EPTNo disagreement.
Hence why I said "reminds me of tank play" and not "is exactly like tank play"
Remember that I also commented the lack of air play in its dynamic, which prevents it from being like true mech vs mech.
Blizzard's thoughts on Swarm Hosts - Page 36
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
No disagreement. Hence why I said "reminds me of tank play" and not "is exactly like tank play" Remember that I also commented the lack of air play in its dynamic, which prevents it from being like true mech vs mech. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:31 superpanda27 wrote: It's not all about the muta, it's about the inability to use air against the turtle swarmhost due to Vipers and the spore crawler's bonus damage to bio-air. With this proposed changed it allows broodlords more time and more damage output against spore crawlers and eventually against swarmhosts. It is so hard for another player to beat an entrenched swarmhost player hiding behind a good amount of static D and vipers. Yes, indeed... the extra anti-bio-air damage on Spore Crawlers prevents pretty much any air tech in ZvZ. So first of all it's a good thing to take it away from the Spore Crawlers. Now to not get back to the mass Muta vs Muta fights in ZvZ there are 2 options to go for. Either give the extra anti-bio-air damage to something else (in this case the Hydras) or just remove the root cause, why it is actually needed (Mutas being so strong with their high regen). Yes, this does effect other matchups too. TvZ is pretty Zerg favored since the WM nerf and with the current mappool. Mutas and their regen are a cause for this too imo. In PvZ it's not that much of a problem I think, but on the other side the Zerg doesn't rely on them so much either. Yes, the Zerg player needs to take care of his Mutas more then. All races have to take care of their harassment tools. Flying a full Medivac around carelessly also may have you lose it. Also the point is not to make them even weaker or more squishy. They keep their HP, so flying them over a WM or Marines, you'll still lose quite much the same amount. The point is that after they were damaged, you have to wait a little longer before you can use them to their full strength again, or you risk actually losing way more. | ||
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MattMannion
United States25 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:59 MattMannion wrote: they could just nerf the muta and the spore and see what happens. i don't watch a lot of high level zvz but it can see how the broodlords getting pulled into spores is a bit ridiculous. They cannot neft muta when muta is a key unit in ZvP and ZvT | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:59 MattMannion wrote: they could just nerf the muta and the spore and see what happens. i don't watch a lot of high level zvz but it can see how the broodlords getting pulled into spores is a bit ridiculous. Increase brood lord damage vs buildings, lol | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 10 2014 00:25 Killcani wrote: blizzard clueless and scared of making changes as usual nothing new to see here. well, more being cautious though the end result is just the same. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 10 2014 00:20 -Archangel- wrote: They cannot neft muta when muta is a key unit in ZvP and ZvT Yes they can, Zerg is going way over 50/50 right now in those matchups, and mutas are too strong in both of them. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On May 10 2014 00:31 Whitewing wrote: Yes they can, Zerg is going way over 50/50 right now in those matchups, and mutas are too strong in both of them. I've seen nothing to indicate that zerg is somehow OP vs protoss. Protoss has won just about everything so far in 2014. If anything, mass muta is bad vs top protosses these days, they've refined their responses to it well enough where a protoss should almost never lose to it unless you get completely blindsided or start from a substantial disadvantage. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 10 2014 01:35 Squat wrote: I've seen nothing to indicate that zerg is somehow OP vs protoss. Protoss has won just about everything so far in 2014. If anything, mass muta is bad vs top protosses these days, they've refined their responses to it well enough where a protoss should almost never lose to it unless you get completely blindsided or start from a substantial disadvantage. It's not mutalisks alone that make PvZ hard, and as of last month, it was 52/48 in favor of zerg (which is not way over, but it was 57/43 in favor of zerg in ZvT). (Data from Aligulac). Mutalisks require such a hard response from protoss: they have to drop what they're doing and go straight to mass pheonix ASAP. Zergs abuse this by going muta into swarmhost (while all the toss gas is going into phoenix instead of colossus), or swarmhost into muta, or various tech switches into mutalisk. Protoss can't robo expand anymore because of muta: all builds that take a third must incorporate a stargate in some way or they outright die to mutalisks. Not to mention that if you scout the spire, it might just be corrupters to kill your colossi, and if you start going phoenix against a roach/hydra/corrupter bust, you're probably going to die. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 10 2014 02:10 Whitewing wrote: It's not mutalisks alone that make PvZ hard, and as of last month, it was 52/48 in favor of zerg (which is not way over, but it was 57/43 in favor of zerg in ZvT). (Data from Aligulac). Mutalisks require such a hard response from protoss: they have to drop what they're doing and go straight to mass pheonix ASAP. Zergs abuse this by going muta into swarmhost (while all the toss gas is going into phoenix instead of colossus), or swarmhost into muta, or various tech switches into mutalisk. Protoss can't robo expand anymore because of muta: all builds that take a third must incorporate a stargate in some way or they outright die to mutalisks. Not to mention that if you scout the spire, it might just be corrupters to kill your colossi, and if you start going phoenix against a roach/hydra/corrupter bust, you're probably going to die. Indeed, this actually started to appear last summer but disappeared because everyone started instead doing Leenock's flavour of the week fast upgraded ultra build and then didn't go back to this style for some reason. I never understood why it went away because it is so insanely powerful. I refer to it as the Catch 22 build. Zerg goes either both spire and infestation pit or spire and hydra den at the same time. Because of how different the responses to muta and swarmhost/hydra are, if Protoss commits to countering one and Zerg simply faked one and went into the other, Protoss ends up with essentially a build order loss, even though they did scout both techs. One of the solutions Protoss had of going the middle road and getting both techs left them open to tons of other timings because they had to sink all their gas into both stargate and robo/robo bay, not to mention this solution didn't really work against a proper committal to one tech from Zerg. One stargate cannot hold against mass muta or muta/corruptor, and, though one robo can hold swarmhost itself, it is too slow to produce the required amount of colossi before Zerg can get viper tech. The only way to properly beat it this opening to know exactly what Zerg is actually going actually commit to, which you can't know until they have already committed, which one can only scout when it is too late to start getting a response to it, hence Catch 22. The solution many Protoss had to it was to all-in, which is exactly what we are starting to see at the pro level now. We are seeing tons of immortal all-ins again, not because they are good, but because, when combined with the new larger maps, Protoss's requirement to commit heavily against a tech upon scouting it becomes a huge weakness as Zerg begins to bank money, which is much more doable on large maps. We are starting to see exactly what we saw in 2012, an influx of European Zergs suddenly showing up out of nowhere and beating the best Korean Terran and Protoss players in tournaments. They all disappeared for the first year of HOTS when Zerg no longer had a Broodlord/Infestor-style option and had to play a more straight-up game. Now they are appearing again and suddenly are beating top Koreans again. That makes me rather suspicious that something is happening with the matchups, to say the least. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 10 2014 02:50 Ben... wrote: Indeed, this actually started to appear last summer but disappeared because everyone started instead doing Leenock's flavour of the week fast upgraded ultra build and then didn't go back to this style for some reason. I never understood why it went away because it is so insanely powerful. I refer to it as the Catch 22 build. Zerg goes either both spire and infestation pit or spire and hydra den at the same time. Because of how different the responses to muta and swarmhost/hydra are, if Protoss commits to countering one and Zerg simply faked one and went into the other, Protoss ends up with essentially a build order loss, even though they did scout both techs. One of the solutions Protoss had of going the middle road and getting both techs left them open to tons of other timings because they had to sink all their gas into both stargate and robo/robo bay, not to mention this solution didn't really work against a proper committal to one tech from Zerg. One stargate cannot hold against mass muta or muta/corruptor, and, though one robo can hold swarmhost itself, it is too slow to produce the required amount of colossi before Zerg can get viper tech. The only way to properly beat it this opening to know exactly what Zerg is actually going actually commit to, which you can't know until they have already committed, which one can only scout when it is too late to start getting a response to it, hence Catch 22. The solution many Protoss had to it was to all-in, which is exactly what we are starting to see at the pro level now. We are seeing tons of immortal all-ins again, not because they are good, but because, when combined with the new larger maps, Protoss's requirement to commit heavily against a tech upon scouting it becomes a huge weakness as Zerg begins to bank money, which is much more doable on large maps. We are starting to see exactly what we saw in 2012, an influx of European Zergs suddenly showing up out of nowhere and beating the best Korean Terran and Protoss players in tournaments. They all disappeared for the first year of HOTS when Zerg no longer had a Broodlord/Infestor-style option and had to play a more straight-up game. Now they are appearing again and suddenly are beating top Koreans again. That makes me rather suspicious that something is happening with the matchups, to say the least. What the fuck are you talking about? Every Korean Protoss from Ruin to Zest currently knows how to beat Swarm Hosts and Mutas, even if played by Life or Soulkey. Every Korean Protoss picks Frost and Alterzim against Zerg, because on those maps lategame for Zerg is very hard, given how hard it is to both, defend or attack with SHs there. Welmu, ToD, HasuObs of the top of my head, foreign Protoss players that recently beat Korean Zergs. Rain in his infamous "new BL/Infestor"-Interview even said that Protoss has an advantage against Zerg currently. Hell, Zest won every game in which he attempted to macro against soO in the GSL finals. The 3 soO wins were a failed canonrush, a failed 4gate+phoenix timing and a failed warp prism+warpgate rush. We saw a bunch of Immortal/Sentry attempts lately, because some of the maps are/were simply very strong for them. Not because Protoss must, but because they can. No clue what you are talking about. Given the winrates, given the tournament results, given the player distribution, given the possible strategies, given that no race is at a disadvantage at a particular point in time (unless matchspecific): The matchup is pretty balanced. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
1) Swarm hosts deal -1 damage for every wave of locusts they send. This is reset as soon as they unburrow. Boom, this forces at least some amount of micro, and leaves a window of vulnerability. 2) Swarm host locust waves cost 1 mineral. Boom, since they cost money, they can't just force stalemates anymore. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 10 2014 06:32 fishjie wrote: Since the turtling style is a problem, why not implement changes such as: 1) Swarm hosts deal -1 damage for every wave of locusts they send. This is reset as soon as they unburrow. Boom, this forces at least some amount of micro, and leaves a window of vulnerability. 2) Swarm host locust waves cost 1 mineral. Boom, since they cost money, they can't just force stalemates anymore. Those are pretty terrible ideas. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
On May 10 2014 02:10 Whitewing wrote: It's not mutalisks alone that make PvZ hard, and as of last month, it was 52/48 in favor of zerg (which is not way over, but it was 57/43 in favor of zerg in ZvT). (Data from Aligulac). pretty pretentious to call 53% OP | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
Not really, they basically solve boring SH turtle style and force them to be used actively. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 10 2014 07:12 fishjie wrote: Not really, they basically solve boring SH turtle style and force them to be used actively. going hotkey + shift + R + R is not what I would call forcing them to be active. Nor is making zerg the guinea pig of having the only units in SC2 existence that upon purchasing it will die even if you don't use it. Even banelings and scarab shots wait until they're needed to die. It doesn't do anything save remove a zerg unit from being useful since 90% of a SH's use is to send Locus to a location to do no damage and have them die in order to maintain control of that zone. its the obvious change made by a bitter person who does not like a unit and hence instead of discussing it, attempts to simply force it out of the equation in order for him to dodge having to actually make arguments. | ||
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MattMannion
United States25 Posts
On May 10 2014 00:20 -Archangel- wrote: They cannot neft muta when muta is a key unit in ZvP and ZvT sure i agree with you there as zerg, but even i find the health regen to be a bit over the top as of right now. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 10 2014 07:47 y0su wrote: I wonder what it would look like if locusts followed the same rally rules as every other unit (move command)... Just requiring the player to a-move the locusts could have a big impact. I find this idea very very sexy | ||
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