I want to talk about the multi hit attacks, i think they are bugged. The second zealot swing always hits, even if you kite away or you are entering a bunker, medivac or pf. I just reproduced the same thing with two thors and a medivac. first thor attack hits the other thor, ill pick it up, second attack still hits. In my opinion this is clearly a game changing bug. If you try to micro away the second zealot attack will always hit if the first one did. I noticed it a few times before when a zealot killed my scout scv with the second swing although it was far away already. I told my friend about it and he said zealot range is clearly too high :D
I want to talk about the multi hit attacks, i think they are bugged. The second zealot swing always hits, even if you kite away or you are entering a bunker, medivac or pf. I just reproduced the same thing with two thors and a medivac. first thor attack hits the other thor, ill pick it up, second attack still hits. In my opinion this is clearly a game changing bug. If you try to micro away the second zealot attack will always hit if the first one did. I noticed it a few times before when a zealot killed my scout scv with the second swing although it was far away already. I told my friend about it and he said zealot range is clearly too high :D
Good catch.
Perhaps it's "intended" meaning it's what they programmed - but I don't think that's how it should work. It just seems stupid that the Zealot has 2 "attacks" but they're really one attack with a delayed second animation.
On October 16 2014 03:29 DinoMight wrote: Perhaps it's "intended" meaning it's what they programmed - but I don't think that's how it should work. It just seems stupid that the Zealot has 2 "attacks" but they're really one attack with a delayed second animation.
it should be 2 attacks.. its how it was made. and its the best way to have things... and its never changing.
I don't know what all this "this is the way it's supposed to be" nonsense is coming from. Yes I understand that it's the way the game is currently *coded.
But that doesn't mean it's right. Clearly the in game behavior is wrong.
EDIT - I'm not saying anything regarding balance. Keep everything the way it is, but if there are 2 separate attacks then the second one should be dodgeable in this case.
Maybe that is a miniscule nerf to Protoss, but whatever it will almost never matter. They can speed up the animation slightly to compensate.
On October 16 2014 03:43 TerranosaurusWrecks wrote: i don't see how this is a big deal, i was under the impression it has always been like this
It would open some small micro possibilites in the early game (Marine vs Zealot & zergling vs zealot). It's not a big deal but this kind of small possibilities are always nice.
On October 16 2014 03:29 SatedSC2 wrote: This is wholly intended behaviour. Definitely not a bug.
Did you see the GIFs? The scv is inside the bunker and still dies?!
I can't believe that the impact of this on balance (especially re: how damage reduction and armour work) is less important to you than how an animation looks.
Because what I see should be what is happening if I play. When the screen shows me the SCV is inside the bunker, it should be there and it should be safe. And you will get the impact on balance if you try to micro away from zealots with Marines. What other multihit units are there? As I said, I reproduced this with Thors, where you should only get half the damage when picked up in the middle on an attack, but you still get the full damage.
Ah ok, you said two times the damage, I understood that as damage x2. Why do you want to do it that way and not just check if the unit is still in range and then attack the 2nd time?
On October 16 2014 03:29 SatedSC2 wrote: This is wholly intended behaviour. Definitely not a bug.
Did you see the GIFs? The scv is inside the bunker and still dies?!
I can't believe that the impact of this on balance (especially re: how damage reduction and armour work) is less important to you than how an animation looks.
Because what I see should be what is happening if I play. When the screen shows me the SCV is inside the bunker, it should be there and it should be safe. And you will get the impact on balance if you try to micro away from zealots with Marines. What other multihit units are there? As I said, I reproduced this with Thors, where you should only get half the damage when picked up in the middle on an attack, but you still get the full damage.
The only ones I can think of that do this are Zealots and Thors. All other multi shot units fire both at the same time.
And I do think it's clearly a glitch. Because clearly the unit doesn't die until the second attack animation completes, but the first hit is telling the game engine that both hits have registered instead of requiring the second hit to register as well. So basically it's an error on the coder's behalf of failing to program in a second hit trigger.
I'm generally always for cleaning up these inconsistencies, and sometimes it's bigger things that are only picked up upon by diligent testing such as this.
Anyone remember the WC3 bug with Mountain Giants? They had some pretty hefty upgrade to give them a reduction in damage taken, somehow in the game they had the ability by default
On October 16 2014 03:57 graNite wrote: Ah ok, you said two times the damage, I understood that as damage x2. Why do you want to do it that way and not just check if the unit is still in range and then attack the 2nd time?
well, that obviously influences balance. And I think quite massively, given how tiny melee range is and how zealots have to stop when attacking. Basically they get into 0.25 range, attack once and then all the bio is out of 0.25. So effectively with kiting, you'd halve zealot damage.
On October 16 2014 04:01 Pursuit_ wrote: Edit: nvm
damage or animation? Because you cancel the animation, the damage should still be done as far as I understand attacks. Unless the reaper attack has been implemented very weirdly.
On October 16 2014 04:01 Pursuit_ wrote: Edit: nvm
damage or animation? Because you cancel the animation, the damage should still be done as far as I understand attacks. Unless the reaper attack has been implemented very weirdly.
Replying to my original post, damage. You can get a reaper to only use one of it's 2 attacks by pulling it back too early. But that's not what the OP is talking about here.
On October 16 2014 03:57 graNite wrote: Ah ok, you said two times the damage, I understood that as damage x2. Why do you want to do it that way and not just check if the unit is still in range and then attack the 2nd time?
well, that obviously influences balance. And I think quite massively, given how tiny melee range is and how zealots have to stop when attacking. Basically they get into 0.25 range, attack once and then all the bio is out of 0.25. So effectively with kiting, you'd halve zealot damage.
Only if you kited perfectly. And should it be possible to dodge the attacks then? That is what the charge upgrade is for...
Easiest way to test this would be to assign a second hit trigger to the second animation on the Zealot for the 2nd/half of the damage (meaning to check if the second attack actually connected rather than assume it did).
Then load up a unit tester and check the difference when a bunch of Zealots attacks some kiting marines.
On October 16 2014 04:01 Pursuit_ wrote: Edit: nvm
damage or animation? Because you cancel the animation, the damage should still be done as far as I understand attacks. Unless the reaper attack has been implemented very weirdly.
Replying to my original post, damage. You can get a reaper to only use one of it's 2 attacks by pulling it back too early. But that's not what the OP is talking about here.
Right, we are talking about the defender, not the attacker. You can cancel zealot attacks as the protoss player, but you can not cancel them as the defender with running away or being picked up.
On October 16 2014 03:57 graNite wrote: Ah ok, you said two times the damage, I understood that as damage x2. Why do you want to do it that way and not just check if the unit is still in range and then attack the 2nd time?
well, that obviously influences balance. And I think quite massively, given how tiny melee range is and how zealots have to stop when attacking. Basically they get into 0.25 range, attack once and then all the bio is out of 0.25. So effectively with kiting, you'd halve zealot damage.
Only if you kited perfectly. And should it be possible to dodge the attacks then? That is what the charge upgrade is for...
It's really just kiting at all as far as I understand it. Like: if you are moving in the moment the zealot attacks you it's 0.25range (because the zealot won't close in any further than that before triggering its attack), it means that regardless how slow you move, and regardless how tiny the delay between the attacks, movement*delay>0 so the distance traveled is >0 so the second attack gets canceled because 0.25 requirement is not fullfilled anymore.
On October 16 2014 04:01 Pursuit_ wrote: Edit: nvm
damage or animation? Because you cancel the animation, the damage should still be done as far as I understand attacks. Unless the reaper attack has been implemented very weirdly.
Replying to my original post, damage. You can get a reaper to only use one of it's 2 attacks by pulling it back too early. But that's not what the OP is talking about here.
Right, we are talking about the defender, not the attacker. You can cancel zealot attacks as the protoss player, but you can not cancel them as the defender with running away or being picked up.
ah right, of course. That's the difference. If you order something else to your unit, you literally overwrite the previous command.
On October 16 2014 04:14 404AlphaSquad wrote: I dont get the "thats how its supposed to be talk". An scv inside a bunker dies from this attack. How is this how it is supposed to be?
Don't worry some people agree with you =)
On October 16 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote: The SCV dies while it's inside a bunker.
It's clearly a glitch.
I don't know what all this "this is the way it's supposed to be" nonsense is coming from.
On October 16 2014 04:14 404AlphaSquad wrote: I dont get the "thats how its supposed to be talk". An scv inside a bunker dies from this attack. How is this how it is supposed to be?
The same way a ball of kiting marines look like they're shooting at eachother and not their attackers. As much as its a real-time strategy game, certain aspects will always be involve turn-based occurences.
The actual purpose/function behind the double attack mechanism that applies to thors and zealots, is that if they are killed after the first attack, but before the second, then the second never completes. Also, imagine a low hp zealot fighting some lings, in the end if the zealot did both damage instantly the ling will die. But instead, the ling attacks after the zealots 1st attack part and then dies to the second, at least allowing it to do some more damage.
On October 16 2014 04:42 H0i wrote: The actual purpose/function behind the double attack mechanism that applies to thors and zealots, is that if they are killed after the first attack, but before the second, then the second never completes. Also, imagine a low hp zealot fighting some lings, in the end if the zealot did both damage instantly the ling will die. But instead, the ling attacks after the zealots 1st attack part and then dies to the second, at least allowing it to do some more damage.
Thats not how it works though.
The second attack animation has to complete for the zealot to DO the damage. If you watch the GIF the SCV only dies after the Zealot swings his second attack. But the second attack animation doesn't check to see if the unit is still in range before killing the targeted unit. That's the glitch.
So in your example if the Zealot died before the second attack it would not deal the second damage.
It's not a glitch. They want it to be possible to kill zealots mid-attack, or for units like lings to get another hit in before they die, but not to micro out of zealot attack to reduce it's damage by 50%. If that kind of micro was possible it would be really really strong on lings, although it would be interesting in zealot vs zealot.
Huh...it was always like this. Multihit attacks are there to fine tune damage/armor interactions. Like, a missile turret sends 2 simultaneous missiles that most likely will always both hit. It's also what renders zealots very effective against immortals.
Edit: I agree that it does look visually strange that the SCV dies in the bunker ;D. But what can you do... just learn that you can't rely on the second attack not hitting, because unless the player cancels the animation (which cancels the second attack), the damage will be dealt.
Why is it 2 attacks when the second one kills an SCV inside a bunker ? Plus we can add the fact that it could be balancing the game to make single attack with zealot so that they dont get so strong with upgrades.
On October 16 2014 04:55 H0i wrote: It's not a glitch. They want it to be possible to kill zealots mid-attack, or for units like lings to get another hit in before they die, but not to micro out of zealot attack to reduce it's damage by 50%. If that kind of micro was possible it would be really really strong on lings, although it would be interesting in zealot vs zealot.
I think you misunderstand:
You CAN kill a Zealot mid attack as it is currently.The second hit does not register until the Zealot's attack animation has completed.
However, you can not escape from the Zealot's second attack if the first one hits you. The attack animation kills you even if you are out of range (the way the scv is in the bunker).
On October 16 2014 05:06 Nightshake wrote: Why is it 2 attacks when the second one kills an SCV inside a bunker ? Plus we can add the fact that it could be balancing the game to make single attack with zealot so that they dont get so strong with upgrades.
Not really relevant for upgrades which add +1 damage, as the opponent's +1 armor upgrades also are taken twice into account.
This is how it should work and how it has always worked. A multi hit attack isn't designed for the purpose of somehow dodging the second (or third/fourth) hit. Once the unit has been given the 'ok' by the engine that it's allowed to perform its attack, the whole attack should go off.
-A zealot has 1 attack that hits twice. NOT 2 seperate attacks that fire at twice the rate of what the tooltip says. -If a Thor shoots at a unit with 1HP remaining and it kills it with its first shot, it does not fire it's second shot at another target, it overkills that already dead unit.
Funny I didn't see exactly the same thing than other people :
- If you pause the gif, you see the animation of the second attack starts when the scv is still outside
- when the animation is finished, the scv is inside the bunker. He's dead already but he doesn't know
To me it's totally not related to the game mechanics but to the animations that shows us these mechanics.
Namely, it seems to be linked to the "death animation" things, you kill a marine and then he explodes, like a "if hit points = 0 then do 'death_animation_procedure' like of command. that would explain why there this split second when the scv appears in the bunker.
The question of the delay that actually exists between the 2 players might also play a role. I mean lag has created some wierder stuff.
All in all I think there is no issue with mechanics, scv is hit by second attack when he's outside, not inside...
I am sorry, but this can't be just "fixed". Yes, I agree with the general idea that consistency is good, but this is quite important in the early game and "fixing" this would make zealots significantly weaker against anything that moves. It probably won't be such a big deal in the late game, where zealot harass is already pretty strong and in big fights, zealots are useful in larger numbers only in PvT and there it is mainly their HP that matters ... but the PvWhatever early game is a knife's edge at the moment and a minuscule change could have a butterfly effect. Anyone remembers the measly 1 range on the queen? And even in PvP, the increased ability of probes to sneak around zealots could have tragic consequences ...
No. But I remember the 2 range buff that everyone knew beforehand would kill reactor before expand hellion openings in TvZ, and which was especially designed to buff zerg in the early game and managed to do that succesfully. The fact that Broodlord/Infestor was imbalanced late game and that Blizzard was super slow by patching is a different story.
No. But I remember the 2 range buff that everyone knew beforehand would kill reactor before expand hellion openings in TvZ, and which was especially designed to buff zerg in the early game and managed to do that succesfully. The fact that Broodlord/Infestor was imbalanced late game and that Blizzard was super slow by patching is a different story.
You mean, the patch which nearly destroyed eSportZ? :D
On October 16 2014 04:55 H0i wrote: It's not a glitch. They want it to be possible to kill zealots mid-attack, or for units like lings to get another hit in before they die, but not to micro out of zealot attack to reduce it's damage by 50%. If that kind of micro was possible it would be really really strong on lings, although it would be interesting in zealot vs zealot.
I think you misunderstand:
You CAN kill a Zealot mid attack as it is currently.The second hit does not register until the Zealot's attack animation has completed.
However, you can not escape from the Zealot's second attack if the first one hits you. The attack animation kills you even if you are out of range (the way the scv is in the bunker).
This is because the game checks that the Unit applying the Effect is still alive after the delay between the first and second attacks, not because of the animation.
Now I am curious if units that are already dead via the system, but still are alive and waiting for the animation, can actually still do damage. (oh that part already got covered in the thread) Reminds me about DoW and how kill animations that took ages made Units invulnerable while doing them. Saw a match were an almost dead Hero went from one kill animation into the other tanking the whole army for quiet a while. So Funny.
Design decision like this can't be reworked easily, since the handling of the Zealot would be heavily affected. Make it possible to dodge the second hit and you have to buff the stats quiet heavily or change the animation even. In the end it would make micro more important against Zealots and move away from the easy to learn hard to master approach.
Blizzard has always been about gameplay that works well together. so that not every unit is controlled completely different. And they never card about how much sense it makes. So you are now warned. Anyway if a scv dies after entering a bunker their life support was clearly damaged and they just died. They even explained how stim works.
PS: if this disturbs you, never ever touch d3. Game is now fun as hell, but some design decisions they adjusted afterwards are so abnormal now. Every corner reminds me that this a game made for fun and not for immersion.
If this isn't a bug, someone needs to make sure a Yamato sticks to a blinking Stalker. And every other ranged attack, for that matter. Sorry, Zest, that's some dead Colossi you got in those Warp Prisms.
1. Zealot Damage is a persistent periodic effect that has 0.5 second wait after the first attack.
2. The second attack could have two validators: Is target in cargo (false) and Is distance between caster and target less than or equal to 0.5.
Since neither of those validators are used for the zealot attack, it is probably intended.
If Blizzard wanted to, they could easily (anyone can easily too, if you are familiar with the galaxy editor) make it so the second attack has those two checks (is target in cargo = false and is distance between caster and target less than or equal to 0.5) except in this case, neither of those are used for the second attack.
So it is mostly a balance thing and is probably intended.
If it is not intended, Blizzard can add those two validators (you create one validator with "And" that combines those two validators, then use that validator for the damage check of the second hit of the second attack) to the second attack and this wouldn't happen.
tl;dr - There's an easy way to add "Is target in cargo = false" and "Is distance between caster and target less than or equal to 0.5" to the second attack of a zealot's attack but Blizzard chose not to, so it is likely intended behavior for balancing reasons.
Reminds me of the brood war glitch where if a zealot kills a unit with his first attack, his second attack doesn't check for range and hits any unit in vision
On October 21 2014 09:34 PinoKotsBeer wrote: When a banshee/mine is targeting a unit and it goes into a bunker/geiser it doesnt hit. but with the zealot it is a feature, im confused.
also i believe if a widow mine fires at a DT or banshee as main target and you lose detection of it during the firing animation it will do zero damage to the main target but still splash anything near it
as for the main subject of the thread - i have a lot of respect for people who study the mechanics of the game and figure these things out, but in all honesty whether this is intended or not i've read the effects people say this has and i honestly don't care. the game works fine and i don't think it needs to change. if it's a coding inconsistency then oh well do better for LOTV? and if it's intended then whatever :D
On October 21 2014 09:34 PinoKotsBeer wrote: When a banshee/mine is targeting a unit and it goes into a bunker/geiser it doesnt hit. but with the zealot it is a feature, im confused.
also i believe if a widow mine fires at a DT or banshee as main target and you lose detection of it during the firing animation it will do zero damage to the main target but still splash anything near it
as for the main subject of the thread - i have a lot of respect for people who study the mechanics of the game and figure these things out, but in all honesty whether this is intended or not i've read the effects people say this has and i honestly don't care. the game works fine and i don't think it needs to change. if it's a coding inconsistency then oh well do better for LOTV? and if it's intended then whatever :D
The reason it doesnt hurt it is because its a projectile. Projectile's apply damage on hit at time of impact. If the unit is no longer visible (cloaked) then it can't take damage (unless it is being revealed). Therefore the damage does not apply, but the projectile is already on the way. It will explode then thats it.
Yes, I saw a video showing this still in action not long ago, I think it was something like a maruader getting hit by a zealot, being lifted alive into a medivac and then dying in the medivac from the second hit.
On January 18 2019 04:50 misterxy1994 wrote: They should also fix the animation bug, that shots go around a corner when you fire on high ground units. That is totally unrealistic as well.
you realize the alternative is that they pass through a solid cliff?? (unless you're being sarcastic )
EPT
)
