EPTKorea 2015: Battle for the Empty Throne - Page 8
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cskalias.pbe
United States293 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 12 2014 21:06 Zealously wrote: Result comparison: + Show Spoiler + Championships GSL (includes World Championship, Blizzard Cup): Mvp 4, Life 2 MLG: Mvp 1, Life 2 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 1 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Blizzcon invitational: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCS Global: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS EU: Mvp 1, Life 0 WCG: Mvp 1, Life 0 Iron Squid: Mvp 0, Life 1 Totals: Mvp 9, Life 8 Top 4 GSL Code A: Mvp 1, Life 0 GSL Code S: Mvp 3, Life 1 Blizzard Cup: Mvp 1, Life 0 IEM: Mvp 1, Life 1 Dreamhack: Mvp 0, Life 2 ASUS ROG: Mvp 0, Life 1 WCS Season Finals: Mvp 1, Life 0 Totals: Mvp 7, Life 5 Looking at results alone, the difference is fairly small. Depending on whether or not we rank WCS Global as equal to a GSL, I could reasonably see Life being Mvp's equal or even superior with one more championship. But obviously, the tournament placings alone aren't what define Mvp which is where I think this discussion comes from in the first place. People see him as a superior being for how he won rather than just that he did. This is how I view Mvp to every other Champion. If we were one day attacked by a future alien hoard of superior technology and I had to choose an RTS player to lead us, I'd agree at their 100% state, players like Taeja, Life, Zest at their peak are the guys you'd want. But if we were attacked by a future alien hoard of superior technology, robots came from the future to enslave us, zombies rose up to eat us, our economy was in shambles, our production on fire and the champion we have has his spine and wrists broken, I choose Mvp over every other player every time. No other Champion has done so much with so little against such odds like broken man Mvp. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3503 Posts
MVP was different in that he was the complete package, he could play any style, in any manner, the entire arsenal of Terran. That's why he can be so succesful, even when his level of play did not match that of his opponent. | ||
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checkupriv
204 Posts
On December 13 2014 01:25 cskalias.pbe wrote: great article. i'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but it seemed like WHY mvp was considered the best was kind of passed over. his finals v squirtle and that whole tournament in general was an education in winning. I agree. I miss Mvp. | ||
nimdil
Poland3764 Posts
Also: 2014: 3 GSLs, 1 Global Championship, 1 KeSPA Cup, 1 Hot6ix, 1 WCG (7 total) <- you missed E in WECG. Also if Hangzhou is treated as "Korean LAN" than you might as well include Taiwanese and other Chinese LANs (IEM Shenzhen for example or the one IdrA won in 2011). Finally in 2013 WCS Season Finals where in Korea, Europe and NA - only one was Korean. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14000 Posts
On December 12 2014 20:31 REyeM wrote: Didn't see any of those players winning anything in Korea after the switch. All of them even San won tournaments after the switch | ||
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Neemi
Netherlands656 Posts
On December 13 2014 01:23 Starecat wrote: They should be used to these strats because they used a ton on GSL finals : ] Btw is funny how "it is the game fault" when they lose and "hhaha expected" when they win. Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him. Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles) Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62% Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top! Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself. | ||
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Kramer
Romania73 Posts
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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rotta
5624 Posts
On December 13 2014 02:23 Cricketer12 wrote: All of them even San won tournaments after the switch But not in Korea... | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament? Do you see how this goes both ways? On December 13 2014 02:30 Neemi wrote: + Show Spoiler + Now that the game has been out for a while, and Aligulac provides us with an amazing way to keep track of winrates, I decided to look up some winrates of some of our biggest champions. I wanted to include Stork as well for BW, but couldn't find him. Flash 2009-2011: ~75% Boxer 2001: ~74% Savior 2006: ~72% Jaedong 2008-2010: ~70% Nada 2002-2003: ~67% Iloveoov 2004: ~64% Bisu 2007-2008: ~62% (when he won all his titles, weirdly he won more when he didn't win titles) Mvp 2011: ~71% Taeja 2012-2014: ~66% MC 2011: ~66% Zest 2014: ~65% Life 2012-2014: ~64%, around 69% in his peak at the end of WoL Nestea 2010-2011: ~62% Basically, Jaedong and Flash were the only two players in the history of BW to have a ~70+% winrate for 2 years in a row, let alone 3 years in a row. That was about 6-7 years after it got really competitive. Only the very biggest champions ever managed a year over 70% in general, and the same goes for the very best champions in SC2. I would say that the SC2 champions have slightly lower winrates still, but considering this is a younger game and I took Aligulac data including online cups, they all played way more games with less preparation time. So I feel the data we have right now doesn't support that it's easier to lose as a champion of SC2, compared to BW. All-ins and blind counters may be common, but it appears the finest players will still win more often than not. Now with LotV being released soon, I'm sure we're going to see many fluctuations. It will be interesting to see who comes out on top! Finally, both the last GSL winner and runner-up were unfortunate enough to face an in-form Taeja, and he's well known to be an anomaly in that regard. That doesn't take away that the average level of GSL is higher than any other tournament in the world. From the 6 GSL players at the world championship - Life won, Zest lost to Life, Hero lost to Classic, and Classic lost to MMA, a 2x GSL champion himself. Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On December 13 2014 03:45 Zealously wrote: Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament? Do you see how this goes both ways? Shhh, Zealously, you can't use reason here. That frightens people. | ||
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vjcamarena
Spain493 Posts
Pumped for next year! | ||
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States14000 Posts
On December 13 2014 03:45 Zealously wrote: Conversely, very few "real" KeSPA players (part of the Big 5 of KeSPA teams) have won tournaments outside Korea, often falling to "foreign" Koreans or even non-Koreans. Are they really so terrible that they can't even win a foreign tournament? Do you see how this goes both ways? Important to note is that Zest, Mvp and Nestea (just as, I believe, all of the aforementioned BW players) have played far fewer (in the vicinity of 500-1000) games than Life, Taeja and MC. Maintaining a high win rate over a greater number of games is incredibly difficult. I don't know the exact number of games Flash played in his career, but I will bet you my Life's saving it wasn't 2000+ as is the case with MC. I think its also important to note what made/makes each of these players special enough to be considered the best. TaeJa showed unbelievable macro and thus became the weekend warrior, yet Life finds a way, always and can win any tournament on any day. DRG has at his highest highs, perhaps the greatest mechanics and macro of any player in SC2 history (see DRG v Inno GSL 2013). San revolutionized the game with his HT usage in PvT and his stunningly good PvZ Mvp knew how to tear you limb from limb in a long series whilst Flash and JD had perfect execution. Rain is a rock and MC had an ability to simply win and who can forget how well huk and stephano played a couple of years ago. My point is that each of the top players has something incredible about them which makes them unique, therefore can the question of a best player (and hence stichiu's point of no bongjwa) be taken seriously? Perhaps there is no such thing in SC2. Does that mean that all players are equal? Of course not, no offense but soO is def not on the same level as JimRising. Showtime isnt exactly Rain level. But at the highest level, is there a distinctive measure that can be used to determine who is the best? I have always said, at their best sOs with his ingenuity and DRG with his macro surpass every other player in existence, yet combined they have fewer tournament wins vs TaeJa. Yet TaeJa has never won a GSL....food for thought. | ||
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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rotta
5624 Posts
On December 13 2014 04:58 Dreamer.T wrote: MVP forever the king. ...of Wings, yes. | ||
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Aeceus
United Kingdom1278 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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