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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 12 2014 19:59 Grumbels wrote: Maybe it's a silly question, but why do we actually have marauders in the game? It seems to me that firebats could fill their niche quite well. Not sure firebat could but ghost could do it, he is gosu | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
So? This is not BW. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:09 The_Red_Viper wrote: I like creep spreading, but i don't like that zerg gets vision with it. I really can't following this logic. What the is the point of creep spreading? I'm quite sure it's not about the artistic needs of queens and the enjoyment of posh lings. | ||
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Snotling
Germany885 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:14 Sikian wrote: I really can't following this logic. What the is the point of creep spreading? I'm quite sure it's not about the artistic needs of queens and the enjoyment of posh lings. movement speed? id like creep to give vision in the way a sensortower gives (ground only) | ||
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Zhadez10
Iceland39 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:14 Sikian wrote: I really can't following this logic. What the is the point of creep spreading? I'm quite sure it's not about the artistic needs of queens and the enjoyment of posh lings. Zerg units get bonus health regeneration on creep, and the vision from the tumors ofc. | ||
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Zhadez10
Iceland39 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:21 Snotling wrote: movement speed? id like creep to give vision in the way a sensortower gives (ground only) Only Queens and burrowed units get bonus movespeed on creep. Slight health regeneration is the actual bonus. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:21 Snotling wrote: movement speed? id like creep to give vision in the way a sensortower gives (ground only) Oh, that's cute. I think it would be odd though, because the creep tumor is still a unit so why shouldn't it be able to observe its surroundings? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Sikian
Spain177 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:21 Snotling wrote: movement speed? id like creep to give vision in the way a sensortower gives (ground only) Not is SB :O | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
It aint? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think the "free vision" is bad for the gameplay, ofc you would need to give creep some other benefit if you would remove it, but it just feels wrong to see everything only cause you spread creep. Well, not everything has to be risk vs reward. Mining minerals is always good. Why shouldn't creep be a core mechanic that gives you some free benefits? Other races can still deny it. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:38 Grumbels wrote: Well, not everything has to be risk vs reward. Mining minerals is always good. Why shouldn't creep be a core mechanic that gives you some free benefits? Other races can still deny it. Spreading creep is one of the best new ideas Sc2 brought even if it is APM intensive. I would like to go even further and let zerg players upgrade specific creep tumors into different kinds that give different abilities or penalties to area around it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
http://binarybeast.com/xSC214030920 | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:38 Grumbels wrote: Well, not everything has to be risk vs reward. Mining minerals is always good. Why shouldn't creep be a core mechanic that gives you some free benefits? Other races can still deny it. I don't think benefits for creep are bad, i just dislike the vision benefit. Zerg already would have an easy option to get vision around the map (overlords), i don't see why zerg needs more option with even less risk. I am not really sure if this is a problem in starbow right now, but zerg players will get better at it and eventually it could became one. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:38 Grumbels wrote: Well, not everything has to be risk vs reward. Mining minerals is always good. Why shouldn't creep be a core mechanic that gives you some free benefits? Other races can still deny it. Because creep spread is really good with his vision. Scanning=less energy on unit/eco. Toss doesnt go early observer in pvz The creep spread is for the vision. I would understand it if u asked the other way around, why it SHOULD and not SHOULDNT What is so interesting about it in general? It gives movementspeed in sc2 which i dispise alot cuz its almost impossible to fight on creap vs zerg I see it as creep in sc2 removes gameplay more than it gives @archangel I dont get your logic, you just compare creep to SC2 which starbow aint. Then you say to me "Why does it matter that it wasnt creep spread in bw, this is not bw" Because this is much closer to bw than sc2, what do you think yourself? | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:11 Foxxan wrote: Because creep spread is really good with his vision. Scanning=less energy on unit/eco. Toss doesnt go early observer in pvz What is so interesting about it in general? It gives movementspeed in sc2 which i dispise alot cuz its almost impossible to fight on creap vs zerg I see it as creep in sc2 removes gameplay more than it gives @archangel I dont get your logic, you just compare creep to SC2 which starbow aint. Then you say to me "Why does it matter that it wasnt creep spread in bw" Because this is much closer to bw than sc2, what do you think yourself? Creep tumor = energy = less energy for Inject and Transmute = to Terran needing to choose between vision and macro. So you want it removed because in SC2 (another game) you don't know how to handle creep? Yea, that is a REALLY valid reason lol. SB is SC2 with BW units and BW economy. It is a mix of both and your argument was, well in BW it did not exist so it should not in SB. I said, this is not BW, I didn't say it exists because it is in SC2, but that I think it is a good mechanic that was introduced for SC2. SB is a mix of both games but it is played in SC2 and it is mostly to get SC2 players to play it as they already have the client and are used to all of this. I see no reason why a hardcore BW player would leave BW and go play SB and why SB needs to cater to those. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:22 -Archangel- wrote: Creep tumor = energy = less energy for Inject and Transmute = to Terran needing to choose between vision and macro. So you want it removed because in SC2 (another game) you don't know how to handle creep? Yea, that is a REALLY valid reason lol. SB is SC2 with BW units and BW economy. It is a mix of both and your argument was, well in BW it did not exist so it should not in SB. I said, this is not BW, I didn't say it exists because it is in SC2, but that I think it is a good mechanic that was introduced for SC2. SB is a mix of both games but it is played in SC2 and it is mostly to get SC2 players to play it as they already have the client and are used to all of this. I see no reason why a hardcore BW player would leave BW and go play SB and why SB needs to cater to those. Creep costs 15energy, and it plus with each other. and your argument was, well in BW it did not exist so it should not in SB Please quote that from me | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't think benefits for creep are bad, i just dislike the vision benefit. Zerg already would have an easy option to get vision around the map (overlords), i don't see why zerg needs more option with even less risk. I am not really sure if this is a problem in starbow right now, but zerg players will get better at it and eventually it could became one. It currently has not been a problem because cooldown tumor placement prevented you from spreading creep once you took the time to spend some APM on it. You would basically just be able to order your 3 queens to place a creeptumor here and there. I'm pretty sure that creepspread will explode after this patch. And may require a nerf to the energy cost of creeptumors. I'm with you that I think Creepspread gives too much vision and overlaps with all sorts of other spotting tools like OLs, stray units/changelings or burrowed lings around the map. I like the idea of sensortower vision for creeptumors. I think the main problem with removing vision from creep is creepspreading (which requires vision+creep) and that you would not see how far your creep has actually spread. Like you'd have to explore your own creepspread, which sounds quite unintuitive. Even observers (which only have the vision of the playing players) wouldn't see the actual creepspread, just the explored borders of it. Creepvision is a really powerful tool and I think some nerfs wouldn't be bad on it. But it sounds like a better solution than no creepspread or creepspread without vision that looks strange to the players/observers. Also, in general I think that all scouting tools and mappresence are quite good for all races in Sbow. Zerg gets a lot from spreading creep, but lategame Terran usually always sees everything he wants with scans as well and Protoss has some good tools too (though it is by far the worst race when it comes to tracking enemy movement). | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:50 Foxxan wrote: In case you didnt know: Queen starts with 50energy while the other start with 25energy. Creep=15energy scan=35energy So for the arguments sake lets say queens starting energy get reduced to 25. What zerg do is wait just a few seconds then he can afford both inject and creep=not very much lost in eco/unit wise. The creep always plus with each other. 1 can turn into 10000 A scan never plus, ever Not to mention protoss have no scan. The vision part is huge for zerg. Not hard for him to have his map covered with creep when he 3base vs terran. I call it "free vision" for them, i see no reason why they should have free vision Ha, I knew you would compare energy, it just shows you use faulty logic to prove your point #1 In sc2 direct comparisons out of context don't work because each side is completely different, including basic building and macro mechanics. #2 It is 15 energy because unlike sc2 queen cannot attack by default so it does need to have more energy built up to use its defensive abilities and the last change of enrage to 35 is not only a nerf to enrage but to creep tumors and injects and transfuse, it just needs opponents to be more active. #3 Scan is a more reliable scouting options and it detects invisible. I really don't know why I need to spell this out, it is like I am explaining 1+1 to you... #4 Those creep tumors don't turn into 1000 by themselves. Try playing Zerg for a while and lets see how many creep tumors you will spawn during the game. If I could exchange creep tumors for a Terran Scan I would without a thought, especially since in SB it is so much weaker with no speed increase. Foxxan wrote: "In broodwar you couldnt even spread creep" | ||
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