EPTOn October 29 2013 04:48 ZAiNs wrote:
Revival isn't losing to Select and JonSnow
.
Revival isn't losing to Select and JonSnow
.You know nothing.
Naniwa offers Bounty to whoever beats Revival - Page 8
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
You know nothing. | ||
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Epamynondas
387 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:46 DarkLordOlli wrote: GUYS breaking news - Revival's group is Taeja, Select and Jonsnow. Taeja forfeited. https://twitter.com/NaNiwaSC2/status/394909633711579136 This is actually way more shady* than naniwa ofering any kind of cash/sexual favors to whoever beats revival... *not shady as in korean konspiracy, but as in it makes the competition looks pretty fake. I wouldn't be proud of going to blizzcon after getting my final points from a free invite to IEM and a challenger group without its strongest player | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:46 DarkLordOlli wrote: GUYS breaking news - Revival's group is Taeja, Select and Jonsnow. Taeja forfeited. https://twitter.com/NaNiwaSC2/status/394909633711579136 Haha, yes. | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:53 Eventine wrote: clearly koreans throwing to get other koreans into the finals grab the pitchforks guys! | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
 If anything, it will produce better games. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:50 awesomoecalypse wrote: Yes. NBA players are notorious for betting each other, and just a couple years ago it came out that in the NFL the New Orleans Saints were offering paid bounties to any player who injured someone on the other team. Both of those strike me as much more problematic than this, and both of those leagues are doing just fine. do you not understand the difference between underground gambling going on and a player doing this openly? i didn't say "esports will suffer if players pay each other," i said it's not a good look for blizzard's competitions if they simply allow it to be done openly. and your NBA/NFL examples seem to agree with my point because i recall both of them being absolutely major public scandals at the time | ||
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LittleRedBoy
United States229 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:55 Epamynondas wrote: This is actually way more shady* than naniwa ofering any kind of cash/sexual favors to whoever beats revival... *not shady as in korean konspiracy, but as in it makes the competition looks pretty fake. I wouldn't be proud of going to blizzcon after getting my final points from a free invite to IEM and a challenger group without its strongest player Who knows maybe Revival paid Taeja to abandon that match and get a sure walk to blizzcon. ALL HAIL THE ALL KOREAN SC2 | ||
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pmp10
3239 Posts
If the tables were turned any Korean offering bounty to keep Naniwa out of Blizzcon would be lynched by this community. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:59 Zealously wrote: Much like our retired friend Stephano, Naniwa seems to have the ability to conjure drama out of thin air. The hero we need. | ||
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Epamynondas
387 Posts
On October 29 2013 05:00 Darkren wrote: Who knows maybe Revival paid Taeja to abandon that match and get a sure walk to blizzcon. ALL HAIL THE ALL KOREAN SC2 Okay okay i'll raise my pitchfork if you insist... sigh, the things i'll do for esports | ||
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:52 Waise wrote: you sure about that? that's the nature of the entire debate. i would not be surprised at all if blizzard came out and made a ruling against this based on some conditions of the tournament signups. so yes, they could declare this to be against the rules if they chose to that's not correct and doesn't make sense. naniwa's team is his employer, employers give employees bonuses if they perform well. a tournament is a competition that pays out to the best competitor. both are standard business and neither is related to players gambling or bribing amongst each other. the point you're missing is that it's not just for $500. it's also for all the potential and guaranteed prize money and benefits of making it to blizzcon. if this were over a showmatch, there wouldn't be an issue. but naniwa is trying to make an investment of $500 to ensure that blizzcon prize pools are more likely available to him and not revival. that is the issue to put it another way: i'm revival. i sign on to tournaments because my understanding is that blizzard will reward me for performing well at their game. i practice and play to the best of my ability. but my opponent has a higher potential prize than me because of naniwa. i will never have access to naniwa's $500. therefore the issue is that i am no longer competing on an equal footing with my opponent or naniwa the concern is blizzard's, if anyone's. like i said, it's not about morality but about professionalism and legitimacy Ah, you're right, your opponent does have a higher potential prize, but there's an even bigger issue with equal footing that you've not touched: You're Korean. Your opponents are not. Hell, you are significantly better at the game than they are. Why aren't you worried about these inequalities? You're not worried about those because they don't matter. We don't care if people are competing under different circumstances if all of the relevant circumstances are the same, and both players are interacting with the program under the ways that everyone has agreed are okay, and that the differences in play are due to skill and execution. None of that has changed. Now, it may be the case that your opponents are slightly more motivated than they would be otherwise, but so what? You (and Revival) are not entitled to have unmotivated opponents. In fact, Naniwa and the watchers are entitled to your having very motivated opponents. This is why we think badly of people who concede these things without playing. We understand, in cases like Taeja's and Scarlett's before it turned out she could play third season of WCS, that they are conceding for good reasons - health, wrist reasons mostly. Seriously, guys, the comparison with real sports is the comparison to side bets athletes have about their performance, and those side bets are a commonplace. Michael Jordan is so famous for his side bets that there's a conspiracy theory that his first retirement was to hush up a real gambling scandal. This is mostly a non-issue, does not reflect badly on anybody's professionalism, and I think it's kind of cool. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:55 PanN wrote: no? i didn't say those things at all, you just made them up and attributing them to meYeah that makes absolutely no sense what so ever. You act as if the incentive to beat revival isn't there already, and you act as if revival has no incentive to win because *GASP* the prizepools are differen't! i'm saying that naniwa, if he is serious, believes he is doing this for the purpose of giving revival's opponents an advantage over him. if he didn't think he was gaining an advantage, he wouldn't do it (btw i'm still not 100% convinced he's serious anyway). that advantage would be based on naniwa being willing to pay another player, which is not something i think should affect a starcraft competition. simple as that. maybe i'm wrong that it would be a detriment to the scene, maybe i'm not, but if i were running a tournament i wouldn't allow that sort of thing because it's not related to skill at the sport, just like cheating/maphacking/etc. isn't related to skill either On October 29 2013 04:55 PanN wrote: You're typing a lot of nonsense for no reason what so ever. i'm typing opinions and arguments because i enjoy it and i want to have a healthy debate with people, just like anyone else? maybe you need to relax? | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:59 Zealously wrote: Much like our retired friend Stephano, Naniwa seems to have the ability to conjure drama out of thin air. The higher level a foreigner so must his ability to produce drama increase proportionally. | ||
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Norzma
Sweden160 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:52 Waise wrote: you sure about that? that's the nature of the entire debate. i would not be surprised at all if blizzard came out and made a ruling against this based on some conditions of the tournament signups. so yes, they could declare this to be against the rules if they chose to that's not correct and doesn't make sense. naniwa's team is his employer, employers give employees bonuses if they perform well. a tournament is a competition that pays out to the best competitor. both are standard business and neither is related to players gambling or bribing amongst each other. the point you're missing is that it's not just for $500. it's also for all the potential and guaranteed prize money and benefits of making it to blizzcon. if this were over a showmatch, there wouldn't be an issue. but naniwa is trying to make an investment of $500 to ensure that blizzcon prize pools are more likely available to him and not revival. that is the issue to put it another way: i'm revival. i sign on to tournaments because my understanding is that blizzard will reward me for performing well at their game. i practice and play to the best of my ability. but my opponent has a higher potential prize than me because of naniwa. i will never have access to naniwa's $500. therefore the issue is that i am no longer competing on an equal footing with my opponent or naniwa the concern is blizzard's, if anyone's. like i said, it's not about morality but about professionalism and legitimacy However Naniwa is just offering an incentive for other players that has NOTHING to gain from winning their group over revival. Revival himself has his incentive already, if he wins he gets to play naniwa in a tiebreaker to enter the final 16 at blizzcon. A incentive wont make revival play worse. A incentive will make the other players take that group more serious. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Please and Thank You | ||
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Iceman331
United States1306 Posts
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On October 29 2013 04:58 Waise wrote: do you not understand the difference between underground gambling going on and a player doing this openly? i didn't say "esports will suffer if players pay each other," i said it's not a good look for blizzard's competitions if they simply allow it to be done openly. and your NBA/NFL examples seem to agree with my point because i recall both of them being absolutely major public scandals at the time You're right about the NFL example. That's why it's a bad example-it was about hurting the other players, and was still a case of the team paying the employed player. The relevant comparison is to the side bets Jordan made, well-documented by every biographer he's had. I followed the Atlanta Braves, an MLB team, very closely in the 1990s (still do!) and the famous pitching staff they had always had running bets amongst them about who had the best hitting stats. These were bets that the announcers doing the commentating, most of them former professional baseball players and some of them former Braves, talked about quite a bit. Nothing under the table. | ||
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