EPTBlizzard's thoughts on Swarm Hosts - Page 35
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 09 2014 07:03 Whitewing wrote: I think the idea for this buff is to allow you to split your hydras in the midgame to defend your bases vs. mutas rather than relying on heavy spore defenses. I don't think it accomplishes that though: 10 hydras aren't going to beat 20 mutas now, they won't beat them after. I thought the goal was to allow mutas to actually attack far off bases without getting stopped by a mere 3-4 spores. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 09 2014 07:04 Thieving Magpie wrote: I thought the goal was to allow mutas to actually attack far off bases without getting stopped by a mere 3-4 spores. It is, but they need to buff hydras to compensate or else ZvZ will be muta vs muta wars again, which is why spores were buffed in the first place. The idea was also to fix swarmhost vs swarmhost by making it so mass spores didn't just instant-gib broodlords yanked into them, but this doesn't accomplish that either. It's just not a good change. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 09 2014 06:39 MonkeyKing_slk wrote: I doubt about the change on hydra. Clearly for now muta cannot directly fight hydra. Muta use high mobility to attack things that are not protected by hydra, or eat small group of hydra. With this buff everything still remain the same. Well, stuff like that will help hydraplay vs mass muta, yet I fear that opening ling/bling into muta is just going to stomp fast hydralisks in the economy game. The opening dynamics probably will dictate mutas, but when both players go mutas, we know what happens. It all comes down to third bases. Also Im not sure at all if this helps stalemates... BLs are still too slow to escape from the spores after bein pulled. At best, there are going to be a little less SHs and a little extra hydras I guess. Assuming your opponent is looking like going broods. | ||
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iknowFiRE
Slovenia37 Posts
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
They see a problem with the Swarmhost, but don't want to change anything on it (yet). They rather change things that have nothing to do with them. A Swarmhost is not affected by any anti-bio-air damage (as long as it's not lifted by a Phoenix  ).Playing around with the anti-bio-air damage does actually show that they see a problem with Mutalisks. And yes there is. The Spore Crawler buff against bio was only implemented to counter the strength of Mutas. In TvZ what was first, the Muta regen buff or the Widow Mine, is not important, but since the WMs were nerfed, Mutas are really hard to beat due to their regen. So instead of throwing this anti-bio-air damage buff from one unit or structure to another to see where it looks the least awkward, why not just nerf the Muta regen rate? We could forget about the anti-bio-air damage then and even TvZ balance should look way better then. I'm not too sure about PvZ to be honest, but as far as I have seen Zergs don't rely on Mutas too much there (I may be wrong though). Just for completeness: The problem of the Muta regen is that, as long as the Zerg just pokes and prods with them without losing any, the flock keeps on growing, eventually getting to numbers that can snipe anything that was actually meant to counter them (e.g. Thors). The high regen rate lets the Zerg player harass very often though, without leaving the opponent time to breath or even counterattack/-harass. The Mutas can basically harass one spot, then fly to another and by the time they get there, they're all back to full health. The opponent quite much has no choice but to turtle up like crazy or risk being picked apart slowly but surely. With lower regen on Mutas the Zerg player can still choose to harass very much, but he'll eventually lose Mutas that he has to rebuild. Or he chooses to wait for them to fully regen, which would now take longer, giving the opponent the chance to strike back instead of running in circles inside his own base. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
That hydra buff is fucking absurd. People need to realize that it will do +4 vs every other unit the zerg has. Game will basically turn into mass hydra. I don't even think banes would play a part because hydras will be 2 shotting banes all game long. No one would ever go air. roaches would melt. lings would melt. ultras would melt. swarmhosts would be the only thing to even hold them off. And of course broodlords are the counter, but then we have abduct. They just need to change the way the SH operates. Reduce the life of the locusts to like 3 each, make them spawn way faster (like lurker attack speed), and reduce the range of the locusts. Honestly though, that is highly unlikely as blizz is supremely stubborn with this very poorly designed unit. A more realistic option is simply to add another upgrade to the infestation pit for swarm hosts. Maybe something like remove this unit from the game for 200/200 | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
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sparklyresidue
United States5524 Posts
On May 09 2014 19:02 MarlieChurphy wrote: These suggested changes are stupid and bad. That hydra buff is fucking absurd. People need to realize that it will do +4 vs every other unit the zerg has. Game will basically turn into mass hydra. I don't even think banes would play a part because hydras will be 2 shotting banes all game long. No one would ever go air. roaches would melt. lings would melt. ultras would melt. swarmhosts would be the only thing to even hold them off. And of course broodlords are the counter, but then we have abduct. They just need to change the way the SH operates. Reduce the life of the swarm hosts to like 3 each, make them spawn way faster (like lurker attack speed), and reduce the range of the locusts. Honestly though, that is highly unlikely as blizz is supremely stubborn with this very poorly designed unit. A more realistic option is simply to add another upgrade to the infestation pit for swarm hosts. Maybe something like remove this unit from the game for 200/200 every other AIR unit zerg has roach still better | ||
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random hero
Germany31 Posts
I like the concept of swarmhost, they are indeed a dreadful menace to the enemy, they can slowly and heartlessly destroy your valuable units for free. I fear swarm host. But there is little more satisfieing in SC2, especially from spectator point of view, than finally blinking on top of the helpless swarmhosts, after long outmaneuvering, or a strong colossus frontal attack, and to freaking roast those b******. I like the tension they create. As long as swarmhost vs. swarmhost or urltralon stalemate games don't become the standard, I'm absolutely fine with them. Love them! I don't get the general hate.. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 09 2014 20:17 random hero wrote: I think swarmhosts are great, at least for me as a spectator. They give the chance that a game can (rarely) develop into a ridicuous 90 minute stalemate. Actually more some kind of exhaustion game between the two players, because they constantly fight for mineraly efficiency to wear out the opponent. It would suck if this would happen all the time, but so far its a relatively minor appearance (to me). I like the concept of swarmhost, they are indeed a dreadful menace to the enemy, they can slowly and heartlessly destroy your valuable units for free. I fear swarm host. But there is little more satisfieing in SC2, especially from spectator point of view, than finally blinking on top of the helpless swarmhosts, after long outmaneuvering, or a strong colossus frontal attack, and to freaking roast those b******. I like the tension they create. As long as swarmhost vs. swarmhost or urltralon stalemate games don't become the standard, I'm absolutely fine with them. Love them! I don't get the general hate.. I like SH because they remind me of siege tanks in brood war. Long range monsters you can never directly engage that forces the enemy army to maneuver like a mad man. They have problems, yes, and the ZvZ problem with them is absurd, at least air superiority in tvt (both bw and sc2) allows mech vs mech to break each other, in ZvZ the only counter to mass swarm host is even more swarm hosts. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: I like SH because they remind me of siege tanks in brood war. Long range monsters you can never directly engage that forces the enemy army to maneuver like a mad man. They have problems, yes, and the ZvZ problem with them is absurd, at least air superiority in tvt (both bw and sc2) allows mech vs mech to break each other, in ZvZ the only counter to mass swarm host is even more swarm hosts. Tanks in brood war didn't have 67 range. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:14 [PkF] Wire wrote: I actually quite enjoy SHs when they're not fighting themselves too, and think, like BurningRanger, that the real problem lays in muta regen being so strong it forces to nullify any air play attempt if you don't want every ZvZ to be mutas vs mutas. Recent trends show that mutas could be strong too in ZvT, so I think it could be a good thing if a balance test map with a toned down muta regen was launched. Mutas are too strong in ZvT, ZvP, and ZvZ. They were overbuffed by blizzard for HotS. Blizzard had no way to fix it in ZvZ other than a really stupid spore crawler buff. Protoss has no answer other than phoenix (nothing ground based works, and it's a serious design problem when you cannot defeat air harass units with ground based defenses no matter how hard you try), and terran's massive anti-air army is struggling against them, despite marines, thors, widow mines, and very strong static defense (turrets are super good). | ||
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polpot
3002 Posts
On May 09 2014 20:17 random hero wrote: I think swarmhosts are great, at least for me as a spectator. They give the chance that a game can (rarely) develop into a ridicuous 90 minute stalemate. Actually more some kind of exhaustion game between the two players, because they constantly fight for mineraly efficiency to wear out the opponent. It would suck if this would happen all the time, but so far its a relatively minor appearance (to me). I like the concept of swarmhost, they are indeed a dreadful menace to the enemy, they can slowly and heartlessly destroy your valuable units for free. I fear swarm host. But there is little more satisfieing in SC2, especially from spectator point of view, than finally blinking on top of the helpless swarmhosts, after long outmaneuvering, or a strong colossus frontal attack, and to freaking roast those b******. I like the tension they create. As long as swarmhost vs. swarmhost or urltralon stalemate games don't become the standard, I'm absolutely fine with them. Love them! I don't get the general hate.. I agree, the Swarmhost is a great unit, it give some depth to the zerg arsenal and allow defensive macro play | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
[B]Mutas are too strong in ZvT, ZvP, and ZvZ. They were overbuffed by blizzard for HotS. Blizzard had no way to fix it in ZvZ other than a really stupid spore crawler buff. Protoss has no answer other than phoenix (nothing ground based works, and it's a serious design problem when you cannot defeat air harass units with ground based defenses no matter how hard you try), and terran's massive anti-air army is struggling against them, despite marines, thors, widow mines, and very strong static defense (turrets are super good). Exactly, and people are only starting to realize that because let's face it, release widow mine was imba and P has excellent ways to play against mutas (though you kinda need pheonix, yeah). I really wish muta regen was put under further scrutiny. | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
On May 09 2014 18:16 BurningRanger wrote: Blizzard's way to deal with this is rather strange. They see a problem with the Swarmhost, but don't want to change anything on it (yet). They rather change things that have nothing to do with them. A Swarmhost is not affected by any anti-bio-air damage (as long as it's not lifted by a Phoenix ).Playing around with the anti-bio-air damage does actually show that they see a problem with Mutalisks. And yes there is. The Spore Crawler buff against bio was only implemented to counter the strength of Mutas. In TvZ what was first, the Muta regen buff or the Widow Mine, is not important, but since the WMs were nerfed, Mutas are really hard to beat due to their regen. So instead of throwing this anti-bio-air damage buff from one unit or structure to another to see where it looks the least awkward, why not just nerf the Muta regen rate? We could forget about the anti-bio-air damage then and even TvZ balance should look way better then. I'm not too sure about PvZ to be honest, but as far as I have seen Zergs don't rely on Mutas too much there (I may be wrong though). Just for completeness: The problem of the Muta regen is that, as long as the Zerg just pokes and prods with them without losing any, the flock keeps on growing, eventually getting to numbers that can snipe anything that was actually meant to counter them (e.g. Thors). The high regen rate lets the Zerg player harass very often though, without leaving the opponent time to breath or even counterattack/-harass. The Mutas can basically harass one spot, then fly to another and by the time they get there, they're all back to full health. The opponent quite much has no choice but to turtle up like crazy or risk being picked apart slowly but surely. With lower regen on Mutas the Zerg player can still choose to harass very much, but he'll eventually lose Mutas that he has to rebuild. Or he chooses to wait for them to fully regen, which would now take longer, giving the opponent the chance to strike back instead of running in circles inside his own base. Blizzard is mostly addressing the concerns of ZvZ swarmhosts not ZvP or ZvT swarmhosts. It is not an easy fix in the other matchups whereas the swarmhost strategy in ZvZ needs a stronger counter strategy since there does not seem to be one. It's not all about the muta, it's about the inability to use air against the turtle swarmhost due to Vipers and the spore crawler's bonus damage to bio-air. With this proposed changed it allows broodlords more time and more damage output against spore crawlers and eventually against swarmhosts. It is so hard for another player to beat an entrenched swarmhost player hiding behind a good amount of static D and vipers. This again makes mutas more viable for longer in ZvZ if opponent is not going muta themselves. Opposed to spore crawlers, a roach hydra force can be more mobile in dealing with a larger muta flock when previously it would be hard to if the roach hydra player does not have a good amount of hydras. In other to quash the SH vs SH, I think they need to make the broodlord and only the broodlord un-abductable as making all massive units un-abductable would drastically change ZvT and ZvP. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 09 2014 23:25 polpot wrote: I agree, the Swarmhost is a great unit, it give some depth to the zerg arsenal and allow defensive macro play Or they could give us useful Lurkers instead if you want defensive macro play. They would force tanks or Collosi or air units from both Terran or Toss. They would revive tank use in TvZ outside of pure Mech play. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On May 07 2014 02:30 Noocta wrote: But.. WHERE ? Seriously, I haven't seen Swarm Host being used outside of the stalemate type of games. At all. Why not changing the cause of the problem instead of always going around it.... The cause of the problems are: In ZvZ the powerful static defense makes it possible to go mass swarm hosts without having a direct counter to it. In ZvP Swarm hosts aren't a problem and can be dealt with adequately, stalemates don't occur. In ZvT The problem is ravens with point defense drones. Once they get a critical mass of ravens, The game will never go anywhere unless the terran decides to do something. But david kim already said that Ravens are being looked into. Swarm hosts are a reaction to certain terran/protoss plays and also a counter-reaction to zvz swarmhost plays. They are not a cause. | ||
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