnbongham wrote:
Also, that prize money from valve is funded by CSGO players when they buy 'keys' to unlock weapon crates that they earn in-game. Then during the actual tournaments, players can buy 'stickers' of their favorite team logos that they can put on their weapons in-game and the sticker money goes directly to the teams as extra income. It is really exciting how valve has managed to monetize CSGO in a way that benefits the competitive scene and makes it sustainable without anyone losing their investment into the game. Didnt know this, valve in my eyes seems to do a lot right. Inevitable. Shooting people in the face with guns will (sadly) Have more appeal than a high learning curve RTS. After all FPS is a game genre anyone can pick up instantly and understand. Not so with StarCraft. Like someone else mentioned. They'd already had SC2 on a side stage at the finals. However, DreamHack, you could learn much from companies like XMG, who care enough to explain stuff. It doesn't harm to do so. Good public relations isn't a bad thing you know. Understandable. Though I don't know how accurate this chart is. I think it ispretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account the swedish television viewers CSGO had.
Also doesnt count Finnish tv viewers of CSGO
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On December 16 2014 04:07 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Meh, CS:GO only got so many viewers because of the scandal this last DH, Yeah, it had a lot of viewers before the scandal, but i bet after it the viewers increased significantly.
Thats' not even true, ESL One Cologne had only slightly less viewers and that had no kind of scandal. The game has grown anyway since then so you can attribute the increased viewers to that. Do your research before saying something clearly false, please.
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The biggest possible problem i might find with this is the cheating scandal in the CS scene. I atleast personally believe that some people in the CS:GO-proscene do hack (Fnatic) and i hope it doesnt effect the public view of eSports.
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I watched both so I am pretty happy. The SC2 crowd was pretty sad compared to the CS:GO crowd at times though.
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You can't be the top dog all the time
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I'm really surprised CS:GO took off in popularity like it did. I don't believe it was on launch, but rather later in its lifespan. Anyone more familiar with the scene know why it sky rocketed in popularity so fast out of nowhere?
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
How strong is Europe globally in CS? I assume perhaps the strongest scene but I'm ignorant in that respect.
From that point of view it makes sense to adopt a game where players in the same continent are the best, rather than the overheads of tons of Koreans flying out to legitimise your tournament right?
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EU > all in CS:GO.
the way it's supposed to be, amiright 'Murica?
:p
I don't think it was all of a sudden. valve uses a hybrid f2p/low price business model, and other incentives. such as betting on teams and in turn increase the stakes with unlockable/marketable weapon skins even more.
they use a game that - generally - works and is well established because of its history and built a very smart business model around it.
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On December 16 2014 22:57 Wombat_NI wrote:
How strong is Europe globally in CS? I assume perhaps the strongest scene but I'm ignorant in that respect.
From that point of view it makes sense to adopt a game where players in the same continent are the best, rather than the overheads of tons of Koreans flying out to legitimise your tournament right?
Well, everyone I know plays CS, no one plays SC2. I've tried getting a few people to play SC2, but they gave up after a few matches stating that the game was too hard. CS is huge in Finland.
I think the attitude in Finnish schools is that SC2 (Or any kind of RTS/RPG) is for nerds and real men play CS or any type of FPS. At least when I used to be in school, now I am just too damn old.
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I quit SC for CS beta and SC2 for CS:GO so this is all fine with me. One thing I do think the CS:GO community lack is the manners of the SC community. If the case would've been the other way around (and this would've been hltv) the rage would've been unending. Let's just hope SC2 keeps producing good games and LotV makes it grow again!
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A shame, but unsurprising given what I saw at the Dreamhack Winter.
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On December 16 2014 22:50 krjay wrote:
I'm really surprised CS:GO took off in popularity like it did. I don't believe it was on launch, but rather later in its lifespan. Anyone more familiar with the scene know why it sky rocketed in popularity so fast out of nowhere?
It's cheap (less than $15), and offers challenging and social gameplay that never really gets boring, despite the fact that the maps haven't changed in 15 years.
Oh, and it also has childish unlocks and gun skins.
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On December 16 2014 22:50 krjay wrote:
I'm really surprised CS:GO took off in popularity like it did. I don't believe it was on launch, but rather later in its lifespan. Anyone more familiar with the scene know why it sky rocketed in popularity so fast out of nowhere?
Valve worked on getting it better, the pros didn't liked it at first but most have switched now, and valve offer it on sales very often.
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I was used to watch everytime in Dreamhack for the Sunday for big ScII final matches. Damn... I don't like the reality, but people always prefer the easier and simple games. No offence please, ScII is much simple comparing to the original and Broodwar and still it's difficult to gather such a big audience in order to understand and entertain this game. SC is the best E-sport!
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I'm surprised this wasn't already the case. The game is clearly more popular than SC2 right now.
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On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft?
So you weren't around when SC2 replaced BW, right ? Basically the same, except our RTS is for smarter and more talented people than your volatile RTS.
User was warned for this post
Edit - As i am sure my crap english didn't manage to explain. I am not bashing SC2, i am just stating that people will flame the game that replaces theirs no matter what.
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 17 2014 02:13 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft? So you weren't around when SC2 replaced BW, right ? Basically the same, except our RTS is for smarter and more talented people than your volatile RTS.
Can we not have this discussion? >.>
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I watched some CS:GO. No death balls, the players are spreading out on the map, no destructible rocks, the economy is aweful because it's not caped on 3 bases. No xel naga tower neither eventhough these Fnatic guys would greatly appreciate it. The only good thing is that their map pool is as stale as ours eventhough figuring a map out on Sc2 seems way easier than on CS:GO.
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On December 17 2014 02:36 algue wrote:
I watched some CS:GO. No death balls, the players are spreading out on the map, no destructible rocks, the economy is aweful because it's not caped on 3 bases. No xel naga tower neither eventhough these Fnatic guys would greatly appreciate it. The only good thing is that their map pool is as stale as ours eventhough figuring a map out on Sc2 seems way easier than on CS:GO.
Literal LOL. I just imagined a xelnaga tower in cs and almost fell out of my chair. Good one. SC2 would be so much better without towers now that I think about it.
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On December 17 2014 02:47 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 02:36 algue wrote:
I watched some CS:GO. No death balls, the players are spreading out on the map, no destructible rocks, the economy is aweful because it's not caped on 3 bases. No xel naga tower neither eventhough these Fnatic guys would greatly appreciate it. The only good thing is that their map pool is as stale as ours eventhough figuring a map out on Sc2 seems way easier than on CS:GO. Literal LOL. I just imagined a xelnaga tower in cs and almost fell out of my chair. Good one. SC2 would be so much better without towers now that I think about it.
Watchtowers are fine, especially on gigantic huge maps. I never understood why people had such a problem with them.
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XNT's can be great or awful depending on how they're used.
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On December 17 2014 02:17 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 02:13 Godwrath wrote:On December 16 2014 10:10 brickrd wrote:
lol, the inevitable "other games are only more popular because their fans aren't geniuses like RTS players" horseshit is in full swing, i see
wonder what the excuse would be if another RTS ever became bigger than starcraft? So you weren't around when SC2 replaced BW, right ? Basically the same, except our RTS is for smarter and more talented people than your volatile RTS. Can we not have this discussion? >.>
What discussion ? People will always be demeaning to other's people hobbies when they feel displaced, that's the point i am trying to convey, not that SC2 is worse/better/whatever than BW. Or do you mean something else ?
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I remember SC2, there were a lot of awesome people involved in the scene. Unfortunately the game wasn't particularly well designed and the developers didn't do enough to help it prosper. Also the lack of international competition at the highest level probably turned a lot of casual western viewers off.
CS:GO wasn't great in the early days but the developers did enough to help it and now Counter Strike is back to being one of the premier esports in the west and the world. Makes sense for organisations to start picking CS:GO over SC2, especially for Dreamhack.
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On December 16 2014 14:07 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 12:39 klipik12 wrote:
So does SC2 not get the open circuit anymore? Will DH Valencia, Stockholm, Moscow, Bucharest, France, etc be CS:GO tourneys now? Because that would really suck. Its unclear what this means yet, but I don't think DH will drop SC2 completely. They might reduce the number of tourneys, but definitely not drop it.
Maybe they change it, so SC2 gets ESL-One-like tourneys now.
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Nathanias cryptic clues what are DH going to do with SC2?
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Unfortunately that's business. Starcraft won't die though. Don't worry people.
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I want all E-Sports to co-exist and push each other. Valve upped CS:Source to a mass compatible enjoyable game.
Ladder, Ranks, AntiCheat, Bets, Item Drops, InGame spectator, microtransaction basicly they took the best from LoL and Sc2 and put it in source engine.
I could live with sc2, Dota2/Hots/LoL,CS 1.6 - 2 as DH games.
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Past two months I found myself watching more cs:go esport streams than sc2 esport streams. I didn't watch DH winter sc2 at all, enjoyed DH winter cs:go instead. Maybe it's cause I have a history with the original vanilla cs, maybe it's cause sc2 got boring.
I would even be fine with it now if they kept sc2 esports mainly just in Korea (gsl & proleague) as long as the match quality & English coverage/commentary there are amazing.
Valve is just smarter about the design compared to sc2. CS:Go costs only 2.5 euro at times, but all the sticker/skin micro-transactions pump money into that esports scene. Looking at my gmail (steam wallet refill) it seems I spend 85 euro on random cs:go crap in 2014.
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im surprised it took this long to happen
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JHufUle.png)
