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On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT.
Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units.
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Most of these changes seem somewhat reasonable at least, but
Dark Templar movement speed increased from 2.813 to 3.375
What in the world? Those ninja things are already damn hard to catch. That new speed would make DT one of the fastest ground units in the game.
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On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units.
The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers.
Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner.
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Love the roach idea. Sad to see people thumbs-up the Terran buff, thumbs-down the Protoss buff. Really? Not a fan of DTs myself, but the Oracle cost-change seems pretty reasonable.
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The DT speed buff seems so fun.
Flying around with speed warp prisms dropping speed DTs just seems too fun to ever play any race but Protoss from now on.
Oracle change is useless. Oracles are terrible after the early game, this is just going to make oracle all-ins and proxy stargates even better. Bad.
Love the roach change. May make watching ZvZ much more entertaining.
I like virtually all the mech changes. The tank attack speed might not make them so horrendous vs charge zealots.
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Dear bronze fellows, welcome to the league of dts 
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On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner.
MC might be individually the highest but all Terran winners combined beat out all Protoss winners combined quite handily.
Regardless, a lot of these changes aren't focused on improving win rates (the game, balance wise, is in an okay position). They're focused on improving diversity which might end up having the exact opposite effect balancing out win rates (hence the timing of the proposed patch) With a lot of drastic changes it might be a little bit turbulent for a while after the patch goes through.
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On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner.
Exactly. That nerf is what I am proposing in the post that you quoted. However, you have to do it smart, look at it from the perspective of the average sc2 protoss player/fan. You have to convince him that what you are doing is good for his race while in reality you are nerfing it into the ground to stop the dominance of top protoss players while increasing the overall stability of the race and giving it options. The goal is to keep protoss players playing by increasing the range of options while diminishing the randomness of protoss wins at the top level.
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On September 24 2013 13:22 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner. MC might be individually the highest but all Terran winners combined beat out all Protoss winners combined quite handily. Regardless, a lot of these changes aren't focused on improving win rates (the game, balance wise, is in an okay position). They're focused on improving diversity which might end up having the exact opposite effect balancing out win rates (hence the timing of the proposed patch) With a lot of drastic changes it might be a little bit turbulent for a while after the patch goes through.
Well, since Protoss only looking at who 'wins' the tournament. Then might as well just look the #1 overall earner, right? #2-#10 don't matter. That is what I am trying to say. It would be better to look at say Ro8 balance than winner since when you get to that level, there are a lot more factors in play.
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On September 24 2013 13:24 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner. Exactly. That nerf is what I am proposing in the post that you quoted. However, you have to do it smart, look at it from the perspective of the average sc2 protoss player/fan. You have to convince him that what you are doing is good for his race while in reality you are nerfing it into the ground to stop the dominance of top protoss players while increasing the overall stability of the race and giving it options. The goal is to keep protoss players playing by increasing the range of options while diminishing the randomness of protoss wins at the top level.
So basically you are telling terran players that they need to play like Inno or Taeja, else you will lose to P? I know zerg players are frustrated playing against 4M. But Terrans have been playing against that dual AoE deathball in PvT since WoL...
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The right way to make oracles useful beyond the early game is to, imo, trade hp for more shields.
Reasoning: oracles arent useful beyond early game because they will pretty much always take hp damage every time they are under attack, because of their low shields and weird handling. Thus, the longer the game goes on, the less useful oracles will be since their damage cannot be repaired, unlike medivac drops or muta harass. This does not simply impact their harassment capabilities, but their ability to cast revelations without getting killed as well. Protosses are not gonna build more oracles in mid/late game either, because that will eat into the gas for templars/colossi/upgrades.
The only thing this buff is going to encourage is deadlier oracle/gateway all ins.
And it's not like we can buff the acceleration and change oracle handling either, since they will be way to hard to kill/scare away during the early stages of the game.
Thus giving them regenerative health is the best way of remedying that, imo
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On September 24 2013 13:30 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:24 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner. Exactly. That nerf is what I am proposing in the post that you quoted. However, you have to do it smart, look at it from the perspective of the average sc2 protoss player/fan. You have to convince him that what you are doing is good for his race while in reality you are nerfing it into the ground to stop the dominance of top protoss players while increasing the overall stability of the race and giving it options. The goal is to keep protoss players playing by increasing the range of options while diminishing the randomness of protoss wins at the top level. So basically you are telling terran players that they need to play like Inno or Taeja, else you will lose to P?
What?? No.. How did you.. from.. Ok, look. What I am saying is this: P is a less important race then both Z and T right? It is fundamentally flawed. It should be finishing last in everything. However, it has a one central asset that allows top P players to beat their mechanically and strategically superior T and Z opponents, and that is the power of their momentum created by the power of their high damage units at any point of the game. All ins, storms, oracles, void rays, ect, all these P things make it so that P rolls through or rolls over and dies. The goal therefore should be to fool protoss players into thinking that a change to their race is giving them more options and stability while in reality making it so that they become far more predictable in the eyes of equal terran and zerg players. I believe that this can be done.
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In relation to the changes: keep them for now then revert them later along with a general nerf to MSC and maybe void rays.
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On September 24 2013 13:42 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:30 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:24 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner. Exactly. That nerf is what I am proposing in the post that you quoted. However, you have to do it smart, look at it from the perspective of the average sc2 protoss player/fan. You have to convince him that what you are doing is good for his race while in reality you are nerfing it into the ground to stop the dominance of top protoss players while increasing the overall stability of the race and giving it options. The goal is to keep protoss players playing by increasing the range of options while diminishing the randomness of protoss wins at the top level. So basically you are telling terran players that they need to play like Inno or Taeja, else you will lose to P? What?? No.. How did you.. from.. Ok, look. What I am saying is this: P is a less important race then both Z and T right? It is fundamentally flawed. It should be finishing last in everything. However, it has a one central asset that allows top P players to beat their mechanically and strategically superior T and Z opponents, and that is the power of their momentum created by the power of their high damage units at any point of the game. All ins, storms, oracles, void rays, ect, all these P things make it so that P rolls through or rolls over and dies. The goal therefore should be to fool protoss players into thinking that a change to their race is giving them more options and stability while in reality making it so that they become far more predictable in the eyes of equal terran and zerg players. I believe that this can be done.
I am not sure why you feel that P in the least important race. Actually, what makes P so powerful vs T is the ability to get that fast upgrade 2 AoE comp out quickly due to the fact that MSC handles all the early pressure. If you look at Inno v P, he doesn't even bother to drop and just SCV pulls before both AoEs are done. This is boring for all players including P and T players. The MSC is basically the Queen buff revisited where zergs was allowed to tech to infestor/BL with little risk. And as with BL/infestor, although it isn't impossible to win. 1-2 good fungals (1-2 good storms) and T cannot recover.
I am all for giving P more options via DTs or oracles BUT that would mean Ts would even have to play safer (more turrets) which means P have more time to get their AoEs.
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On September 24 2013 13:47 MrLightning wrote:
In relation to the changes: keep them for now then revert them later along with a general nerf to MSC and maybe void rays.
So you want to hit Ps with 4 nerfs (DT, oracles, MSC, voids)? I am sure that would go over well... Maybe you pacify the Ps now with the 2 'buffs' but not sure how you can hand them 4 nerfs at the same time...
Why not buff DT and oracles along with MSC nerf now? Terrans are getting 2 buffs and 1 nerf...
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Russian Federation262 Posts
BEST balance changes in a past year!
DK, i love you!
But seems like DT buff and Oracle buff are very strange for Z because DT's will escape Overseer so fast and Oracle harass will hurt Mid-game ZvP too.
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Cool patch, but they are crazy if they think reducing the gas cost of the oracle is going to encourage anything but early game cheese.
Oracles arent used in the late game because there are just way better options... They have no splash and die instantly to Bio/Hydras
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Lol, they might kill foreign Terrans in competitive scene with this patch.
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On September 24 2013 13:50 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:42 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 13:30 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:24 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 13:14 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 13:08 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:54 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. Which has a movement speed of 2.75. That's slower than the current DT. Hence they fly and dts do not. Protoss needs something like this dt buff to inspire confidence. A reason to continue to play as protoss in light of all the tvt and tvz finals in all major tournaments. Throw them a temporary bone to even out the win/loss rates while working on tvz because that is the more important match up. After tvz is sorted then nerf the MSC into oblivion and restore original dt/oracle so that the protoss have to continue to use these units. The weird thing is, Ps are winning in the win/loss rates (especially vs Ts)... But the top terrans just pull through in big tournaments. P has 6 in Ro16 in Korea. 2 Ps took top 4 in IEM Korea Qualifiers. 2 Ps took top 3 in WCG Korea Qualifiers. Because if we are just going to focus on just the 'winner' of tournaments, then Ps need a nerf because MC is still the #1 earner. Exactly. That nerf is what I am proposing in the post that you quoted. However, you have to do it smart, look at it from the perspective of the average sc2 protoss player/fan. You have to convince him that what you are doing is good for his race while in reality you are nerfing it into the ground to stop the dominance of top protoss players while increasing the overall stability of the race and giving it options. The goal is to keep protoss players playing by increasing the range of options while diminishing the randomness of protoss wins at the top level. So basically you are telling terran players that they need to play like Inno or Taeja, else you will lose to P? What?? No.. How did you.. from.. Ok, look. What I am saying is this: P is a less important race then both Z and T right? It is fundamentally flawed. It should be finishing last in everything. However, it has a one central asset that allows top P players to beat their mechanically and strategically superior T and Z opponents, and that is the power of their momentum created by the power of their high damage units at any point of the game. All ins, storms, oracles, void rays, ect, all these P things make it so that P rolls through or rolls over and dies. The goal therefore should be to fool protoss players into thinking that a change to their race is giving them more options and stability while in reality making it so that they become far more predictable in the eyes of equal terran and zerg players. I believe that this can be done. I am not sure why you feel that P in the least important race. Actually, what makes P so powerful vs T is the ability to get that fast upgrade 2 AoE comp out quickly due to the fact that MSC handles all the early pressure. If you look at Inno v P, he doesn't even bother to drop and just SCV pulls before both AoEs are done. This is boring for all players including P and T players. The MSC is basically the Queen buff revisited where zergs was allowed to tech to infestor/BL with little risk. And as with BL/infestor, although it isn't impossible to win. 1-2 good fungals (1-2 good storms) and T cannot recover. I am all for giving P more options via DTs or oracles BUT that would mean Ts would even have to play safer (more turrets) which means P have more time to get their AoEs.
You say that P has equal importance then ague that P should not be allowed to tech to aoe as easily as it does now. I agree with your argument but I am confused when you say that P is not unimportant, because without that aoe damage P becomes a punching bag for T and Z and hence least important. Dts and oracle are not aoe damage. Buff them FOR NOW. Then (am I repeating myself?) REVERT the changes after P has incorporated dts and oracles in their play and strategies (cheese or late game). NERF the stuff the allows P to turtle to aoe damage (before or concurrently with the reverts to dts and oracles im not sure) that is MSC for terran and void rays for zerg. That way protoss has to continue to use a variety of units to try to do something to shield their tech into aoe. However, you and I know that ultimately what has happened is that protoss has become weaker overall as it should be.
Edit: The result: P will have no choice but to continue to use dts and oracles that they have now (because of the revert) as they can no longer rely on MSC and void rays in defensive play (because of the nerf).
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EPT
