- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out? - The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch? - The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game? - The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3) - The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats? - The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit? - The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok.
WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete !@#$%^&*, and most of the time a lukewarm meh.
dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on....
I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
maybe like 4-5 months ago with some friends. It's fun, but felt slower paced and I didn't see myself investing a lot of time into the game.
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out? - The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch? - The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game? - The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3) - The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats? - The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit? - The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok.
WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete !@#$%^&*, and most of the time a lukewarm meh.
dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on....
I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
maybe like 4-5 months ago with some friends. It's fun, but felt slower paced and I didn't see myself investing a lot of time into the game.
Hmm I think there is a big difference between the pre BW adoption and post. At around August it was transformed into having BW as a core, which made it much much better. Before that, Sc2 was honestly a better game indeed. Since then
Atm. I think Sbow is more fast-paced than Sc2, but its still an unfinished product in some ways. Anyway, for referrence, check out the below VOD. These types of games prooves that mech doesn't have to be boring and turtlish as in Sc2.
On January 10 2014 11:35 Musicus wrote: Balance wise, they should just let the game develope a bit further before changing something I think. So I like they are going slow here. But gameplay wise there are obvious faults like the swarmhost that should be tackled asap.
I'd strongly disagree here. I mean, the Swarmhost IS problematic, but changing the Swarmhost would require A LOT of adjustments on other units. Let's just face it: There are some situation where the Swarmhost in the current form is simply required. Especially in the late game against Protoss and a meching Terran, the Zerg has just nothing to deal with these kind of armies without the Swarmhost in its current form (Just watch all the VOD's of Zerg players who don't use Swarmhosts... they just lose at one point). So: Yes, everyone hates Swarmhosts, nobody hates them more than the Zerg themself, but right now they need them. And as long as they don't change A LOT, the Swarmhost will be needed in the future as well.
Overall I'd say the game hasn't really balance issues, but rather design issues. And without radical changes this problem will sustain for quite some time. And to be honest: buffing mech would be the completely wrong path to go, imo. Mech is, imo, the prototypical style which everyone hates about StarCraft II: Passive games until you got your army -> move out and crush the opponent or die. From a viewer perspective mech is just insanely boring to watch most of the time - and therefore we have the same problem as always: Buffing mech won't solve anything as long as there are no adjustments beside the buff, mech might be viable afterwards, but... that wouldn't help the game at all.
And I'll never understand why everyone thinks that Terran is the only race which should be allowed to have both options in every matchup. Zerg can't go for Roach/Hydra (Or just range units in general) in ZvT neither (except for some timing pushs) and no one really seems to care. But if Terrans can't go mech in TvP that's a big deal?
On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote: [quote] That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok.
WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete !@#$%^&*, and most of the time a lukewarm meh.
dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on....
I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
maybe like 4-5 months ago with some friends. It's fun, but felt slower paced and I didn't see myself investing a lot of time into the game.
Hmm I think there is a big difference between the pre BW adoption and post. At around August it was transformed into having BW as a core, which made it much much better. Before that, Sc2 was honestly a better game indeed. Since then
Atm. I think Sbow is more fast-paced than Sc2, but its still an unfinished product in some ways. Anyway, for referrence, check out the below VOD. These types of games prooves that mech doesn't have to be boring and turtlish as in Sc2.
Much like Starbound and other unfinished stuff, I generally wait till it is done. I have to many finished products on my plate. Maybe I will go back, but I will continue to play SC2 until then(when I'm tired to dotaing)
Especially in the late game against Protoss and a meching Terran, the Zerg has just nothing to deal with these kind of armies without the Swarmhost in its current form (Just watch all the VOD's of Zerg players who don't use Swarmhosts... they just lose at one point). So: Yes, everyone hates Swarmhosts, nobody hates them more than the Zerg themself, but right now they need them. And as long as they don't change A LOT, the Swarmhost will be needed in the future as well.
I actually think it isn't impossible to "fix" in a patch. By fix I mean we make the following changes;
1) Nerf it into obviolion like Reaper was in WOL. This is simply accepting that the SH is extremely flawed and just bad for the game. In LOTV it can then be replaced by a different unit. 2) Make Ravens 3 supply instead of 2 --> Nerfs terran mech turtle a lot. Swarm Hosts less neccsary. 3) Nerf protoss air (I guess VR's and Tempests are the problem here) --> Makes Swarm hosts less necessary. Alternatively, we could also make HT's (and Ghosts) 3 supply, which will make protoss turtling less efificent.
Especially in the late game against Protoss and a meching Terran, the Zerg has just nothing to deal with these kind of armies without the Swarmhost in its current form (Just watch all the VOD's of Zerg players who don't use Swarmhosts... they just lose at one point). So: Yes, everyone hates Swarmhosts, nobody hates them more than the Zerg themself, but right now they need them. And as long as they don't change A LOT, the Swarmhost will be needed in the future as well.
I actually think it isn't that hard to "fix". By fix I mean we make the following changes;
1) Nerf it into obviolion like Reaper was in WOL. This is simply accepting that the SH is extremely flawed and just bad for the game. In LOTV it can then be replaced by a different unit. 2) Make Ravens 3 supply instead of 2 --> Nerfs terran mech turtle a lot. Swarm Hosts less neccsary. 3) Nerf protoss air (I guess VR's and Tempests are the problem here) --> Makes Swarm hosts less necessary. Alternatively, we could also make HT's (and Ghosts) 3 supply, which will make protoss turtling less efificent.
My favored suggestion is to make the locusts last only 20 seconds, but to give the upgrade by default. And maybe add a small health buff. I think the main problem is that swarm hosts are bad in mid-game, but are never vulnerable in late-game.
Seriously guys, eventhough I don't appreciate David Kim's communication and way to explain things, please be polite toward him. I dare you to name a single game ever where there were 50% WR in all 3 matchup at pro level for so long. So yes, imo TvP is broken, but hell, if you hate the game so much, play another one, but don't insult David Kim like that, he's doing a good job keeping the most competitive complexe rts ever balanced. So yeah, there are problems and it's normal to complain about it, but don't go witht he insults, it's being really weak and lacking.
dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on....
I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
maybe like 4-5 months ago with some friends. It's fun, but felt slower paced and I didn't see myself investing a lot of time into the game.
Hmm I think there is a big difference between the pre BW adoption and post. At around August it was transformed into having BW as a core, which made it much much better. Before that, Sc2 was honestly a better game indeed. Since then
Atm. I think Sbow is more fast-paced than Sc2, but its still an unfinished product in some ways. Anyway, for referrence, check out the below VOD. These types of games prooves that mech doesn't have to be boring and turtlish as in Sc2.
Much like Starbound and other unfinished stuff, I generally wait till it is done. I have to many finished products on my plate. Maybe I will go back, but I will continue to play SC2 until then(when I'm tired to dotaing)
Argh I just watched that Starbow vod and almost cried, it was so beautiful, as rudimentary and bare bones as it might have been. I just envisioned a major tournament with that mod, it was a like mental masturbation. I sincerely hope it keeps growing and those guys get the funding they need.
On January 10 2014 23:36 Faust852 wrote: Seriously guys, eventhough I don't appreciate David Kim's communication and way to explain things, please be polite toward him. I dare you to name a single game ever where there were 50% WR in all 3 matchup at pro level for so long. So yes, imo TvP is broken, but hell, if you hate the game so much, play another one, but don't insult David Kim like that, he's doing a good job keeping the most competitive complexe rts ever balanced. So yeah, there are problems and it's normal to complain about it, but don't go witht he insults, it's being really weak and lacking.
This community is a whiny bunch of children like 90% of the time. SC2 is one of the most balanced competitive games in history.
Especially in the late game against Protoss and a meching Terran, the Zerg has just nothing to deal with these kind of armies without the Swarmhost in its current form (Just watch all the VOD's of Zerg players who don't use Swarmhosts... they just lose at one point). So: Yes, everyone hates Swarmhosts, nobody hates them more than the Zerg themself, but right now they need them. And as long as they don't change A LOT, the Swarmhost will be needed in the future as well.
I actually think it isn't that hard to "fix". By fix I mean we make the following changes;
1) Nerf it into obviolion like Reaper was in WOL. This is simply accepting that the SH is extremely flawed and just bad for the game. In LOTV it can then be replaced by a different unit. 2) Make Ravens 3 supply instead of 2 --> Nerfs terran mech turtle a lot. Swarm Hosts less neccsary. 3) Nerf protoss air (I guess VR's and Tempests are the problem here) --> Makes Swarm hosts less necessary. Alternatively, we could also make HT's (and Ghosts) 3 supply, which will make protoss turtling less efificent.
My favored suggestion is to make the locusts last only 20 seconds, but to give the upgrade by default. And maybe add a small health buff. I think the main problem is that swarm hosts are bad in mid-game, but are never vulnerable in late-game.
I think regardless of what small change you make to it its bad because the opponent can't really attack into it. Lurkers worked in BW because the zerg had much less stuff + Lurkers covered a much much smaller area. Swarm Hosts cover a way too large, even if they lasts 20 seconds.
If they cover a smaller area but you increase HP as a compensation it will likely make it even better when you turtle behind them (since they are more cost effective).
I believe the fundament issue here is the problem of free units.
On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote: [quote] I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
maybe like 4-5 months ago with some friends. It's fun, but felt slower paced and I didn't see myself investing a lot of time into the game.
Hmm I think there is a big difference between the pre BW adoption and post. At around August it was transformed into having BW as a core, which made it much much better. Before that, Sc2 was honestly a better game indeed. Since then
Atm. I think Sbow is more fast-paced than Sc2, but its still an unfinished product in some ways. Anyway, for referrence, check out the below VOD. These types of games prooves that mech doesn't have to be boring and turtlish as in Sc2.
Much like Starbound and other unfinished stuff, I generally wait till it is done. I have to many finished products on my plate. Maybe I will go back, but I will continue to play SC2 until then(when I'm tired to dotaing)
See the light, play Smite
I just got into the race car stylings of elder Titan in dota, that's going to keep for a while.
i'm not quite sure where apm = difficulty figures into this argument. if sc2's goal was to reduce mindless actions required then protoss is moving in the right direction. i can for example design a race where you had to constantly type the alphabet from a-z to receive gas, but that's not skill, nor is it in theory difficult. it's just unnecessary tedium - bad design.
On January 10 2014 23:40 shadymmj wrote: i'm not quite sure where apm = difficulty figures into this argument. if sc2's goal was to reduce mindless actions required then protoss is moving in the right direction. i can for example design a race where you had to constantly type the alphabet from a-z to receive gas, but that's not skill, nor is it in theory difficult. it's just unnecessary tedium - bad design.
Dota is the same way, where you have to constantly manage the control of your hero to not get hung up on creeps. There are even tricks to increase your dps by canceling out of your backswing animation.
If the army managed itself, no one would make mistakes and the game would just devolve down to a moving across the map.
On January 10 2014 23:40 shadymmj wrote: i'm not quite sure where apm = difficulty figures into this argument. if sc2's goal was to reduce mindless actions required then protoss is moving in the right direction. i can for example design a race where you had to constantly type the alphabet from a-z to receive gas, but that's not skill, nor is it in theory difficult. it's just unnecessary tedium - bad design.
On January 10 2014 23:40 shadymmj wrote: i'm not quite sure where apm = difficulty figures into this argument. if sc2's goal was to reduce mindless actions required then protoss is moving in the right direction. i can for example design a race where you had to constantly type the alphabet from a-z to receive gas, but that's not skill, nor is it in theory difficult. it's just unnecessary tedium - bad design.
Dota is the same way, where you have to constantly manage the control of your hero to not get hung up on creeps. There are even tricks to increase your dps by canceling out of your backswing animation.
If the army managed itself, no one would make mistakes and the game would just devolve down to a moving across the map.
Even if the army manages itself, there is still the aspect to positioning and multi-tasking.
Especially in the late game against Protoss and a meching Terran, the Zerg has just nothing to deal with these kind of armies without the Swarmhost in its current form (Just watch all the VOD's of Zerg players who don't use Swarmhosts... they just lose at one point). So: Yes, everyone hates Swarmhosts, nobody hates them more than the Zerg themself, but right now they need them. And as long as they don't change A LOT, the Swarmhost will be needed in the future as well.
I actually think it isn't impossible to "fix" in a patch. By fix I mean we make the following changes;
1) Nerf it into obviolion like Reaper was in WOL. This is simply accepting that the SH is extremely flawed and just bad for the game. In LOTV it can then be replaced by a different unit. 2) Make Ravens 3 supply instead of 2 --> Nerfs terran mech turtle a lot. Swarm Hosts less neccsary. 3) Nerf protoss air (I guess VR's and Tempests are the problem here) --> Makes Swarm hosts less necessary. Alternatively, we could also make HT's (and Ghosts) 3 supply, which will make protoss turtling less efificent.
I just feel like they never change multiple things to make something better. They normally adjust minor stuff in order to make something slightly stronger and weaker. I can't remember a patch where they adjusted multiple things for a single purpose. But we'll see - I just hope they won't simply nerf the Swarmhost to nerf the turtling Zerg - because IMO it's normally the opponent who forces the Zerg to turtle and the Zerg just reacts with the only option he got. If your proposed adjustments would equalize a major Swarmhost nerf... I have no idea, tbh
But I agree: Give the Zerg a more interesting unit in LotV... and maybe change the completely idiotic Tempest. I mean, everyone always stated that there are too many boring hardcounters in SCII and that they are just way too good without doing anything... ... And all they were able to come up with was a HARDCOUNTER to Broodlords? Srsly?
EPT
