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Starbow - Page 80

Forum Index > SC2 General
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StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
January 18 2014 10:30 GMT
#1581
Dont balance the game so often, or it'll be like WoL nerfs, inappropriate. Let the players evolve, please.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
January 18 2014 10:30 GMT
#1582
@pure.wasted
Can you give a decent example of when %miss chance is flawed?
Working on Starbow!
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
January 18 2014 10:41 GMT
#1583
On January 18 2014 19:28 Brett wrote:
I put in an example above, it makes it very clear why miss % is preferable for the defender.

Show nested quote +
The game is already unpredictable. I seriously doubt that there's a SC2 pro who can off the top of his head calculate exactly how many units will survive when 20 Marines with 1/1 but no Stim take on 10 Hydralisks with 2/2. And then if he did, show him the map and tell him "you don't know how your opponent will react." Does his calculation still hold up?

I don't know about that specific example personally, I'm not a pro, but of course they make these calculations in their head based upon experience. Of course, sometimes they fuck it up, but how else would they know when they should and shouldn't engage... Assuming pro's have seen their opponent's army and composition, there's nothing mystical about their ability to determine whether or not their own army is capable of winning an engagement it's experience. But there is higher uncertainty when miss % is added from high ground.


I didn't say "I doubt there's any pro who will know who wins that engagement." I said there's no pro who would know how many units will survive. There is such a thing as inefficient trading. You can kill the enemy army but lost a few units too many, so there's an opportunity cost attached. Depending on where the battle is taking place (say, the Zerg's third), whether 5 Marines survive or 2 Marines survive can make a HUGE impact on their ability to do immediate economy damage, so it doesn't matter that every pro knows he'll win, it matters by how much.

This is the silliest argument I've had all day. If there was as little unpredictability in the game as you suggest, no pro would ever take an unfavorable engagement. Guess what? Pros take unfavorable engagements all the time! They lose armies when they thought they were going to win the game! (And if pros can't predict with good accuracy, obviously shmuck's like you or I can't, either.)

Unpredictability! We already have it! It doesn't require luck!
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
January 18 2014 10:45 GMT
#1584
On January 18 2014 19:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 19:28 Brett wrote:
I put in an example above, it makes it very clear why miss % is preferable for the defender.

The game is already unpredictable. I seriously doubt that there's a SC2 pro who can off the top of his head calculate exactly how many units will survive when 20 Marines with 1/1 but no Stim take on 10 Hydralisks with 2/2. And then if he did, show him the map and tell him "you don't know how your opponent will react." Does his calculation still hold up?

I don't know about that specific example personally, I'm not a pro, but of course they make these calculations in their head based upon experience. Of course, sometimes they fuck it up, but how else would they know when they should and shouldn't engage... Assuming pro's have seen their opponent's army and composition, there's nothing mystical about their ability to determine whether or not their own army is capable of winning an engagement it's experience. But there is higher uncertainty when miss % is added from high ground.


I didn't say "I doubt there's any pro who will know who wins that engagement." I said there's no pro who would know how many units will survive. There is such a thing as inefficient trading. You can kill the enemy army but lost a few units too many, so there's an opportunity cost attached. Depending on where the battle is taking place (say, the Zerg's third), whether 5 Marines survive or 2 Marines survive can make a HUGE impact on their ability to do immediate economy damage, so it doesn't matter that every pro knows he'll win, it matters by how much.

This is the silliest argument I've had all day. If there was as little unpredictability in the game as you suggest, no pro would ever take an unfavorable engagement. Guess what? Pros take unfavorable engagements all the time! They lose armies when they thought they were going to win the game! (And if pros can't predict with good accuracy, obviously shmuck's like you or I can't, either.)

Unpredictability! We already have it! It doesn't require luck!

The problem is that a defenders advantage is needed for the game, and it isn't really possible to make it without an element of luck. It's a necessary evil, and the developers already said in one of the early pages that they couldn't think of a way atm to make a proper defenders advantage without the miss chance. The other ways scale to well with armor, or not enough.
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
January 18 2014 10:55 GMT
#1585
On January 18 2014 19:45 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 19:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
On January 18 2014 19:28 Brett wrote:
I put in an example above, it makes it very clear why miss % is preferable for the defender.

The game is already unpredictable. I seriously doubt that there's a SC2 pro who can off the top of his head calculate exactly how many units will survive when 20 Marines with 1/1 but no Stim take on 10 Hydralisks with 2/2. And then if he did, show him the map and tell him "you don't know how your opponent will react." Does his calculation still hold up?

I don't know about that specific example personally, I'm not a pro, but of course they make these calculations in their head based upon experience. Of course, sometimes they fuck it up, but how else would they know when they should and shouldn't engage... Assuming pro's have seen their opponent's army and composition, there's nothing mystical about their ability to determine whether or not their own army is capable of winning an engagement it's experience. But there is higher uncertainty when miss % is added from high ground.


I didn't say "I doubt there's any pro who will know who wins that engagement." I said there's no pro who would know how many units will survive. There is such a thing as inefficient trading. You can kill the enemy army but lost a few units too many, so there's an opportunity cost attached. Depending on where the battle is taking place (say, the Zerg's third), whether 5 Marines survive or 2 Marines survive can make a HUGE impact on their ability to do immediate economy damage, so it doesn't matter that every pro knows he'll win, it matters by how much.

This is the silliest argument I've had all day. If there was as little unpredictability in the game as you suggest, no pro would ever take an unfavorable engagement. Guess what? Pros take unfavorable engagements all the time! They lose armies when they thought they were going to win the game! (And if pros can't predict with good accuracy, obviously shmuck's like you or I can't, either.)

Unpredictability! We already have it! It doesn't require luck!

The problem is that a defenders advantage is needed for the game, and it isn't really possible to make it without an element of luck. It's a necessary evil, and the developers already said in one of the early pages that they couldn't think of a way atm to make a proper defenders advantage without the miss chance. The other ways scale to well with armor, or not enough.

x% less damage when shooting high ground. BAM!
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
January 18 2014 10:59 GMT
#1586
Once again, seems like devs didn't read my post. Can you guys change the Roach projectile animation back into acid saliva? This new flame attack looks pretty bad for Roaches, and when they kill stuff it bursts into flames like when it dies from Hellions/Colossi. :/
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
January 18 2014 11:04 GMT
#1587
On January 18 2014 19:59 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Once again, seems like devs didn't read my post. Can you guys change the Roach projectile animation back into acid saliva? This new flame attack looks pretty bad for Roaches, and when they kill stuff it bursts into flames like when it dies from Hellions/Colossi. :/


It's been noted. Not sure if it will happen though
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
RaZorwire
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden718 Posts
January 18 2014 11:09 GMT
#1588
On January 18 2014 19:59 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Once again, seems like devs didn't read my post. Can you guys change the Roach projectile animation back into acid saliva? This new flame attack looks pretty bad for Roaches, and when they kill stuff it bursts into flames like when it dies from Hellions/Colossi. :/


Isn't that an improvement, though?
asphyxia88
Profile Joined March 2012
94 Posts
January 18 2014 11:15 GMT
#1589
Once again, seems like devs didn't read my post. Can you guys change the Roach projectile animation back into acid saliva? This new flame attack looks pretty bad for Roaches, and when they kill stuff it bursts into flames like when it dies from Hellions/Colossi. :/


You can blame me for that one. ^^

Since we are using the orange/brown coloured Roach model I decided to try a different approach to its attack. The basic idea was to make the Roach more of a "fire beetle/ant/thingy", kinda like it holds a lot of chemicals inside of it and then spits them out while at the same time setting them on fire. The swarm version of a Firebat/Hellbat I suppose. (I guess Abathur saw potential in a special Roach strain on some volcanic world or something ^^)

Regardless, if the flame spit attack proves to be too unpopular I'll either revert back to the acid attack or think of something else.
Brett
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Australia3820 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 11:19:29
January 18 2014 11:17 GMT
#1590
On January 18 2014 19:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 19:28 Brett wrote:
I put in an example above, it makes it very clear why miss % is preferable for the defender.

The game is already unpredictable. I seriously doubt that there's a SC2 pro who can off the top of his head calculate exactly how many units will survive when 20 Marines with 1/1 but no Stim take on 10 Hydralisks with 2/2. And then if he did, show him the map and tell him "you don't know how your opponent will react." Does his calculation still hold up?

I don't know about that specific example personally, I'm not a pro, but of course they make these calculations in their head based upon experience. Of course, sometimes they fuck it up, but how else would they know when they should and shouldn't engage... Assuming pro's have seen their opponent's army and composition, there's nothing mystical about their ability to determine whether or not their own army is capable of winning an engagement it's experience. But there is higher uncertainty when miss % is added from high ground.


I didn't say "I doubt there's any pro who will know who wins that engagement." I said there's no pro who would know how many units will survive. There is such a thing as inefficient trading. You can kill the enemy army but lost a few units too many, so there's an opportunity cost attached. Depending on where the battle is taking place (say, the Zerg's third), whether 5 Marines survive or 2 Marines survive can make a HUGE impact on their ability to do immediate economy damage, so it doesn't matter that every pro knows he'll win, it matters by how much.

This is the silliest argument I've had all day. If there was as little unpredictability in the game as you suggest, no pro would ever take an unfavorable engagement. Guess what? Pros take unfavorable engagements all the time! They lose armies when they thought they were going to win the game! (And if pros can't predict with good accuracy, obviously shmuck's like you or I can't, either.)

Unpredictability! We already have it! It doesn't require luck!

Congratulations on ignoring how the unpredictability intersects with the defenders advantage. No wonder you think it's silly. Look at the example I gave for an example of how.

Lose the attitude while you're at it. You're getting snarky.
[17]Purple
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom3489 Posts
January 18 2014 11:17 GMT
#1591
On January 18 2014 20:15 asphyxia88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Once again, seems like devs didn't read my post. Can you guys change the Roach projectile animation back into acid saliva? This new flame attack looks pretty bad for Roaches, and when they kill stuff it bursts into flames like when it dies from Hellions/Colossi. :/


You can blame me for that one. ^^

Since we are using the orange/brown coloured Roach model I decided to try a different approach to its attack. The basic idea was to make the Roach more of a "fire beetle/ant/thingy", kinda like it holds a lot of chemicals inside of it and then spits them out while at the same time setting them on fire. The swarm version of a Firebat/Hellbat I suppose. (I guess Abathur saw potential in a special Roach strain on some volcanic world or something ^^)

Regardless, if the flame spit attack proves to be too unpopular I'll either revert back to the acid attack or think of something else.

I'd just like to pitch in that I really like the new fire spit attack for the Roach. I've been wondering though why the Roach is the only ground based unit that cannot permanently burrow.
"Turn Disadvantages into Disadvantages" and "Collect Telephones". The secrets of Chinese success.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 11:21:33
January 18 2014 11:19 GMT
#1592
I like purple roach animation/version a lot more. This orange one is ugly. The best things from Feral Zergs are their Hive, their zerglings and their Swarm Guardian.

Also their hydralisks are nice too.

But don't add Feral Zerg units to standard zerg swarm. They have different design and average style. You're better use one of roach strains, green one especially is nice, purple is cool too. Recolor one of them into orange and turn acid into green-lime-yellow, so it will be something like yellow'ed (aka Nurgle from Warhammer 40k) acid weapon instead just burning.

Fire/burn weapon does not fits for zergs, except Yagdra worm.

Better add Nydus destroyer and design it as lava worm.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
January 18 2014 11:20 GMT
#1593
On January 18 2014 19:30 SolidSMD wrote:
@pure.wasted
Can you give a decent example of when %miss chance is flawed?


Flawed in what sense? In the sense that it is luck and luck is bad? Or in the sense that it favors some units over others? I have a feeling that you mean the latter.

Imagine two scenarios. In the first, a pack of 10 Marines bumrush a Siege Tank on high ground. In the second, a pack of 5 Marauders does the same. They get hit once on the way there. Marines clump up more so they take more splash damage. It takes JUST over one tank hit to kill a Marine, it takes three tank hits to kill a Marauder. There's a 30% chance that 6 Marines will miss/2 Marauders will miss. Let's say that happens. He gets hit by the Tank again. Marines are already dying left and right, a bunch are in red, still not a single Marauder dead even with target fire. Both attackers want to retreat now. Marines still clumped as shit, take another big hit with lots of splash. Marauders retreat at almost identical speed, take less splash damage. With target fire from the tank, one Marauder dies. How many Marines you think died? Safe bet that it was a lot more than two, right? Especially if the tank is target firing? If more than two Marines died, then the Marauder player came out way ahead because his units were tough enough to survive a bunch of hits and fast enough to still get out.

Pretty straight forward, I think.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 11:24:51
January 18 2014 11:24 GMT
#1594
Any idea of how many people play this game? I tried a few games vs the AI, they were fun, it would be interesting to play this against other people in ranked matches. I especially like the new zerglings, also how larvae work is also interesting.
maru lover forever
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 11:31:49
January 18 2014 11:30 GMT
#1595
On January 18 2014 19:45 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 19:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
On January 18 2014 19:28 Brett wrote:
I put in an example above, it makes it very clear why miss % is preferable for the defender.

The game is already unpredictable. I seriously doubt that there's a SC2 pro who can off the top of his head calculate exactly how many units will survive when 20 Marines with 1/1 but no Stim take on 10 Hydralisks with 2/2. And then if he did, show him the map and tell him "you don't know how your opponent will react." Does his calculation still hold up?

I don't know about that specific example personally, I'm not a pro, but of course they make these calculations in their head based upon experience. Of course, sometimes they fuck it up, but how else would they know when they should and shouldn't engage... Assuming pro's have seen their opponent's army and composition, there's nothing mystical about their ability to determine whether or not their own army is capable of winning an engagement it's experience. But there is higher uncertainty when miss % is added from high ground.


I didn't say "I doubt there's any pro who will know who wins that engagement." I said there's no pro who would know how many units will survive. There is such a thing as inefficient trading. You can kill the enemy army but lost a few units too many, so there's an opportunity cost attached. Depending on where the battle is taking place (say, the Zerg's third), whether 5 Marines survive or 2 Marines survive can make a HUGE impact on their ability to do immediate economy damage, so it doesn't matter that every pro knows he'll win, it matters by how much.

This is the silliest argument I've had all day. If there was as little unpredictability in the game as you suggest, no pro would ever take an unfavorable engagement. Guess what? Pros take unfavorable engagements all the time! They lose armies when they thought they were going to win the game! (And if pros can't predict with good accuracy, obviously shmuck's like you or I can't, either.)

Unpredictability! We already have it! It doesn't require luck!

The problem is that a defenders advantage is needed for the game, and it isn't really possible to make it without an element of luck. It's a necessary evil, and the developers already said in one of the early pages that they couldn't think of a way atm to make a proper defenders advantage without the miss chance. The other ways scale to well with armor, or not enough.


Miss chance scales well with unit toughness. Tough units can survive bad engagements and GTFO while the GTFOing is still good. Glass cannons that miss their first volley will invariably melt.

Miss chance also scales very well with spells, ie. Storm and Plague, which incur zero penalties. So does "attacker deals less damage" (but not "defender deals more damage"!!!! They're not the same thing, they work very differently in practice!) but my point here isn't that "attacker deals less damage" is the best option, it's that even disregarding the fact that miss chance is based on luck, it's still not "fair" to all units!!!

Even if those don't work for whatever reason, I still want to keep discussion open about other avenues. I still haven't heard a thing about range increase/decrease for defender/attacker, for instance.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Ardias
Profile Joined January 2014
Russian Federation605 Posts
January 18 2014 11:31 GMT
#1596
On January 18 2014 20:24 Incognoto wrote:
Any idea of how many people play this game? I tried a few games vs the AI, they were fun, it would be interesting to play this against other people in ranked matches. I especially like the new zerglings, also how larvae work is also interesting.

Join "Starbow" chat channel to find people to play.

Also, I like new roaches much more than standatrd ones, and their animation too.
Mess with the best or die like the rest.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
January 18 2014 11:31 GMT
#1597
On January 18 2014 20:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 19:30 SolidSMD wrote:
@pure.wasted
Can you give a decent example of when %miss chance is flawed?


Flawed in what sense? In the sense that it is luck and luck is bad? Or in the sense that it favors some units over others? I have a feeling that you mean the latter.

Imagine two scenarios. In the first, a pack of 10 Marines bumrush a Siege Tank on high ground. In the second, a pack of 5 Marauders does the same. They get hit once on the way there. Marines clump up more so they take more splash damage. It takes JUST over one tank hit to kill a Marine, it takes three tank hits to kill a Marauder. There's a 30% chance that 6 Marines will miss/2 Marauders will miss. Let's say that happens. He gets hit by the Tank again. Marines are already dying left and right, a bunch are in red, still not a single Marauder dead even with target fire. Both attackers want to retreat now. Marines still clumped as shit, take another big hit with lots of splash. Marauders retreat at almost identical speed, take less splash damage. With target fire from the tank, one Marauder dies. How many Marines you think died? Safe bet that it was a lot more than two, right? Especially if the tank is target firing? If more than two Marines died, then the Marauder player came out way ahead because his units were tough enough to survive a bunch of hits and fast enough to still get out.

Pretty straight forward, I think.

So you are saying certain units are better vs other units? interesting..
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 11:37:57
January 18 2014 11:36 GMT
#1598
On January 18 2014 20:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 20:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
On January 18 2014 19:30 SolidSMD wrote:
@pure.wasted
Can you give a decent example of when %miss chance is flawed?


Flawed in what sense? In the sense that it is luck and luck is bad? Or in the sense that it favors some units over others? I have a feeling that you mean the latter.

Imagine two scenarios. In the first, a pack of 10 Marines bumrush a Siege Tank on high ground. In the second, a pack of 5 Marauders does the same. They get hit once on the way there. Marines clump up more so they take more splash damage. It takes JUST over one tank hit to kill a Marine, it takes three tank hits to kill a Marauder. There's a 30% chance that 6 Marines will miss/2 Marauders will miss. Let's say that happens. He gets hit by the Tank again. Marines are already dying left and right, a bunch are in red, still not a single Marauder dead even with target fire. Both attackers want to retreat now. Marines still clumped as shit, take another big hit with lots of splash. Marauders retreat at almost identical speed, take less splash damage. With target fire from the tank, one Marauder dies. How many Marines you think died? Safe bet that it was a lot more than two, right? Especially if the tank is target firing? If more than two Marines died, then the Marauder player came out way ahead because his units were tough enough to survive a bunch of hits and fast enough to still get out.

Pretty straight forward, I think.

So you are saying certain units are better vs other units? interesting..


No, if I wanted to say that, I'd say that "the Terran attacker with Marauders is probably not terribly worried about 2 of his Marauders missing their attacks."

High speed, high HP units like the Dragoon and Marauder have escape routes open to them in highground/lowground engagements where an unexpected amount of misses crop up that other units do not, by virtue of either dying too fast or not moving fast enough to get away without dying some more.

I don't see how this is a smaller deal than the way attack buffs/nerfs would scale. There is no defender's advantage mechanic that is "unbiased" and affects all units with perfect proportion. I am attempting to dispel the bothersome myth that miss chance is that mechanic.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
January 18 2014 11:38 GMT
#1599
unpredictable has a huge meaning in sc2. two great examples:
PvZ early attack (~7min). all stalkers and zealots and zerglings dies (at natural or 3rd) zerg base. There are 25lings in prodction. Protoss can warpin ~5zealots or ~5stalkers (during ~25zergling production). P is going to die if its 5 stalkers, this happens mostly because P thinks Z is buildung roaches.

ZvT Lategame. both lost all units due to one fight. Zerg is remaxing pure Ultras (17 ultras for example). T doesnt know if Zerg is remaxing Ultras or is building a BL+Coruptor army. If T is buildung a army for BL+C, he is dead.
Or inverted: T is remaxing something and Zerg doesnt know what and builds something wrong.

In both cases, the one lost the game due to production time. the time during the production time is sadly too important in sc2.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
January 18 2014 11:41 GMT
#1600
How do you micro muta/scourge in ZvZ ? Scourge seems to go as fast as mutas, so I dont really understand wha I'm supposed to do..
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