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On May 10 2014 22:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
It'll make a huge impact actually in pre-stalemate situations, people will have to return to their Shosts every spawn cycle, box and A-move, while keeping up with everything else. Something will have to suffer, even if just a little it makes the task of pulling a Shost player apart a little easier for a T/P player
What I see in high level plays is that players constantly do "moving shot" with their swarm hosts, by burrowing them, waiting for locusts to spawn, and unborrowing and moving to another location before burrowing them again to spawn more locusts, consistently every spawn cycle. If they have enough multitasking to do that, I doubt they would have problem doing extra a-move with locusts again. The change would definitely affect players who are of lower skill level than them, though.
Obviously this is not the case in stalemate cases, and in those cases I doubt there will be a need to multitask as you only need to focus on the swarmhosts and your defense line.
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I dont like how much a turtle style in sc2 is frowned upon. Turtle SH play is in no way the standard way to go, the metagame is constantly shifting and as long as its not like in WoL where every ZvX was about reaching BL infestor, I see no reason to change Swarm hosts.
I enjoy watching all kinds of sc2, including Turtle styles.
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
On May 10 2014 23:08 Estancia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2014 22:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
It'll make a huge impact actually in pre-stalemate situations, people will have to return to their Shosts every spawn cycle, box and A-move, while keeping up with everything else. Something will have to suffer, even if just a little it makes the task of pulling a Shost player apart a little easier for a T/P player What I see in high level plays is that players constantly do "moving shot" with their swarm hosts, by burrowing them, waiting for locusts to spawn, and unborrowing and moving to another location before burrowing them again to spawn more locusts, consistently every spawn cycle. If they have enough multitasking to do that, I doubt they would have problem doing extra a-move with locusts again. The change would definitely affect players who are of lower skill level than them, though. Obviously this is not the case in stalemate cases, and in those cases I doubt there will be a need to multitask as you only need to focus on the swarmhosts and your defense line.
Yeah for sure, especially in PL/Code S games you see a lot more posturing and manoeuvring with Swarmhosts.
Aside from not particularly liking the unit, that level (and good foreign Swarmhosters) it isn't really an issue anyway, so tweaking it to affect all the levels underneath would be OK in my book.
Indeed in terms of siege weapon + carefully positioned lines of static D and the thin line between dying before establishment/being extremely hard to break afterwards, it isn't a million miles away from mech at all, even the hallowed BW variety.
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I love how Stephano still affects the SC2 meta after all this time. I'm 99% sure he took up using Swarmhosts to just troll the community. Mission Accomplished!!
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On May 11 2014 02:53 tshi wrote:
I love how Stephano still affects the SC2 meta after all this time. I'm 99% sure he took up using Swarmhosts to just troll the community. Mission Accomplished!! I remember that Stephano saw his opponent doing the complete stalemate, turtle at main base. So it wasn't his idea. And he is usually pretty good at breaking through in other SH vs SH games.
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On May 11 2014 02:53 tshi wrote:
I love how Stephano still affects the SC2 meta after all this time. I'm 99% sure he took up using Swarmhosts to just troll the community. Mission Accomplished!!
I'm 100% sure he does it because he said mass SH would be all the fuzz in all matchups for everything and completely broken, and man was he wrong.
Top ZvZ sees SHs hardly every and it's still shit against bio, no to mention it isn't even broken in the MUs where it occurs.
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I'm 100% sure he does it because he said mass SH would be all the fuzz in all matchups for everything and completely broken, and man was he wrong.
Top ZvZ sees SHs hardly every and it's still shit against bio, no to mention it isn't even broken in the MUs where it occurs.
I don't know Kev.. I can see it become like Infestor/BL, but with Swarm Host. Maps get bigger and as timings gets figured out it will become more and more about lategame compositions. Bio can be dealt with.
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On May 11 2014 00:01 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I dont like how much a turtle style in sc2 is frowned upon. Turtle SH play is in no way the standard way to go, the metagame is constantly shifting and as long as its not like in WoL where every ZvX was about reaching BL infestor, I see no reason to change Swarm hosts.
I enjoy watching all kinds of sc2, including Turtle styles.
if you aren't able to prevent protoss from building a heavy tech composition and you go into a long macro game, playing defensively with swarm hosts and vipers (and static D if that's your thing) is overwhelmingly the strongest and most stable style. i'm not comfortable in zvp lategame because throwing locusts at a bunch of colossus/VR/templar/tempests/etc. is horrendously boring and obnoxious. i find stable macro games in zvt and zvz not only comfortable but fun and thrilling, the matchups make sense and have a lot of action and potential for counterattacks and micro.
yes there are ways to be aggressive against protoss. you can win games and do damage with roach/ling, ling/hydra, roach/hydra/viper, roach/hydra/corruptor, etc. but if the game doesn't end and protoss techs up without being insanely behind, swarm hosts are still the destination. melee into ultra/brood lord is a lot of fun but it gets hardcountered fast and you have to win or switch out of that too.
what i want is for long, stable macro zvp games to be fun and playable without zerg relying entirely on free units and risky spellcasting (vipers and infestors take an extremely high level of control to be used well). it's a deep design issue, i realize that, and i don't have the answer since i'm not being paid to design games. but the ticking timebomb leading to lategame zvp makes the matchup very frustrating and upsetting to play. there's no other matchup with this problem other than arguably tvz mech, but mech isn't as strong as protoss deathballing and most subpro players don't use it very well anyway, so it's not as big of an issue
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On May 11 2014 03:29 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +I'm 100% sure he does it because he said mass SH would be all the fuzz in all matchups for everything and completely broken, and man was he wrong.
Top ZvZ sees SHs hardly every and it's still shit against bio, no to mention it isn't even broken in the MUs where it occurs. I don't know Kev.. I can see it become like Infestor/BL, but with Swarm Host. Maps get bigger and as timings gets figured out it will become more and more about lategame compositions. Bio can be dealt with.
Maps getting bigger has always been worse for BL/Infestor and much more so for Swarm Hosts.
Timings getting figured out and the game becoming more about lategame compositions favors the race with the best lategame composition, which is argueable and mapdepend, though on bigger maps imo Protoss (see how Zest, Classic play on Alterzim and Frost, beating Zergs with 10k/5k banks because eventually Protoss gets enough stargates and robos to insta-adapt to anything Zerg can do while SHs are just shit on those maps).
Bio can be dealt with (too well currently), that is true. Not really with SHs though. Against bio other compositions are simply stronger in the lategame, since locusts mainly trade medivac energy (=time) with spawning time and cannot hold back big bioballs who go through locusts like a knife through butter. While Infestors, banelings or queen/ultra can actually kill lots of stuff and are required to your SHs in masses to begin with, to prevent losing to a stim move.
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
If you still had maps like Daybreak it would be broken, emphasis on the 'if' part
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On May 11 2014 05:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you still had maps like Daybreak it would be broken, emphasis on the 'if' part
Yeah. Especially on Daybreak. I remember how sick they were at sieging the 4th from around your 4th...
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Any reasoning as to why the 12+4 air is just for bio on the Hydralisks?
Would it break the other matchups?
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On May 11 2014 03:29 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +I'm 100% sure he does it because he said mass SH would be all the fuzz in all matchups for everything and completely broken, and man was he wrong.
Top ZvZ sees SHs hardly every and it's still shit against bio, no to mention it isn't even broken in the MUs where it occurs. I don't know Kev.. I can see it become like Infestor/BL, but with Swarm Host. Maps get bigger and as timings gets figured out it will become more and more about lategame compositions. Bio can be dealt with.
Bigger maps = SH are worse...
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On May 12 2014 10:10 b0ub0u wrote:
Any reasoning as to why the 12+4 air is just for bio on the Hydralisks?
Would it break the other matchups?
Its because Blizz is being cautious. I don't think they have any idea what it would to other matchups.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
On May 11 2014 00:01 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I dont like how much a turtle style in sc2 is frowned upon. Turtle SH play is in no way the standard way to go, the metagame is constantly shifting and as long as its not like in WoL where every ZvX was about reaching BL infestor, I see no reason to change Swarm hosts.
I enjoy watching all kinds of sc2, including Turtle styles.
The problem is that sometimes we just have those days..
There was one day where i watched two games - just two, one was rematched, but it took six hours - literally - in game time. Two best of one's, one in pro play (rematched) and one stephano ladder game, with people not screwing around and trying to win
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Locust should be melee .like broodlings :D
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I would suggest to let the unit as it is and nerf curropters. just straight -5 damage. So that I feel like I can win a Air battle against this damn cheap unit and so clear the ground. It is just my not educated noob opinion but I dont see any air superiority against zerg. what makes this unit so strong.
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On May 13 2014 07:15 tadL wrote:
I would suggest to let the unit as it is and nerf curropters. just straight -5 damage. So that I feel like I can win a Air battle against this damn cheap unit and so clear the ground
Wait...
Is corrupter spam what is breaking ZvZ?
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Who cares about zvz. its nice to see a mix between games that are just roach vs roach or more roach vs more roach or roach with infestors vs roach with no infestors or roach with infestors vs roach with infestors...and this get sometimes mixed up in a short "lol he died to 9/10 pool ling/baneling all in.
Its just that the air units of terran are to weak against zerg air and toss it is the same, if zerg understands to just go away if they overload. And with no ability to get air dominance this ground units are anoying and hard to clear.
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On May 13 2014 07:19 tadL wrote:
Who cares about zvz. its nice to see a mix between games that are just roach vs roach vs more roach vs more roach vs roach with infestors vs roach with no infestors or roach with infestors vs roach with infestors...and this get sometimes mixed up in a short "lol he died to 9/10 pool ling/baneling.
Because Blizzard's thoughts was that ZvZ long SH games were problematic to them, but they thought SH in other matchups were fine as of now.
In my head this is going to be known as the Stephano nerf and any future Zerg nerfs will be henceforth nicknamed "catching steph"
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EPT
