On February 21st, 2011, in a dimly lit bunker somewhere in greater Seoul, the three most famous professional Starcraft 2 players in the world put on an extremely awkward show. There was Jinro, the Swedish terran who had just made the Ro4 of the GSL. There was IdrA, the petulant heir to the foreign Starcraft throne. And there was the owner of the apartment, Artosis, a doomed competitor, who played host and emcee. Tens of thousands tuned in to watch. Jinro won a $1500 prize by a 4-2 score. He seemed extremely uneasy with his victory as IdrA stewed at his computer, meters away in a cramped apartment.
Jinro. IdrA. Artosis. The biggest names of Starcraft playing in a dark, cramped, living room—somewhere—under the hackneyed billing "Clash of the Titans". And the misshapen, spectacularly ill-advised, progeny of this delusion of grandeur was the North American Starcraft League.
An inauspicious start to put it mildly.
The early seasons of the NASL were characterized by the kind of tragicomedy perfected by Mr. Bean movies. In an earnest desire to get things right, the NASL seemed doomed to foul them up instead. The league pioneered a number of clever ideas, yet thought none of them through properly. The idea of players competing to market themselves with audition videos was way overdue, but the results were slipshod. The NASL's concept of a regular live online league with offline playoffs is the model now used by WCS, but the NASL version suffered from a lumbering 10-man round robin format, players who didn't show up, and an audience unwilling to look past cross-server lag. Season two introduced a dual booth with the players facing each other, yet with none of the production value that Red Bull would later employ. There's the entrance walk surrounded by fans... ...who simply weren't there. Fancy black suits on a black backdrop. Lindsey Sporrer—the list goes on and on.
The NASL's first season for all of its investment and star power was completely derailed by another newcomer in IPL, who offered a tournament of second rate NA ladder heroes but first rate production. It had entered a crowded and ruthless field. Midway through 2011, the world of SC2 tournaments began to drastically elevate their presentation. NASL was woefully outmatched. The second season LAN finals were held in a convention center that appeared completely empty, a week after Dreamhack at staged their final in a hockey stadium. The event was won by the Korean Terran PuMa, who had mastered a universally hated all-in and possessed none of the charm that would allow players like PartinG to get away with similar things in the future.
It's telling that two of the NASL's most enduring contributions to the SC2 scene are memes associated with failure. The hatred of "announcements of announcements" persists to the present day. And at the slightest bit of sound trouble, the spectre of "NASL Soundguy" is invoked. Both memes are actually so pervasive, they have entered the lexicon of other esports, as the diaspora of SC2's early fans have found homes with different games. That is how we remember the NASL most of all.
At the initial announcement, it was said that three seasons of the NASL were already budgeted for, but after season two, many publicly doubted that the NASL would even bother soldiering on.
Yet it turned out that the NASL was less a Mr. Bean character, and instead a bit more like Mr. Magoo (you are forgiven for missing the references). Nevermind all the fuck-ups and self-inflicted wounds and embarrassments. Nevermind the derision and the memes and the misfortune. The NASL walked through the swamp and somehow came out in a clean suit and a pressed pair of slacks.
The turning point was season three. I was there. I drove nine hours from New York City to Toronto for my first ever American esports event. The venue wasn't really in Toronto, but the concrete suburb of Mississauga, with airplanes roaring overhead. The building was basically a warehouse. Three of the eight players didn't even show up until an hour before the matches started. But all was forgotten.
This was the tournament where Stephano put on his greatest ever performance, absolutely savaging a line-up of world class protoss players. This was the tournament where Scarlett—tacked onto the afterthought WCS Canada event—became a true star. The production issues vanished. The event ended with Stephano being blasted by champagne and the entire crew dancing to M83 on the stage. It felt like a spontaneous expression of joy; victory of both the player and the organization.
Actually, it wasn't spontaneous at all, and that made all the difference. NASL had hired a professional to produce the show. He ran a tight ship throughout the broadcast. Before the finals, he came backstage and told the casters, personalities, and Stephano something like; "for the winning ceremony, everyone is going to go out there and dance with the music and we're going to close on that". It played superbly.
The ability of the SC2 community to forgive and forget is tremendous. The NASL profited completely from this. After a single successful event, its position in the constellation of SC2 tournaments was secure. A fourth season was announced. The IPL folded. MLG retreated from the game. Even after a fifth season failed to follow on the heels of the fourth and WCS was awarded to a competitor, the NASL found additional work as the best freelance studio in the world. This was another brilliant innovation. It's hard to think of another esports organization that so clearly and consistently foresaw the future of the game, even if they often struggled to capitalize on it.
Yesterday, the NASL announced that after over three years, they will be leaving StarCraft 2. It seems like the end may have come rapidly, with NASL dropping their WCS responsibilities and ESL having to scramble to cover it. We will probably learn in the future what stresses caused what was once the most resilient organization in SC2 to fold. And we must all hope that the NASL's prescience doesn't extend to this, that it doesn't foretell further contraction of the SC2 scene. Perhaps, like several recent player 'retirements', NASL might show up again one day, briefcase in hand, coat draped over arm as if nothing were amiss.
It's doubtful the league made much money. It's much more likely that after three years they still lost a significant amount. But there can be no disputing that the SC2 scene has gained immeasurably from NASL's presence. Witnessing its departure, which once seemed inevitable, now comes as a shock.
The NASL began with Jinro against IdrA. Both have retired from the game. The world into which the NASL was born has always seemed like another era. Even more so now.
The event was won by the Korean Terran PuMa, who had mastered a universally hated all-in and possessed none of the charm that would allow players like PartinG to get away with similar things in the future.
Good article, but I would argue that with the above sentence your kinda not representing the truth here. Puma won over MC through solid standard macrogames. I think it was first untill after the EMP-nerf that he began to really abuse the 1/1/1 as his corebuild.
The event was won by the Korean Terran PuMa, who had mastered a universally hated all-in and possessed none of the charm that would allow players like PartinG to get away with similar things in the future.
Good article, but I would argue that with the above sentence your kinda not representing the truth here. Puma won over MC through solid standard macrogames. I think it was first untill after the EMP-nerf that he began to really abuse the 1/1/1 as his corebuild.
that's referencing NASL S2, basically puma at the height of his 1/1/1ness
There was amazing material produced by NASL, but perhaps it was not managed and introduced to the community optimally, so it didn't reach as many people as it had the potential to thoroughly entertain. The great memories remain, thank you, guys!
Why is it that when MLG left us last year, everyone spewed these mean and hurtful comments, and now NASL does basically the same thing and there is no where near the same negative reaction? i'm not trying to start something, or say that NASL deserves hate or anything like that. i'm just baffled by the conflicting community reactions.
That clash of the titans is actually what got me into SC2, prior to that showmatch I couldn't give any fucks about SC2 I played through the campaign then moved on. Until someone was like "Dude watch some SC2 here's a showmatch" and I got so pumped watching it that I just kept watching SC2 for years and even started playing multiplayer. So I guess I owe NASL my entire SC2 passion so thanks for that.
On March 09 2014 05:56 partydude89 wrote: Why is it that when MLG left us last year, everyone spewed these mean and hurtful comments, and now NASL does basically the same thing and there is no where near the same negative reaction? i'm not trying to start something, or say that NASL deserves hate or anything like that. i'm just baffled by the conflicting community reactions.
Oh if you want some i have plenty, i'd prefer to be a bit more civilized but I really didnt like the NASL. The reason you arent seeing as much hate is because most people liked the NASL staff alot more than the MLG one. Everyone on TL loves Bitterdam to death and hated the Ax brothers. But hey its over now, nothing to do but reflect
On March 09 2014 05:56 partydude89 wrote: Why is it that when MLG left us last year, everyone spewed these mean and hurtful comments, and now NASL does basically the same thing and there is no where near the same negative reaction? i'm not trying to start something, or say that NASL deserves hate or anything like that. i'm just baffled by the conflicting community reactions.
MLG left us to go play Call of Duty and Dota2. (We love Dota2, but... why not both?) Sort of feels like a betrayl, like Starcraft isn't a good enough game for them.
Being part of NASL seasons 3 and 4, I can honestly say the team we had back then could have taken this thing to a whole new level. We were so close but alias it was not meant to be. The crew we had then is now working for many different eSports organizations and we all gained and grew a lot together. NASL put a lot into this community, never forget
NASL was one of the best regularly broadcasted foreign leagues out there. NASL 3/4 were amazing, and some of the concepts that they had with downtime, The Pulse, and other stuff they did like showmatches really provided for quality Starcraft.
The event was won by the Korean Terran PuMa, who had mastered a universally hated all-in and possessed none of the charm that would allow players like PartinG to get away with similar things in the future.
Good article, but I would argue that with the above sentence your kinda not representing the truth here. Puma won over MC through solid standard macrogames. I think it was first untill after the EMP-nerf that he began to really abuse the 1/1/1 as his corebuild.
that's referencing NASL S2, basically puma at the height of his 1/1/1ness
the season 1 finals were sick tho :o
Oh sorry my bad. Yes I thought he was talking about season 1.
On March 09 2014 05:56 partydude89 wrote: Why is it that when MLG left us last year, everyone spewed these mean and hurtful comments, and now NASL does basically the same thing and there is no where near the same negative reaction? i'm not trying to start something, or say that NASL deserves hate or anything like that. i'm just baffled by the conflicting community reactions.
Oh if you want some i have plenty, i'd prefer to be a bit more civilized but I really didnt like the NASL. The reason you arent seeing as much hate is because most people liked the NASL staff alot more than the MLG one. Everyone on TL loves Bitterdam to death and hated the Ax brothers. But hey its over now, nothing to do but reflect
Also Gretorp, Frodan, and even Lauren Elise were all lovable characters that scrapped by with what they were working with to produce some very nice production.
On March 09 2014 05:56 partydude89 wrote: Why is it that when MLG left us last year, everyone spewed these mean and hurtful comments, and now NASL does basically the same thing and there is no where near the same negative reaction? i'm not trying to start something, or say that NASL deserves hate or anything like that. i'm just baffled by the conflicting community reactions.
MLG is a big business set up to monetise games and has investors still somehow throwing millions at it, and basically said a big "FU" to SC2. NASL was set up pretty much for SC2, and it's kind of failed, so it's not dropping SC2, it's dropping away. MLG just dropped SC2 but continued as it was. The whole situation is entirely different, not sure how you can say "basically the same thing" when the organisations and what's happened is completely different in almost every way...
One way you can tell is that NASL is dropping SC2 in the middle of putting on WCS AM. That's not something you do because you are dropping a game, that's something you do because you are having serious internal issues and you can't continue going on.
I remember doing the LR threads for the majority of the second and maybe first season when motbob didn't feel like doing it until he felt like doing it again.
The first and second seasons were filled with such a garage startup feel to things that it was really fun to watch and be apart of. I honestly thought this day would come a ton sooner but I'm every so happy and glad that it didn't.
Good piece, well-written. Altho I'm not sure if these memes are worth mentioning. I mean, twitch chat is hardly representative of what occurs in the scene surrounding a game.
rip on NASL. One of my most prominent NASL memories is season 2, when Orb was sort of starting to become a household name in terms of known casters. Kind of reminds me of Nathanias these days. Minus the racism.
I remember Season 1 audition videos those were amazingly funny and awesome. Also I was the season 1 finals live and it was great Puma vs MC couldn't ask for a better matchup
The Jinro Idra showmatch that started everything was, I think, the first time that I had watched a live SC2 broadcast which then led me to watching almost every single NASL game live for season 1.
The season 3 finals in Toronto was nothing short of spectacular. The place was hot, sweaty, crowded, and seriously lacking in beer that any self-respecting person would pay for, but it was such a great time. NASL sure had their struggles, but they sure will be missed.
I'll always love the way I felt so good after NASL found their niche. The surprised posts of people after NASL3 saying "wtf... I actually really enjoyed that tournament." RIP NASL <3
On March 09 2014 07:12 jakethesnake wrote: Great article, and so many memories of NASL.
The Jinro Idra showmatch that started everything was, I think, the first time that I had watched a live SC2 broadcast which then led me to watching almost every single NASL game live for season 1.
The season 3 finals in Toronto was nothing short of spectacular. The place was hot, sweaty, crowded, and seriously lacking in beer that any self-respecting person would pay for, but it was such a great time. NASL sure had their struggles, but they sure will be missed.
I really hope someone else comes to Canada, but without NASL I doubt it
Yeah, that was a great writeup especially having now remembered all of the drama in seasons 1 and 2... their WCS seemed to finally come together at the end of 2013 and 2014 so far has been awesome (despite some of the games not being the best).
I hope the crew there gets picked up by ESL and they can carry on the Ben and Rotti show in the future.
Thanks for the memories, and here's to more from the team that I'm sure will come from wherever they go next!
Although I've moved to Dota 2 from SC2, watching NASL was my fav. It was a bunch of friends having a great time, trying out a bunch of things, without hesitation. Great laughs, great games, great attitudes and a lot of passion. Best of luck to all... you guys rock :-D
p.s. : can't wait for the reunion show when LoV gets released ;-D
Great write up, really well written and touches on the important things I think. That Jinro vs Idra showmatch was what brought a lot of people to competitive sc2 I think, and everything after that just got them hooked for good. NASL did a lot for this community and it's sad to see them go so abruptly. I hope someone can rise up and pick up the slack that will inevitably be there in the NA scene nowadays.. times are tough in the sc2 NA scene...
NASL was always kinda in the middle of the road for me. Not as big as MLG, Dreamhack or IEM but not "some events you just cheer for" like TakeTV with Homesstorycup or shoutcraft stuff.
Also in my opinion it shows a bit that you have to be either special, big or/and as much international as possible or SC2 just cant support your business.
I never liked nasl tbh, I preferred their content most when it was just rotti freelance casting. Some of their innovations seemed forced and gimmicky to me, and I actually don't have any really good memories from them (which I did have with mlg), so I'm not really sad for their departure.
On March 09 2014 07:12 jakethesnake wrote: Great article, and so many memories of NASL.
The Jinro Idra showmatch that started everything was, I think, the first time that I had watched a live SC2 broadcast which then led me to watching almost every single NASL game live for season 1.
The season 3 finals in Toronto was nothing short of spectacular. The place was hot, sweaty, crowded, and seriously lacking in beer that any self-respecting person would pay for, but it was such a great time. NASL sure had their struggles, but they sure will be missed.
I really hope someone else comes to Canada, but without NASL I doubt it
Actually, IMHO, the walking and slapping your fans hands was a good idea which was probably executed as well as possible given the circumstances. It gave us this moment,
On March 09 2014 07:12 jakethesnake wrote: Great article, and so many memories of NASL.
The Jinro Idra showmatch that started everything was, I think, the first time that I had watched a live SC2 broadcast which then led me to watching almost every single NASL game live for season 1.
The season 3 finals in Toronto was nothing short of spectacular. The place was hot, sweaty, crowded, and seriously lacking in beer that any self-respecting person would pay for, but it was such a great time. NASL sure had their struggles, but they sure will be missed.
I really hope someone else comes to Canada, but without NASL I doubt it
rip zeromus, we'll never meet again
Both of you come to Pax East. I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about how awesome it was to watch NASL season 1 and the Artosis Pylon.
Great crew, great games. I liked nasl and ipl both but in the long run nasl became my favorite. I really hate to see them go but when I saw mr. bitter was leaving I knew something was probably up. Good luck guys, may fortune find you!
How are they going under if they are responsible for WCS America? O_o?? I thought that meant a steady stream of content and revenue that they didn't have to put up the prize money for?
Did they lose that much money on seasons 1-4? They probably did :x
On March 09 2014 09:38 Bigtony wrote: How are they going under if they are responsible for WCS America? O_o?? I thought that meant a steady stream of content and revenue that they didn't have to put up the prize money for?
Did they lose that much money on seasons 1-4? They probably did :x
It turns out that having a stream three times a week with about 10-15K people watching (with top Koreans in WCS NA too), isn't enough.
We live in an era with no NAS,L no MLG, GOM is some youtube channel, HomeStory is Seatstory and Stephano looses to HeroMarine. Starcraft is not dead but what comes from now is not what we are gonna remember in 10 years.
On March 09 2014 09:43 Meldon wrote: We live in an era with no NAS,L no MLG, GOM is some youtube channel, HomeStory is Seatstory and Stephano looses to HeroMarine. Starcraft is not dead but what comes from now is not what we are gonna remember in 10 years.
MLG has SC2 running at their next event. They are hosting Clanwars on their video service and a ton of matches were just played. What rock have you been living under?
On March 09 2014 09:43 Meldon wrote: We live in an era with no NAS,L no MLG, GOM is some youtube channel, HomeStory is Seatstory and Stephano looses to HeroMarine. Starcraft is not dead but what comes from now is not what we are gonna remember in 10 years.
MLG has SC2 running at their next event. They are hosting Clanwars on their video service and a ton of matches were just played. What rock have you been living under?
if I might add:
SeatStory is in addition to HomeStory (nobody ever said otherwise)
and thank god an inactive player like Stephano loses to an up and coming player like HeroMarine. he'd be in here complaining how shitty the game would be if it was otherwise.
seriously people, at the very least get your facts straight
I disagree that they "went through the swamp and came out with a clean suit". Their swamp origins is what gave them charm. A start up that loved star craft and was daring enough to face down an incredibly competitive industry armed with nothing more than passion. I missed season one because they charged 20 bucks at the door, but I immediately felt regret when I realized what they offered. It was different. It wasn't about a big game that is a can't miss. They were offering consistent Starcraft from the players you all loved.
You could come home after a hard day and tune in to one of your favorites doing his thing, but with stakes. It was streaming, but a tournament. NASL isn't a suit. No sir, NASL is a group of dudes who loved what I love, but had the balls to do something with it. God bless the NASL and I am sorry that my waning interest in sc2 is a part of a theme that has demolished such a wonderful existence.
This makes me sad. NASL was one of the tournaments that first got me into watching StarCraft and watching/cheering for the foreigners. I always wished they were more successful and that the community would be more forgiving and understanding, which they were finally coming to do. Sad to see them go, I really would like for them to come back at some point.
Never forget Incontrol's mastery of the announcement of the announcement.
Never forget "Excellent"
Its so surreal looking back. SC2 as an esport used to feel like it was going to change the world. Today, I smile at how naive I was to feel that way. NASL coming and going really drives that home.
Man, I get a bit nostalgic thinking about early NASL, it was still before that time of tournament frenzy, when seeing a bunch of pro players duking it out every night was something I could hardly believe was possible. The random green screen shinanigans, Gretorp and incontrol casting, good stuff.
On March 09 2014 09:43 Meldon wrote: We live in an era with no NAS,L no MLG, GOM is some youtube channel, HomeStory is Seatstory and Stephano looses to HeroMarine. Starcraft is not dead but what comes from now is not what we are gonna remember in 10 years.
MLG has SC2 running at their next event. They are hosting Clanwars on their video service and a ton of matches were just played. What rock have you been living under?
On March 09 2014 09:43 Meldon wrote: We live in an era with no NAS,L no MLG, GOM is some youtube channel, HomeStory is Seatstory and Stephano looses to HeroMarine. Starcraft is not dead but what comes from now is not what we are gonna remember in 10 years.
MLG has SC2 running at their next event. They are hosting Clanwars on their video service and a ton of matches were just played. What rock have you been living under?
if I might add:
SeatStory is in addition to HomeStory (nobody ever said otherwise)
and thank god an inactive player like Stephano loses to an up and coming player like HeroMarine. he'd be in here complaining how shitty the game would be if it was otherwise.
seriously people, at the very least get your facts straight
Hey, we might as well go 4 for 4.
How is going from self-hosting to Youtube a bad thing? Lower service costs, more reach, ad revenue on top of the GSL sponsors...
If people can remember foreigner BW fondly when players were winning mousepads and hundred dollar prize pools, I think Sc2 will be remembered just fine.
It's really nostalgic, reading about all these great moments. (and from a time where the sc2 scene was exploding with activity!) Thanks for all the great events, NASL!
Though I had hoped that the end would not be in between a WCS season, a bit of an awkward and undeserving end. Still, the legacy is alive.
and thank god an inactive player like Stephano loses to an up and coming player like HeroMarine. he'd be in here complaining how shitty the game would be if it was otherwise.
Of course Stephano should loose. It's just a comparison of then and now from a nostalgia point of view. Same for MLG, i remember MLG weekends were marathons of i must not sleep for me as european, anaheim, columbus... NASL before Season 1 asking players to make youtube videos saying why they want to joing the league. That stuff. Good times.
Fantastic writeup! Thanks for the trip down memory lane <3
NASL had my respect from day one based on sheer gumption. I loved the formats they chose, and the over-reaching production value until it finally paid off and everything came together in brilliant fashion.
The North American Star League will be missed. Good luck to the crew as they move on to other things.
On March 09 2014 05:28 tree.hugger wrote: Yet it turned out that the NASL was less a Mr. Bean character, and instead a bit more like Mr. McGoo (you are forgiven for missing the references).
On March 09 2014 11:21 Garnet wrote: maybe now someone can tell me who sponsored the NASL seasons?
It varied. Ones I can remember off the top of my head include LA Bite.com, Audible.com, iBuyPower, Kingston HyperX... hmm. I don't know if their attention to sponsors was good enough.
I could also be wrong.
But I'll miss NASL. They brought so much to NA productions. They join IPL in the hall of "Dammit, why?!" They took risks, made magic, and introduced new ideas.
So many good memories aside from the games. Chance (the dog) walking here and there randomly through the stage (that dog was so cool!) Funny moments like casters eating during comercials and suddenly getting back to air, Lauren Elise and her exercises, or that section during commercials where players manned a backhoe loader to move sand too (it was called Mining Out if I remember correctly), lovely Soe and her drawings (Soe's corner), and of course Bitterdam and their usual jokes, always a good laugh...
Man, NASL was soooo much more than a StarCraft league, it was such an entertaining show. I'm really gonna miss them, I had a wonderful time watching them.
The problem was alot deeper than the NASL, it was the entire NA sc2 scene at the time, where individual profit came before the greater good of the scene.
edit: Didnt Dj Wheat say the same thing happened with counter strike? people were fucking around putting on super expensive shows (and I guess trying to make a profit)?
Really good way to send them off. Was always my favorite league. I remember sitting up late to watch Season 1, and loving every minute of the new esports scene. It was a good run.
On March 09 2014 12:15 WikidSik wrote: The problem was alot deeper than the NASL, it was the entire NA sc2 scene at the time, where individual profit came before the greater good of the scene.
edit: Didnt Dj Wheat say the same thing happened with counter strike? people were fucking around putting on super expensive shows (and I guess trying to make a profit)?
This is adorable. Who exactly was making that individual profit? Certainly wasn't NASL. They were millions in the hole, that much was obvious, even looking at the amount they spent on the initial seasons before WCS, it was massive. How do "super expensive shows" generate profit? They don't. They invested in this scene with the hope that given high enough quality, they could become sustainable and they failed.
No, in fact, the SC2 scene needs MORE focus on profit, it needs to actually make one, rather than being just a bunch of philanthropy with no hope of ever getting into the black. NASL was set up with the eventual aim of making a profit. It didn't and now it has sunk. What on earth do you mean by "greater good of the scene?". That to me just sounds like some sort of populist buzzword. You said it because it sounded cool and "grassroots" but it doesnt actually mean anything. What makes a scene healthy? Enough money to go around. Stable organisations with an obvious future and the potential to expand. Safety nets, healthy competition, good sponsorship ROI generating further sponsorship interest. What do all of those things require? Profit, because eSports is a business and not a charity. How can it be anything else though? We are talking about the same community that was in open revolt over the notion that MLG would want to run sustainable Pay-per-View invitationals, that won't stop using adblock, that balk at the idea of paying $5 a month for a subscription to a league for HD. That's just the reality we live in, any organisation that supports SC2 is trying to farm an infertile field plagued with rodents, or at least, that's what it feels like from the inside.
Please, don't say things like "greater good of the scene", it doesn't mean anything. You mean well, but you don't know what you're talking about and the community hating the idea of profit is part of the problem. You need people to be making a profit because at some point they are going to stop creating content and events on the back of passion, wishes and this distant hope that things will work out. None of those things keep the lights on.
TB dropping the truth. There is a reason that the majority of Dota 2 events start online with an offline finals. Events need to focus more on staying in the black and not wasting money trying to please every end of the community.
I'll always remember MC vs Sen on Terminus, and the crowd's "Ohhhh!" when the camera showed the void rays and broodlords about to meet.
Chance, Lauren Elise, Terry, and especially Clutch will be missed. I won't miss Bitterdam too much, they're still around, though not together so often. <3
It's good to see Frodan at Seatstory Cup; he and Gretorp grew on me a lot. Not every caster does that even if they have a large body of work.
On March 09 2014 12:58 Plansix wrote: TB dropping the truth. There is a reason that the majority of Dota 2 events start online with an offline finals. Events need to focus more on staying in the black and not wasting money trying to please every end of the community.
In the case of DOTA it's even more important because of the huge travel costs associated with flying 5 people per team around minimum.
DOTA2 started off right though, Valve built tools into the game to increase sponsor ROI and for teams to monetise and make some money by selling tickets and custom items/couriers. Their crowdfunding model for TI4 is savvy, they are innovating on all fronts and of course they have the benefit of just being a more popular game.
SC2 popped up just a little too early, I feel if it had come later it would have been able to learn a lot of lessons from the successes of LoL and DOTA2. We started off as the biggest eSport and then we got overtaken but wanted to try and maintain the same kind of size. We can't, we have to focus on sustainability. We are fortunate that Blizzard is bankrolling WCS in that regard but other events either have to diversify the games they cover (which is why ESL covers League and DOTA, because thats where the money is) or rebuild a sustainable model from the ground up. Clan Wars is an example of that. Clan Wars is running in the black. Barely (and only by virtue that I'm feeding it with my personal opportunity cost), but it's making a small profit for MLG and we planned it to work out that way. I don't honestly see much of a future for SC2 only offline events outside of WCS or smaller venue stuff like Red Bull Training Grounds, at least in the long-term right now.
This is how I see 2014 working.
WCS live events, operating solely due to Blizzards good will. Nobody is making money on this, no fucking way.
Multi-game live events such as Dreamhack, IEM and MLG, the Starcraft component of which will be smaller than other games, will probably pull its weight but could not exist on its own without the multi-game focus of the event. Even TakeTV is having to do this now with Hearthstone.
A very small number of premium SC2 live events in the best possible locations with high ticket prices. Only a few cities can really support this, most likely New York and Toronto, maybe LA at a push. Unlikely to succeed without significant backing from a large organisation such as Red Bull and absolutely unlikely to make a direct profit, would need to benefit the organisation in other ways.
Smallish regional events such as Lonestar Clash, driven primarily by volunteers. Nobody is making money here either.
Online events. Where the biggest potential lies to make something happen, but it won't be from Twitch ad revenue because the cpm and fillrate are too low and too many people adblock to make that even remotely viable. Leveraging sponsorships correctly, improving ROI through the use of Gameheart sponsor overlays, diversifying possible revenue streams through optional subscriptions and merchandise sales and being fucking careful about when you schedule because that can make the difference between breaking even and getting financially crushed, yeah, you can make this work, though the vast majority of them are still passion projects that are losing money all over the place.
On March 09 2014 12:58 Plansix wrote: TB dropping the truth. There is a reason that the majority of Dota 2 events start online with an offline finals. Events need to focus more on staying in the black and not wasting money trying to please every end of the community.
In the case of DOTA it's even more important because of the huge travel costs associated with flying 5 people per team around minimum.
DOTA2 started off right though, Valve built tools into the game to increase sponsor ROI and for teams to monetise and make some money by selling tickets and custom items/couriers. Their crowdfunding model for TI4 is savvy, they are innovating on all fronts and of course they have the benefit of just being a more popular game.
SC2 popped up just a little too early, I feel if it had come later it would have been able to learn a lot of lessons from the successes of LoL and DOTA2. We started off as the biggest eSport and then we got overtaken but wanted to try and maintain the same kind of size. We can't, we have to focus on sustainability. We are fortunate that Blizzard is bankrolling WCS in that regard but other events either have to diversify the games they cover (which is why ESL covers League and DOTA, because thats where the money is) or rebuild a sustainable model from the ground up. Clan Wars is an example of that. Clan Wars is running in the black. Barely, but it's making a small profit for MLG and we planned it to work out that way. I don't honestly see much of a future for SC2 only offline events outside of WCS or smaller venue stuff like Red Bull Training Grounds, at least in the long-term right now.
I always felt that offline events were to expensive unless they are coupled with some other large event, like a Pax or something else. It just to much money to be dropping. Look at the Monster Dota event. Its being run at South by Soutwest, which is perfect for events like that.
Everyone wants the GSL, but forgets that Korea is a very small country and all the players live within driving distance of the event. Dota 2 didn't try that and just said "fuck it, everything is online, because its how we pay the bills."
Well yes TB, but the (albeit unexpanded) point about the NA scene's issues being a bit more deep-rooted is one worth checking out. On healthy competition, I'm not an insider, and indeed from what I've heard the NASL (or indeed other orgs) running WCS don't make money from those. The issue with the WCS system was that organisations such as the NASL were really restricted over what they could do to compete, and that was at the behest of the owner of the IP.
While people refusing to pay for events and content is an issue, you're being over the top as to quite how much of the community are against that, unless you know the numbers which will give you an advantage over me in that regard. While I feel some elements of our community are appallingly stingy, this community also funded flights for the likes of MKP to attend foreign tournaments and do speak with their wallets (for the good) on occasion.
MLGs Arena problem was a decline in production standards, lack of studio atmosphere and really just being a big departure for the classic MLG weekend marathon tournament with all the atmosphere and hype it entailed, spoken as somebody who paid for the first two. They were introducing great features like first-person sidestreams that I would happily pay a lot for a whole weekend event, but sadly such innovations haven't caught on.
An oft not-touched about issue is the sheer expense of funding Korean flights to the events that they now dominate as well. I love to see them, but I don't see how it makes for a sustainable future if such overheads exist and the burden is on the broadcaster with WCS. This may be wrong, but from what I have read here and elsewhere the broadcaster has to pay out for those flights right?
On March 09 2014 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yes TB, but the (albeit unexpanded) point about the NA scene's issues being a bit more deep-rooted is one worth checking out. On healthy competition, I'm not an insider, and indeed from what I've heard the NASL (or indeed other orgs) running WCS don't make money from those. The issue with the WCS system was that organisations such as the NASL were really restricted over what they could do to compete, and that was at the behest of the owner of the IP.
While people refusing to pay for events and content is an issue, you're being over the top as to quite how much of the community are against that, unless you know the numbers which will give you an advantage over me in that regard. While I feel some elements of our community are appallingly stingy, this community also funded flights for the likes of MKP to attend foreign tournaments and do speak with their wallets (for the good) on occasion.
MLGs Arena problem was a decline in production standards, lack of studio atmosphere and really just being a big departure for the classic MLG weekend marathon tournament with all the atmosphere and hype it entailed, spoken as somebody who paid for the first two. They were introducing great features like first-person sidestreams that I would happily pay a lot for a whole weekend event, but sadly such innovations haven't caught on.
An oft not-touched about issue is the sheer expense of funding Korean flights to the events that they now dominate as well. I love to see them, but I don't see how it makes for a sustainable future if such overheads exist and the burden is on the broadcaster with WCS. This may be wrong, but from what I have read here and elsewhere the broadcaster has to pay out for those flights right?
MLG Arenas did not have a decline in production standards. The arena's had fantastic production. MLG was pumping out a 1080p stream for those, while their big events were 720p. The down time was minimal. They had FPOV for every player in every game. Pretty sure they were running instant replay as well. They had a fantastic multi stream viewer as well. The production for the arenas was some of the best stuff SC2 had seen at that point.
Russell and Jason and the guys were so kind. Back then I was associated with team Infinity Seven gaming. ALWAYS had a press pass ready first day, backstage interviews and chilling with the esports celebs and progamers were always top notch. Getting to meet oGsMC for the first time, Puma and many others was NASL 1. Hanging out with ttoss and temp0. The great pictures of July trucking it to the real reason we were at the location (Best Burger Joint around) and the *ahem* less glorious picture that got me on SotG.
You want chairs? They had chairs. I have never in any other event been able to stand astride that red carpet and slap the hand of my progamer idols on the way to matches that would go down in history. Those thundersticks that misspelled Aiur lol. Who can beat a 20 minute one on one conversation with (then) Anna Prosser? NASL it is sad to see you go, but thank you to everyone behind it for the fun-filled adventure. I couldn't imagine a better entry into my local LAN Esports than GHOSTCLAW & shindigs broadcasting NASL live games for all of us (UCI eSports hype)
The NASL began with Jinro against IdrA. Both have retired from the game. The world into which the NASL was born has always seemed like another era. Even more so now.
On March 09 2014 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yes TB, but the (albeit unexpanded) point about the NA scene's issues being a bit more deep-rooted is one worth checking out. On healthy competition, I'm not an insider, and indeed from what I've heard the NASL (or indeed other orgs) running WCS don't make money from those. The issue with the WCS system was that organisations such as the NASL were really restricted over what they could do to compete, and that was at the behest of the owner of the IP.
While people refusing to pay for events and content is an issue, you're being over the top as to quite how much of the community are against that, unless you know the numbers which will give you an advantage over me in that regard. While I feel some elements of our community are appallingly stingy, this community also funded flights for the likes of MKP to attend foreign tournaments and do speak with their wallets (for the good) on occasion.
MLGs Arena problem was a decline in production standards, lack of studio atmosphere and really just being a big departure for the classic MLG weekend marathon tournament with all the atmosphere and hype it entailed, spoken as somebody who paid for the first two. They were introducing great features like first-person sidestreams that I would happily pay a lot for a whole weekend event, but sadly such innovations haven't caught on.
An oft not-touched about issue is the sheer expense of funding Korean flights to the events that they now dominate as well. I love to see them, but I don't see how it makes for a sustainable future if such overheads exist and the burden is on the broadcaster with WCS. This may be wrong, but from what I have read here and elsewhere the broadcaster has to pay out for those flights right?
Well honestly I don't see how you could run WCS without having a profitable wing doing other games. It's obvious WCS does not provide enough funding to sustain your entire company. ESL is doing well because it's also doing League and DOTA, they also happen to have the lions share of the viewerbase for weekly SC2 content and the prime-time slot which makes them pretty much untouchable. GOM has been kept afloat with Blizzard money for god knows how long and has of course also been diversifying into other games such as World of Tanks, though for the longest time they had enough community good will behind them (plus you had no fucking choice really) to sell premium subscriptions at a hefty pricetag. Recently that has dropped off significantly due to service problems on their end and a lack of incentive to purchase due to WCS offering a lot more stuff for free anyway.
Numbers wise I have a few figures. Adblocking stand at anywhere between 40-50% on average and the problem is compounded by an inability to properly serve ads to a myriad of different regional demographics, leaving the US and UK as the best possible ad demographics, but the EU as a whole being the largest viewerbase for SC2. Twitch and Youtube CPM is all over the place, fill-rate is difficult to keep up to a high standard so even if you do have good CPM you get shafted in the eCPM stakes because maybe only 1 in 3 views is actually being monetised. Outside of that there's nothing I could publicly share about the operating costs of one of the larger organisations.
I'd like to point out that the community efforts to fund MKPs flight etc were years ago. I was around at that time and I do remember the excellent works of the community. I remember the SCReddit Invitational, funding flights, funding tournaments, all sorts of things, but that was a different time and that does not happen anymore. There is plenty of blame to go around, not least of which has to fall upon those people that resorted to crowdfunding and basically poisoned the well by producing a poor quality product. Sons of Starcraft is the obvious soft target there but even earlier efforts like Liquid Rising failed to produce real results. That said some blame must lie on the community, the witchhunt surrounding Pizza.gg was ridiculous, the ROOT house even more so, particularly when people accused ROOT of not producing the content they had promised when in reality they had and people just hadn't paid attention. The willingness of the community to shell out monetarily is at an all-time low and who can blame them? They're sullen, wistful for past glories and looking at a seemingly dim future. Then we have a small but very loud portion of that community that is fucking cancerous and preaches doom and gloom constantly while attacking the people who try and hold the scene up. Did you see that recent Reddit thread about Take accusing him of using pirated Windows software? I hoped that thread was just joking around and a few of the posts were but there were actual highly upvoted posts lambasting Take, slamming him for asking people not to use Adblock and then apparently using "pirated" software (of course there was no actual proof of that). Fucking cancerous witchhunters that are still loud and proud in our community. Those kind of people would have been crushed by popular opinion in the past but not these days, not in 2014. Oh no, the community crucifies its betters on a regular basis and trust me, anyone still in this scene and still contributing is doing out of raw fucking passion because god knows anything less than a burning love for this game would have any sane person saying "fuck this, these people are awful, why am I wasting my time here?". Reddit is the worst culprit due to a lack of moderation but it's present on TL too, it just gets hit with the banhammer a lot more frequently. That doesn't make the attitude go away, it just keeps it out of the public eye.
Anyway sorry about that, I wanted to get it off my chest. The scene is sick, it needs some serious chemo. My plan in 2014 is to go all-in on Starcraft with as many cool events as possible because that is the only thing at this point that will help. You cannot fight these people on forums and expect to win. Thankfully it works. Clan Wars gets a lot of positive attention on Reddit, the more cool stuff that happens in the scene, the less time people have to dwell on the negative. We gotta keep doing that. Onto your other points.
I think MLG Arenas were a viable format that got shot down way before their time and that was the communities fault for the most part. People just couldn't accept that no, they couldn't have everything for free. The model was solid, appeal to hardcore fans with top quality players, focus entirely on the games. Production values at those events were SIIICKKK, there was very little at the time that could compete. Solid camera work, well lit studios, 1080p streams, great audio, you name it. The only thing lacking was a crowd (and please, do not mistake atmosphere for production values, they are not the same thing). Those innovations like player streams were all aimed at the hardcore fan. I doubt it could work anymore, we have too much high quality SC2 for free, but back then getting that many top quality Koreans together outside of GSL just didn't happen that often, so there was interest. You're right, flights cost quite a bit. Minimum it costs Axiom $1,000 per player per season for WCS and that's just for flights. Depending on the time of year that can rise to $1,500 and that doesn't cover other costs such as food and taxi fares. Europe is generally worse, depends where the event is. That said, depending on the size of your arena event, you can make it work. Let's say you go 8 man round robin like one of the arenas did. $1k per flight, 3 days hotel, maybe 4 per person, you can probably get them to at least go 2 to a room, factor in taxi fares, catering, lets say $1.5k per player if you budget well. That's probably the lions share of your costs, though then you have to pay lets say, 3-4 camera operators, 2-4 casters, maybe a host if you're feeling fancy, 5-6 production crew, 12 hours a day for 2 days. If you kept your casting in-house for the most part and brought maybe 2 high profiles in to boost the ratings... you could keep that from spiralling out of control cost-wise, particularly if a lot of your guys are already salaried anyway and would be paid regardless. Then you have to think well, how many tickets do I need to sell to break even? Can I sell an additional sponsorship like a Dr Pepper Early access pregame show? Can I get anything additional out of my existing sponsors for this event or is it just including in what they give me every month?
Honestly? Those arena formats are probably some of the most sustainable you'll find outside of online only events. The travel costs are obviously high but it's not outside the realms of possibility to break even on those. I'd actually love for Adam to come in and tell us how much an arena cost to run. Honestly I can only guess, knowing how much those staff get paid, casters get paid and how much it costs to get a player from one side of the globe to the other and back, but seriously, we need to be looking at more stuff like that, more ways to directly monetise a product because the traditional ad monetisation ain't working anymore and even when it was it was never enough to begin with.
On March 09 2014 13:17 Wombat_NI wrote: Well yes TB, but the (albeit unexpanded) point about the NA scene's issues being a bit more deep-rooted is one worth checking out. On healthy competition, I'm not an insider, and indeed from what I've heard the NASL (or indeed other orgs) running WCS don't make money from those. The issue with the WCS system was that organisations such as the NASL were really restricted over what they could do to compete, and that was at the behest of the owner of the IP.
While people refusing to pay for events and content is an issue, you're being over the top as to quite how much of the community are against that, unless you know the numbers which will give you an advantage over me in that regard. While I feel some elements of our community are appallingly stingy, this community also funded flights for the likes of MKP to attend foreign tournaments and do speak with their wallets (for the good) on occasion.
MLGs Arena problem was a decline in production standards, lack of studio atmosphere and really just being a big departure for the classic MLG weekend marathon tournament with all the atmosphere and hype it entailed, spoken as somebody who paid for the first two. They were introducing great features like first-person sidestreams that I would happily pay a lot for a whole weekend event, but sadly such innovations haven't caught on.
An oft not-touched about issue is the sheer expense of funding Korean flights to the events that they now dominate as well. I love to see them, but I don't see how it makes for a sustainable future if such overheads exist and the burden is on the broadcaster with WCS. This may be wrong, but from what I have read here and elsewhere the broadcaster has to pay out for those flights right?
Well honestly I don't see how you could run WCS without having a profitable wing doing other games. It's obvious WCS does not provide enough funding to sustain your entire company. ESL is doing well because it's also doing League and DOTA, they also happen to have the lions share of the viewerbase for weekly SC2 content and the prime-time slot which makes them pretty much untouchable. GOM has been kept afloat with Blizzard money for god knows how long and has of course also been diversifying into other games such as World of Tanks, though for the longest time they had enough community good will behind them (plus you had no fucking choice really) to sell premium subscriptions at a hefty pricetag. Recently that has dropped off significantly due to service problems on their end and a lack of incentive to purchase due to WCS offering a lot more stuff for free anyway.
Numbers wise I have a few figures. Adblocking stand at anywhere between 40-50% on average and the problem is compounded by an inability to properly serve ads to a myriad of different regional demographics, leaving the US and UK as the best possible ad demographics, but the EU as a whole being the largest viewerbase for SC2. Twitch and Youtube CPM is all over the place, fill-rate is difficult to keep up to a high standard so even if you do have good CPM you get shafted in the eCPM stakes because maybe only 1 in 3 views is actually being monetised. Outside of that there's nothing I could publicly share about the operating costs of one of the larger organisations.
I'd like to point out that the community efforts to fund MKPs flight etc were years ago. I was around at that time and I do remember the excellent works of the community. I remember the SCReddit Invitational, funding flights, funding tournaments, all sorts of things, but that was a different time and that does not happen anymore. There is plenty of blame to go around, not least of which has to fall upon those people that resorted to crowdfunding and basically poisoned the well by producing a poor quality product. Sons of Starcraft is the obvious soft target there but even earlier efforts like Liquid Rising failed to produce real results. That said some blame must lie on the community, the witchhunt surrounding Pizza.gg was ridiculous, the ROOT house even more so, particularly when people accused ROOT of not producing the content they had promised when in reality they had and people just hadn't paid attention. The willingness of the community to shell out monetarily is at an all-time low and who can blame them? They're sullen, wistful for past glories and looking at a seemingly dim future. Then we have a small but very loud portion of that community that is fucking cancerous and preaches doom and gloom constantly while attacking the people who try and hold the scene up. Did you see that recent Reddit thread about Take accusing him of using pirated Windows software? I hoped that thread was just joking around and a few of the posts were but there were actual highly upvoted posts lambasting Take, slamming him for asking people not to use Adblock and then apparently using "pirated" software (of course there was no actual proof of that). Fucking cancerous witchhunters that are still loud and proud in our community. Those kind of people would have been crushed by popular opinion in the past but not these days, not in 2014. Oh no, the community crucifies its betters on a regular basis and trust me, anyone still in this scene and still contributing is doing out of raw fucking passion because god knows anything less than a burning love for this game would have any sane person saying "fuck this, these people are awful, why am I wasting my time here?". Reddit is the worst culprit due to a lack of moderation but it's present on TL too, it just gets hit with the banhammer a lot more frequently. That doesn't make the attitude go away, it just keeps it out of the public eye.
Anyway sorry about that, I wanted to get it off my chest. The scene is sick, it needs some serious chemo. My plan in 2014 is to go all-in on Starcraft with as many cool events as possible because that is the only thing at this point that will help. You cannot fight these people on forums and expect to win. Onto your other points.
I think MLG Arenas were a viable format that got shot down way before their time and that was the communities fault for the most part. People just couldn't accept that no, they couldn't have everything for free. The model was solid, appeal to hardcore fans with top quality players, focus entirely on the games. Production values at those events were SIIICKKK, there was very little at the time that could compete. Solid camera work, well lit studios, 1080p streams, great audio, you name it. The only thing lacking was a crowd (and please, do not mistake atmosphere for production values, they are not the same thing). Those innovations like player streams were all aimed at the hardcore fan. I doubt it could work anymore, we have too much high quality SC2 for free, but back then getting that many top quality Koreans together outside of GSL just didn't happen that often, so there was interest. You're right, flights cost quite a bit. Minimum it costs Axiom $1,000 per player per season for WCS and that's just for flights. Depending on the time of year that can rise to $1,500 and that doesn't cover other costs such as food and taxi fares. Europe is generally worse, depends where the event is. That said, depending on the size of your arena event, you can make it work. Let's say you go 8 man round robin like one of the arenas did. $1k per flight, 3 days hotel, maybe 4 per person, you can probably get them to at least go 2 to a room, factor in taxi fares, catering, lets say $1.5k per player if you budget well. That's probably the lions share of your costs, though then you have to pay lets say, 3-4 camera operators, 2-4 casters, maybe a host if you're feeling fancy, 5-6 production crew, 12 hours a day for 2 days. If you kept your casting in-house for the most part and brought maybe 2 high profiles in to boost the ratings... you could keep that from spiralling out of control cost-wise, particularly if a lot of your guys are already salaried anyway and would be paid regardless. Then you have to think well, how many tickets do I need to sell to break even? Can I sell an additional sponsorship like a Dr Pepper Early access pregame show? Can I get anything additional out of my existing sponsors for this event or is it just including in what they give me every month?
Honestly? Those arena formats are probably some of the most sustainable you'll find outside of online only events. The travel costs are obviously high but it's not outside the realms of possibility to break even on those. I'd actually love for Adam to come in and tell us how much an arena cost to run. Honestly I can only guess, knowing how much those staff get paid, casters get paid and how much it costs to get a player from one side of the globe to the other and back, but seriously, we need to be looking at more stuff like that, more ways to directly monetise a product because the traditional ad monetisation ain't working anymore and even when it was it was never enough to begin with.
What a fantastic post. I felt the same way on many of your points, I've never knew how to display them but you just did perfectly.
On March 09 2014 13:51 iloveav wrote: Unfortunatelly the games popularity has decresed to the extent that some organizations leave the scene since the bussiness plan is no longer valid.
It was never valid. When did these organisations ever get the required numbers to make it valid for weekly content? Oh yeah, fuckin never that's when. WCS numbers are HIGHER than NASL numbers were, than IPL numbers were. Do you remember what those numbers were like back then? 5k, 10k at best. WCS is regularly pulling in 40k concurrents for EU RO32, higher in the offline portions. NA is more like 15k but that's still better than what NASL Season 1-3 were getting. Even Proleague numbers are up, thanks I'd imagine in no small part to a change in commentary team. Proleague was regularly getting 5k concurrents last year, now it's closer to 15k-20k. We don't know what GOM used to get, but the numbers for this regular weekly content are actually really good compared to what the old regular weekly content used to get back in 2010-2012.
And it's still not enough. It never will be, not for SC2 alone. For that stuff to work you need to be supporting other games too, you need a SC2 division not a pure SC2 focus. That's the sad reality right now but thing is, it's always been the reality, we are just in a time when that is more obvious to the average viewer.
That's some high quality of response there. On the Arenas, in terms of the model I think you're bang on the money (pun intended), but the thing you lost with them was that intangible quality of atmosphere. As an Inter Milan supporter for whatever reason I remember a match they played in the Champions League vs Porto behind closed doors without the fans. It is only in the complete absence of that noise, that hustle and bustle that you realise quite how much that adds an intangible something to an event.
On the witchunting, jesus that is so on the money. I don't know about the scenes in other games of comparable size, but it does seem that it's a growing thing, this entitlement and amateur sleuthing/baseless conjecture, you only have to look about the entirety bullshit celebrity gossip and its endless encroachment to see this isn't an SC2. It does appear to me to be something about when a community hits a certain size threshold that the respected and the dedicated cannot, or don't have the energy to keep the cancerous elements in check.
It is pleasing to hear that, however modest that the Clanwars are doing well for you and MLG, as this is the sort of cool, overlapping kind of effort that is needed for freshness in the scene. For one, most players are on 'teams' that for the most part are essentially just a house under which individual players can prosper, albeit in a mutually beneficial way. Anything that emphasises more of the team aspect of things is good in my book.
Another interesting part is the inclusion of non-standard maps and indeed mods like Starbow. It gives exposure to them, it also lets high level players test them out and see what is worth perhaps other mapmakers including in their maps, without the onus being on the players to go out of their way on their own and take time out of tournament prep.
I can't help but feel annoyed that it always seems to be yourself making such initiatives. It's not that you aren't up to the task by any means, but where are the other people in the community with a similar clout to you in doing things like this that are different from the non standard tournament model? Homestory Cup is another event with a unique flavour to it, and it's pretty damn beloved of the fans. Shoutcraft NA was another one in which the base ideas and model I really thought had legs, I cannot remember the given reasons you yourself gave
Another thing that has always intrigued me is, how many legitimate professionals are involved in production of these kind of events? This is not to disparage the enthusiastic amateur, but a consistent area of contention is that to me the fans want a professional product, without paying for it in many instances, and expecting people to deliver that kind of quality for free? Both in terms of event production, but especially E-sports articles. I give TL a pass for this because it's a community site, built on that kind of relationship, but my friends will always link me if they see any kind of writing gig for anything E-sports related and I have yet to see a single one that is even offering a token bit of remuneration.
Anyway, yeah thanks for the in-depth response. I do sometimes wonder why you bother so much with the Starcraft scene, apart from your palpable enthusiasm for the game given all of the shit and negativity that swirls so cancerously, but I'm glad you do
I enjoy reading your articles, oh hugger of trees, keep it up.
Am still curious to know (like most of us) Why NASL stopped mid season, is it a case of lack of foresight or let's try and finish this season - but the finances weren't there. Did Mr bitters leaving to new grounds impact or compound their decision - or was his moving on because he knew NASL were not going to be able to continue.
TB, you are a breath of grown up, reality fill fresh air. I want everything you produce(when I have the time). Just keep doing what you are doing and forget the cancer of the community. They don't watch and only appear to doom and gloom.
PS: if you could get sponsored by a new monitor, that would be great. I'm looking to buy a new one and I could kill two birds with one stone.
I don't disagree with TB on most of what he said, but can we all please stuck trying to suck him off on every one of his posts jeez, one post acknowledging his accuracy is enough
On March 09 2014 14:00 Wombat_NI wrote: That's some high quality of response there. On the Arenas, in terms of the model I think you're bang on the money (pun intended), but the thing you lost with them was that intangible quality of atmosphere. As an Inter Milan supporter for whatever reason I remember a match they played in the Champions League vs Porto behind closed doors without the fans. It is only in the complete absence of that noise, that hustle and bustle that you realise quite how much that adds an intangible something to an event.
On the witchunting, jesus that is so on the money. I don't know about the scenes in other games of comparable size, but it does seem that it's a growing thing, this entitlement and amateur sleuthing/baseless conjecture, you only have to look about the entirety bullshit celebrity gossip and its endless encroachment to see this isn't an SC2. It does appear to me to be something about when a community hits a certain size threshold that the respected and the dedicated cannot, or don't have the energy to keep the cancerous elements in check.
It is pleasing to hear that, however modest that the Clanwars are doing well for you and MLG, as this is the sort of cool, overlapping kind of effort that is needed for freshness in the scene. For one, most players are on 'teams' that for the most part are essentially just a house under which individual players can prosper, albeit in a mutually beneficial way. Anything that emphasises more of the team aspect of things is good in my book.
Another interesting part is the inclusion of non-standard maps and indeed mods like Starbow. It gives exposure to them, it also lets high level players test them out and see what is worth perhaps other mapmakers including in their maps, without the onus being on the players to go out of their way on their own and take time out of tournament prep.
I can't help but feel annoyed that it always seems to be yourself making such initiatives. It's not that you aren't up to the task by any means, but where are the other people in the community with a similar clout to you in doing things like this that are different from the non standard tournament model? Homestory Cup is another event with a unique flavour to it, and it's pretty damn beloved of the fans. Shoutcraft NA was another one in which the base ideas and model I really thought had legs, I cannot remember the given reasons you yourself gave
Another thing that has always intrigued me is, how many legitimate professionals are involved in production of these kind of events? This is not to disparage the enthusiastic amateur, but a consistent area of contention is that to me the fans want a professional product, without paying for it in many instances, and expecting people to deliver that kind of quality for free? Both in terms of event production, but especially E-sports articles. I give TL a pass for this because it's a community site, built on that kind of relationship, but my friends will always link me if they see any kind of writing gig for anything E-sports related and I have yet to see a single one that is even offering a token bit of remuneration.
Anyway, yeah thanks for the in-depth response. I do sometimes wonder why you bother so much with the Starcraft scene, apart from your palpable enthusiasm for the game given all of the shit and negativity that swirls so cancerously, but I'm glad you do
I'm gonna be honest, I want to see Blizzard as well as organisations like ESL get on board and use Gameheart. We have an amazing tool that could strengthen the scene immeasurably by giving enhanced ROI to sponsors. Sure, we don't have the numbers League has, but we can make each viewer more valuable. Unfortunately it's not just their fault, people like ESL have their own sponsors who could get bitchy about seeing other sponsors on the screen. It's an infuriating position to be in because those tournaments soak up the majority of the viewership and often do very little to showcase the teams and the sponsors who keep them alive. You might say it's not their responsibility but none of us operate in a vacuum, the stronger the scene, the stronger we are. At least acknowledge the damn teams and put some effort into doing so.
Look at the WCS website. Do you see any team logos there? Nope. Far as WCS is concerned, teams don't exist. What about the broadcasts? Do you see team names on the scoreboard? Nope. Do you see team logos on the map though use of Gameheart? Nope. What about some kind of victory screen? Nope. The bracket? Nope. Any production assets at all? Nope. You'd be hard pressed to even know that teams existed through watching WCS EU, I can tell ya that. WCS in general suffers from an institutionalised lack of focus on the teams who keep this scene alive and it has a responsibility as the biggest regular tournament to recognise these organisations and give them the support they need.
Also please don't think it's just me doing stuff for the scene, there are TONS of people working really hard to make awesome events. Problem is a lot of them don't even get watched. Deimos eSports League gets like 300 concurrent at best. Breaking out NA gets more like 50. It's really damn difficult to get enough eyes on your project even if you try really hard.
Was that not just the first Arena, I swear they pulled things like the FPstreams for the subsequent ones? I paid for the first two, but my memory may be failing me on this one. Regardless it was to me, a step forward that was subsequently retracted but perhaps it just cost them too much to run those kind of things.
I am among the biggest whores when it comes to demanding FP views, and loved the cuts that WCS did in season finals. I've always felt they have the effect of illustrating the physicality of playing Starcraft 2 (especially when coupled with keyboard angles) that would impress even those who are E-sport skeptics.
@Totalbiscuit, has there ever been any numbercrunching on the value of individual viewers from the differing scenes? It's been a pet theory of mine (back up by precisely 0 actual data), mostly from just being a TL junkie that the demographics of SC2 and the MOBAs (LoL specifically) seem to vary quite a bit. There's quite a few here who are a bit older and in prestigious fields of work and I just naturally assume that their time is more limited in terms of time available to view tournaments etc, but perhaps their disposable income is higher than those who play, LoL for example. Now LoL makes up for that and then some of course with micro-transactions from a much broader playerbase.
Just anecdotal, but I know quite a few guys even within the NI scene who have bought high-end mechanical keyboards, mice and various other gaming peripherals, solely for Starcraft. Then again E-sports has always had the backing of those kind of companies and the tougher jump is to the lifestyle sponsors and the likes.
When it comes to my previous praise for you, perhaps I made it unclear but I meant more in terms of guys with that kind of pre-existing fanbase and influence doing things like that. Day9 did some similar things with the RedBull Training event or whatever it was called for example. I'll check out Deimos, and the folk at Basetrade put out some good content and get shamefully low viewercounts for how decent their output is.
On March 09 2014 14:18 Wombat_NI wrote: @Totalbiscuit, has there ever been any numbercrunching on the value of individual viewers from the differing scenes? It's been a pet theory of mine (back up by precisely 0 actual data), mostly from just being a TL junkie that the demographics of SC2 and the MOBAs (LoL specifically) seem to vary quite a bit. There's quite a few here who are a bit older and in prestigious fields of work and I just naturally assume that their time is more limited in terms of time available to view tournaments etc, but perhaps their disposable income is higher than those who play, LoL for example. Now LoL makes up for that and then some of course with micro-transactions from a much broader playerbase.
Just anecdotal, but I know quite a few guys even within the NI scene who have bought high-end mechanical keyboards, mice and various other gaming peripherals, solely for Starcraft. Then again E-sports has always had the backing of those kind of companies and the tougher jump is to the lifestyle sponsors and the likes.
When it comes to my previous praise for you, perhaps I made it unclear but I meant more in terms of guys with that kind of pre-existing fanbase and influence doing things like that. Day9 did some similar things with the RedBull Training event or whatever it was called for example. I'll check out Deimos, and the folk at Basetrade put out some good content and get shamefully low viewercounts for how decent their output is.
If those numbers have been crunched they haven't been released publicly. I don't doubt that big orgs like ESL and MLG do heavily analysis on that kind of stuff. Personally it's outside of the reach of regular content producers though. Even with enhanced analytics from Twitch, MLG.tv and Youtube, I can't get that kind of data, the best I can do is say "Hey, here's how many people watched, here's how long they watched for, here's how many times we displayed this branding". Good luck tracking it beyond that.
There aren't that many people with a pre-existing fanbase and there are none with a larger fanbase than myself (referring here to my viewerbase outside of SC2), so what can people do? Day9 runs his own company, is working on a game of his own, still does his dailies and casts, what more can he give? The kind of people with the time to give are also unfortunately the kind of people who do not have the following. Some are starting to slowly break though (Basetrade is the most recent example I think), but most just don't get anywhere. I'm fortunate that I am financially successful outside of SC2 and can afford to incur significant opportunity cost here. Most people can't do that. Also bear in mind that many of those left in the scene are now permanent employees of organisations such as ESL. They not only have limited time to work outside of their regular roles, but are also under contract to them with obligations and can't just run off and do whatever they want. So when you talk about "People like Day9", who exactly are you referring to? Who else? Husky? He's super busy with stuff IRL, he doesn't have time. He's still the biggest Youtube caster. Who else is prominent enough? Artosis? Too busy running several podcasts, being a Hearthstone progamer and casting GSL. I'm coming up short here, there are so few people who actually have the clout to make things happen independently. Best case scenario, Red Bull goes all-in on SC2 in 2014 with MrBitter heading it up, MLG continues support for SC2 events with gameon.gg, Clan Wars continues to be successful, ATC is renewed for a third season, Homestory Cup continues. Like really, we can hope to tread water and slowly grow with a boost when Legacy of the Void comes out, unless someone with an even bigger following than me sweeps in with a sudden passion for the sport.
Ah, the benefits of not being an outsider looking in I didn't wish my post to perhaps smack of the entitlement that I was decrying earlier, of course those aforementioned figures have other commitments in terms of time, or would be taking a financial hit to do something similar. I also assume there's a lot of contractual wrangling that would be required to do any kind of collaborative effort with the various organisations that you are all affiliated with.
RedBull are one to keep an eye on, especially given the huge amount of money they've stuck into so-called 'extreme sport's in the last decade or so. They both have the financial clout, but also a track record of utilising the kind of marketing machine that would be unprecedented in E-sports- with the exception of Samsung and the heyday of WCG, so that is something to follow with interest.
If SC2 actually dies as the hordes of redditors seem to delight in prophesising, I am kind of stuck with it as I'm a bit of an RTS freak and there's nothing inherently wrong with it occupying that niche I suppose. A community rid of the pitchforkers that seem to come when the fanbase hits a critical mass would be nice.
Anyhow, cheers for the responses I'm sure I'm not the only one who found some of the specifics informative and it'll definitely influence future posting on my part.
On March 09 2014 14:06 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm gonna be honest, I want to see Blizzard as well as organisations like ESL get on board and use Gameheart. We have an amazing tool that could strengthen the scene immeasurably by giving enhanced ROI to sponsors. Sure, we don't have the numbers League has,
the entire SC2 eSports scene is not worth Blizzard's time and effort. All these detailed plans about what they need to do ... can't be justified in terms of future expected profit. the entire RTS genre is in decline. Blizzard knows this.
the entire RTS genre is slowly sinking. the tastes and preferences of hard core strategy gamers are changing... and people are interacting with a PC less and less every year.
Blizzard can't stop this trend. They can only observe the trends and react to their consumers. Blizzard will put less time and effort into the RTS genre and more time and effort into F2P games, MOBAs, and other areas of entertainment that are growth areas.
RTS is not a growth area. It is a field of diminishing returns. Expect Blizzard is allocate fewer and fewer resources to the declining RTS genre.
Once you see things this way, there really is nothing to get worked up about. I like watching and playing SC2.. i can see its slowly in decline.. and i'm happy having fun with the game because i'm enjoying it for what IT IS.
i am not running around hoping and wishing for stuff that just ain't gonna happen.
i'm really happy with what Blizzard has done with my favourite genre of gaming (RTS). Considering the amount of profit there is to be made in the dying genre Blizzard has put forth a first class effort.
you complain about the community spewing venom.. you've got some venomous posts yourself.
that minor critique aside, TB, you do great work.
wanna see how to have an absolute blast playing a great game that has an extremely small community where no one makes a dime? here you go guys. http://www.nhl94online.com/
On March 09 2014 14:06 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm gonna be honest, I want to see Blizzard as well as organisations like ESL get on board and use Gameheart. We have an amazing tool that could strengthen the scene immeasurably by giving enhanced ROI to sponsors. Sure, we don't have the numbers League has,
the entire SC2 eSports scene is not worth Blizzard's time and effort. All these detailed plans about what they need to do ... can't be justified in terms of future expected profit. the entire RTS genre is in decline. Blizzard knows this.
the entire RTS genre is slowly sinking. the tastes and preferences of hard core strategy gamers are changing... and people are interacting with a PC less and less every year.
Blizzard can't stop this trend. They can only observe the trends and react to their consumers. Blizzard will put less time and effort into the RTS genre and more time and effort into F2P games, MOBAs, and other areas of entertainment that are growth areas.
RTS is not a growth area. It is a field of diminishing returns. Expect Blizzard is allocate fewer and fewer resources to the declining RTS genre.
Once you see things this way, there really is nothing to get worked up about. I like watching and playing SC2.. i can see its slowly in decline.. and i'm happy having fun with the game because i'm enjoying it for what IT IS.
i am not running around hoping and wishing for stuff that just ain't gonna happen.
i'm really happy with what Blizzard has done with my favourite genre of gaming (RTS). Considering the amount of profit there is to be made in the dying genre Blizzard has put forth a first class effort.
you complain about the community spewing venom.. you've got some venomous posts yourself.
that minor critique aside, TB, you do great work.
wanna see how to have an absolute blast playing a great game that has an extremely small community where no one makes a dime? here you go guys. http://www.nhl94online.com/
we're all having a fucking great time.
Hey what can I say, over 4 years of getting flames by the people I am trying to help has left me a little bitter. Shocking I know.
On March 09 2014 14:06 LongShot27 wrote: I don't disagree with TB on most of what he said, but can we all please stuck trying to suck him off on every one of his posts jeez, one post acknowledging his accuracy is enough
You are the cancer TB is talking about. Agreeing with someone and even adding incite isn't sucking off.
The vocal minority off ass hats won't shut up which means neither should the rest of us.
lamprey1, I wouldn't say RTS is a shrinking genre. The problem (if there is one) Is that it's aimed at the 1v1 crowd (sure 2v2 and so on are in SC2 of course, but it's mostly 1v1).
A lot of people who play games don't like the whole 1v1 one thing. If you or I loose a game it's because we weren't good enough. Period. We were outplayed, out macro'd or micro'd or whatever, the bottomline is you or I lost, no one else.
In team games like dota, if you loose a game there it's 'the team lost', and for many I feel that is more enjoyable and less stressful.
I feel for this simple reason a game like SC2 with it focus mainly on 1v1 is never going to have the appeal of games like dota, and that's not even touching on the whole learning curve of SC2, or even the in genre of the month - like fantasy for example.
On March 09 2014 14:06 LongShot27 wrote: I don't disagree with TB on most of what he said, but can we all please stuck trying to suck him off on every one of his posts jeez, one post acknowledging his accuracy is enough
hahahaha. well said. try calling them sycophants its a little more polite.
On March 09 2014 14:56 fruity. wrote: lamprey1, I wouldn't say RTS is a shrinking genre.
The # of top notch/"AAA" level RTS games has lowered to a trickle.
a) Ensemble Studios is gone. b) EA no longer has a studio making RTS games. c) Creative Assembly bullshits its customers. After an initial big sale total Rome2 has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. d) Gearbox bought the Homeworld IP for dirt cheap and look like they aer well on their way to doing nothing with it. I hope I'm wrong. e) Petroglyph, who started making End of Nations which has since been cancelled, is no longer making any RTS titles. Trion Worlds took over development of EoN and after a long while admitted they aer too busy working on an MMO to deal with EoN. f) Relic made CoH2 and the price of the game has plummeted in only a few months. Some days there are as many as 4,000 people playing it world wide. It's been 10 months since Relic released CoH2 and we have not heard 1 word about their next game? What are you willing to bet it ain't an RTS game.
All the publishers that forced these RTS-centric studios to either close or stop working on RTS games did so because no one is making any money developing RTS games.. much less broadcasting other people playing RTS games.
if the game makers themselves can't make a lot of money off of an RTS game.. well .. good fucking luck trying to make money broadcasting 2 or more guys playing against each other in an RTS game.
if i could make a wish Microsoft would restart Ensemble, EA would revive C&C and Gearbox would put more effort into the sequel to Homeworld than they put into Borderlands 3.
but that ain't ever gonna happen. so i just fire up SC2.. press f2, then click "Play" and have fun.
meh, most starcraft 2 business dudes (and players) were extremely short sighted. i think when ppl say business were *looking* for the quick buck, they meant things like tournaments flying in all them koreans in the early days just to get stream numbers in hopes of sponsor money. that backfired. i remember that post catz wrote during nasl season 1 about trying to grow the north american scene and people bashed him, all they wanted to watch were koreans. look where that got us. most koreans ditched the nasl in season 2. i also remember in year 1, idra and a lot of foreigner pros were actually complaining that there were too many tournaments to play. well, they got there wish. and i think 2gd mentioned in the early days casters were getting 10k+ figures to cast 3 day tournaments, and he was trying to get it down to the 2-3k mark because tournaments were spending money on casters than production and actually paying players. i guess its up to the community guys again. basetrade.tv, poisontv dudes. guys not in it for the money but just casting and holding small tournaments because they want to.
i don't think the game will die. it'll just become niche like most esports in NA. lets just hope there are guys like take and dreamhack dudes keeping the flame alive in europe.
On March 09 2014 13:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: Then we have a small but very loud portion of that community that is fucking cancerous and preaches doom and gloom constantly while attacking the people who try and hold the scene up. Did you see that recent Reddit thread about Take accusing him of using pirated Windows software? I hoped that thread was just joking around and a few of the posts were but there were actual highly upvoted posts lambasting Take, slamming him for asking people not to use Adblock and then apparently using "pirated" software (of course there was no actual proof of that). Fucking cancerous witchhunters that are still loud and proud in our community. Those kind of people would have been crushed by popular opinion in the past but not these days, not in 2014. Oh no, the community crucifies its betters on a regular basis and trust me, anyone still in this scene and still contributing is doing out of raw fucking passion because god knows anything less than a burning love for this game would have any sane person saying "fuck this, these people are awful, why am I wasting my time here?". Reddit is the worst culprit due to a lack of moderation but it's present on TL too, it just gets hit with the banhammer a lot more frequently. That doesn't make the attitude go away, it just keeps it out of the public eye.
Thank you for saying that. It needed to be said and to have a person of which everyone respects say it gives it a lot more significance. It's been bothering me for a long time. I'm so tired of all this negativity that we keep seeing. There was once a time where it was more reserved to Reddit (which I have purposely avoided for this exact reason) but a while ago it started to spread to TL, and it has remained. Between the witch-hunting people and those who seem to like attacking others at the drop of a hat, it seems like this type of activity is becoming far more prominent than ever before. All the positivity that used to be around is constantly being drowned out with complaints and weird double standards. People complain that there aren't enough streamers or tournaments but when these streams/tournaments happen, these same people refuse to give them money (either in the form of donations or viewing ads) and call them greedy when they ask people to do so. We saw this in the MLG Arena example discussed. People will whine and make demands constantly up until the point where something is asked of them, and suddenly they go silent, or worse they retaliate and go on with the whining. It's unbearable at times.
Even when it comes to streamers, the shift towards negativity has been quite noticeable. Even a year ago, the fastest growing and most popular streamers were those who were either insanely good at the game, were informative (Artosis' SC2 stream comes to mind) or were overall quite popular (Incontrol comes to mind for this. He still pulls decent numbers but back then he was getting 2500+ daily because he provided both interesting gameplay that he often explained, and people liked his personality since he seems like a standup guy. TLO is another solid example. You know just by how he conducts himself that he is a person that you could get along with. It is also very obvious that he is incredibly passionate about the game). Now, outside of the staple streamers who have always been popular, the people gaining the most viewers are the controversial types who are more popular for their (often incredibly negative) opinions (I'm sure we all know who I am talking about) while streamers who actually focus on the game itself (not drama or balance whining garbage) and are actually educational or informative are sitting in the low hundreds and maybe break 1000 on a good day.
For example, Nony's stream is probably one of the best resources there is for learning Protoss, and learning how Starcraft 2 works in general. He goes over his builds, explains the logic of what he does and what his opponent does, and breaks things down in a way that makes them understandable for anyone while still going into extreme depth. His analysis of every IEM Protoss replay was akin to a higher level version of Day9's show and everyone who watched loved it. Sadly, on a good day he will break 500 viewers unless it is the weekend, where he may break 1000. Contrast this with back when he used to get a thousand or more consistently. It is almost a shift in what viewers want to see and a bit of a demonstration of the short memory people have. Gone are the days where people wanted high level Starcraft and a bit of non-SC entertainment from a stream. Now it seems that being controversial and edgy will gain more people and that ridiculing others for some stupid reason (IE Avilo and his followers whining about Protoss constantly on stream and attacking people who play Protoss. People who have been around the scene since release know that he has always complained about Protoss, but now he has a following of people who don't know this, or don't care, so they are starting to believe something that the community used to simply shrug off as someone who liked to complain a lot) is something that is totally acceptable. In some cases the game almost seems secondary to the streamer's personality.
Then it goes all Fox News-like and the people who watch these streams/follow this negative mindset go and spread the vitriol from them into threads on TL and other places and all of the other posters have to spend more time just trying to handle all this negativity so that they can attempt to have a normal conversation without having to continually address these people trying to cause trouble at every corner or straw man the other posters into giving up on having a discussion. Likewise with the people who take any opportunity to complain about anything. Sane people will point out that expecting perfection when having to coordinate live events is unrealistic or that a caster who made a mistake was under a lot of pressure because they knew thousands were watching but it feels like anything that is said to try and quell this negativity falls on deaf ears. Anything other than absolute perfection from others is simply unacceptable to these people. Yet, often when asked what could be improved they don't respond because that would require them to put in more effort than simply complaining.
On March 09 2014 14:04 Plansix wrote: TB, you are a breath of grown up, reality fill fresh air. I want everything you produce(when I have the time). Just keep doing what you are doing and forget the cancer of the community. They don't watch and only appear to doom and gloom.
PS: if you could get sponsored by a new monitor, that would be great. I'm looking to buy a new one and I could kill two birds with one stone.
He creates fantastic content, I just wish random assholes didn't get in his head so much.
Sad to see NASL go, I really enjoyed watching them back in Season 1. Maybe it's because I'm in NA (it was a long time ago I forget if they broadcast in EU primetime too) but their broadcast schedule made it feel like a real sports league to me.
As someone who moved from SC2 fandom to Dota2 fandom, IMO the reason for the "fall" of SC2 in popularity is multi-faceted (and who knows, I'm probably completely wrong and the vast majority of people who slowly lost interest in SC2 like myself could feel completely different), with tournaments being one of the factors least responsible.
IMO, I think people like to cheer for people who are like them first and foremost. When you look at Dota2 compared to SC2, if there weren't teams like Na'Vi and Alliance and the Chinese curbstomped every EU team as hard as Koreans do to EU/NA players I feel the popularity of Dota2 as an eSport would be much lower, especially if the Chinese competed in EVERY SINGLE tournament of note. Call it what you want but when you can relate to someone you're more likely to have a vested interest in them and root for them. Why was (is?) Stephano so popular? He is a highly skilled player that the majority of foreigner viewership can identify with who was able to stand up to the (somewhat) nameless, faceless Koreans who were running roughshod over EU/NA.
Secondly, I think the inherent differences between SC2 and Dota2 make in-game monetization impossible. There are no single heros on units that you can turn into your own special snowflake in game while playing SC2, as opposed to Dota2 where almost every hero has a item set that you can customize the look of while playing them. Even if there were that ability, the view that is used while playing SC2 would make being able to see it nearly impossible; it would be like it didn't even exist. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to change this... maybe if Blizzard sold the ability to use special colors for your army while laddering? "For $0.99 your units will be allowed to use magenta instead of just red or blue". I doubt that would go over well. Who knows, maybe I'm just not very creative. And as much as people like to make fun of cosmetics (HATS!!!), tournaments being able to offer custom cosmetics as part of a bundle that people can buy to support their tournament adds extra incentive, and when people purchase those bundles it helps tournament offset costs, whether they pocket that money or use the money to enhance the prize pool and save some of the money the sponsor initially gave them. Either way it helps the organizer.
Thirdly, I think there is a massive problem with the SC2 community, whether it be reactionism (FUCK MLG!! FUCK EVERY CONTENT PRODUCER WHO DOESN'T BEND THE KNEE TO EVERY COMMUNITY WHIM), entitlement issues, etc... Now, I didn't follow BW whatsoever. But I joined TL during SC2 beta, and I remember the flamewars. The entitlement began there, though probably before. And it's still here, it's just changed from BW vs. SC2 (This is our game fuck David Kim for fucking it up, etc) to SC2 vs. everything else (Fuck LoL and Dota2 and MLG for dropping SC2 and picking up Dota2). The community has an inability to accept SC2 for what it is, and instead of being positive and moving forward would prefer to be negative and look at the past. Negativity breeds negativity and what was once just words on message boards manifests itself in loss of viewership and the community giving content producers (which literally fills the role of their mother breast feeding them as a toddler) shit for no apparent reason. All in all it's a pretty vicious cycle and I have no idea how it can be self corrected.
To add to that last point, another thing I've noticed is that the difference between the ways pros from Dota2 and SC2 talk about the game seems like it has an impact on the way the community feel about the game. I haven't seen many pro Dota2 players openly trash Dota2, if they every criticize it they do it in a joking manner. But with pillars of the community like IdrA, Destiny, etc. openly just flaming the shit out of the game and the dev team it's like they're giving the rest of the community to act the same. Obviously there are deeper issues at play here (Dota2 balance is much different than competitive SC2 balance, LDO), but I feel that if SC2 pros were positive 100% of the time the community would be markedly different (and of course I don't think that pros should or could be like that, just something to think about).
I had to get that off my chest, I've felt this way for a while but haven't had an avenue to vent.
@TotalBiscuit:
I read the post you made on your personal subreddit. I just wanted to let you know I respect you as a person and professional, even though I don't watch anything you do (all of my eSports viewing is Dota related nowadays), and even though I don't -- or rather, unable to -- appreciate what you do (again, Dota) I appreciate the fact that you do it. I'm sorry there are so many haters who feel compelled to let people know JUST HOW MUCH they hate you whenever they can. You're a better man than me, if I were in your position I would have left with both middle fingers in the air a long time ago. Also fuck reddit, it's the lowest common denominator cesspool of the internet.
On March 09 2014 14:06 LongShot27 wrote: I don't disagree with TB on most of what he said, but can we all please stuck trying to suck him off on every one of his posts jeez, one post acknowledging his accuracy is enough
On March 09 2014 14:06 LongShot27 wrote: I don't disagree with TB on most of what he said, but can we all please stuck trying to suck him off on every one of his posts jeez, one post acknowledging his accuracy is enough
You are the cancer TB is talking about. Agreeing with someone and even adding incite isn't sucking off.
The vocal minority off ass hats won't shut up which means neither should the rest of us.
It was a PC Bang actually. oGsGon drove me to Seoul, while having slept like 1 hour (I think he went to bed at like 11 am then I woke him around 12:30 to drive me to Seoul :D), then we couldn't find anywhere to park for like almost an hour.
We had to call one of those 'drive our car home' services (they are everywhere in seoul, dunno if they exist elsewhere) on the way back because Gon was afraid he'd fall asleep at the wheel if he tried to drive.
The NASL season 3 ending was sooooo amazing. The happiness, the crew dancing on stage with Stephano, music blasting through the venue, the crowd just getting in as well.
Ever since that ending I've always been disappointed when other tournaments end, most of the time they shove some trophy in the players hand and then they try to shut off the stream as quick as possible because it's late and they are tired. Understandable, but I'm always left with a feeling of 'was this what is was all for' 'why broadcast 14 hours to end like this'?. NASL S3 ending will always be the standard to beat!
On March 09 2014 13:51 iloveav wrote: Unfortunatelly the games popularity has decresed to the extent that some organizations leave the scene since the bussiness plan is no longer valid.
It was never valid. When did these organisations ever get the required numbers to make it valid for weekly content? Oh yeah, fuckin never that's when. WCS numbers are HIGHER than NASL numbers were, than IPL numbers were. Do you remember what those numbers were like back then? 5k, 10k at best. WCS is regularly pulling in 40k concurrents for EU RO32, higher in the offline portions. NA is more like 15k but that's still better than what NASL Season 1-3 were getting. Even Proleague numbers are up, thanks I'd imagine in no small part to a change in commentary team. Proleague was regularly getting 5k concurrents last year, now it's closer to 15k-20k. We don't know what GOM used to get, but the numbers for this regular weekly content are actually really good compared to what the old regular weekly content used to get back in 2010-2012.
And it's still not enough. It never will be, not for SC2 alone. For that stuff to work you need to be supporting other games too, you need a SC2 division not a pure SC2 focus. That's the sad reality right now but thing is, it's always been the reality, we are just in a time when that is more obvious to the average viewer.
It's unreal that more people don't get this, especially considering how it's been trumpeted with commendable volume for about three years now. Starcraft 2 on its own IS NOT PROFITABLE. End of story. The time of huge SC2 offline events outside of WCS is over and will not be coming back.
We can either deal with it and emotionally and intellectually prepare ourselves for some serious tightening of various belts, or we can react with the inane "WHY?!" posts when something like the recent NASL collapse happens. It was always going to happen, it was inevitable, a case of simple mathematics. The SC2 scene was completely bloated with insanely unrealistic investments and expectations, this is the backlash that was set in motion years ago.
I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Bollocks frankly. Early GSL was shit, early tournaments in general were shit. The meta was underdeveloped, things were imbalanced as hell, far more so than they are now, there were fewer viable options, the maps sucked, PvP was an utter joke. Who can forget of course the 6+ months of ZvZ finals resulting from Broodlord/Infestor being monumentally broken.
On March 09 2014 17:18 Powerpill wrote: So long Nasal (how I pronounce it =P ) Remember watching some good games, thanks for the memories.
haha yea, don't forget the "controversy" about the name of the league. How some people thought N-A-S-L was stupid name because people will pronounce is nasal, and others going "well nobody pronounces GSL/MSL/OSL gissle or mizzle or ossle no?" I stopped paying attention to sc2 scenes in general cerca 2nd half of 2011, but I remember all the problems that plagued NASL during S1. The name, The audio problem, The audition videos, The "should NASL invite koreans or not", The iNcontroL's announcement of announcement. People not showing up for matches (specifically remember Painuser not showing up for his matches against Boxer and he was subsequently burned at the stake in forums). Hype, skepticism, expectation, hope. Even though I am not emotionally attached to NASL, it is kind of saddening to see it go since I paid a lot of attention to it during it's birth.
It would be interesting to see if Red Bull want to take up the WCS NA position. It would definitely solidfy themselves in the scene but perhaps they want to do their own thing like they are already doing. Then again ESL do WCS and their own thing.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Bollocks frankly. Early GSL was shit, early tournaments in general were shit. The meta was underdeveloped, things were imbalanced as hell, far more so than they are now, there were fewer viable options, the maps sucked, PvP was an utter joke. Who can forget of course the 6+ months of ZvZ finals resulting from Broodlord/Infestor being monumentally broken.
A huge part of why viewers would want to stay up to watch the game is BECAUSE of the things you've enumerated above. Its the excitement of figuring shit out that attracted many people. And now that the metagame and utilities have settled, the gameplay stagnated.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Don't worry. In another 2 years you'll be complaining about DotA 2 as well. Plenty of people whine about how stale/boring the games get already.
People get bored of things after several years. That's just how games work.
This has been a very eye opening thread to me in regards to what it takes to put on a tournament for SC2. I knew a lot went into it but I never really grasped how there was little to no return on the investment taken in it.
Now, in my opinion (this just coming from an amateur broadcast nobody) is that inherently, SC2 has quite a bit of downtime with little to nothing to fill the space. Where as in most other sports broadcasts, you get 1 to 5 minute commercial breaks, because of the medium that eSports is shown to the masses, that isn't a viable option as pointed out by TB. You either get people adblocking the ads or having no way of playing different ads for different regions because it is all being broadcast out of one central location to everywhere instead of affiliates that have control over the air space like sportscasts do.
I think that the format is also a bit harsh on people who aren't hardcore fans. I, for one, would love to be able to watch 12 hours of a tournament stream in a day but I work 60 hours a week and have a fiance that would rather not see me sitting in front of a computer screen watching SC all day (she still watches it with me bless her heart) Think about poker tournaments in this respect. You never see a poker tournament where they focus on one table and show you absolutely every hand being played, even the boring everybody folds hands. No, they cut to only the hands where some action is being shown.
To relate this to SC2, how much of the games is literally just watching the same build happen 40 times in a tournament. 9 pylon/13gate, 15pool/14hatch, 13rax over and over again and again. Very little variation comes from the beginning of the game (you get the occasional cannon rush, 9pool, proxy reaper builds but very rarely and if it does, its met with vitriol "fucking cheesers!") This does not appeal to a broader audience. It appeals to the hardcore SC2 fan but they are becoming fewer in numbers here in NA. Again, how can we keep the attention of an audience for 12 to 18 hours of a day. It is literally impossible.
I think what SC2 and eSports in general needs a shot of is actual editing. Of course, this takes money, time and actual professionals to pull it off. SC2 can never be poker and will never have the financial backing poker does but why can't there be a stylized recap show that shows the best of what happened at a particular tournament. Combine 12 hours of content and get it down to an hour or two? Again, this is just hypothetical and can never happen without both community and sponsor support. What hurts is there is no tv station out there that is going to run an hour long anything dedicated to an eSport and we already know the problem inherent with broadcasting over Twitch with adblock. So, I don't know how anybody could get this to work but this is what I want when I think of the future of SC2 and eSports in general. I, myself, am a busy person and having something that I could digest in bite sizes of an hour would be awesome! I miss so many tournaments because I have no free time that if I could watch a show (with lots of ads and sponsor messages "This segment brought to you by Dr. Pepper, 23 flavors of awesomeness!) that recaps all the amazing highlights of a tournament without me having to go through 1000+ posts on the tournament or sit through VODs of the matches to see what matches were worth watching and what was crap, then I'd be a happy SC2 fan.
Again, this is all opinion and probably already thought of and executed a hundred times over but I love this sport and want to see it flourish. Seeing things like NASL folding just made my heart hurt.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Don't worry. In another 2 years you'll be complaining about DotA 2 as well. Plenty of people whine about how stale/boring the games get already.
People get bored of things after several years. That's just how games work.
I do wish to point out that dota is a significantly different game from patch to patch.
I miss NASL and I would love to hear the story behind the scenes surrounding the organization, from start to finish. It is unfortunate that they have to go out this way.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Don't worry. In another 2 years you'll be complaining about DotA 2 as well. Plenty of people whine about how stale/boring the games get already.
People get bored of things after several years. That's just how games work.
I do wish to point out that dota is a significantly different game from patch to patch.
I miss NASL and I would love to hear the story behind the scenes surrounding the organization, from start to finish. It is unfortunate that they have to go out this way.
How different the game gets doesn't matter. Some portion of the population will leave or claim it is boring, because they get bored. It happens to everyone and everything.
I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
NASL ran for two years on its own funding. I know people on TL have a bloated sense of scale, but that definitely qualifies as "financially set for some time ahead".
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
Hey. At the very beginning, InControl could have been absolutely right. At that time. Several years ago. It's not like Geoff was on stream last week saying "Guys, guys. It's fine. There is tons of money to keep this thing running." At the start, it probably was set financially to run for some time. And that time ran out.
I appreciate NASL for bringing in unconventional sponsors. Non-tech, non-gaming companies - and I appreciate those sponsors for taking a chance. In the long run it didn't work, but they were trying. (I got a great response to the letter I wrote to LA Bite thanking them for taking that chance, from the head of the company. Even though I told them outright I couldn't possibly use their service for geographical reasons.)
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
NASL ran for two years on its own funding. I know people on TL have a bloated sense of scale, but that definitely qualifies as "financially set for some time ahead".
Two years is a long time to be running on venture capital. When Incontrol said that, they may have likely be set for what he felt was the "near future." It is a super subjective phrase.
honestly, despite the shit talk of the foreign scene and how korea is everything in starcraft, nasl was the only one with the quality of production that fits the modern standards with how esports is viewed with all the big MOBAs and stuff. I've been HUGE on starcraft for so long, but I just don't feel it anymore (for a lot of reasons). I was very impressed at how the NASL ran and am very sad to hear this T_T.
On March 09 2014 23:26 LA_Morello wrote: I see so many people blaming organizations and the community. Am I the only one who feels that SC2 is the problem?
If the game was as interesting to watch as it was years ago, the number of viewers wouldn't drastically drop in mid 2012~2013. Imo, HotS isn't so fun to play. Playing vs Terran in Lost Temple years ago was imbalanced, but holy shit that was so fun.
I migrate from SC2 to Dota 2 mostly because the game isn't as fun as it was anymore.
Bollocks frankly. Early GSL was shit, early tournaments in general were shit. The meta was underdeveloped, things were imbalanced as hell, far more so than they are now, there were fewer viable options, the maps sucked, PvP was an utter joke. Who can forget of course the 6+ months of ZvZ finals resulting from Broodlord/Infestor being monumentally broken.
A huge part of why viewers would want to stay up to watch the game is BECAUSE of the things you've enumerated above. Its the excitement of figuring shit out that attracted many people. And now that the metagame and utilities have settled, the gameplay stagnated.
I think a big part of it is the fact people like to complain a lot and its not a very inviting atmosphere to new watchers to go to R/SC for example (reddit is way easier to find than TL) and see all the hate and vitriol there.
Also, the depth of the current strategies is much much better than ever and even though the meta is "figured out" the depth of the games is fantastic. Its very rare that a snore fest Firecake Swarmhost game happens and while they happen, its still not as bad to watch as the WoL games.
Another issue is that SC2 is hard, people don't start playing it because its hard, and the fact everyone has been getting better over time, it makes entering the game even harder.
Though I do wish they would fix the league percentages on the lower end of the scale, the quicker someone can get out of bronze the more motivating it is to keep playing.
It's interesting - in 2011 & 2012 european tours - DreamHack and IEM - felt like poorer siblings of MLG, IPL and NASL. Then MLG received WCS AM and run away from SC2 (although they are coming back), IPL was shut down by IGN and now NASL is leaving SC2. At the same time DH and IEM is growing and improving. Can't help but notice that it looks like DH and IEM took much more reasonable approach to SC2 tournament organizing.
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
NASL ran for two years on its own funding. I know people on TL have a bloated sense of scale, but that definitely qualifies as "financially set for some time ahead".
Maybe I am dumb, but I still don't understand, what is "own funding". Where did the money come from? It was just put together by people who ran/own the thing from their pockets? If yes, that's kind of impressive comitment!
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
NASL ran for two years on its own funding. I know people on TL have a bloated sense of scale, but that definitely qualifies as "financially set for some time ahead".
Maybe I am dumb, but I still don't understand, what is "own funding". Where did the money come from? It was just put together by people who ran/own the thing from their pockets? If yes, that's kind of impressive comitment!
Afaik there is/was a private investor behind it. I think people still overestimate how "profitable" esports is. Because it's not at all. Riot isn't making money from it, Valve isn't, Blizzard isn't and there are practically no tournament organizers who do. Esports has always been about attracting enough sponsors to be able to continue to run these events, never about actually making a fortune from this. Game developers obviously mainly see it as a marketing investment and those are never really meant to be profitable anyway. Tournament organizers simply try to attract enough sponsor cash to be able to continue to run this. There is a reason why MLG needs a shit ton of investment cash, why ESL needs that Intel paycheck, why Dreamhack has very few full time employees and makes most of their money from being a giant LAN and why GOM was probably more than happy to let Blizzard pay for GSL. OGN may be the one exception here, but as they are a real TV channel they do have way more ways to actually make cash and use that to pay for their eSports events. This industry was build by people who love the games and the competition enough to run tournaments, often while loosing tons of cash and that hasn't really fundamentally changed. I guess the guy behind NASL just ran out of cash, though I'd much rather have someone like Thorin dig up the hole story and write us a nice article about it.
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
People usually make up lies about state of things and disguise it up when things are going sour.
For example: STX president said that they'll keep sponsoring the team but it end up being the total opposite.
NASL ran for two years on its own funding. I know people on TL have a bloated sense of scale, but that definitely qualifies as "financially set for some time ahead".
Maybe I am dumb, but I still don't understand, what is "own funding". Where did the money come from? It was just put together by people who ran/own the thing from their pockets? If yes, that's kind of impressive comitment!
Afaik there is/was a private investor behind it. I think people still overestimate how "profitable" esports is. Because it's not at all. Riot isn't making money from it, Valve isn't, Blizzard isn't and there are practically no tournament organizers who do. Esports has always been about attracting enough sponsors to be able to continue to run these events, never about actually making a fortune from this. Game developers obviously mainly see it as a marketing investment and those are never really meant to be profitable anyway. Tournament organizers simply try to attract enough sponsor cash to be able to continue to run this. There is a reason why MLG needs a shit ton of investment cash, why ESL needs that Intel paycheck, why Dreamhack has very few full time employees and makes most of their money from being a giant LAN and why GOM was probably more than happy to let Blizzard pay for GSL. OGN may be the one exception here, but as they are a real TV channel they do have way more ways to actually make cash and use that to pay for their eSports events. This industry was build by people who love the games and the competition enough to run tournaments, often while loosing tons of cash and that hasn't really fundamentally changed. I guess the guy behind NASL just ran out of cash, though I'd much rather have someone like Thorin dig up the hole story and write us a nice article about it.
If it's just a guy, why does he hide? I mean, if he really funded it with his own money, with such an uncertain return, evryone should love him to death, right?
On March 10 2014 18:05 nimdil wrote: It's interesting - in 2011 & 2012 european tours - DreamHack and IEM - felt like poorer siblings of MLG, IPL and NASL. Then MLG received WCS AM and run away from SC2 (although they are coming back), IPL was shut down by IGN and now NASL is leaving SC2. At the same time DH and IEM is growing and improving. Can't help but notice that it looks like DH and IEM took much more reasonable approach to SC2 tournament organizing.
mlg always had the smallest prize pools, but they always flew in the big name koreans. (i guess they realized its too expensive) ipl shut themselves down, ign bought the scraps. ign didn't even pay the winners of their last tournament until ppl started calling them out. I personally, was blasting their twitter and message boards, the vestibule, about them not paying their tournaments. fuck it, it is what it is. esports just have a harder time in NA. maybe its due to the social climate. teams have to pay for healthcare, college education is more expensive here. most promising progamers want to travel, so they ditch NA teams for Eu ones (just look at roots former roster). NA just sucks for esports.
On March 10 2014 18:05 nimdil wrote: It's interesting - in 2011 & 2012 european tours - DreamHack and IEM - felt like poorer siblings of MLG, IPL and NASL. Then MLG received WCS AM and run away from SC2 (although they are coming back), IPL was shut down by IGN and now NASL is leaving SC2. At the same time DH and IEM is growing and improving. Can't help but notice that it looks like DH and IEM took much more reasonable approach to SC2 tournament organizing.
mlg always had the smallest prize pools, but they always flew in the big name koreans. (i guess they realized its too expensive) ipl shut themselves down, ign bought the scraps. ign didn't even pay the winners of their last tournament until ppl started calling them out. I personally, was blasting their twitter and message boards, the vestibule, about them not paying their tournaments. fuck it, it is what it is. esports just have a harder time in NA. maybe its due to the social climate. teams have to pay for healthcare, college education is more expensive here. most promising progamers want to travel, so they ditch NA teams for Eu ones (just look at roots former roster). NA just sucks for esports.
I doubt there is a single NA team that offers healthcare for its players. I imagine every NA team has their players as independent contractors and as a result is not required to pay for any of that stuff. I'd love to be proven wrong on that one though.
On March 10 2014 11:11 opisska wrote: I remember at the beginning of NASL, InControl would infintely repeat how the league is financially set for some time ahead and how everything is gonna be great and funded, but always refused to comment on whose money that acutally is ... and then the league itself turned to be somewhat terrible, so I stopped following it. But that I was reminede of it, I really want to now: was it ever revelaed, who payed for the whole thing?
they don't really owe it to us.. to tell us where the money is coming from.
now with all the data in...
ironically, NASL had a better track record of paying its prize money than every "big league" except MLG and GSL.
at times NASL seemed so disorganized on the surface that i thought payment would be a big issue. many people agreed with me. we were all dead wrong. NASL always paid its bills.
NASL had its ups and downs... its pretty clear it never made a profit... its also clear a lot of good people worked very hard to entertain us all.
EPT
I miss cluth and frodan already T___T
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