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On August 07 2014 19:54 Xiphias wrote:
We tested it earlier, and it is there to soft counter ht's (cloak a group and go "snipe" obs+ht's) and also more effective for nuke harass. It was quite fun, although a tad un-intuitive.
If it's fun, than it is nice. even if it is kinda odd.
In dota, the courier is slowed if he is carrying an EMPTY bottle.
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Ongoing Design and Balance Thread:
Matrix moved to SV's
NOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo.....
:<
I rly liked the way SB changed the Medic, giving he Stim and Matrix felt so awesome...
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On August 08 2014 03:57 -Archangel- wrote:
You forget there is no promotion or updates or ladder for Korean server at the moment. Starbow is more hardcore than Sc2 and koreans are the ones to prefer more hardcore.
Also the showmatches between pro players had couple of thousand viewers, so the interest is there but people always prefer higher level players. Also once the game stops being changed so much more people will come as people don't like to invest time into learning something that changes so much so often.
You are also forgetting that in Korea, it won't be sc2 that it will be competing, it will be bw.
We have seen how korean pros react to goons ai for an example.
A couple of thousand of viewers are largely drawn by the basetradetv fans and its player.
not to mention that is tournament and showmatches are still extremely rare atm for starbow.
Being hardcore in nature doesn't mean it will have this small amount of player base at all.
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We have an ongoing testmap with some changes that we are close to adding to the mod itself unless testing proves otherwise.
I will cast games tonight from the testmap and test different scenarios over on http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow. But we need you to play! I should get started around 20:00 (8pm) EU time on the EU server.
List of changes on the testmap:
Terran
- Stim now gives a 1.7 multiplier to attack speed (up from 1.5)
- Medics now heal 12 hp per click instead of 10.
- Matrix moved to SV's, costs 100 energy, and adds 250 hp.
- Size of tanks and goliaths reduced.
- Shock removed from ghosts.
- "Hunter seeker lockdown" added to ghosts, costs 75 energy. We will test slightly faster acceleration than on the old testmap.
- Ghosts now gains some speed when cloaked.
- Optical flair on medics. An additional behavior has been added. All spell-casters hit by optical flare will have their spell cast range reduced to 5. (Relevant spellcasters: Queens, Defilers, Vipers, High Templars, Arbiters, Battlecruisers, Science Vessels and medics.)
- G-4 charges on reapers now deal 55 explosive damage. Also, no dmg to buildings.
- Reaper hp set to 70 (up form 60), but reaper elite training does not give +20 hp anymore.
- Reaper elite training now adds +0.4 speed, down from +0.5
- Reaper armor type changed to light.
- Ground mech upgrades are now split with air units upgrades.
- Viking cost increased from 150/100 to 175/125
- Viking damage ground set to 10, down from 14.
- Viking splash dmg radius set to 2.8 for outer. (down form 4)
Zerg
- Creep goes away 1,5 faster once overlord / hatchery / creep tumor has been killed.
- Banelings who are killed before impact does not add the debuff effect.
- Overseer armor removed and starting speed is now 0.6 (down form 1.1, overlord is about 0.4).
Protoss
- Observatory now only takes 26 sec to build. Down from 40. (This is almost a bug fix as the observatory was unusually long build time which lingered from a spider mine change which was reverted long ago).
List of stuff we wanna test:
- Static d vs reapers in ZvT
- Lings vs reapers.
- General PvZ with slower overseers on hatch tech
- TvZ mutas with new viking (make sure we did not nerf too much).
- TvT Viking vs non-viking.
- Bio TvP
- Bio TvT
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Removing baneling's only effect when killed? Really? You might as well remove them and give a spell with similar effect to some other unit or remove it altogether.
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Ever considered to dumb down to the AI of the banelings instead so it doesn't split so well automatically? This way it requires more actual splitting micro and the penalty of amoving will be larger.
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On August 08 2014 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Removing baneling's only effect when killed? Really? You might as well remove them and give a spell with similar effect to some other unit or remove it altogether.
We are also thinking of buffing their base speed that we wrote about in the starbowmod.com thread. Point is, banelings should be like mines, if you kill them before they hit, it should be rewarded. This is not a balance change, it is a design change. We can find ways of compensating if needed, we just wanted the opponent to feel that he accomplished something by killing them before they hit.
On August 08 2014 20:57 Hider wrote:
Ever considered to dumb down to the AI of the banelings instead so it doesn't split so well automatically? This way it requires more actual splitting micro and the penalty of amoving will be larger.
I already feel splitting is harder since banelings do not kill units anymore, which means they now often all attack the front marine/zealot.
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On August 08 2014 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Removing baneling's only effect when killed? Really? You might as well remove them and give a spell with similar effect to some other unit or remove it altogether.
I fully agreeing with that change. People who focus fire the banelings should be rewarded for their micro. Killing a unit yet still getting hit by its effect was dumb, and discourages micro from both sides.
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We are also thinking of buffing their base speed that we wrote about in the starbowmod.com thread. Point is, banelings should be like mines, if you kill them before they hit, it should be rewarded. This is not a balance change, it is a design change. We can find ways of compensating if needed, we just wanted the opponent to feel that he accomplished something by killing them before they hit.
That's, however, unlikely to reward micro in most situations as its not practical to focus fire them. Perhaps the exceptions are Siege Tanks and Reavers. Though unlike Sc2-tanks, Tanks here overkill and attack slower which makes it less practical to focus fire with them.
Splitting, however, is how micro is rewarded in Sc2, though that may not work as well in Starbow, dno.
Stim now gives a 1.7 multiplier to attack speed (up from 1.5)
Medics now heal 12 hp per click instead of 10.
This will make Marines hardcounter Dragoons/Hydras even more + make it somewhat better vs Speedlings in lower numbers. While Optic Flare change is a nice addition, Marine/medic will still get absolutely owned by Psy Storm. Assuming your trying to buff bio play vs zerg, why not try and make changes that buffs it vs Psy Storm simultaneously?
"Hunter seeker lockdown" added to ghosts, costs 75 energy. We will test slightly faster acceleration than on the old testmap .
What are your thoughts on when it should be practical to remicro against the lockdown?
I would have liked to see it possible for the terran to use the lockdown on the Reaver, and then the protoss player can respond by picking it up in a Prism, flying away and avoiding lockdown.But it would still have an advantage of forcing the Reaver to not be able to attack during periods of the battle.
As a consequence, Lockdown at 75 energy cost would probably be a bit overpriced here.
From my perspective, if you make the missile faster and keep the high energy cost, then its bascially just gonna be an always-hit ability. At least you cannot micro reactively. Instead you would need to micro as terrans do vs HOTS-fungal, where you predict in advance when and where the zerg will cast Fungal growth, and split prior to you seeing the fungal growth being casted.
Reaper hp set to 70 (up form 60), but reaper elite training does not give +20 hp anymore.
Reaper elite training now adds +0.4 speed, down from +0.5
Reaper armor type changed to light.
From an interaction-POV it makes a lot of sense to not have Reaper bombs deal damage to buildings as Spines (and no other static defense) can remicro against it.
But I still wonder - what's the overall intended role of the Reaper? Does it have later-game utility? Is there any way you see this unit as being able to do something unique that in the later stages of the game that other units cannot fulfill?
I see this as buffing it vs protoss a bit, but worsening it vs mech.
Observatory now only takes 26 sec to build. Down from 40. (This is almost a bug fix as the observatory was unusually long build time which lingered from a spider mine change which was reverted long ago).
Fusion core - at least previously was also took around 20 seconds too long. Has that been changed as well?
Overseer armor removed and starting speed is now 0.6 (down form 1.1, overlord is about 0.4).
I think it makes sense to remove armor in order to buff Corsair/DT a bit. However, I wonder what's the reasoning for double-nerfing it. Is it really that bad to give zerg the options of being able to scout and react early game? Is it the intention to reward more unscoutable cheese?
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On August 08 2014 21:54 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Removing baneling's only effect when killed? Really? You might as well remove them and give a spell with similar effect to some other unit or remove it altogether. We are also thinking of buffing their base speed that we wrote about in the starbowmod.com thread. Point is, banelings should be like mines, if you kill them before they hit, it should be rewarded. This is not a balance change, it is a design change. We can find ways of compensating if needed, we just wanted the opponent to feel that he accomplished something by killing them before they hit.
OK then. So when we build four zergling we also get 3 banelings for free? Yes?
If you kill them before they are in range of your units it should be rewarded like in Sc2, there is no need for this kind of nerf. If their AoE is too big, make is smaller but this?! This is just bad.
On August 08 2014 22:31 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Removing baneling's only effect when killed? Really? You might as well remove them and give a spell with similar effect to some other unit or remove it altogether. I fully agreeing with that change. People who focus fire the banelings should be rewarded for their micro. Killing a unit yet still getting hit by its effect was dumb, and discourages micro from both sides.
So Sc2 banelings should also not have any effect on death, only when it hits something?
And then this:
On August 08 2014 21:54 Xiphias wrote:
I already feel splitting is harder since banelings do not kill units anymore, which means they now often all attack the front marine/zealot.
This is already a nerf to starbow banelings compared to Sc2 ones, why also make them useless?!
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Just added a crazy reaper idea we are testing now
2 upgrades. One for cliff jumping
and one for bombs+hp boost +speed boost.
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The issue with the Reaper is that Reapers with speed hardcounter Slowlings
When Reaper speed required ebay, this wasn't as much as an issue as you could rush out speed at 6 minute mark and be fine vs Reapers. However, today it seems you need to rush out multiple spines which makes it imbalanced + there are no interactions here (slowlings can never attack them).
Some say, cliff-jumping is the issue, however if speed is maintained but cliff-jumping removed, then zerg would just respond by putting spines at the front, and Reapers would thus just stagnate the game instead of adding micro-interactions.
I would like to see a Reaper that encouraged actions, but it should be a two-way interaction.
In order to accomplish that, Reaper Speed needs to be moved further back in the tech-tree. E.g. make it require ebay, Ghost academy or Factory once again.
As a compensation, I believe Reapers could just start with bombs as a compensation. Assuming slow-reapers with bombs can battle Speedlings somewhat decently, I think that could be a more fair and interesting interaction. Further, the new 70HP unupgraded Reapers could justfiy a small movement speed increase by 0.1 or 0.15 so that slowlings can battle them better (yeh even slowreapers are IMO barely too fast for slowlings).
By putting Reaper speed much later into the game it can be a ton stronger so that Mutalisks/Vultures doesn't hardcounter it. For instance, with a factory requirement, Elite Reaper upgrade could increase Reaper HP from 70 to 90 HP, and movement speed to around 4. This, however, also requires that it stays medium so it doesn't suddenly counter Dragoons and Hydralisks. At the same time, that Reaper will make it much stronger vs Vultures which will add a new dynamic to TvT.
So to sum up.
Slowreapers
- 70 HP
- Movement speed reduced from 3.25 to 3.1
- Starts with Reaper bombs
- Medium armor maintained.
Upgraded Reapers
- Requires a higher tech building to be upgraded (shouldn't be something that can be researched before 9-10 minute mark)
- Movement speed increased to 4
- HP increased from 70 to 90
Advantages
- Slowreapers have utility vs both slowlings and Speedlings without being OP (hopefully)
- Upgraded Reapers come much later into the game, where they can be made much stronger. This makes them much better in all of the matchups as a late-game unit.
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Reapers can be slower than zerglings though, because they're a semi-flying unit. They can escape through cliffs and use their ability.
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On August 09 2014 05:14 Grumbels wrote:
Reapers can be slower than zerglings though, because they're a semi-flying unit. They can escape through cliffs and use their ability.
Well to be fair they are also outnumbered and require techlab which delays terran economy. So they do have to do some damage and if slowlings were faster than slowreapers that would be almost impossible.
But yeh, they don't have to be much faster. At least I believe that reapers in general should have a much more difficult time kiting against them, and I think around same movement speed or perhaps just a couple of percentages faster will work as well given that it starts with Reaper bombs.
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What is the overall purpose of all these ongoing patches? Nearly 8 months into the beta and there seems to me to be no sense of a coherent direction to Starbow's development.
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On August 09 2014 05:17 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 05:14 Grumbels wrote:
Reapers can be slower than zerglings though, because they're a semi-flying unit. They can escape through cliffs and use their ability. Well to be fair they are also outnumbered and require techlab which delays terran economy. So they do have to do some damage and if slowlings were faster than slowreapers that would be almost impossible. But yeh, they don't have to be much faster. At least I believe that reapers in general should have a much more difficult time kiting against them, and I think around same movement speed or perhaps just a couple of percentages faster will work as well given that it starts with Reaper bombs.
Sure, I guess numerical advantage is like a mobility advantage in a sense, since you can surround, so it compensates for lack of speed.
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On August 09 2014 05:36 aZealot wrote:
What is the overall purpose of all these ongoing patches? Nearly 8 months into the beta and there seems to me to be no sense of a coherent direction to Starbow's development.
The WOL beta lasted nearly 7 months. and we have not a huge playerbase/ a design studio of hundreds of guys.
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So apparently Reapers are already pretty good in TvT, thus 100 HP and medium is probably making it too dominant. Still think they should easily beat Vultures though as Vultures still are much faster and have Spider Mines.
So my suggestion is 90 HP now 
As long as the upgrade come much later into the game, the upgrade can also be much more benefical.
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EPT
