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On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on....
I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
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On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
It's annoying that I dislike dota so much, because that game seems like a much better model for an esports game. The developers make money from people playing their game, so they are encouraged to continue development. There is also an active playerbase, which isn't as true for Starcraft 2. And the developers are more transparent and listen to the community more. And Icefrog hasn't been "tamed" by Valve yet, so the design decisions aren't so obviously influenced by some corporate beliefs about not offending casual players.
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France9034 Posts
On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
I kinda agree with this point. Thing is I don't know if there can be a solution to this problem. I'd be totally okay with a monthly fee (like, between 3 and 5$ or €, whatever), if that meant we could have better support and effort put into the game. But I know that not that many people would be okay. So this isn't a solution.
Something else could be Free to play (multiplayer for example, campaign still needing to be bought), with some sort of store , but the thing is I can't just think of anything that would fit such a store... Unit designs? (Unusable in ranked matches maybe). Decals? Portraits... ? No seriously, I just can't see such a store working, and that must be the reason there's no such feature...
So yeah... Monetization of the game is/may be kind of a problem here... (I don't know about licenses, like, for tournaments, how much they receive from that...)
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On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
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On January 10 2014 22:57 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. I kinda agree with this point. Thing is I don't know if there can be a solution to this problem. I'd be totally okay with a monthly fee (like, between 3 and 5$ or €, whatever), if that meant we could have better support and effort put into the game. But I know that not that many people would be okay. So this isn't a solution. Something else could be Free to play (multiplayer for example, campaign still needing to be bought), with some sort of store , but the thing is I can't just think of anything that would fit such a store... Unit designs? (Unusable in ranked matches maybe). Decals? Portraits... ? No seriously, I just can't see such a store working, and that must be the reason there's no such feature... So yeah... Monetization of the game is/may be kind of a problem here... (I don't know about licenses, like, for tournaments, how much they receive from that...)
You don't need a monthly fee, you just need steady revenue. Dota 2 is completely F2P, you only pay for cosmetic stuff. I honestly think that if SC2 had followed a F2P from day 1, the game would be bigger AND be making more money. As it is, you don't get do overs, and there is not going to be a mass influx of viewers, sponsors or players into a four year old game with stale viewership and no real target demographic or growth potential.
Starcraft 2 for all its flaws is still a pretty good game, but I strongly suspect its legacy will be one of missed opportunities and what ifs.
What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
There is a big difference between making a mod where you can just kind of wing it and subsequently iterate through trial and error, as opposed to basically remaking core gameplay for the official version that will be played in every major tournament. If it turns out to be completely broken or just awful gameplay, the game is more or less done for, people aren't going stick around for a year or more waiting for yet another remake. Any kind of redesign would need to be as thorough, if not more so, than the original development process. It would take years most likely.
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On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
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On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
I think that we shouldn't underestimate Blizzard. Starcraft 2 has been developed for a very long time and virtually everything in the game is the way it is because Blizzard wants it to. The pace of the game (high income, macro mechanics etc.) is there to speed up the game. The advanced pathfinding is there to impress reviewers. Units like the colossus are there to impress 12 year old kids.
We could say that it doesn't work out, but Blizzard is fully committed to their existing framework for the game. It would take too much time and effort to redesign the game and it's too risky of an endeavor. Blizzard is foremost a corporation trying to make money and create an audience, and the people that really care about high level 1v1 competitive gameplay are too small in number to take these risks. Furthermore, the higher-ups at Blizzard might feel like going to change the design at this hour would be like a vote of no confidence in David Kim/Dustin Browder, which creates internal problems.
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nice try by blizzard that the pic looks "very very balanced". Bnet help you to have a ~50% win percentage, so no surprise that it looks good.
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France9034 Posts
On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
Indies driven by passion =/= real world people working for a company. (And I don't mean there aren't passionnate developers at Blizzard, just that you can't compare).
Oh, and I'm sure there are people way less lazy, ignorant, stupid and stubborn than many people here (me included). I don't mean that as an insult. Just watch a bit your words, because they're untrue and mean.
I'm not always fond of their decisions, I'll still never call them stupid, ignorant, lazy, or stubborn.
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@ blizzard
first of all u jerks should start preventing ablities to maphack, cause thousands of bastards are running around there and do shit like this cause i got the feeling every noob with a cc+ crash course is able to create those maphacks. its just so sad to see the scene crumbling more and more.
but yeah 20 seconds overcharge more are gonna make things amazing... CUNTS!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 10 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer). In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2.
But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
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On January 10 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer). In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2. But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
and very well possible that it will lead to other issues as well.
wol looked perfectly fine for a long time
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The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
I think largely the problem is the how the game is played out and not really about the win/loss because the results actually don't tell you much.
Often the solutions to the perceived problem is portrayed as a balance problem so things must be nerfed to buff certain units to increase the dynamics of the game.. yet I think this gets lost in translation and somehow the 50% balance is the end goal for a perfect game which I think is the wrong way to go about "balancing" the game to be fun and engaging for both players irrespective of race.
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On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete !@#$%^&*, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer).
Its harder for Blizzard to make Sc2 interesting because Sc2 is build upon unsound fundamentals, where there is a big assymmetry in army strenght in midgame. That's the biggest issue of everything in Sc2 as it forces the "weak" race to turtle, which creates boring games.
Blizzard can't really fix this issue in any easy way. Starbow used to have unsound fundamentals as well untill it adopted BW as a core-game, which made the game a lot more fun to play and watch.
That also made it easier to balance, because you could then start to add up all the changes made in Sbow (relative to BW) in plusses and minusses. This recreates BW balance, but in a different way.
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On January 10 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer). In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2. But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
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I get that people are tired of Blizzard but Starbow has no chance of building a competitive community.
This was maybe possible late 2011 or early 2012 when Blizzard didn't run the WCS and HotS was still some way off.
Right now Blizzard funds too many tournaments to be matched in sponsor money.
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On January 10 2014 23:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:On January 10 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete !@#$%^&*, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer). In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2. But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also. I played it enough to get an informed opinion on it and decide I like SC2 better. Don't get me wrong, it's totally fun and a good change of pace. But it's not the RTs Jesus people make it out to be.
When did you play it? And in which way did you find Sc2 to be better?
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I think David Kim is underestimating the significance of three percent winrate difference when balanced for skill level. While it may seem small, this is a huge sample size so it should basically be approaching accurate and it's actually quite far off, even if it were only 1 percent. I realize this will never be a perfectly balanced game because of meta-shift, popularity of races, difficulty of techniques being inherent variable, but if they are striving to drive these things towards 50% (sort of a pointless effort imo), 3% is a glaring failure.
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On January 10 2014 23:08 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On January 10 2014 22:57 Ammanas wrote:On January 10 2014 22:51 Squat wrote:On January 10 2014 22:39 KOtical wrote:On January 10 2014 22:33 Squat wrote:
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the collossus get out?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the swarm host get out or get interesting to watch?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will ZvP stop having a horrible late-game?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will PvT stop being a one way match-up for the terran (i.e. bio, bio, bio, viking/ghost lategame) 95% of the time? (Mvp vs Squirtle <3)
- The game is quite balanced, but when will be implemented a really interesting micro potential like shown in the Depth of Micro video, something that's already feasible by just manipulating some unit's stats?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will the corruptor be reworked/removed in favor of a more interesting unit?
- The game is quite balanced, but when will we get rid of the really high damage/low hp ratio that makes battles end in seconds, and most of the time games with them?
That ship sailed early in the beta, WoL beta for most of these issues. Once a game hits beta, it's mostly done, it's about fine tuning at that point. Add in Blizzard's infamous stubbornness and echo chambers, and I really don't think changing the game in any meaningful way was ever really on the table, even in the early WoL beta. Blizzard is happy with SC2, and it turned out ok. Not great, but ok. WC3 was a clusterfuck for years, it was more or less broken at the pro level. In the end, it was a rather inconspicuous mod that became the big thing from that game. Maybe SC2 can follow a similar pattern. Unlikely I know, but it's probably the best we can hope for. Otherwise, what we have is what we will get, a decent enough product that will sometimes be amazing, sometimes complete shit, and most of the time a lukewarm meh. dont judge to early... we still have one more add on to come and i hope this time it turns out to be a good add on.... I'm sorry, but this is crossing the line into wishful thinking for me. There is no long term revenue in SC2 for blizzard. For them to devote the kind of time and resources needed to fix fundamental problems with the game, they would need a strong monetary incentive. There is a reason why WoW has such a stupendous amount of content, because of the steady income it generates. What time and resources? I am sorry, but people who created Starbow - a mod created in their free time and in no way profitable have created much better game then people in Blizzard. They took their concept, they enhanced it and there we are. NOTHING is stopping Blizz from doing their own enhancements (or hell, just straight up steal that stuff from Starbow, it belongs to them anyway as per lincense terms afaik) besides their own laziness/ignorance/stupidity/stuborness (pick whichever you prefer). In your opinion. Starbow is great, but I don't like it more than SC2. But how much have you really played Starbow? There isn't an existing competitive community for that game, so the gameplay isn't very advanced yet. If it had more exposure (for instance, if there were high profile tournaments) then the gameplay might evolve more. If you look at SC2 matches from 2010 they are pretty boring also.
TB mentioned a possibility of looking into Starbow. Nothing concrete, and I do not presume to speak on his behalf, but he seemed to at least find it interesting. I think that would be great. What blizzard needs more than anything is real competition in the RTS niche.
If they get pushed into a corner where their original product is being outperformed by a mod, like in WC3, they might be roused to some more drastic action. One can only hope they have learned their lesson from scoffing derisively at Dota(this seriously makes me laugh every time, the irony and poetic justice is just too delicious).
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im pretty sure when 3 players are left to play sc2 its still 50% david.
i cant believe this guy is still in charge, fucking idiot
User was warned for this post
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EPT
