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On October 30 2013 02:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 02:40 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:28 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:16 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 00:34 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 00:15 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
True, what about mining out part :3? Then you take another base and simply abandon the base that's mined out. At no point in the game do you need more than 3 bases at once, and the benefits for taking more than 3 are subject to extreme diminishing returns. If there was a way to make it imperative to continuously secure and hold bases past 3, that would mean players would have to defend multiple location at once, often too far away for the main army to arrive in time, which is a good thing. Dunno, my favorite style of trading stuff all the time benefits from having lower amount of workers per base but keeping worker count in 70s. Just for the sake of A. not feeling too bad about losing whole mineral line tor random drop, since it is only 10 workers B. it's not like favorite compositions are slow (muta ling <3). Also, want it or not, but armies in BW sucked at defending multitude of bases. They had a benefit of ramps being overpowered against units. So forcing base spread has a single problem: drops become a SERIOUS problem, since stimmed bio can easily pick off bunch of warping zealots with micro and then you have a problem with base spread. And single benefit of having better economy than turtling player. But it's not like turtling player does not have a serious means to harass and can still gather deathball meanwhile with decent defense. Of course it would be very hard, that's the whole point. The more difficult the basic metagame is to execute properly, and the more simultaneous activity there is, the more the truly great players can distinguish themselves from the merely good. Also, I liked how ramps would make aggression more difficult, it made massing units less effective, which is good. If stimmed bio is dropping your base, and zealots are being warped in response, the toss has essentially already failed. That base was supposed to have HTs feedbacking the medivacs as they came in, and cannons with a small force of units to respond. Having to effectively and consistently defend multiple locations is one of the most difficult things in an RTS, and one of the best opportunities to shine. There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. Dear vs Maru and Dear vs Soulkey are what one sided matchups should look like. Despite a 4-0 score, Dear vs Soulkey was a nailbiter EVERY SINGLE MATCH And game 1 vs Maru was heavenly. Sadly, we only have 1 Dear, we only have 1 Innovation. It'd be nice if we see more of these types of plays. Absolutely, I think the fact that amazing players can make the game look good is awesome, my concern is these players are making the game look better than it actually is by sheer, very impressive, level of skill. That should be the norm, not exceptions, that playstyle should be the style you HAVE to use every macro game at the professional level, outside of timings/all ins. ...And as players reach that level of skill, that WILL be the case. They're not making the game look better than it is. That's impossible. They're showing a better idea of what the game actually is. As more player elevate their play, these sorts of games will be FORCED to become the norm, because the ones that can't hack it will be left in the dust. And I think we could expedite that process by making the game less forgiving of turtling and massing units in general. I think the game makes it too easy for lesser players to use easy strategies and achieve disproportionate results with them. All ins and timings especially, mainly because it's too easy to get a good army off too few bases. As long these simple strategies exist and are as viable as they are, I think that is holding the game back. there are so many more ways in which that could go wrong not sure it would actually be that much more entertaining for those lesser players to pretty much have to use these styles and then fuck them up by being, well, lesser players The idea is that all players can work hard enough to be as good as Dear. But the current system allows them to be relaxed enough to simply play well instead of their best. Good example of this is Demuslim. Same build all day err day. Doesn't scout, doesn't innovate. Why? Because he wins often enough with his style that he'd rather make less mistakes doing the easier play than push himself to be perfect. The belief is that if we make the easy play no longer as effective as the difficult play, then people will start only practicing the difficult play. Because we believe that the current players are good enough to handle it.
fair enough in regards to the idea
getting an appropriate set of changes in place would be far more difficult, but that's probably what discussion and testing are for
cough queens cough
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On October 30 2013 03:21 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 02:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 02:40 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:28 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:16 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 00:34 Squat wrote:
[quote]
Then you take another base and simply abandon the base that's mined out. At no point in the game do you need more than 3 bases at once, and the benefits for taking more than 3 are subject to extreme diminishing returns.
If there was a way to make it imperative to continuously secure and hold bases past 3, that would mean players would have to defend multiple location at once, often too far away for the main army to arrive in time, which is a good thing. Dunno, my favorite style of trading stuff all the time benefits from having lower amount of workers per base but keeping worker count in 70s. Just for the sake of A. not feeling too bad about losing whole mineral line tor random drop, since it is only 10 workers B. it's not like favorite compositions are slow (muta ling <3). Also, want it or not, but armies in BW sucked at defending multitude of bases. They had a benefit of ramps being overpowered against units. So forcing base spread has a single problem: drops become a SERIOUS problem, since stimmed bio can easily pick off bunch of warping zealots with micro and then you have a problem with base spread. And single benefit of having better economy than turtling player. But it's not like turtling player does not have a serious means to harass and can still gather deathball meanwhile with decent defense. Of course it would be very hard, that's the whole point. The more difficult the basic metagame is to execute properly, and the more simultaneous activity there is, the more the truly great players can distinguish themselves from the merely good. Also, I liked how ramps would make aggression more difficult, it made massing units less effective, which is good. If stimmed bio is dropping your base, and zealots are being warped in response, the toss has essentially already failed. That base was supposed to have HTs feedbacking the medivacs as they came in, and cannons with a small force of units to respond. Having to effectively and consistently defend multiple locations is one of the most difficult things in an RTS, and one of the best opportunities to shine. There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. Dear vs Maru and Dear vs Soulkey are what one sided matchups should look like. Despite a 4-0 score, Dear vs Soulkey was a nailbiter EVERY SINGLE MATCH And game 1 vs Maru was heavenly. Sadly, we only have 1 Dear, we only have 1 Innovation. It'd be nice if we see more of these types of plays. Absolutely, I think the fact that amazing players can make the game look good is awesome, my concern is these players are making the game look better than it actually is by sheer, very impressive, level of skill. That should be the norm, not exceptions, that playstyle should be the style you HAVE to use every macro game at the professional level, outside of timings/all ins. ...And as players reach that level of skill, that WILL be the case. They're not making the game look better than it is. That's impossible. They're showing a better idea of what the game actually is. As more player elevate their play, these sorts of games will be FORCED to become the norm, because the ones that can't hack it will be left in the dust. And I think we could expedite that process by making the game less forgiving of turtling and massing units in general. I think the game makes it too easy for lesser players to use easy strategies and achieve disproportionate results with them. All ins and timings especially, mainly because it's too easy to get a good army off too few bases. As long these simple strategies exist and are as viable as they are, I think that is holding the game back. there are so many more ways in which that could go wrong not sure it would actually be that much more entertaining for those lesser players to pretty much have to use these styles and then fuck them up by being, well, lesser players The idea is that all players can work hard enough to be as good as Dear. But the current system allows them to be relaxed enough to simply play well instead of their best. Good example of this is Demuslim. Same build all day err day. Doesn't scout, doesn't innovate. Why? Because he wins often enough with his style that he'd rather make less mistakes doing the easier play than push himself to be perfect. The belief is that if we make the easy play no longer as effective as the difficult play, then people will start only practicing the difficult play. Because we believe that the current players are good enough to handle it. fair enough in regards to the idea getting an appropriate set of changes in place would be far more difficult, but that's probably what discussion and testing are for cough queens cough
I firmly believe range 8 queens would be highly conducive to entertaining and rewarding gameplay. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I die to hellion/banshee in 50% of my ZvTs.
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On October 30 2013 03:15 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:05 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:59 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:47 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:40 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:28 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:16 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:
[quote]
Of course it would be very hard, that's the whole point. The more difficult the basic metagame is to execute properly, and the more simultaneous activity there is, the more the truly great players can distinguish themselves from the merely good. Also, I liked how ramps would make aggression more difficult, it made massing units less effective, which is good.
If stimmed bio is dropping your base, and zealots are being warped in response, the toss has essentially already failed. That base was supposed to have HTs feedbacking the medivacs as they came in, and cannons with a small force of units to respond. Having to effectively and consistently defend multiple locations is one of the most difficult things in an RTS, and one of the best opportunities to shine.
[quote]
I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. Dear vs Maru and Dear vs Soulkey are what one sided matchups should look like. Despite a 4-0 score, Dear vs Soulkey was a nailbiter EVERY SINGLE MATCH And game 1 vs Maru was heavenly. Sadly, we only have 1 Dear, we only have 1 Innovation. It'd be nice if we see more of these types of plays. Absolutely, I think the fact that amazing players can make the game look good is awesome, my concern is these players are making the game look better than it actually is by sheer, very impressive, level of skill. That should be the norm, not exceptions, that playstyle should be the style you HAVE to use every macro game at the professional level, outside of timings/all ins. ...And as players reach that level of skill, that WILL be the case. They're not making the game look better than it is. That's impossible. They're showing a better idea of what the game actually is. As more player elevate their play, these sorts of games will be FORCED to become the norm, because the ones that can't hack it will be left in the dust. And I think we could expedite that process by making the game less forgiving of turtling and massing units in general. I think the game makes it too easy for lesser players to use easy strategies and achieve disproportionate results with them. All ins and timings especially, mainly because it's too easy to get a good army off too few bases. As long these simple strategies exist and are as viable as they are, I think that is holding the game back. there are so many more ways in which that could go wrong not sure it would actually be that much more entertaining for those lesser players to pretty much have to use these styles and then fuck them up by being, well, lesser players They don't remove pieces from chess to make it easier for a mediocre player to compete with a grand master. Edit: Magpie has it about right there, people will rarely leave their comfort zone unless forcibly ejected. They don't remove chess pieces to make it harder, either. That would not make it harder, it would make it more simplistic. Forcing people to use difficult strats by buffing them and nerfing easy builds is what is being proposed, not removing things. If people want to turtle and deathball they could still do that, only it would terrible strategy, not just at the WCS finals level, but anywhere above diamond. I see that as a good goal to aim for, I think the game should constantly try to emphasize difficult strategies and discourage easy and safe ones. In order for this to work, you'd have to make SC2 more simplistic as well. Slow units would be pretty much obsolete, unless they were horribly overpowered in low numbers, which would presumably make them overpowered in the context of an eventual deathball. Turtling being a viable strategy is fine, and a necessary part of the game. Turtle-->deathball might not always be exciting, but it should be at the high level as the turtler seeks to harrass their opponent and the their opponent seeks to abuse mobility etc. Without that option it would be nearly-exclusively a multitasking/mobility war in every single matchup, which would simplify the game and stagnate variety. The game is fine as is, and the amount of work that would be required to change it in a remotely interesting/balanced way would not be at all worth the minimal reward.
The problem isnt that you can turtle and make a deathball, the problem is that the deathball IS literally a deathball (he can engage 10% lesser armies and lose next to nothing). That is the case for a lot of tossdeathballs and this didnt change since the beginning. A lot of people in this thread disagree that there are deathballs at high lvl , but thats just not right.
Toss uses deathballs in pretty much every game (a bit exaggerated).
That doesnt mean that they dont harass or anything besides sit back and build it, but it means that the direct engagements are still extremely!!!! about the right composition and less about execution (there is execution, but it doesnt matter when the deathball has the right composition).That is the biggest thing that annoys me about sc2, i enjoy it most of the time but i see a lot of potential that just isnt used.
The most important part in a rts isnt how much stuff is in there (i guess you think "more stuff = more complex"), its about how these things interact with each other. You could only have half the units in sc2 as of now, redesign the interaction between them and still come out on top with the level of depth.
I understand that my posts seem to be pretty "anti sc2", but i am not. I really like sc2, but it kinda frustrates me that the developers didnt use the knowledge they could have (BW) and use it for the better.
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On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you.
Watch brood war and compare the games.
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On October 30 2013 03:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:21 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 02:40 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:28 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:16 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:04 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
Dunno, my favorite style of trading stuff all the time benefits from having lower amount of workers per base but keeping worker count in 70s. Just for the sake of A. not feeling too bad about losing whole mineral line tor random drop, since it is only 10 workers
B. it's not like favorite compositions are slow (muta ling <3).
Also, want it or not, but armies in BW sucked at defending multitude of bases. They had a benefit of ramps being overpowered against units.
So forcing base spread has a single problem: drops become a SERIOUS problem, since stimmed bio can easily pick off bunch of warping zealots with micro and then you have a problem with base spread.
And single benefit of having better economy than turtling player. But it's not like turtling player does not have a serious means to harass and can still gather deathball meanwhile with decent defense. Of course it would be very hard, that's the whole point. The more difficult the basic metagame is to execute properly, and the more simultaneous activity there is, the more the truly great players can distinguish themselves from the merely good. Also, I liked how ramps would make aggression more difficult, it made massing units less effective, which is good. If stimmed bio is dropping your base, and zealots are being warped in response, the toss has essentially already failed. That base was supposed to have HTs feedbacking the medivacs as they came in, and cannons with a small force of units to respond. Having to effectively and consistently defend multiple locations is one of the most difficult things in an RTS, and one of the best opportunities to shine. There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. Dear vs Maru and Dear vs Soulkey are what one sided matchups should look like. Despite a 4-0 score, Dear vs Soulkey was a nailbiter EVERY SINGLE MATCH And game 1 vs Maru was heavenly. Sadly, we only have 1 Dear, we only have 1 Innovation. It'd be nice if we see more of these types of plays. Absolutely, I think the fact that amazing players can make the game look good is awesome, my concern is these players are making the game look better than it actually is by sheer, very impressive, level of skill. That should be the norm, not exceptions, that playstyle should be the style you HAVE to use every macro game at the professional level, outside of timings/all ins. ...And as players reach that level of skill, that WILL be the case. They're not making the game look better than it is. That's impossible. They're showing a better idea of what the game actually is. As more player elevate their play, these sorts of games will be FORCED to become the norm, because the ones that can't hack it will be left in the dust. And I think we could expedite that process by making the game less forgiving of turtling and massing units in general. I think the game makes it too easy for lesser players to use easy strategies and achieve disproportionate results with them. All ins and timings especially, mainly because it's too easy to get a good army off too few bases. As long these simple strategies exist and are as viable as they are, I think that is holding the game back. there are so many more ways in which that could go wrong not sure it would actually be that much more entertaining for those lesser players to pretty much have to use these styles and then fuck them up by being, well, lesser players The idea is that all players can work hard enough to be as good as Dear. But the current system allows them to be relaxed enough to simply play well instead of their best. Good example of this is Demuslim. Same build all day err day. Doesn't scout, doesn't innovate. Why? Because he wins often enough with his style that he'd rather make less mistakes doing the easier play than push himself to be perfect. The belief is that if we make the easy play no longer as effective as the difficult play, then people will start only practicing the difficult play. Because we believe that the current players are good enough to handle it. fair enough in regards to the idea getting an appropriate set of changes in place would be far more difficult, but that's probably what discussion and testing are for cough queens cough I firmly believe range 8 queens would be highly conducive to entertaining and rewarding gameplay. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I die to hellion/banshee in 50% of my ZvTs.
As a MutaLingBling player I would greatly appreciate 8range Banelings as well 
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On October 30 2013 03:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:25 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:21 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 02:40 dangthatsright wrote:On October 30 2013 02:28 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 02:16 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 01:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:
[quote]
Of course it would be very hard, that's the whole point. The more difficult the basic metagame is to execute properly, and the more simultaneous activity there is, the more the truly great players can distinguish themselves from the merely good. Also, I liked how ramps would make aggression more difficult, it made massing units less effective, which is good.
If stimmed bio is dropping your base, and zealots are being warped in response, the toss has essentially already failed. That base was supposed to have HTs feedbacking the medivacs as they came in, and cannons with a small force of units to respond. Having to effectively and consistently defend multiple locations is one of the most difficult things in an RTS, and one of the best opportunities to shine.
[quote]
I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. Dear vs Maru and Dear vs Soulkey are what one sided matchups should look like. Despite a 4-0 score, Dear vs Soulkey was a nailbiter EVERY SINGLE MATCH And game 1 vs Maru was heavenly. Sadly, we only have 1 Dear, we only have 1 Innovation. It'd be nice if we see more of these types of plays. Absolutely, I think the fact that amazing players can make the game look good is awesome, my concern is these players are making the game look better than it actually is by sheer, very impressive, level of skill. That should be the norm, not exceptions, that playstyle should be the style you HAVE to use every macro game at the professional level, outside of timings/all ins. ...And as players reach that level of skill, that WILL be the case. They're not making the game look better than it is. That's impossible. They're showing a better idea of what the game actually is. As more player elevate their play, these sorts of games will be FORCED to become the norm, because the ones that can't hack it will be left in the dust. And I think we could expedite that process by making the game less forgiving of turtling and massing units in general. I think the game makes it too easy for lesser players to use easy strategies and achieve disproportionate results with them. All ins and timings especially, mainly because it's too easy to get a good army off too few bases. As long these simple strategies exist and are as viable as they are, I think that is holding the game back. there are so many more ways in which that could go wrong not sure it would actually be that much more entertaining for those lesser players to pretty much have to use these styles and then fuck them up by being, well, lesser players The idea is that all players can work hard enough to be as good as Dear. But the current system allows them to be relaxed enough to simply play well instead of their best. Good example of this is Demuslim. Same build all day err day. Doesn't scout, doesn't innovate. Why? Because he wins often enough with his style that he'd rather make less mistakes doing the easier play than push himself to be perfect. The belief is that if we make the easy play no longer as effective as the difficult play, then people will start only practicing the difficult play. Because we believe that the current players are good enough to handle it. fair enough in regards to the idea getting an appropriate set of changes in place would be far more difficult, but that's probably what discussion and testing are for cough queens cough I firmly believe range 8 queens would be highly conducive to entertaining and rewarding gameplay. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I die to hellion/banshee in 50% of my ZvTs. As a MutaLingBling player I would greatly appreciate 8range Banelings as well
I think we just solved sc2 :O
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On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games.
Careful with that, implying that SC2 has something to learn from brood war tends to incite high amounts of anger and hostility.
But yeah, when I watched BW in 2006-2011, that was completely standard play, if I had read the polls from the WCS games and then watched them I would have been disappointed. I am not really sure what I can say other than that I disagree with the assertion that those games were exceptionally good. I still see too much of everything that we've complained about since beta.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games.
*Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss*
Whoa?
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The problem with SC2 isn't so much about the dealthball and OP units. Blizz's approach toward the designed of micro and macro was flawed. Imagine if you’re only able to select 12 units at a time, hotkey 1 building at a time, and casters has to be control manually like in BW.
This would be more of a sensible approach rather than tweaking units and implementing small changes that ultimately effect the current meta game.
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On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa?
Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down.
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On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa?
That was Nada, get your a-move accusations right 
Its also not the same thing...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down.
Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map.
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa?
Why are all of you in the above quote afraid of building a legitimate argument. Is it more rewarding to prove you can complete a sentence rather then contribute to the actual thread? There is proof from both sides of the issue on why we still have death ball style battles in SC2. Take a side and start investing some thought onto why you chose that side and then share it with the thread. I'll go ahead and help you out by talking on this issue.
Brood War is a game that isn't home free of death ball issues either. PvP matchups are very easy to reference in this manner. Archon+reaver+zlot+ht compositions tend to ball up and the players always wait for huge engagements to occur. So what elevates game play from here so it's not a standard PvP eveytime.
Brood War PvP Deathball anlysis:
Point 1: PvP deathballs are not dull to watch in BW because the battles last over a longer period of time and you can see all the micro and damaging happen as a spectator. This brings up the argument the OP had about halving the dps of SC2 units. If you missed it, go back to the OP asap.
Point 2: Map terrain. Maps have been used for the past decade to alter metagame and encourage differnt army compositions, build orders, and military tactics. So maybe if we can't solve the death ball isue through drastic Blizzard programming we can solve the issue through a redesign on 1v1 maps. More time in my opinion should be spent invested in map development and how it could improve the game.
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On October 30 2013 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down. Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map.
Protoss has every tool needed to stop the maxed mech army, and the matchup was/is considered favoured for toss.
The slowness of mech was a big part of this, it led to multiple running engagements where toss could use minedrags and stasis field and zealot drops to break up siege lines to land storms and reaver shots. Really, if a toss got rolled over by a terran who turtled to 200, he got outplayed pretty hard.
Why are all of you in the above quote afraid of building a legitimate argument. Is it more rewarding to prove you can complete a sentence rather then contribute to the actual thread? There is proof from both sides of the issue on why we still have death ball style battles in SC2. Take a side and start investing some thought onto why you chose that side and then share it with the thread. I'll go ahead and help you out by talking on this issue.
Well he picked that sentence from a 3 paragraph post to quote, not much I can do about that.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 30 2013 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Why are all of you in the above quote afraid of building a legitimate argument. Is it more rewarding to prove you can complete a sentence rather then contribute to the actual thread? There is proof from both sides of the issue on why we still have death ball style battles in SC2. Take a side and start investing some thought onto why you chose that side and then share it with the thread. I'll go ahead and help you out by talking on this issue. Brood War is a game that isn't home free of death ball issues either. PvP matchups are very easy to reference in this manner. Archon+reaver+zlot+ht compositions tend to ball up and the players always wait for huge engagements to occur. So what elevates game play from here so it's not a standard PvP eveytime. Brood War PvP Deathball anlysis: Point 1: PvP deathballs are not dull to watch in BW because the battles last over a longer period of time and you can see all the micro and damaging happen as a spectator. This brings up the argument the OP had about halving the dps of SC2 units. If you missed it, go back to the OP asap. Point 2: Map terrain. Maps have been used for the past decade to alter metagame and encourage differnt army compositions, build orders, and military tactics. So maybe if we can't solve the death ball isue through drastic Blizzard programming we can solve the issue through a redesign on 1v1 maps. More time in my opinion should be spent invested in map development and how it could improve the game.
Thanks again, now that is a valid point for the thread instead of an one-liner i and the person i quoted have written.
Well he picked that sentence from a 3 paragraph post to quote, not much I can do about that.
Pay attention to phrase i've quoted. I can agree with educated statement about BW and it's specific of what essentially is a deathball. I cannot agree with one-liner stating to watch some BW games and compare.
Protoss has every tool needed to stop the maxed mech army, and the matchup was/is considered favoured for toss.
You forgot to add depending on map. Because on different maps PvT winrate across a rather big amount of games varies from 70% to 30%.
The slowness of mech was a big part of this, it led to multiple running engagements where toss could use minedrags and stasis field and zealot drops to break up siege lines to land storms and reaver shots. Really, if a toss got rolled over by a terran who turtled to 200, he got outplayed pretty hard.
Nobody denies outplayed pretty hard part. I just deny that it is always valid to compare SC2 with BW, so statement of Grumbels is not correct.
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
On October 30 2013 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down. Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map.
There is no point in anyone replying to this guy at this point. You don't take the time to understand BW. You just want to point fingers at something else to offend people. It's not working and it's a waste of your energy. If you want to understand BW mech so you can provide argument there is a generous amount of kind BW fans in the BW section of TL that will provide you with ample information so you can come back to this thread with out looking so droll.
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On October 30 2013 01:25 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 01:24 Shiori wrote:On October 30 2013 00:11 SoFrOsTy wrote:
Watch WCS Season 3 finals. Death balls are used by lesser players. BW had deathballs as well. TvP. And TvZ. Oh and PvZ. Yeah every match up. Not really. Lots of people use deathballs because some units are garbage without synergy. Yet the really good players find a way to make those "garbage" units work outside of a deathball context. Hmmm.
No they don't. Who roams around with naked Colossi?
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On October 30 2013 04:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down. Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map. There is no point in anyone replying to this guy at this point. You don't take the time to understand BW. You just want to point fingers at something else to offend people. It's not working and it's a waste of your energy. If you want to understand BW mech so you can provide argument there is a generous amount of kind BW fans in the BW section of TL that will provide you with ample information so you can come back to this thread with out looking so droll.
I don't see the correlation with BW and this thread? BW and SC2 are different engines entirely, this thread continues to get thrown off course.
The deathball "issue" or however you want to describe it, is something that will continue to play out as the game continues to evolve. The highest level seems to be settling down a bit in terms of a deathball, so from my point of view, things seem on the up..
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
On October 30 2013 05:29 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 04:11 BisuDagger wrote:On October 30 2013 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down. Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map. There is no point in anyone replying to this guy at this point. You don't take the time to understand BW. You just want to point fingers at something else to offend people. It's not working and it's a waste of your energy. If you want to understand BW mech so you can provide argument there is a generous amount of kind BW fans in the BW section of TL that will provide you with ample information so you can come back to this thread with out looking so droll. I don't see the correlation with BW and this thread? BW and SC2 are different engines entirely, this thread continues to get thrown off course. The deathball "issue" or however you want to describe it, is something that will continue to play out as the game continues to evolve. The highest level seems to be settling down a bit in terms of a deathball, so from my point of view, things seem on the up..
I'm not sure why you are saying this to me. I didn't bring BW up. I attempted make it relevant since some many misinformed posters were just pointing fingers and making false statements about BW in this thread.
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On October 30 2013 06:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 05:29 Ctone23 wrote:On October 30 2013 04:11 BisuDagger wrote:On October 30 2013 04:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:58 Squat wrote:On October 30 2013 03:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 30 2013 03:36 Grumbels wrote:On October 30 2013 02:14 RampancyTW wrote:On October 30 2013 01:45 Squat wrote:There isn't anything wrong with the current dynamics, as pro games are now showing. I disagree, I think the progames even from WCS aren't as good in this aspect as they could or should be. ...For arbitrary reasons that you have yet to specify beyond just saying it wasn't good enough for you. Watch brood war and compare the games. *Watches Flash turtle until 200-200 and roll random protoss* Whoa? Mech in BW works nothing like an Sc2 deathball, it's extremely positional and clumping up and moving forwards is a death sentence. It's built around area control and multiple lines of defense, with constant vulture harassment to slow protoss down. Yep, yet it is essentially 3 base turtle until 200-200 into rolling over protoss. Not with deathball, but with large map, that is just slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly moves across the map. There is no point in anyone replying to this guy at this point. You don't take the time to understand BW. You just want to point fingers at something else to offend people. It's not working and it's a waste of your energy. If you want to understand BW mech so you can provide argument there is a generous amount of kind BW fans in the BW section of TL that will provide you with ample information so you can come back to this thread with out looking so droll. I don't see the correlation with BW and this thread? BW and SC2 are different engines entirely, this thread continues to get thrown off course. The deathball "issue" or however you want to describe it, is something that will continue to play out as the game continues to evolve. The highest level seems to be settling down a bit in terms of a deathball, so from my point of view, things seem on the up.. I'm not sure why you are saying this to me. I didn't bring BW up. I attempted make it relevant since some many misinformed posters were just pointing fingers and making false statements about BW in this thread.
Wasn't trying to point a finger at you or anything. You were saying not to listen to that guy and to research BW before coming back to the thread, but I now realize you only said that due to his misinformed comments.
Apologies.
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