• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:52
CEST 10:52
KST 17:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20256Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced21BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time I offer completely free coaching services Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 651 users

Choya says team will continue, criticizes WCS system (TIG)…

Forum Index > SC2 General
500 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 26 Next All
oDieN[Siege]
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2904 Posts
October 02 2013 14:00 GMT
#201
choya couldn't have said this any any better, imo. Good read.
말크 : ^_^~ NeO)GabuAt, vGODieN
KaiserJohan
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1808 Posts
October 02 2013 14:00 GMT
#202
I miss watching MLGs with their american/european scene players WCS EU and Dreamhack is still pretty good, but that's it for me.
England will fight to the last American
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1310 Posts
October 02 2013 14:01 GMT
#203
On October 02 2013 22:48 hypercube wrote:
People overinvested in SC2 because there was a small chance it would become huge. If a game took off around the world the same way BW did in Korea we would have a multibillion dollar business and being there first would be a nice advantage.

So they took a risk for a small chance of a huge paycheck. That didn't happen. SC2 isn't the esport that's going to go mainstream around the world. So the people who were betting on that are starting to deinvest and look for the next big thing.

A few hundred thousand fans worldwide cannot support 200 professional players. That doesn't work in any sport. It's not so much that SC2 is dying rather than the infrastructure was based around a much larger fanbase. Now that the fanbase has become smaller (in Korea compared to BW) or didn't increase as much as some people hoped in the rest of the world the team infrastructure has to follow suit.


This nails it, and is a much more realistic perspective than throwing out whatever current meme-of-the-day is. Also consider that the player base in Korea doubled (Kespa + eSF) for a game where the fan base was decreasing at the same time. The numbers simply do not add up, and something has to give.
STX Fighting!
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
October 02 2013 14:01 GMT
#204
On October 02 2013 23:00 KaiserJohan wrote:
I miss watching MLGs with their american/european scene players WCS EU and Dreamhack is still pretty good, but that's it for me.


Thats just nostalgia for you. In the end in the MLGs there were IdrA, Huk and maybe another one in the top 16. But other than that it was koreans and koreans only. In WCS EU for example I see a lot of different players and imho thats a great thing.

WCS EU has been the best thing happening to us in EU next to Dreamhack, which is still unbeaten imho.
BuzzKillington
Profile Joined September 2013
United States47 Posts
October 02 2013 14:03 GMT
#205
On October 02 2013 22:49 looken wrote:
demand determines supply. too many teams for too little demand? sponsors will pull out, teams will die. end of story. now why is demand declining? that's the real question here. but if someone actually belives it's all WCS/ Blizzards fault he's extremely naive and/or has no clue about economics...


Oh my, Economics! What's that, something to do with money, right? You must be really smart to understand such kind of things, I bet your GPA is 4.0
TaishiCi
Profile Joined September 2013
Korea (South)211 Posts
October 02 2013 14:04 GMT
#206
On October 02 2013 22:28 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
start looking into other scenes boys.. see their profit model and tournament structure. blizzard really fucked up.

ive always been a proponent of switching whoever is on the lead of sc2. unless some critical changes are made, these dudes will make money off of bleeding players.


Been trying different games for a while.
Had a little retro phase with emulators and GTA kept me busy.
Recently been playing Rome 2 total war, they have a pretty big modding community that does really neat things.
I found that I can't stand any type of MOBA and FPS.

I continue to watch streams once in a while, but I don't have a GOM pass anymore.
I still play somewhat regularly, but I'm a league lower and usually have lots of bonus pool stacked.
I'll probably come back after the NFL season ends. See you in February.
Dae Han Min Gook Man Sae!!!
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
October 02 2013 14:04 GMT
#207
On October 02 2013 22:58 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:54 KeksX wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:45 JustPassingBy wrote:
On October 02 2013 20:49 KeksX wrote:
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D


I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!


But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there?
All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.


Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!


You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that


Because DH and IEM are hosted in different cities once per year. And they aren't just for SC2, DH is a big LAN, gaming festival and IEM piggybacks on a lot of computer conventions and expos.

The Korean market is probably not big enough to make weekend tournaments like DH/IEM economically feasible.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 02 2013 14:04 GMT
#208
On October 02 2013 22:52 Prog455 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:18 Prog455 wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote:
sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.

This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.

Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.


SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.

It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.

I love how people cite "fundamental flaws" with the gameplay in every threat that has any bad news related to SC2. Yet they all just parrot the vague points that people have been vaguely quoting for years. It has little to do with the topic, but let's bring it up anyways because it sounds good.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
October 02 2013 14:04 GMT
#209
I mean he does have a point. GSL and OSL used to be distinct tournaments, and I think a lot of us thought WCS would be separate. Instead, WCS took over the tournaments and lowered the prize pool for some unknown reason. Really a shame.
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
October 02 2013 14:05 GMT
#210
On October 02 2013 22:58 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:54 KeksX wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:45 JustPassingBy wrote:
On October 02 2013 20:49 KeksX wrote:
On October 02 2013 20:48 JustPassingBy wrote:
Dunno why people are only complaining about WCS, WCS EU is totally awesome. I have never seen so many up and coming players than right now! :D


I think Choya is mainly talking about WCS KR, which pretty much took over everything. It's only WCS now for them, and thats just bad. I really hope for the next year WCS goes a different path!


But as far as I know nothing is hindering OGN to make their own league while GSL handles WCS, or is there?
All they need to do is some bit of scheduling magic so they don't broadcast at the same time. Same goes vice versa.


Yes there is. Money. Blizzard always supported GSL, for example. You need a ton of money to start off something like this on your own!


You say "start off", as if OGN never did "something like this" before... I have many fond memories of past OSLs that say otherwise. DH and IEM (though that is also organized by ESL), show how tournaments can coexists with WCS, I don't get it why the Korean scene does not manage something like that


Back then OGN and MBC had A TON of huge sponsors. There was ALWAYS a major company behind that.

And even then MBC had to close sooner or later, so I don't think you can compare "back then" with "now". Things changed, and not always for the better.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
October 02 2013 14:06 GMT
#211
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
October 02 2013 14:09 GMT
#212
I think region lock would be good because then it would not only cut costs for Korean teams seeing how it would cut down on expenses for sponsors in flights and hotels but also encourage local tournaments as opposed to goign to other regions... which some of the korean pros do this because they have a higher chance at winning and making money at other tournaments where if you make more tournaments in the area and sponsors save massive amounts of money on hotel stay flihgts etc... they might even be able to sponsor some of these events for pros to compete in for their respective areas....
Otolia
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
France5805 Posts
October 02 2013 14:10 GMT
#213
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote:
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.

Because blaming your own shortcomings (the team poor long-term management) or blaming superiors (OGN, GOM or KeSPA) isn't accepted.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 02 2013 14:12 GMT
#214
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote:
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.

I think there is some truth to that. I don't think all the teams are used to finding sponsors and blame WCS, instead of looking to how their team is run. At the end of the day, a lot of theses Korean teams need to find a way I support themselves and some of them might fail.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-02 14:14:37
October 02 2013 14:13 GMT
#215
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote:
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.

Probably because without Blizzard interfering they managed to make BW bigger than SC2 never was. And they had a working system that really could support progamers.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-02 14:17:08
October 02 2013 14:16 GMT
#216
On October 02 2013 22:52 Prog455 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:32 Plansix wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:18 Prog455 wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:14 whirlpool wrote:
sc2 hots needs to die immediately, so blizzard can pick up the pieces, learn from it to build lotv.

This is not exactly they way i would have put it, but in the long run i definitely think that SC2 would benefit from a complete overhaul.

Team loses it's only sponsor, so Blizzard should overhaul the game play of SC2? I am sure the sponsor didn't give a shit about units clumping.


SC2 does not need an overhaul because a few teams are losing sponsors. SC2 needs an overhaul because there is several inherent flaws in the game that should have been dealt with long ago. And it just so happens that we are currently going through a rough time to say the least, which makes it a perfect time to rethink the game.

It is possible that the sponsors didn't give a shit about units clumping, but they sure as hell give a shit about viewer numbers in free fall.

I agree with this. Sc2 has not been fun to play for years. Hots only made it more irritating to play, not less
shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
October 02 2013 14:16 GMT
#217
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote:
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.


maybe blizz should not have shut down BW and gave half of the cash to kespa to continue the BW leagues...just a thought.
you can lead a horse to water, but...

and maybe the water's not very tasty, who knows?
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 02 2013 14:17 GMT
#218
On October 02 2013 23:13 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 23:06 Bagi wrote:
Is it just me or is Blizzard and WCS a convenient scapegoat for Koreans? What makes them actually think their scene with very little viewership would be able to support WCS + GSL/OSL and thus give "steady prize money" to a hugely bloated scene? It's just such an naive approach to things.

Probably because without Blizzard interfering they managed to make BW bigger than SC2 never was. And they had a working system that really could support progamers.

With government support, huge sponsorships and zero competition from other games. It's easy to be the top dog when your the only one in town.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
October 02 2013 14:17 GMT
#219
On October 02 2013 23:09 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I think region lock would be good because then it would not only cut costs for Korean teams seeing how it would cut down on expenses for sponsors in flights and hotels but also encourage local tournaments as opposed to goign to other regions... which some of the korean pros do this because they have a higher chance at winning and making money at other tournaments where if you make more tournaments in the area and sponsors save massive amounts of money on hotel stay flihgts etc... they might even be able to sponsor some of these events for pros to compete in for their respective areas....


I am not sure how region lock makes more local tournaments. Players are joining foreign teams because they want to go to foreign events. And the lack of local events is one of the major reasons. The local demand is just not big enough for Korean sponsors to sponsor a tournament.
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
October 02 2013 14:18 GMT
#220
Zezamer makes a very good point.... If it ain't broke don't fix it? Instead they threw a wrench into the gears and shutdown their system creating what they thought would be a better system in the end crushed a lot of the scene
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 26 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 235
ProTech73
IndyStarCraft 50
Rex 9
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4390
Hyuk 3669
firebathero 1861
Hyun 835
Larva 690
Backho 143
EffOrt 103
Mind 99
Noble 79
zelot 71
[ Show more ]
scan(afreeca) 52
ZerO 41
Free 40
Bale 32
sorry 24
soO 21
Sacsri 16
NaDa 10
IntoTheRainbow 10
Sharp 8
yabsab 6
Shinee 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe464
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K732
shoxiejesuss87
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor244
Other Games
gofns6699
Happy382
SortOf164
ZerO(Twitch)3
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 14
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH320
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2187
• WagamamaTV142
Upcoming Events
FEL
8m
Krystianer vs sOs
SKillous vs ArT
MaNa vs Elazer
Spirit vs Gerald
Clem vs TBD
uThermal vs TBD
Reynor vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5h 8m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
9h 8m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.