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Not surprisingly both of these changes seem really bad. I hated the idea of buffing spores to only versus bio. Makes me really sad that they're continuing with this blatantly defunct method of game design. God forbid we address the issues people have been concerned about for years. We want the game fun to watch, not to play i suppose?
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On May 07 2014 05:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 05:18 aZealot wrote:On May 07 2014 04:59 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 04:57 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 04:48 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:On May 07 2014 04:32 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:16 Ercster wrote:On May 07 2014 04:10 Squat wrote:
[quote]
A short term fix that doesn't fuck up zerg late game is preferable, and available. Make BLs immune to abduct. Done. "- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it. o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air. o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ. o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup." To me, it doesn't seem like they're capable of doing that otherwise it would have been suggested instead of all massive units. And I don't think applying it to all massive units would be helpful. What prevents them from just making the broodlord immune exclusively? Ultras are immune to roots and snares. I think elegance is part of the problem, if you have more exceptions than rules it becomes very hard to understand the game. Maybe make it so Abduct doesn't work vs Biological units? This would fix the problem with Abduct vs Brood Lord without affecting ZvMech or ZvP. Another potential fix imo is to reduce the size of locusts, this would make banelings more effective vs them and baneling / ultra can actually wreck SH compositions in ZvZ (The banelings clear a wave of locusts and the ultralisks can't be stopped by fungal so they run in and decimate the SH's before the next wave spawns). It would also be a slight buff to other AoE counters to SH (Tanks and Hellions / Hellbats, Collosi and Storm). This also runs the risk of giving locusts more dps / surface area though. I'm unconvinced, Dota 2 is riddled with exceptions and special rules, yet pulls huge viewer numbers consistently. It's confusing one or two times. Anyone who would find something like that hard to process is not very likely to be watching competitive Sc2. People who are interested enough in this game to watch other nerds play games for hours on a friday night probably have a deent understanding of what is going on already. And honestly, the market for new players getting into Sc2 at this point is likely negligible. Special rules are what make dota beautiful. If you want consistency, play another game. SC2 could use more special rules. That was kind of my point yes. Yeah, I'm just backin you up. People like to shit on good solutions by saying "it's not elegant design", whatever the fuck that mean. Icefrog has elegant design down to a science. It's called, whatever makes the game awesome, fuck consistency. Within limits, Plansix. Within limits. Too many exceptions and then it might become more worthwhile to start again from scratch. Moreover, elegant design isn't just about the beauty of a game, but also its ease of understanding. But, overall, I agree (and have said as much myself elsewhere), that opposing exceptions because it is an exception is not sound. Giving Hydras a buff vs bio-air makes more sense to me than removing Viper abduct vs massive. I disliked that ability in beta because I thought it denied positioning. But, I was wrong. It's also a cool ability and needed for Z vs P and T. Never, all exceptions all the time. Let nothing hold you back from making the game awsome. You should look up BKB for dota and what goes through it and what doesn't. Ther is no logic, no reason. It's just "makes game better" and that is it. And no one minds. Every patch is pure nonsense and special rules and we eat it up. SC2 could be the same way. Stop being held back by "elegant design" and embrace weird rules that make no logical sense.
On May 07 2014 05:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 05:18 aZealot wrote:On May 07 2014 04:59 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 04:57 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:55 Plansix wrote:On May 07 2014 04:48 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:40 Pursuit_ wrote:On May 07 2014 04:32 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 04:16 Ercster wrote:On May 07 2014 04:10 Squat wrote:
[quote]
A short term fix that doesn't fuck up zerg late game is preferable, and available. Make BLs immune to abduct. Done. "- Change the Viper’s Abduct ability to make massive units immune to it. o By making Brood Lords immune to Abduct, we’d solve the stalemate. Late game ZvZ would be mostly about who wins in the air. o There are downsides -- Abduct is a really cool ability, and it is something Zerg needs vs. Colossi in PvZ. o To address that, we’d consider a potential buff to Blinding Cloud so that Vipers would still be a valuable utility unit in the ZvP matchup." To me, it doesn't seem like they're capable of doing that otherwise it would have been suggested instead of all massive units. And I don't think applying it to all massive units would be helpful. What prevents them from just making the broodlord immune exclusively? Ultras are immune to roots and snares. I think elegance is part of the problem, if you have more exceptions than rules it becomes very hard to understand the game. Maybe make it so Abduct doesn't work vs Biological units? This would fix the problem with Abduct vs Brood Lord without affecting ZvMech or ZvP. Another potential fix imo is to reduce the size of locusts, this would make banelings more effective vs them and baneling / ultra can actually wreck SH compositions in ZvZ (The banelings clear a wave of locusts and the ultralisks can't be stopped by fungal so they run in and decimate the SH's before the next wave spawns). It would also be a slight buff to other AoE counters to SH (Tanks and Hellions / Hellbats, Collosi and Storm). This also runs the risk of giving locusts more dps / surface area though. I'm unconvinced, Dota 2 is riddled with exceptions and special rules, yet pulls huge viewer numbers consistently. It's confusing one or two times. Anyone who would find something like that hard to process is not very likely to be watching competitive Sc2. People who are interested enough in this game to watch other nerds play games for hours on a friday night probably have a deent understanding of what is going on already. And honestly, the market for new players getting into Sc2 at this point is likely negligible. Special rules are what make dota beautiful. If you want consistency, play another game. SC2 could use more special rules. That was kind of my point yes. Yeah, I'm just backin you up. People like to shit on good solutions by saying "it's not elegant design", whatever the fuck that mean. Icefrog has elegant design down to a science. It's called, whatever makes the game awesome, fuck consistency. Within limits, Plansix. Within limits. Too many exceptions and then it might become more worthwhile to start again from scratch. Moreover, elegant design isn't just about the beauty of a game, but also its ease of understanding. But, overall, I agree (and have said as much myself elsewhere), that opposing exceptions because it is an exception is not sound. Giving Hydras a buff vs bio-air makes more sense to me than removing Viper abduct vs massive. I disliked that ability in beta because I thought it denied positioning. But, I was wrong. It's also a cool ability and needed for Z vs P and T. Never, all exceptions all the time. Let nothing hold you back from making the game awsome. You should look up BKB for dota and what goes through it and what doesn't. Ther is no logic, no reason. It's just "makes game better" and that is it. And no one minds. Every patch is pure nonsense and special rules and we eat it up. SC2 could be the same way. Stop being held back by "elegant design" and embrace weird rules that make no logical sense.
You really believe that? I couldn't disagree more. Neither is elegant design to be trivialised by quotation marks. It can be over-used, I agree, in that sense. But the real appeal of it comes from consistent and easy to understand rules important not just for spectators but more, for players. Consistent, logical and sensible rules enable proper planning and better strategies and tactics. A large number of exceptions across match-ups will generally lead to frustration and unnecessary complexity. It's even worse if you take the case of people new to the game and trying to learn it for the first time.
I don't play nor watch DOTA 2. I've tried and it bores me senseless. That approach may well work in DOTA 2 (presumably because of the single unit approach to the game) but it would not be good for Starcraft. That said, don't doubt, that I'm not on board with exceptions (especially within an expansion) if necessary. But exceptions the way you appear to paint it would be bad for the game. If HOTS does go down that path (and I do not think it necessary myself - SC2 is a well designed game despite all the bs people throw at it), it should, I'd hope, be rectified in LOTV with a substantial rework of SC2.
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Purely thinking in terms of ZvZ, I think it makes it even more stale. The +bio buff for hydra vs air units, would make it harder to get to Broods and promote Roach Hydra even more. If enemy go Broods u can just abduct into Hydra, ez.
MB u need a few more Hydras in the Swarm Host composition, but it's still viable, Spores are still decent vs Broods.
As for the Abduct change it would make Broods the ultimate end all be all composition and compositions would probably look like WoL.
It would make Colossus and Tempest hard to deal with, which means no Swarm Host in ZvP what so ever.
Also this ensures that we'll never see Abduction of your own Ultras into enemy's base.
Carrier/Mothership not being abducted however is good.
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On May 07 2014 06:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:10 Gen.Rolly wrote:On May 07 2014 05:59 DinoMight wrote:On May 07 2014 05:52 Gen.Rolly wrote:
Swarm host are a good unit. Quit citing the handful of games in which they are abused to justify changing the unit. I don't see anyone complaining about mass voidray or mass raven, those units are pretty broken as well in large groups. The game ends quickly when you mass Ravens or Void Rays. Mass Swarm Host + static D takes forever and is boring as fuck to watch. They even said that since it's ZvZ there's no balance issue... "Boring to watch" is a subjective statement. I love late game SH usage personally. Everyone talked about the Reality vs Soulkey game. I think a few voices in the community are trying to apply their groupthink to the rest of us by insisting swarm hosts are bad and late games are a terrible thing. How many sc2 games end in 6 minutes because of a cheese? I find those super boring... A tournament had to deflose miniraiser because he went SH to provoc hours long games.
"Deflose"? I am not sure what your point is, but perhaps you mean a certain player and not a unit was responsible for "provoc hours long games."
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On May 07 2014 06:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:13 Xiphos wrote:On May 07 2014 06:11 Arnstein wrote:
My dream is that for the last expansion, they just revert everything back to BW, and we get crazy games all the time :D Or StarBow, those guys take the basic concept of BW and added what SC2 did right in the game. It felt much more like a true successor to the most successful Esport game of all time. If you can't tell, he likes it a lot. Also, of all time. I think superior Moba might have passed BW up a while ago.
Yes I like StarBow a lot :D
Maybe DotA 2 but LoL is still really restrictive to play and just seems like the industry was build upon by Riot instead of grassroot movements. So there is your artificial factor. DotA2, there are some things I REALLY like. While other things done wasn't exactly well. Recently, Valve is adding a lot of boring heroes but they just look cool. Not exactly sure if that add to overall enjoyment of the viewers. And there are many people out there who agree with me (Reddit + YouTube comments).
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i'd rather put energy on swarm hosts so they can't send locusts forever and ever
pretty simple change
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What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Swarmhosts produced the best games when it got past an hour.
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On May 07 2014 06:28 stenole wrote:
What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though.
Every single exception made here makes sense but they have to come up with a story that coherent to the lore of science fiction.
In terms of storyline, why wouldn't they able to do so based upon science fiction?
If their reasons for having exception is too far-fetched and doesn't make sense logically, then that's gimmicky.
You want to avoid that.
So what's your reasoning behind it?
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Maybe just give broodlords a passive to be immune to abduct, like how ultras have a passive to be immune to most CC.
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These suggestions reek of bad design, just like the spore crawler damage vs biological buff and the widow mine damage vs shields buff.
nuff said.
The swarm host is also just a silly unit overall. Their unwillingness to make any significant changes to it bodes poorly for the scene's longevity. We don't need kiddie gloves, we need strong direction.
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On a different axis, how about making swarm hosts not spawn locusts automatically but instead requiring the player to micro them with the locusts on a timeout like blink, instead of autospawn?
It may seem small and indeed it is, but it bugs me that something with such range requires so little micro while any other units require constant attention to be effective.
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On May 07 2014 06:31 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:28 stenole wrote:
What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though. Every single exception made here makes sense but they have to come up with a story that coherent to the lore of science fiction. In terms of storyline, why wouldn't they able to do so based upon science fiction? If their reasons for having exception is too far-fetched and doesn't make sense logically, then that's gimmicky. You want to avoid that. So what's your reasoning behind it?
Because reasons. There, done. Seriously, I cannot even pretend to be interested in the lore reasoning. If it makes the game better, do it. Say a wizard did it.
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United States97277 Posts
On May 07 2014 06:34 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 07 2014 06:28 stenole wrote:
What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though. Every single exception made here makes sense but they have to come up with a story that coherent to the lore of science fiction. In terms of storyline, why wouldn't they able to do so based upon science fiction? If their reasons for having exception is too far-fetched and doesn't make sense logically, then that's gimmicky. You want to avoid that. So what's your reasoning behind it? Because reasons. There, done. Seriously, I cannot even pretend to be interested in the lore reasoning. If it makes the game better, do it. Say a wizard did it.
We can borrow something from star wars. locusts are blind and can only sense the life force of things they want to attack. locusts are like an Ysalamir where they can create a bubble around themselves where you can't sense their life force. boom. locusts cant sense other locusts.
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On May 07 2014 06:34 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 07 2014 06:28 stenole wrote:
What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though. Every single exception made here makes sense but they have to come up with a story that coherent to the lore of science fiction. In terms of storyline, why wouldn't they able to do so based upon science fiction? If their reasons for having exception is too far-fetched and doesn't make sense logically, then that's gimmicky. You want to avoid that. So what's your reasoning behind it? Because reasons. There, done. Seriously, I cannot even pretend to be interested in the lore reasoning. If it makes the game better, do it. Say a wizard did it.
It doesn't though.
It mess inducing and totally takes the player out of the atmospherical ambiance.
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I feel like i'm in the mega minority who actually like super long drawn out swarmhost turtle games.
Reality vs Soulkey was great
So was MaNa vs Firecake
and Stephano vs Petraeus
Those game that Miniraser got kicked out of i51 for, i loved them.
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On May 07 2014 06:39 Josh_Video wrote:
I feel like i'm in the mega minority who actually like super long drawn out swarmhost turtle games.
Reality vs Soulkey was great
So was MaNa vs Firecake
and Stephano vs Petraeus
Those game that Miniraser got kicked out of i51 for, i loved them.
I approve of your use of the word 'mega'.
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On May 07 2014 06:39 Josh_Video wrote:
I feel like i'm in the mega minority who actually like super long drawn out swarmhost turtle games.
Reality vs Soulkey was great
So was MaNa vs Firecake
and Stephano vs Petraeus
Those game that Miniraser got kicked out of i51 for, i loved them.
Only if the final fight is REALLY awesome and long-lasting.
Its a buildup vs result situation.
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On May 07 2014 06:38 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2014 06:34 Squat wrote:On May 07 2014 06:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 07 2014 06:28 stenole wrote:
What if locusts can't target other locusts. Is that something that would work? It would make the swarmhost interaction more about sniping swarmhosts and staying clear of opponent locusts. It might completely mess up the metagame though. Every single exception made here makes sense but they have to come up with a story that coherent to the lore of science fiction. In terms of storyline, why wouldn't they able to do so based upon science fiction? If their reasons for having exception is too far-fetched and doesn't make sense logically, then that's gimmicky. You want to avoid that. So what's your reasoning behind it? Because reasons. There, done. Seriously, I cannot even pretend to be interested in the lore reasoning. If it makes the game better, do it. Say a wizard did it. It doesn't though. It mess inducing and totally takes the player out of the atmospherical ambiance.
Are you trolling us, or yourself?
There's no reason for blizzard to do anything of the kind. Maybe in campaign you can make an argument for having things be coherent with regards to the lore.
Unless you also think that having castles being able to move long distances in straight line needed to have a lore-appropriate backstory in chess?
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On May 07 2014 06:39 Josh_Video wrote:
I feel like i'm in the mega minority who actually like super long drawn out swarmhost turtle games.
Reality vs Soulkey was great
So was MaNa vs Firecake
and Stephano vs Petraeus
Those game that Miniraser got kicked out of i51 for, i loved them.
You are a monster. Or David Kim. It's not clear.
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EPT
