EPTThe campaign is all great and that but if you are not into that and only want to play and compete in tournaments the game is just way too expensive. The multiplayer part of SC2, should be somehow standalone. Personally I don't care about the campaign either.
StarCraft 2: What's The Problem - Page 25
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ReMoR
Denmark13 Posts
The campaign is all great and that but if you are not into that and only want to play and compete in tournaments the game is just way too expensive. The multiplayer part of SC2, should be somehow standalone. Personally I don't care about the campaign either. | ||
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eNtitY~
United States1293 Posts
BW is more exciting to watch and like Xeris said is less anti-climactic. Typically in SC2 if you win 1 major engagement (Especially in a mirror matchup) you are either very ahead or have won the game. This is not the case with BW (IE BeSt vs Jangi Bo3 the other day). Chat channels being more implemented and making the game more social is essential too. Although I don't think it will ever be as social as BW since you can have the ladder system find you games instead of spamming "2v2 Msg me ~~" in a channel while talking to people. Still, it's the right move IMO. | ||
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XupinatoR
Spain125 Posts
THIS! One of the things that really makes it boring to see big events is to see the same players all the time. And obviously they are koreans. I actually understand the reason they help koreans letting them join American or EU WCS, but honestly, this can hurt a lot. I mean, we want good players, thats for sure, but i also want players from my country, or at least my continent that i can cheer for. I mean, in football, for the world cup, it's not like Spain, the netherlands or any country with a good team can join the African Qualifier. They just put more places for europeans and less for african teams. I mean, maybe sometimes a good european country doesnt make it, a country that is better than the 5 African countrys that qualified, but thanks to those 5 African teams, they just have a whole Continent following the World Cup and the passion and the interest for football there grows, and then new players and viewers appear. On the other hand, here we have almost 16 koreans out of 16 players that are going to play in the World Finals, and this, even if the skill level is much higher like this, is very bad. | ||
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leakey
United States21 Posts
Through college and up until this past year I've played fighting games, but am trying to get back into SC with HoTS. The fighting game community is much smaller esports-wise than SC or LoL, but the social aspects are strong and it is not difficult to recruit new players because you are constantly interacting face to face. Bnet needs to feel more "face to face" and less "everyone else is my next random ladder opponent". Pumping up local region tournaments would be a huge boost as well. Every year, fighting game players look forward to EVO. It's like the Superbowl for the FGC and brings competitors together from all over the world to compete on equal footing. Trying to break into the SC scene again, I have no idea who many of these players are, and it's so difficult to meet people and get a solid "play a game > chat and have fun > play a game" type experience. There is no way for me to talk with the person I just played with, and that's sad. Again, great post. As a born-again new player, I agree that Blizzard should take these into consideration  | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
First reaction: It looks boring. Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it. Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units. If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2! This lasts for about 6-7 months until Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead. And its over. How to fix it. + Show Spoiler + Unranked is not good enough for casuals. We need a casual mode. Which does the following, 1) Buildings are automatically assigned to the users preselected hotkeys so they don't get overwhelmed. 2) You can have a build order guide you through your progression while playing online multiplayer in casual mode. Telling you what to make and when during early game. (Newbies have no idea what they should be doing, they need guidance or they just quit) 3) If click on enemy units, you can bring up information on what units you can make to counter it (ingame. Newbies are always confused about units functions and how to kill them). 4) if you click on an enemy building, you can bring up information what buildings it can make (ingame. Newbies scout but have no idea what they have learnt. They always ask you what a enemy building does). 5) Units can be split into predefined formations (ball, split or line) using a hotkey. (They can't split or control their units, they need an easier option) 6) A more functional Grid hotkey setup is the default hotkeys. (Newbies get so lost and confused using standard hotkeys) 6) Both players can agree to turn off fog of war. (Newbies have no idea where to go, how to scout, they need a simplier option) | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote: My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2. First reaction: It looks boring. Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it. Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units. If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2! This lasts for about 6-7 months until Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead. And its over. But! Uh... Well... Uh... Damn.... Accurate beyond reason  I'm just imagining what it would be like trying to get them to play Broodwar.... | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: But! Uh... Well... Uh... Damn.... Accurate beyond reason I'm just imagining what it would be like trying to get them to play Broodwar.... starcraft is not just 1v1... even in broodwar i just played custom games.. if you make people think starcraft 2 is just 1v1 im sure they will all quit pretty fast | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:49 GizmoPT wrote: starcraft is not just 1v1... even in broodwar i just played custom games.. if you make people think starcraft 2 is just 1v1 im sure they will all quit pretty fast I was trying to get play buddies to game with. Broodwar was just non-stop Lurker Defense, A Day at School, 3v5 comp stomps, and other custom games. My friend LOVED playing customs but hated that he felt like a weaker player since I mostly played on ladder. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:49 GizmoPT wrote: starcraft is not just 1v1... even in broodwar i just played custom games.. if you make people think starcraft 2 is just 1v1 im sure they will all quit pretty fast Starcraft 64 remained one of the most expensive used N64 cartridges for several years. Lots of people love Starcraft that have zero interest in playing multiplayer. They might watch it though. Most of the guys i knew who played SC64 and never touched multi-player had a reasonable understanding of what was going on in The top level Brood War games. If you think the 15 year old fan girls had the tech-tree memorized along with all the variations of build order timings based upon main base rush distance... u guys are crazy. They just enjoyed the explosions and the obvious stuff that any one who goes through the campaign can pick up on. In its own right its an interesting game. the "action" in SC2 is entertaining enough in its own right. Same applies to baseball or texas hold'em poker. u guys are complaining the game doesn't "look fun enough". And yet, a card turning over in Hold 'em manages to be featured on cable sports tv. commentator: "omg omg omg.. the 5 of spades ... Negreanu is out of the tourney!!!!!", then we cut to a shot of Negreanu doing a double face palm. "omg the 5 of spades has sealed his fate!!" and prior to 1995 card games of any kind on television were non-existent. its all in the presentation.. .SC2 has enough going for it. its up to the live event promoters to take it that next step. it'll have to be Blizzard making that happen though...as Xeris noted, no other event promoters have the wherewithall to pull it off. guys, its time to hold your nose.. and give KESPA a tonne of credit for what they pulled off with Brood War. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:01 lamprey1 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Starcraft 64 remained one of the most expensive used N64 cartridges for several years. Lots of people love Starcraft that have zero interest in playing multiplayer. They might watch it though. Most of the guys i knew who played SC64 and never touched multi-player had a reasonable understanding of what was going on in The top level Brood War games. If you think the 15 year old fan girls had the tech-tree memorized along with all the variations of build order timings based upon main base rush distance... u guys are crazy. They just enjoyed the explosions and the obvious stuff that any one who goes through the campaign can pick up on. In its own right its an interesting game. Same applies to baseball or texas hold'em poker. u guys are complaining the game doesn't "look fun enough". And yet, a card turning over in Hold 'em manages to be featured on cable sports tv. commentator: "omg omg omg.. the 5 of spades ... Negreanu is out of the tourney!!!!!", then we cut to a shot of Negreanu doing a double face palm. its all in the presentation.. .SC2 has enough going for it. its up to the live event promoters to take it that next step. + Show Spoiler + it'll have to be Blizzard making that happen though...as Xeris noted, no other event promoters have the wherewithall to I am not complaining about the game presentation at all. I am just relaying my experience with trying to introduce new players. I have introduced over 12 people to the game, all of them said it looked boring. Not my opinion. Nearly always, I can't I can't even get people to try it for free. When I do, the learning curve is so ridiculously high, they complain that its harder then going to work, it feels like a chore, nothing is explained, they need to find obscure websites just to learn the basics, and write down a to do list (build order) just to not die. The game is seriously broken in its ability to slowly introduce players to the game mechanics. I am not saying dumb down the mechanics for the pros, but make a mode that is really ridiculously easy for the noobs, and separate it from the normal ladder. Let them play Multiplayer with massive handicaps, workers which when idle for 30 seconds go back to work (this frustrates the hell out of newbies), basic build orders tutorials helping them during a multiplayer game, buildings automatically bound to hotkeys, easily accessible unit/building information ( click on an enemy unit/building and it will tell you its counters/production capabilities), much larger vision spheres on units (less fog of war), much lower supply count (they dont need to try and fight a 200 supply army), automated supply depots/pylons/overlords. Etc. Whatever lets them start blowing up units as quick as possible and enjoying battles. So many times, they quit before they even get to attack, they are so overwhelmed. A casual introductionary multiplayer unranked newbie mode. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
no need to make "casual ladder", unranked is enough. i'd prefer having unranked allow league/skill choosing though. above all they really need to rework the game so its micro focused like marine vs bane instead of spell based like force field, and a lot less emphasis on counter/unit composition. micro should be able to overcome some counter relationship like marine vs lurker, marine vs bane, vulture/mine vs dragoon. the shredder unit idea (and colossus) is the epitome of how sc2 units should not be. | ||
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Dingodile
4132 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:00 XupinatoR wrote: "Maybe 1 non Korean, and 7-8 of the top Koreans. " THIS! One of the things that really makes it boring to see big events is to see the same players all the time. And obviously they are koreans. I actually understand the reason they help koreans letting them join American or EU WCS, but honestly, this can hurt a lot. I mean, we want good players, thats for sure, but i also want players from my country, or at least my continent that i can cheer for. I mean, in football, for the world cup, it's not like Spain, the netherlands or any country with a good team can join the African Qualifier. They just put more places for europeans and less for african teams. I mean, maybe sometimes a good european country doesnt make it, a country that is better than the 5 African countrys that qualified, but thanks to those 5 African teams, they just have a whole Continent following the World Cup and the passion and the interest for football there grows, and then new players and viewers appear. On the other hand, here we have almost 16 koreans out of 16 players that are going to play in the World Finals, and this, even if the skill level is much higher like this, is very bad. This is the why it is boring to watch, it just too random. I like to see if someone is able to be in top4 3 times in a row, or better if 2 players are able to make top4 3 times in a row at the same time. another thing is to watch how someone is playing pretty efficiently is disgusting boring to watch. Koreans are the best at it and it isnt koreans guilt, it is blizzard. I watched wc3 before sc2 and I had zero problems with mass koreans/chinese players, I loved them. We dont have regions tournaments and I have no clue why. WCS 2012 EU/KR/AM were by far the best tournament that I have watched. | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:24 nottapro wrote: ... ... A casual introductionary multiplayer unranked newbie mode. you make many solid points through out your post. no RTS game has been able "to slowly introduce players to the game mechanics" it is a "baptism of fire" in every RTS game i've played. its just brutal moving to competitive multiplayer. but, i've not played every RTS game. if you know of some RTS games that do a nice job of providing a smooth low slope learning curve into competitive multiplayer please list them? so far SC2 has done a better job than any other RTS i've played. but its still rough. i've indoctrinated 4 people... they are now part of the cult. but, they are in the minority.. as i'd expect...my friends mom is a very competitive scrabble player. i'll never convince her to play. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:29 jinorazi wrote: fix arcade for casuals, as in allow real open lobby so people can play new maps and not the same shit like the past 3 years. no need to make "casual ladder", unranked is enough. i'd prefer having unranked allow league/skill choosing though. above all they really need to rework the game so its micro focused like marine vs bane instead of spell based like force field, and a lot less emphasis on counter/unit composition. micro should be able to overcome some counter relationship like marine vs lurker, marine vs bane, vulture/mine vs dragoon. the shredder unit idea (and colossus) is the epitome of how sc2 units should not be. I agree with the reworking of the game to make it better to win with micro. But you are totally wrong about unranked being enough. Unranked is only useful for already experienced players to feel less pressure. It doesn't matter if casual players play ranked or unranked, because their rank isn't the problem. The enormous overwhelming learning curve is identical in both modes, unranked provides nothing for casuals in that regard. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:35 nottapro wrote: I agree with the reworking of the game to make it better to win with micro. But you are totally wrong about unranked being enough. Unranked is only useful for already experienced players to feel less pressure. It doesn't matter if casual players play ranked or unranked, because their rank isn't the problem. The enormous overwhelming learning curve is identical in both modes, unranked provides nothing for casuals in that regard. i guess "noobified" league, where every step has a tutorial on it can be done to help new players (can be done just vs comp or something, even i started with comp stomp games in bw) but for some people, the nature of 1v1 just isnt it for them and revert to 2v2 or 3v3 or ums. so instead of trying to cater the normal sc2 to those having hard time, give them a better alternative; arcade. and since arcade right now is total shit, imo, just add in a open lobby as it was in the past so people know if theres a new game open with people in it. instead like right now, see a new map and no ones in, you'd need to wait forever to fill up, if it ever does. i dont know if its the system or the players but current "open lobby" system makes it look like no one plays. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote: My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2. First reaction: It looks boring. Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it. Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units. If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2! This lasts for about 6-7 months until Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead. And its over. This is mostly accurate. But, if so, I don't see the problem with it. Many people don't play any game for too long. Once done with it, you move on. SC is no different. I'm just happy that they chose to play the game for a year or so and got a lot of fun out of it. People who stick around, like myself and a good many others on TL, are the exception not the rule. I think, as others have mentioned, that friends should also be introducted to team games. There is a lot of fun to be had in playing team format - especially arranged with rl friends or people you've met up with through SC2. I enjoy 1v1 but the most fun I have in SC2 is playing 2v2 and 3v3 and 4v4 with my rl mates with whom I have been friends with for many years, and with whom I played BW when we were all at Uni together. SC2 does not have to be all about 1v1 and ladder. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
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TanKLoveR
Venezuela838 Posts
On September 25 2013 07:16 Erik.TheRed wrote: IMO the current/next generation of gamers is getting so coddled that it's absurd. I guess that's what happens in a hyper-competitive market where the most accessible games get the most money (even if they have the least depth). I'm not even a BW player but I bet those guys are probably cringing when they see some of the comments & complaints from today's gamers. Earlier I was reading a post on the Hearthstone forums about someone not wanting to continue playing the game because they were too intimidated by the "daily quests" which required them play decks that they were not comfortable with in order to earn BONUS gold. It struck me that they seemed to be completely missing the point of the game-- why even bother spending time with this activity if you aren't going to open your mind a little bit or try and take on the slightest semblance of challenge? How is that experience any better than doing some other passive activity like watching a movie, listening to music, or reading a book? At least you might inadvertently discover something new or broaden your horizons with those things. Good luck getting any of that from farmville though. Bahahahaha wow I can't say I'm surprised that's how people who play hearthstone behave, after all they are most likely WoW players. WoW players are used to QQ A LOT, blizzard bends over then nerfs everything so it's as easy as humanly possible and people get a gold star for doing nothing, one of the main reasons why I quit WoW many years ago. You are completely right, it is ridiculous that gamers now days behave like this, I laugh when people who play SC2 say stuff like "I play LoL to have fun and I have SC2 as my "hardcore" game  " like please, SC2? Hardcore? Right... Back in the day I used to scoff at people who played CS 1.4 because BW was just incredibly more complex, I played CS for a while when it was the cool thing to play but I got bored after a year and went back to playing BW. Gamers now days are just spoiled, games have been zyngafied so if they can't get everything for doing nothing they whine. I never played Dota back in the day, I didn't like WC3 so I didn't care for that scene, while everyone was crazy over WC3 because it looked better than BW graphics wise I couldn't understand what was going on in game so I stuck with BW. But I can see now that Dota was incredibly complex and it still is with Dota 2, I wish Valve would make an RTS, I can tell they wouldn't noobify it because they want to appeal to my mom. Until then I might start playing BW again on ICCUP but god I haven't played in like 5 years, I have to practice quite a bit so I will have to make time just to read up on the current meta game and increase my most likely current 10 apm  should be fun . | ||
Falling
Canada11265 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: But! Uh... Well... Uh... Damn.... Accurate beyond reason I'm just imagining what it would be like trying to get them to play Broodwar.... That's easy. LAN games. 2v2v2v1. The easiest to teach are those that have never played SCBW before because they don't have really bad habits. (All micro and only 12 scv's.) I teach them basic army composition. All tanks for Terran, anti-air and something to buffer the tank front. Then teach them about cloack detection. I used to coddle them with slower speeds, but now Fastest is the only option and I'm already teaching them how to hop back and forth between armies and base using hotkeys. After only 3 sessions the newbies with 30 apm are macro kings compared to the 30 apm players that have played from the beginning, but never learned to macro. (This is true even of one person who I taught that had never touched an RTS in their life- they wondered if it was similar to Call of Duty.) From there it all about branching out into whatever unit they think is fun. Units feel powerful intrinsically so even a newbie can have fun rolling around with a control group of tanks, or being all sneaky with a control group of cloaked wraiths. And because they are always playing with an ally in a multi-front war, it's great fun for all as the one side becomes more powerful then the other before getting crushed. Seriously. 2v2v2v2 is waaaaay superious to 4v4. Don't know why that is the default option on Blizzard's ladder. I've taught probably 10+ people to play BW and pretty much everyone would play in a LAN game if we had more time between work. But if we were looking at success rate via ladder it of course would be 0%. Not one is remotely interested in laddering 1v1. But even this July we had a 7 person lan which was hilariously fun. | ||
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Zadien
Canada77 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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