• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:11
CEST 03:11
KST 10:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202547RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 520 users

6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 25

Forum Index > SC2 General
1350 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 68 Next
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
September 23 2013 21:58 GMT
#481
Wow, so the splash are of the WM will be even less than 40% of what it previously was! :o
gingerfluffmuff
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria4570 Posts
September 23 2013 22:01 GMT
#482
On September 24 2013 06:53 Jerom wrote:
Also, for mech actually being viable, the viper and immortal need to be looked at, and maybe the swarm hosts aswell. They all counter siege tanks too hard.

There are so many anti mech units, cant change them all. No way we will see mech in Code S before LotV.
・゚✧:・゚+..。✧・゚:・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚ ゜・:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING *・゜・:・゚✧:・゚✧。゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:・゜・:・゚✧::・・:・゚・゚
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
September 23 2013 22:01 GMT
#483
On September 24 2013 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:53 Jerom wrote:
Am I the only one who would love to see the oracle get that spell that they initially proposed. The one with which it can stop static defenses from firing? That'd at least solve the fact that they are unusable in the lategame. Then maybe slightly buff their hitpoint and reduce their damage, or give them a lategame hitpoints/armor upgrade on the fleat beacon.

The dt probably needs some sort of lategame upgrade at the dark shrine. Maybe something like blink, but then in the way it works in dota, where you can't blink if you have been attacked in the last couple of seconds. atm lategame dts are pretty much pure suicide units, this way the better player can save his dts by paying attention to them. This could be very broken though.

I'd also love to see some BC buff (maybe we need to look at tempest hard countering them so badly) and a serious carrier buff (build time, maybe giving them more interceptors at start + removing the upgrade). Also, for mech actually being viable, the viper and immortal need to be looked at, and maybe the swarm hosts aswell. They all counter siege tanks too hard.


This post has Terran written all over it.

Really? I'm proposing 3 protoss buffs... That I don't agree with the current buffs to protoss is just because I don't think they'd accomplish anything more than coin flippy cheese, not that I'm biased or sth.
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
September 23 2013 22:05 GMT
#484
On September 24 2013 06:56 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:48 Whatson wrote:
On September 24 2013 06:48 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I dont get how 10% faster firing (1/0.9 more dps) tanks can equalize the reduction of the mine splash area from 3.06 to 1.21. Thats only 40% of the original area --> 60% lost. lol.

It's blizzard


If you read the OP they stated they wanted there to be a nice mixture of mines + tanks to go along with bio.

So essentially we have WMs that do less than half damage and slightly better tanks. Yeah definitely using that.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
September 23 2013 22:05 GMT
#485
On September 24 2013 07:01 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:53 Jerom wrote:
Also, for mech actually being viable, the viper and immortal need to be looked at, and maybe the swarm hosts aswell. They all counter siege tanks too hard.

There are so many anti mech units, cant change them all. No way we will see mech in Code S before LotV.

I'd argue you don't really need to change that many. vP it's not *so* bad, removing the bio tag on hellbats would probably go a long way. Then blinding cloud just desperately needs a redesign aswell as SHs imo(make them more movement orientated rather than creep/"static" defense/sh crawl).
gingerfluffmuff
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria4570 Posts
September 23 2013 22:05 GMT
#486
On September 24 2013 06:56 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:48 Whatson wrote:
On September 24 2013 06:48 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I dont get how 10% faster firing (1/0.9 more dps) tanks can equalize the reduction of the mine splash area from 3.06 to 1.21. Thats only 40% of the original area --> 60% lost. lol.

It's blizzard


If you read the OP they stated they wanted there to be a nice mixture of mines + tanks to go along with bio.

Thats the 2nd thing i wonder about: How should that even work? Flying the tanks in with medivacs? Leap frogging? Tanks are strong when they are set up, but the way is long to the Zs 4th and full of dangers.
・゚✧:・゚+..。✧・゚:・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚ ゜・:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING *・゜・:・゚✧:・゚✧。゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:・゜・:・゚✧::・・:・゚・゚
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
September 23 2013 22:06 GMT
#487
On September 24 2013 07:01 Jerom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
On September 24 2013 06:53 Jerom wrote:
Am I the only one who would love to see the oracle get that spell that they initially proposed. The one with which it can stop static defenses from firing? That'd at least solve the fact that they are unusable in the lategame. Then maybe slightly buff their hitpoint and reduce their damage, or give them a lategame hitpoints/armor upgrade on the fleat beacon.

The dt probably needs some sort of lategame upgrade at the dark shrine. Maybe something like blink, but then in the way it works in dota, where you can't blink if you have been attacked in the last couple of seconds. atm lategame dts are pretty much pure suicide units, this way the better player can save his dts by paying attention to them. This could be very broken though.

I'd also love to see some BC buff (maybe we need to look at tempest hard countering them so badly) and a serious carrier buff (build time, maybe giving them more interceptors at start + removing the upgrade). Also, for mech actually being viable, the viper and immortal need to be looked at, and maybe the swarm hosts aswell. They all counter siege tanks too hard.


This post has Terran written all over it.

Really? I'm proposing 3 protoss buffs... That I don't agree with the current buffs to protoss is just because I don't think they'd accomplish anything more than coin flippy cheese, not that I'm biased or sth.


Sorry, but proposing anything that already existed in bw is pointless, I thought blizzard already made it clear by now.
PerSe
Profile Joined June 2013
United Kingdom550 Posts
September 23 2013 22:06 GMT
#488
WM nerf was a tad bit harsh, but they can always re-buff it later, but it was a needed change. Even if you don't believe WM are imba (they were), they were killing the diversity of T-play. If tanks are used more in TvZ, we'll see Zergs use different units as well: i.e viper.
B1itZZ
Profile Joined July 2012
United Kingdom70 Posts
September 23 2013 22:08 GMT
#489
I would love to see more Tank and Widow Mine combinations if they can make it work. Would make for much more interesting games.
gingerfluffmuff
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria4570 Posts
September 23 2013 22:12 GMT
#490
On September 24 2013 07:06 PerSe wrote:
WM nerf was a tad bit harsh, but they can always re-buff it later, but it was a needed change. Even if you don't believe WM are imba (they were), they were killing the diversity of T-play. If tanks are used more in TvZ, we'll see Zergs use different units as well: i.e viper.

Imo buffed tanks could kill the occasional roach hydra play (more by being build more often not because of the 10% ias buff).
・゚✧:・゚+..。✧・゚:・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚ ゜・:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING *・゜・:・゚✧:・゚✧。゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:・゜・:・゚✧::・・:・゚・゚
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 22:27:41
September 23 2013 22:13 GMT
#491
On September 24 2013 05:32 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote:
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7

Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters
.
Noooooooooooooo!

The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time.
Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything.


Oh come on falling, its a faster game and the siege tank was the only one who didn't speed up. It can fire it alittle quicker and we will all be ok.

The solution to that isn't to make everything else faster. That makes things even less microable.
The tank trades off mobility and rate of fire for raw damage. The damage is already evenly spread and weaker. By making the rate of fire faster (which I believe it already is faster) makes the unit more samey. Mech play is as far as I can tell unique to SC, so I'm glad they are finally looking at it. Increasing the rate of fire is an easy fix, but it doesn't add microability to the extent that a slower rate of fire, but more powerful would. Even looking at making turret direction and rotation count for more would be an interesting, but subtle change if they bumped up the damage value.

On a side note. I am also not in favour of combining mech and air upgrades. I have not idea whether it will improve the likihood of mech or air. Testing will discover that. What I do know that the more we get rid of upgrades, the more we lose a unique facet of the game. That is tech switching and it actually costing time and resources to tech switch. Unlike in Age of Empires where most of the upgrades are slightly better versions of the previous upgrades, SC has always had this interplay between units where one set was more powerful until an upgrade out which made the opposing units more powerful, until the next upgrade. So you had this back and forth. Plus the importance of +1 timings and all that.

Furthermore tech switches are important for hiding tech, and scouting which is good gamewise, but also builds tension for the viewer on whether the opponent will discover the switch in time. The more upgrades disappear or are combined, the harder it is to scout because builds start to look very similar. (Imagine if in BW the forge upgrades had combined with air upgrades. Late cyber core spinning can be a tip-off that a tech switch is incoming. If units need help, then they need help, but streamlining the game to get rid of upgrades is a net loss in my opinion.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Tosster
Profile Joined August 2011
Poland299 Posts
September 23 2013 22:13 GMT
#492
VERY good ideas! At last siege tanks and dt's!
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8230 Posts
September 23 2013 22:15 GMT
#493
Found the poll.. The game is already way too fast paced, and these Protoss buffs will make 1A even stronger than ever before. Reddit mentioned the Life vs Parting game speed mishap. Now my thoughts:

Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined

Um... What's the point of playing bio in TvT then? All I gotta do is play mech with mass Vikings and it's pretty much auto win. I'd rather see a reduction in costs for the attack upgrade.

Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1

This is a huge nerf to Terran, and while the splash radius may seem like a small nerf, it would apparently reduce the amount of units it hits from 9 to around 3 or so, according to Reddit. That is a HUGE nerf, and it'll basically force Terrans to stop using Widow Mines. Instead, I propose that the cost of Widow Mines be raised to 100/50, while reducing the splash radius to 1.7.

Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7

This will definitely make Seige Tanks more viable in TvP early game and TvZ. However, I'm not so sure that it will have a huge effect on the game.

Oracle cost decreased from 150/150 to 150/100

Yea.... No. Would a Terran player be able to get their defenses up in time, assuming they don't CC first? I don't think it'll be possible to defend this with CC first, but I'm not a progamer. Instead, I would give Oracles slightly more HP. They die off too easily.

Dark Templar movement speed increased from 2.813 to 3.375

Can easily outrun Overseers, Stim Marines, and scan zones... Big fail.

Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25

I think it'll make harassment more viable for Zerg players.
Lock0n
Profile Joined December 2012
United Kingdom184 Posts
September 23 2013 22:16 GMT
#494
Widow mine nerf isn't as big of a deal as people think - Good Zergs have learnt to drag mine shots into marines, less aoe just means less damage on both sides. If anything, mines will be better vs zerglings and ultras since they can't drag mine aoe into marine clumps any more.
Fus
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1112 Posts
September 23 2013 22:17 GMT
#495
I kinda like all changes tbh, we need more changes in sc2, but blizzard is often to afraid to try things. Implement em all! =D
NaNiwa | Innovation | Flash | DeMuslim ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
_SpiRaL_
Profile Joined December 2012
Afghanistan1636 Posts
September 23 2013 22:18 GMT
#496
David Kim once again showing he has no idea what subtle means. Changing radius from 1.75 to like 1.5 could be an enormous nerf. Lets see.....no wait change it so its 1/3 the previous radius after denying widow mines needed a nerf at all for so long.

David Kim I hope you read this: You realise every single one of these you have done for HoTs shows that you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are doing....
Red and yellow are all I see
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 22:24:23
September 23 2013 22:18 GMT
#497
On September 24 2013 06:43 NKexquisite wrote:
It's official. They don't know what to do anymore.


And casual players don`t know what they want....(aside from bitching)

There is way too many armchair game designers in this forum just theory crafting without anything to show or test. At least attempt to go into detail of the ramifications of said suggestions.
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
September 23 2013 22:18 GMT
#498
On September 24 2013 06:56 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 06:48 Whatson wrote:
On September 24 2013 06:48 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
I dont get how 10% faster firing (1/0.9 more dps) tanks can equalize the reduction of the mine splash area from 3.06 to 1.21. Thats only 40% of the original area --> 60% lost. lol.

It's blizzard


If you read the OP they stated they wanted there to be a nice mixture of mines + tanks to go along with bio.


Yeah, terrans usually get 1 reactor and 1 tech lab on their factories in TvZ, with the tech lab being for drilling claws. If terrans are already getting a factory with tech lab as part of standard play then it only would take a slight siege tank buff to bring it back into professional TvZ.
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
September 23 2013 22:19 GMT
#499
need to buff random yolo coinflip for protoss, yes thats what they need
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
Vestrel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada271 Posts
September 23 2013 22:24 GMT
#500
Oh god, please don't make DTs faster.
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 68 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 49m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 249
Livibee 91
RuFF_SC2 78
Ketroc 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 79
NaDa 35
Bale 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1101
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1556
Stewie2K320
taco 310
Coldzera 280
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox444
Other Games
summit1g13653
tarik_tv9168
Grubby2159
Day[9].tv987
JimRising 506
C9.Mang0182
ViBE159
Maynarde151
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1701
BasetradeTV49
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta63
• Hupsaiya 60
• RyuSc2 32
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift3863
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie1107
• Shiphtur212
Other Games
• Scarra1615
• Day9tv987
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
8h 49m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.