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Russian Federation125 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:58 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:46 dargul wrote:On February 08 2014 12:05 plogamer wrote:
Instead, the most powerful templar follow-up after holding off blink stalker is nerfed with a buff to ghosts.
I think blink stalker all-ins have been nerfed indirectly. Terran can just drop a ghost academy after holding a blink all-in, and queue ghosts the moment they see templar tech. The fact that ghosts don't need energy upgrade is pretty good to deal with that follow up. Ghost buff did nothing. Even without energy upgrade ghost will have emp when he arrive to the protoss base. And 1 additional snipe per ghost mean nothing. It is the same useless buff as it was with 10% tank attack speed buff. I even rechecked bombers scv pull allin with ghosts - he didn't do energy upgrade for this... without upgrade ghost will be better in defence... but who will build ghosts for defence? don't know may be kim think that terran suppose tp build ghosts instead of 5bunkkers to defend blink allin? Stop saying any buff or nerf "does nothing". You know you're wrong.
ok if i'm wrong show me exanple where this shity +10% tank attack sppeed buff affected the result of the game?
People compared tanks with attack speed 3 and 2.7 - it doesn't change anything simply because fight is over in 3 may be 4 tank shots. And those buff gave tank 1 more shot each 30sec wow how awsome. Now i just need to wait when blizz fix balance and fights will last long enough...
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On February 08 2014 22:11 dargul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:58 S1eth wrote:On February 08 2014 21:46 dargul wrote:On February 08 2014 12:05 plogamer wrote:
Instead, the most powerful templar follow-up after holding off blink stalker is nerfed with a buff to ghosts.
I think blink stalker all-ins have been nerfed indirectly. Terran can just drop a ghost academy after holding a blink all-in, and queue ghosts the moment they see templar tech. The fact that ghosts don't need energy upgrade is pretty good to deal with that follow up. Ghost buff did nothing. Even without energy upgrade ghost will have emp when he arrive to the protoss base. And 1 additional snipe per ghost mean nothing. It is the same useless buff as it was with 10% tank attack speed buff. I even rechecked bombers scv pull allin with ghosts - he didn't do energy upgrade for this... without upgrade ghost will be better in defence... but who will build ghosts for defence? don't know may be kim think that terran suppose tp build ghosts instead of 5bunkkers to defend blink allin? Stop saying any buff or nerf "does nothing". You know you're wrong. ok if i'm wrong show me exanple where this shity +10% tank attack sppeed buff affected the result of the game? People compared tanks with attack speed 3 and 2.7 - it doesn't change anything simply because fight is over in 3 may be 4 tank shots. And those buff gave tank 1 more shot each 30sec wow how awsome. Now i just need to wait when blizz fix balance and fights will last long enough...
The difference is also in how fast the tank shot happens.
Just for comparison, A marine shoots 6 damage every .86 seconds IIRC.
Now let's change marines to do 45 damage after 8.7 seconds.
Now, Marines usually won't deal any damage at all.
As for the Ghost buff, we can't say after half a week whether it did anything or not.
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It's an 11% attack speed increase, So you'll occasionally see tanks getting an additional shot off before they die/their targets leave their range. You can't deny that it did change something. You can usually count on your tanks to be around 11% more effective.
And showing a game that was solely decided by an 11% tank buff? You can't be serious.
a) That patch is not supposed to win you games on its own
b) It's already (nearly) impossible to pinpoint when an Oracle wins games because of its speedbuff, and that's when there's only 1 Oracle on the field. Try counting shots for ~12-20 tanks.
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Actually it's easier to see how oracles are better. There is an impressive number of occurrences where an oracle gets away with sub-20 hp. This means that before the patch either that oracle was dead, or the Protoss player would have had to move it away earlier, so maybe he had to play more carefully.
Plus, before patch, oracle speed was the same as stim marines, and with low acceleration this meant you could catch an oracle just starting to move. Now speed and acceleration are way higher so it's nearly impossible to lose an oracle to stim marines.
Not nearly as unremarkable as the tank buff.
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The thing about the tank buff isn't necessarily how much more damage the tank will do, its how much less damage will be done to you because of the tank buff. It very easily can be the difference between that roach, stalker, or marauder getting off one more volley or not and that is where it is amazing. The tank may only fire 4 shots in a battle either way, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't more effective (by killing faster, reducing the total number of incoming damage).
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We feel Warp Gates are very race defining for Protoss. It's a completely different way to produce units. Because we want every race to feel unique and asymmetric, we like the design of Warp Gates.
Warp Gates were problematic in the past when 1 base or 2 base all ins were too common. We've addressed this a lot in past years.
We've talked about our stance on Force Fields in the past, and it still remains unchanged. We feel like we get a lot of feedback from forums saying there's no micro anyone can do against Force Fields. However, we just don't see this. For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible? Terran players picking off units on one side of Force Fields and dropping them on the more favorable side is another good example. We believe Force Fields are a very unique ability that sometimes feel there was nothing you could do, but that is okay because there are varying degrees of successes and failures. That is just StarCraft: If DTs come in when I have no detectors I'm dead, but that doesn't mean there was nothing I could have done.
a majority of the players (including pros) agree on the fact that WG and forcefields are a bad and boring way to design a race, his attitude towards it really makes me sad.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 08 2014 23:26 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +
We feel Warp Gates are very race defining for Protoss. It's a completely different way to produce units. Because we want every race to feel unique and asymmetric, we like the design of Warp Gates.
Warp Gates were problematic in the past when 1 base or 2 base all ins were too common. We've addressed this a lot in past years.
We've talked about our stance on Force Fields in the past, and it still remains unchanged. We feel like we get a lot of feedback from forums saying there's no micro anyone can do against Force Fields. However, we just don't see this. For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible? Terran players picking off units on one side of Force Fields and dropping them on the more favorable side is another good example. We believe Force Fields are a very unique ability that sometimes feel there was nothing you could do, but that is okay because there are varying degrees of successes and failures. That is just StarCraft: If DTs come in when I have no detectors I'm dead, but that doesn't mean there was nothing I could have done.
a majority of the players (including pros) agree on the fact that WG and forcefields are a bad and boring way to design a race, his attitude towards it really makes me sad.
Oh really? Let's poll every single player who plays the game in its entirety and every pro and ask their opinion.
You have no idea what the data looks like, a lot of pros don't even discuss design at all, and believe it or not, there are a crap ton of players that don't hang out on reddit or team liquid.
As for people discussing the tank buff and whether it did anything or not: it's not just whether it got an extra shot off, but the fact that each follow up shot comes faster means it deals it's damage quicker, which has the result of killing the enemy units slightly faster. This means those enemy units might get off fewer attacks on your own stuff, meaning the rest of your units live longer to deal more damage. End result being that the tank buff means you take less damage in battle. It's a non-obvious buff but it absolutely is a buff.
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Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D:
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Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D:
It just so happens they are one in the same 
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 09 2014 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D:
if you're true SC2 fan, DK should David Kim for you. you can name it differently:
- Kim
- DKim
- Dayvie
- "best balance designer in the world"
- Dakim
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Oh really? Let's poll every single player who plays the game in its entirety and every pro and ask their opinion.
You have no idea what the data looks like, a lot of pros don't even discuss design at all, and believe it or not, there are a crap ton of players that don't hang out on reddit or team liquid.
As for people discussing the tank buff and whether it did anything or not: it's not just whether it got an extra shot off, but the fact that each follow up shot comes faster means it deals it's damage quicker, which has the result of killing the enemy units slightly faster. This means those enemy units might get off fewer attacks on your own stuff, meaning the rest of your units live longer to deal more damage. End result being that the tank buff means you take less damage in battle. It's a non-obvious buff but it absolutely is a buff.
The Tank buff was a HUGE buff for the match up it was already used in.... made 2 Tanks have the power of 3 in a small skirmish which actually made me CHange my TvT around completely... but in TvZ and TvP its useless because oof the units that ez counter it that is actually ez for both races to get..... and TvP has A CRAP TON of early weakness that can be insanely exploited worse than Bio Openers
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On February 09 2014 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D:
I actually think about Death Knight every time i hear DK, must be my WC3 time..
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It always kills me when so many people complain about balance in such a negative way. Is why I generally read and rarely post. I mean there isnt anything wrong with contributing a worthwhile opinion and helping make our game better. However, these forums are always so full of idiots and their one-liners. Bronze league bitches who throw "pro players say this and that" out there when they don't even know what their talking about. You're so obvious. . .
Yes, sc2 has balance issues. Yes it will be an ongoing discussion and the game will grow throughout it's lifespan. I will say this though, starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history since chess. (chess has many small imbalances as well) Starcraft 2 is absolutely the greatest game in the world. It's people like you guys that stir the pot and spread negativity. Negativity destroys communities and without community, we have no game.
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On February 09 2014 01:32 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D: I actually think about Death Knight every time i hear DK, must be my WC3 time..
I usually do DK, sorry, will try to limit it :D
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On February 09 2014 01:46 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 01:32 BlackCompany wrote:On February 09 2014 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
Please don't use DK as abbreviation for David Kim, am I really the only guy who keeps reading it as Donkey Kong??? D: I actually think about Death Knight every time i hear DK, must be my WC3 time.. I usually do DK, sorry, will try to limit it :D
Haha, dont worry! I always read "Death Knight" but then i think: wait, that doesnt make sense! and re-read the sentence. Then i see you are talking about David Kim 
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On February 09 2014 01:42 Axxis wrote:
It always kills me when so many people complain about balance in such a negative way. Is why I generally read and rarely post. I mean there isnt anything wrong with contributing a worthwhile opinion and helping make our game better. However, these forums are always so full of idiots and their one-liners. Bronze league bitches who throw "pro players say this and that" out there when they don't even know what their talking about. You're so obvious. . .
Yes, sc2 has balance issues. Yes it will be an ongoing discussion and the game will grow throughout it's lifespan. I will say this though, starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history since chess. (chess has many small imbalances as well) Starcraft 2 is absolutely the greatest game in the world. It's people like you guys that stir the pot and spread negativity. Negativity destroys communities and without community, we have no game.
I like your passion, and you raise some valid points. A lot of people (including me i guess lol) are quick to hate on something that isnt good in their eyes without contributing anything usefull.
However, saying Starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history is a little... over the top. It is not as bad as you think it would be if you read this thread, but its far far far away from being the most balanced game.
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On February 09 2014 01:42 Axxis wrote:
It always kills me when so many people complain about balance in such a negative way. Is why I generally read and rarely post. I mean there isnt anything wrong with contributing a worthwhile opinion and helping make our game better. However, these forums are always so full of idiots and their one-liners. Bronze league bitches who throw "pro players say this and that" out there when they don't even know what their talking about. You're so obvious. . .
Yes, sc2 has balance issues. Yes it will be an ongoing discussion and the game will grow throughout it's lifespan. I will say this though, starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history since chess. (chess has many small imbalances as well) Starcraft 2 is absolutely the greatest game in the world. It's people like you guys that stir the pot and spread negativity. Negativity destroys communities and without community, we have no game.
Keep that up and one day you'll believe it. Perhaps it's already too late? I'm sorry.
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On February 09 2014 01:54 Meridian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 01:42 Axxis wrote:
It always kills me when so many people complain about balance in such a negative way. Is why I generally read and rarely post. I mean there isnt anything wrong with contributing a worthwhile opinion and helping make our game better. However, these forums are always so full of idiots and their one-liners. Bronze league bitches who throw "pro players say this and that" out there when they don't even know what their talking about. You're so obvious. . .
Yes, sc2 has balance issues. Yes it will be an ongoing discussion and the game will grow throughout it's lifespan. I will say this though, starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history since chess. (chess has many small imbalances as well) Starcraft 2 is absolutely the greatest game in the world. It's people like you guys that stir the pot and spread negativity. Negativity destroys communities and without community, we have no game. Keep that up and one day you'll believe it. Perhaps it's already too late? I'm sorry.
Sometimes you wonder who those guys are behind those 8posts...
Like, do they keep back until they find something really valueable to say like that?
Are they some of those many people joining the SC2 community day by day?
Anyways, clearly we should trust in such well articulated, absolutly not borderline gamebashing, borderline insulting oneliners as yours instead of enjoying the game these forums are about.
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On February 09 2014 02:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 01:54 Meridian wrote:On February 09 2014 01:42 Axxis wrote:
It always kills me when so many people complain about balance in such a negative way. Is why I generally read and rarely post. I mean there isnt anything wrong with contributing a worthwhile opinion and helping make our game better. However, these forums are always so full of idiots and their one-liners. Bronze league bitches who throw "pro players say this and that" out there when they don't even know what their talking about. You're so obvious. . .
Yes, sc2 has balance issues. Yes it will be an ongoing discussion and the game will grow throughout it's lifespan. I will say this though, starcraft 2 is the most balanced game in human history since chess. (chess has many small imbalances as well) Starcraft 2 is absolutely the greatest game in the world. It's people like you guys that stir the pot and spread negativity. Negativity destroys communities and without community, we have no game. Keep that up and one day you'll believe it. Perhaps it's already too late? I'm sorry. Sometimes you wonder who those guys are behind those 8posts... Like, do they keep back until they find something really valueable to say like that? Are they some of those many people joining the SC2 community day by day? Anyways, clearly we should trust in such well articulated, absolutly not borderline gamebashing, borderline insulting oneliners as yours instead of enjoying the game these forums are about.
PBU's like me who come back and fall into the same patterns and missbehaviour (kinda unlike me xP)
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On February 09 2014 00:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 23:26 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
We feel Warp Gates are very race defining for Protoss. It's a completely different way to produce units. Because we want every race to feel unique and asymmetric, we like the design of Warp Gates.
Warp Gates were problematic in the past when 1 base or 2 base all ins were too common. We've addressed this a lot in past years.
We've talked about our stance on Force Fields in the past, and it still remains unchanged. We feel like we get a lot of feedback from forums saying there's no micro anyone can do against Force Fields. However, we just don't see this. For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible? Terran players picking off units on one side of Force Fields and dropping them on the more favorable side is another good example. We believe Force Fields are a very unique ability that sometimes feel there was nothing you could do, but that is okay because there are varying degrees of successes and failures. That is just StarCraft: If DTs come in when I have no detectors I'm dead, but that doesn't mean there was nothing I could have done.
a majority of the players (including pros) agree on the fact that WG and forcefields are a bad and boring way to design a race, his attitude towards it really makes me sad. Oh really? Let's poll every single player who plays the game in its entirety and every pro and ask their opinion. You have no idea what the data looks like, a lot of pros don't even discuss design at all, and believe it or not, there are a crap ton of players that don't hang out on reddit or team liquid. As for people discussing the tank buff and whether it did anything or not: it's not just whether it got an extra shot off, but the fact that each follow up shot comes faster means it deals it's damage quicker, which has the result of killing the enemy units slightly faster. This means those enemy units might get off fewer attacks on your own stuff, meaning the rest of your units live longer to deal more damage. End result being that the tank buff means you take less damage in battle. It's a non-obvious buff but it absolutely is a buff.
fair enough. it was a poor choice of words from me, nevertheless quite a few players have been voicing their concerns about said mechanics and the way they shape the racedesign/gameplay.
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On February 09 2014 00:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 23:26 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
We feel Warp Gates are very race defining for Protoss. It's a completely different way to produce units. Because we want every race to feel unique and asymmetric, we like the design of Warp Gates.
Warp Gates were problematic in the past when 1 base or 2 base all ins were too common. We've addressed this a lot in past years.
We've talked about our stance on Force Fields in the past, and it still remains unchanged. We feel like we get a lot of feedback from forums saying there's no micro anyone can do against Force Fields. However, we just don't see this. For example, why do Zerglings or roaches try to bait out Force Fields if micro against them is not possible? Terran players picking off units on one side of Force Fields and dropping them on the more favorable side is another good example. We believe Force Fields are a very unique ability that sometimes feel there was nothing you could do, but that is okay because there are varying degrees of successes and failures. That is just StarCraft: If DTs come in when I have no detectors I'm dead, but that doesn't mean there was nothing I could have done.
a majority of the players (including pros) agree on the fact that WG and forcefields are a bad and boring way to design a race, his attitude towards it really makes me sad. Oh really? Let's poll every single player who plays the game in its entirety and every pro and ask their opinion. You have no idea what the data looks like, a lot of pros don't even discuss design at all, and believe it or not, there are a crap ton of players that don't hang out on reddit or team liquid. As for people discussing the tank buff and whether it did anything or not: it's not just whether it got an extra shot off, but the fact that each follow up shot comes faster means it deals it's damage quicker, which has the result of killing the enemy units slightly faster. This means those enemy units might get off fewer attacks on your own stuff, meaning the rest of your units live longer to deal more damage. End result being that the tank buff means you take less damage in battle. It's a non-obvious buff but it absolutely is a buff.
Of course the tank buff is a buff. When something gets better it can be considered as a buff. If Ultralisks would get 10 more HP, we would also call it a buff. But nobody would say, that this is gamechanging in any way. And the tank buff follows the same scheme. The only thing that made terran overall stronger in a non-mirror matchup is the upgrade merge. But one can argue if the result is pleasant.
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